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Author Topic: Stoopid Madness  (Read 6973 times)
Ferrismonk
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« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2003, 06:37:02 am »

The reason the timing rules are important against Stax is that usually they have you tapped down.  The only window to cast the mutation are during your upkeep after the wire/smokestack are on the stack.

BTW, how has the ancestral been treating you?  I found that I usually just ended up discarding it, but I'd like to see how it works for you.

-Travis-
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BillTheDuck
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« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2003, 10:07:09 am »

Sorry about that adam, I was one of the big supporters of Ancestral Recall. Reread my post as if it was about Hurkyl's Recall
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Siral
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« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2003, 07:43:19 pm »

Today in Bologna, Italy 1st and 2nd place was madness deck...(me 1st naturally   )


My decklist is:

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Roar of the Wurm
4 Circular Logic
4 Force of Will
2 Cunning Wish
3 Deep Analisys
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Wonder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Regrowth

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
7 SoLoMoxen
4 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Forest


Sideboard
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Naturalize
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Berserk
1 Fire/Ice
1 Gilded Drake
1 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Misdirection
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Bind

My matches was

Vs Fattie Deck BGW (Juzam, Specter etc etc) 2-0
Vs Monogreen 2-0
Vs Mirror Match (the guy who took 2nd place) 1-1
Vs Neo-Atog 0-2 (insane starts for him like...ancestral, regrowth ancestral, yawgmoth ancestral wish ancestral....!!!)
Vs Mask UB 2-0

Top8
Vs Neo Atog 2-1
Vs Tnt 2-1 (wins all the post side matches)
Vs Mirror Match 2-1

I dont think this can be called stoopid madness since it has more control elements (8 counter and 2 wish)

But it can provide a lot of pressure and deep analisys are mvp of the deck

Give it a try

(This deck without analisys and with 3 arrogant wurm won some mini on magic-league)
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iLL_Dawg
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« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2003, 05:50:03 am »

@BillTheDuck: Dude, I knew which recall you were talking about.  That's why I tried to defend Hurkyl's recall in this deck.  So far in testing both recalls have been good to me, and I'm happy with the oathless version I'm running.  

In the stax matchup, both hurkyl's and artifact mutation have been great.  Hurkyl's into a windfall  wins games.  Especially when the hurkyl's is EOT after a meditate.  Broken things happen.  

@siral: It's great to see madness consistantly doing well at tournaments (even if it runs counters).  Keep up the good work over there.

-=ADAM=-
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Hyperion
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terraformer51
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« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2003, 09:44:07 pm »

I've been playing Madness quite a bit lately, and thought it'd be worthwhile to share the list I've tested with.  It's slightly different than that that I ran to a T4 finish at the first TMD ToC (heh), and is based heavily on 'Stoopid Madness' and Travis Lee's (ferrismonk's?) decklist that placed well at Origins.

//NAME: Virtual Insanity
//  Creatures
        4 Basking Rootwalla
        4 Wild Mongrel
        4 Arrogant Wurm
        3 Roar of the Wurm
//  Incarnations  
        3 Anger
        2 Wonder  
//  Utility
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        4 Fiery Temper
        3 Careful Study
        3 Deep Analysis
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
//  Mana
        4 Wooded Foothills
        4 Tropical Island
        2 Volcanic Island
        1 Forest
        4 Taiga
        4 Lion's Eye Diamond
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Sol Ring

The most important change I've made to the deck is to add Careful Study. I've tested quite a bit with it and am happy to report that it's working very well and will probably be a mainstay in my build. One of the problems I was having with earlier Madness builds was the apparent overreliance on getting a Bazaar active; Careful Study provides a similar function as Bazaar and is especially useful in the early game where one can't afford to drop Bazaar and hinder mana development for a turn. Careful Study was a crucial component of Type II Madness builds because it let the Madness player keep opening hands that it otherwise wouldn't be able to, and my experience with it thus far in Type I Madness has yielded similar results. It makes the deck run more smoothly and the draw engine more redundant. Careful Study may be less explosive than other options, especially the likes of Wheel of Fortune and Windfall, but explosiveness isn't the deck's main weakness - consistency is - and I think this card better addresses that weakness. I'm curious to hear other players' feedback on this card, whether it be from their own testing results or just speculation on my choice to run it. I would run 4 but I've had trouble finding room for another, and it's a card that I generally don't want to see in multiples.

Other Madness builds run a lone Riftstone Portal and some side in additional Portals. I tried it and am of the opinion that it's too much of a gimmick to be effective. Running only 1 is random, especially without ways to tutor for it, and it's hard to justify devoting valuable SB space to it. With 1 Forest, 4 fetchlands, LED, Lotus, and the full complement of on-color Moxen this list should be fairly resilient to Blood Moon already. This is the most consistent base I've found thus far.

I agree with an earlier statement on this thread that Madness is one of the best aggro decks in the format right now and I would very much like to continue a discussion on its finer aspects. I have recorded even- to favorable results against decks like Keeper (combo and noncombo), Stax, and Stacker with this list, and have gone about 50-50 with Hulk in a few pre-SB games - Wonder is KEY in this matchup. By far the most difficult matchup I've encountered thus far is Rector Trix/Tendrils, because I run little to no disruption and it can be difficult to race them. Non-combo Keeper is still tough as well; I am not entirely sure of the validity of my results yet in this matchup.
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Matt The Great
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« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2003, 04:32:53 pm »

I'll start off by saying that this is probably the best aggro deck in the format right now. I say 'probably' because there might be something of which I'm just not thinking.

Careful Study is WAY better than all the draw7s except maybe Wheel. Timetwister fucks your graveyard, Windfall is too weak, and they all cost too much mana, and they all refill your opponent's hand. Frantic Search, while oh-so-excellent in 1.x's u/g madness, sucks here because you'll rarely have three lands to untap.

Yeah, Wonder is NECESSARY to beat Hulk. You just cannot win on the ground.

On the whole I've been pