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Author Topic: Stoopid Madness  (Read 6966 times)
SummenSaugen
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« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2003, 08:20:20 pm »

I have not had problems with Stax unless they get a first turn Sphere, which is not as common as most would like to believe.  However, I know that iLL_dawg, the other advocate of Stoopid Madness, has been testing a pair of Hurkyl's Recalls in his sideboard for Stax, TnT, and Mask.  According to him, they've been great.
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Mith
Guest
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2003, 09:56:01 pm »

Looks like Madness made top 4 at Origins twice (same guy, same deck). I'll admit, the speed of this deck is really impressive...but I find that the deck's speed can be really conditional. If I draw a diamond early, the deck smashes face...easy second or third turn kills. However, without that initial diamond, the deck can be short on steam.

I think the deck can be great vs. a lot of the field...but I would seriously fear Keeper's four StP...
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suicide_slushy
Guest
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2003, 10:25:13 pm »

I tried to play this deck and I can see no reason to play this over TNT.  It's quite normal to lay a first turn 4/4 or 6/6, but TNT can be almost as fast, yet still manages to have staying power in welder and survival.  Not to mention that when TNT lays fat it typically gets to keep it's hand.  The majority of games went something like me playing a wurm, losing my hand, my opponent removing it, laying down something like a tog to block it, or laying a tangle wire.  In all these cases I lost because I just wasn't able to recover.  It got much worse after SBing when more removal came in.  If anyone could sum up to me what this deck has over say TNT besides having to come across workshops I would appreciate it.
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2003, 11:22:29 pm »

The reasons to play Stoopid Madness are very simple and are numerous.

But first, let's talk strategy.  TnT is designed to toss some fat out real early, and if needed it plops down survival and starts an engine, or a welder for recursion.  Madness is a lot like stompy in that it's really not aiming for a system so much as smashing your face as early as possible.  Adam and I have playtested the TnT/Madness matchup extensively and Madness typically comes out on top based on
A) More explosive starts
B) More numerous 'engine' cards
C) All around better guys
D) Removal that doesn't cost six

Those four things hold true in all other aggro matchups as well.  Madness' speed also comes into play against combo and control.  Against combo, Madness can actually outrace it a good portion of the time.  It's still not a great matchup by any means, but it has a much better chance than TnT.  Also, it excels against control, with four uncounterable draw engines, much earlier harder to stop monsters, and guys that can block morphling and ophidian all day long.  Not to mention there is not a common buyback red spell in everybody's sideboard that kills all of madness' scary guys, nor is there another common red spell that takes down two regardless of who they are.

What it boils down to is
A) Greater resiliancy
B) Fatter fat
C) Much more explosive start
If you've been having difficulty running out of gas because your hand only contained LED and Wurm for good stuff, you shouldn't have kept that hand.  As a rule, unless I have an 'engine' card in hand, I won't keep it.  Engine cards are essentially either draw sevens, bazaars, or castable oaths.

One more thing I'd like to point out is that TnT is played and endorsed by hundreds, and it has existed for a very long time and has been under scrutiny by excellent players just as long.  Stoopid Madness is relatively new (March of this year) and has not been under any more scrutiny (besides that of myself and Adam) than "Oh yeah, I tooled around with that deck online, it was awesome!" (with a few exceptions, I'll grant that.)  Give Madness a couple of months of support to iron out any bugs and it'll be a top contender.

On the topic of the Origins Madness build:
I kind of like it, although I do not support removing Oath from the build.  With off color moxen, it comes down early, and the moxen are good for first turn dogs anyhow.  I had been testing the maindecked Riftstone Portal for a while now, and it's good to see I'm not the only one supporting it.  The build presented in Origins was, as Adam said, metagamed more towards beating Stax and Tog, and is therefore obviously different than our planning (for a more varied metagame.)  The tweaks Adam and I have given the deck over the course of its existance have been to strengthen the deck against decks with removal for the most part, so "remove your wurm/block with tog/whatever" doesn't stop the deck as Suicide_Slushey had said.

Great discussions so far guys, good to see the interest in a deck that kicks just as much ass as it is fun to play. (That's a lot, for those of you keeping score at home)
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Ferrismonk
Guest
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2003, 12:21:14 pm »

Hey Guys, I'm the guy who played Madness at Origins.  I just got on TMD, so this is my first post.  I've been reading everything I can about madness for T1, and I did NOT play it in T2.  I don't think it helps anyway because they play so different.  Anyhow, here's the reasons that I went with the build I did.

I didn't like the Oath or the draw 7s because I usually just ended up discarding them.  Even so, they are not a threat.  I wanted to make the deck as fast and explosive as possible.  The only dead cards I ever had were occasionally a couple madness spells I pitched to save a mongrel.  The burn is SOOO useful.  It stops welders and a whole slew of other nasties (i.e. negator, shadows, enchantresses, etc.).  I also had to use it as a win condition while in a stasis/kismet lock.  I just drew my library, then sacked a couple tapped diamonds to madness a whole bunch of burn at him.     

I played this deck in the Thursday, Saturday, and Sunday tournaments and got 3rd place in every one.  I only lost to one person in each tournament.  On Thursday I lost to GAT, I had 3 maze of iths out and was topdecking burn with 2 bazaars on the table.  He ended up drawing the time walk for the win.  On Saturday, I lost against a worldgorger dragon deck.  I won the first, he went off the 2nd at one life when I had a slew of creatures out, game 3 I disrupted his combo with a ray of revelation, but he floated 2 to animate for the draw (I had to explain how he lost all his permanents permanately   Game 4 was similar to game 2.  He went off when he was at 1 life with me a slew of creatures.  

The last deck I lost to was a nasty reanimator deck, which won the Sunday tournament.  Game one I hard cast turn 2 roar, then flashaback turn 3 roar with anger in graveyard.  He got first turn Akroma.  First strike killed me.  Game 2 I flew over his penumbra wurm and past his Reya Dawnbringer with Mazes on the table for the win.  Game 3 he swarmed me with Akroma, Penumbra Wurm, Verdant Force, and Phantom Nishoba after stripping my 2 of my 3 Mazes.

The only changes I'd consider to my deck are maybe to remove one tropical island to add one mox sapphire for speed, and replace 2 null rods with 2 ray of revelation in the sideboard.  Combo can be a pain, but ray of revelation wrecks most of them.  What do you guys think?  It's now obvious that madness is a Tier one deck in my opinion.

-Travis-
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2003, 12:40:23 pm »

Ray of Revelation is key.  It's what allows you to beat stupid decks like Rector Trix that think they're cool because they destroy your hand before going off.
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BillTheDuck
Guest
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2003, 02:06:53 pm »

Ferrismonk's Decklist for reference.
Quote
Quote
Top 4 - Travis Lee - Madness
Main Deck
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Arrogant Wurm
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Roar of the Wurm
4x Anger
2x Wonder
4x Fiery Temper
3x Violent Eruption
3x Deep Analysis
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Diamond
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
4x Taiga
4x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest
1x Riftstone Portal
Sideboard:
4x Maze of Ith
3x Blood Moon
4x Artifact Mutation
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Null Rod

I must say I agree with the additional Angers and the cutting of Oath. I think artifact mutation is real good, but should be split 3/3 with ray, because enchantment's are often more important to get rid of. I also like the portal maindeck, that way it doesnt take a sb slot and it isn't really dead in game one (either in play OR in the grave).

Also Ferrismonk, how the hell did you manage a hardcast early Roar. I hope you were using the diamonds correctly.
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2003, 04:33:47 pm »

My guess would be Lotus-Mox-Mox-Land, Land-Roar, Flashback.
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iLL_Dawg
Guest
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2003, 05:27:27 pm »

Glad to see madness doing so well.  I never played it in T2 either, and I knew nothing about the T2 deck when I was throwing it together.  I firmly believe that to be ther reason for most of my success with it.  

I would be hesitant to cut the volcanics down to 2, since they activate both anger and wonder, and I have also been enjoying all of the extra jewelry.  The extra angers and the portal in the main, though, have definately been discussed and deserve further testing.  I don't like the lack of draw-7's, but if it works it works.  

Good job at origins, can't wait to see what madness does at GenCon.  Keep up the good work, guys.

-=ADAM=-

PS. Nick, you are the man.
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Rico Suave
Guest
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2003, 06:54:34 pm »

Quote from: SummenSaugen+July 02 2003,00:22
Quote (SummenSaugen @ July 02 2003,00:22)Give Madness a couple of months of support to iron out any bugs and it'll be a top contender.

To be fair, if it ever becomes popular then people will be more apt to sideboard against it, and then it'll be in the same boat as TnT.  That dramatically cuts down on the resiliency and fatter fat factors (I love that last part).
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Grand Inquisitor
Guest
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2003, 07:09:36 pm »

Quote
Quote To be fair, if it ever becomes popular then people will be more apt to sideboard against it, and then it'll be in the same boat as TnT

actually, its conception was during a time when the metagame was storing up on removal (for tnt, gat & mask) and non-basic hate (gat).  this deck is for real, and its better than tnt for most matchups.
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Ferrismonk
Guest
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2003, 11:12:51 am »

@BillTheDuck
I wouldn't cut the artifact mutations down at all.  They were KEY to my smashing Stax.  Stax is an otherwise VERY difficult matchup.  One of the great things about it is that it is an instant.  Put tangle wire/smokestack on the stack then blow away the offending artifact.  Since there are no longer any counters on it, you no longer have to tap/sacrifice.  Then with anger in the yard, you swing with your saprolings.  If they lay another nasty, just tap/sacrifice your tokens to lay the real fat.  I imagine they might also be key against Masknaught.  I agree that the Rays need to be upped, I think I'll take out 2 null rods and add 2 rays.  They are needed against trix, oath, enchantress, etc.

@ Grant Inquisitor
This shows a lot of resiliancy over the other decks you mentioned. Discard helps you, not hurts you.  Destroying a single artifact like mask doesn't ruin you.  Non basic hate actually can [/I]help you.  The increase in removal you are talking about isn't really that big of a deal.  You simply are too fast.  If I'm drawing 3 cards a turn (bazaar), you simply cannot counter/remove everything I throw at you.

Basically I think that SummunSaugen had it right:
What it boils down to is
A) Greater resiliancy
B) Fatter fat
C) Much more explosive start

-Travis-
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Matt The Great
Guest
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2003, 11:55:32 am »

Quote
Quote Put tangle wire/smokestack on the stack then blow away the offending artifact.  Since there are no longer any counters on it, you no longer have to tap/sacrifice.  

I think this is wrong. As I recall, abilities on the stack use "last known information" so you would still have to process them as if the source of the ability was still in play.\n\n

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Rico Suave
Guest
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2003, 12:11:55 pm »

Quote from: Grand Inquisitor+July 02 2003,20:09
Quote (Grand Inquisitor @ July 02 2003,20:09)actually, its conception was during a time when the metagame was storing up on removal (for tnt, gat & mask) and non-basic hate (gat).  this deck is for real, and its better than tnt for most matchups.
I'm not saying it's worse, or that it's bad in anyway.  

I'm just saying, nobody has thought "hey, that Madness deck is gonna kill me, let me SB against it."  

My point is that Madness is resilient to things TnT is weak to, and vice versa.  If Madness were to become a real force in the metagame, I could see things like SB Rack and Ruin turned into SB hosers for Madness which wouldn't work on TnT.  In that case, would Madness still be the better deck?
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Matt The Great
Guest
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2003, 12:26:30 pm »

Why does LED work as a madness outlet? I think (but am not sure) it works because even though you can only play it when you could play an instant, it is still a mana ability and thus you don't have to pass priority to get the mana (because once you pass priority the window for madness expires). Is this correct?

Knowing the rules is awesome.\n\n

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Rando
Guest
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2003, 12:36:26 pm »

Yeah.  LED is wierd.  Just think of it as any other mana source, but you can only use it when you could play an instant. (so you can't sack it to pay for a spell just anounced)

It works as a Madness outlet since you sack it, drop you hand, get the mana immediatly (no stack) and then your madness triggers go on the stack.

You don't get to actually play the madness spells until the next time you would get priority.
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Jet
Guest
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2003, 02:24:59 pm »

A big reason to add a black splash is Cabal Therapy.  It can simply be amazing, it lets you deal with the Mana Drain problem that's been mentioned. And rootwallas or call tokens can feed its flashback.

Psychatogs can be hard to cast, but are good if you can do that.(OMG LOL PSYCHATOG IS GOOD ONCE HES IN PLAY!!1!) This deck can build up a huge graveyard by mid-game, but you won't have a hand to feed to the tog. Will probably drop him for something easier to cast.

Will has been solid, not as amazing as it would seem in this deck, due to problems with getting 3 mana for a non-madness spell when it would matter.

Oath was bad for me, very hard to cast. Was just a dead card in so many games that it wasn't worth keeping.

This deck really doesn't want normal spells, it wants more cards that you can 'mill' with bazaar and get a use out of.

I've had this deck around since before ONS as my pet 'fun' t1 deck because of its potental for explosive early turns that just win. nice to see it getting some attention.
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BillTheDuck
Guest
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2003, 04:30:50 pm »

We just spent the afternoon gauntlet testing and we proxied up this deck to see its matchups. These are the basic results:

Keeper: Unfavorable (the stp's and FoW's are big, and the wastelands and mana drains aren't nice either)

Hulk: Ownage (this deck gets under togs and just wins. There isn't much they can do if you have an active Bazaar. Beware of Force though, play around it.)

TnT: Slightly favorable (Your engine gets going faster, and you have bigger guys. Can go either way)

Eba: Unfavorable (same exact thing as keeper)

Thats all we got around to testing. We had an Urphid, Stax and a Rector trix there, but we had a lot of decks to run through the gauntlet, and as none of the people in the group actually have the cards for this deck, it wasnt a priority.

For the testing we took out Oaths.
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hulk3rules
Guest
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2003, 04:58:08 pm »

Quote from: BillTheDuck+July 03 2003,17:30
Quote (BillTheDuck @ July 03 2003,17:30)Hulk: Ownage (this deck gets under togs and just wins. There isn't much they can do if you have an active Bazaar. Beware of Force though, play around it.)
Keep in mind we were only playing un-sided games.  I would imagine that pernicious deed is huge against madness
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codecap
Guest
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2003, 07:10:20 pm »

I have seen the same results with oath being a dead card.  Too many times i have had to hold it because of no 4th mana and it just getting discarded to the bazaar engine.
     I also have to agree with the artifact mutations versus stax.  They can be a beast kill a lock card, get critter to attack and permanents to tap/sack.  It can swing a losing match the other way.
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Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2003, 07:20:11 pm »

Quote from: Matt The Great+July 03 2003,09:55
Quote (Matt The Great @ July 03 2003,09:55)
Quote
Quote Put tangle wire/smokestack on the stack then blow away the offending artifact.  Since there are no longer any counters on it, you no longer have to tap/sacrifice.  

I think this is wrong. As I recall, abilities on the stack use "last known information" so you would still have to process them as if the source of the ability was still in play.
It is wrong, but his point remains.  Getting 3 or 4 1/1s absolutely wrecks stax and then it doesn't matter how much you tap or sac - you'll always have more perms than the stax player.  4 Is key.  esp in a deck like this.  

Steve
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Maxx Matt
Guest
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2003, 03:02:07 am »

the control match-up could be improved only by adding to madness a bit of counterspells, only to try to stop their key spells. Without them, the deck is too exposed to the control player's strategy, as every draw spell he can think to cast, every removals and of course every Cunning wish and YAwgmoth's Will.

IMHO, a version that perform in a more solid and resilient way, most of all in this specific match-up, should pack, FoW and LOgics, keeping out the Lion's Eye Diamond.  it is very explosive too, but don't let the control player to cast spells without an fear.
 

my 2 cents



----------
Maxx Matt
---------
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Ferrismonk
Guest
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2003, 01:40:38 pm »

If you put the smokestack on the stack, then destroy it with artifact mutation, the smokestack ability still resolves, but since there are no longer any counters on smokestack, you don't sacrifice anything.  The stack looks like this:

1. Beginning of upkeep, triggered ability of smokestack goes on stack (Sacrifice a permanent for each soot counter on smokestack)
2. Destroy smokestack, get 4 1/1 saprolings
3. Triggered ability of smokestack resolves, so you sacrifice a permanent for each soot counter on smokestack, since there are no longer any counters on it, you do not sacrifice anything.

Btw, the fact artifact mutation was a house was pointed out by last year's Gencon T1 champ, Matt Smith.  Thanks!

-Travis-
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The Blob
Guest
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2003, 01:48:45 pm »

The same thing applies to Tangle Wire.  I'm surprised all you Stax players didn't know that because every time I've seen the deck played, they used welder to swap wires every turn any not tap anything.
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2003, 02:13:09 pm »

@Maxx Matt:

That's not a good strategy at all.  The whole point of the deck is throwing cards away, and all you'd be doing is turning it into a really poor aggro-control deck that would lose the important counterwars even if you didn't play the big fatties in hand because you're holding crap back.  The point is to smash face before things like Yawg Win and friends become too much of a problem.
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Nova
Guest
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2003, 02:54:36 pm »

To end the disinformation regarding smokestack/tangle wire being destroyed in response to their triggered ability:

Quote
Quote Q: What happens with Tangle Wire's effect if it is destroyed while its effect is on the stack? Say it's my upkeep, and I destroy the Tangle Wire in response to the effect. Do I tap permanents for how many fade counters it remembers was on it, or do I tap nothing, because there's no longer any counters on it (because it's in the graveyard)?

Thanks for your time,
Levi

A: Levi,

You tap the number of counters that were on it just before it left play (rule 402.6).

- Sheldon


Quote
Quote 402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of its source (the card on which it's printed) as a pseudospell on the stack. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any spell, activated ability, or triggered ability that references information about the source will check that information when the ability resolves, or will use the source's last known information if it's no longer in play.

This can be summed up as Matt The Great and Smmenen were right.
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Ferrismonk
Guest
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2003, 04:06:12 pm »

Well, that doesn't seem quite right, but I can't argue with the facts.  Thanks for the reference to the rule number.

-Travis-
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iLL_Dawg
Guest
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2003, 06:09:48 pm »

I think that the whole discussion of what happens if you kill a wire/stack in response to its trigger is pretty much a moot point considering how artifact mutation would be played in this deck.  Just play it EOT to avoid the whole rules session that would undoubtedly pop up if you give it the chance.  If I wanted to be doing things that stretch the rules to the point where my opponant has to call a judge, I'd be playing FEB instead.

I like the idea of artifact mutation in the board, and I'm going to be testing it along with Hurkyl's for artifact-heavy matchups.  I just wish it was better in more matchups than just Stax.  

As I see it, it's good to have point and blanket removal for the stuff that my threats can't touch (i.e. stuff without a power and toughness), now if only there were some blanket enchantment removal with flashback.  I wish Recoup was a more viable option. . .

Well, more testing definately needs to happen.  For reference, this is what the deck looks like right now wothout the oaths:

Bombs Over Baghdad
Created by: iLL_DaWg

The Funky Beats
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Roar of the Wurm

Mad Phat & Supa' Fly
3 Anger *
2 Wonder

This Tastes Like Burning
3 Fiery Temper
2 Violent Eruption

I Make Drawing Fun
3 Deep Anal
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Ancestral *
1 Wheel
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Frantic Search

You Da' Mana
3 wooded foothills
3 trop
3 volc
3 tiaga

Lotuses (Loti?)
4 LED
1 black lotus

Bling
1 jet
1 sapphire
1 ruby
1 emerald
1 pearl
1 diamond
1 sol ring

* = slots where stuff is being tested in place of the oaths

Thanks for all of your interest and feedback

-=ADAM=-
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BillTheDuck
Guest
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2003, 10:55:16 pm »

I don't see what the point of running hurkyl's at all if you can support mutation. Recall is temporary, and it doesnt turn the tides on all the tap/sac tricks of stax. The only other deck either of them is good against is tnt, which mutation is plenty good in. I would say more so that recall.
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iLL_Dawg
Guest
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2003, 12:52:16 am »

Recall into a draw-7 is pretty good, it makes them pick up their board and throw ir away.  Recall into a windfall nets me bunches of cards.  I can also do stupid mana tricks with it, pump a mongrel for the kill, or just stall out workshop.dec for a couple of turns.  It's there for its cersitility, and because of the fact that if you pair it with other cards in the deck it can be a board-sweeper / game breaker.  Mutation only takes care of 1 threat.  There's definately reasons to try them both out.  We'll see what proves most effective through testing.

-=ADAM=-
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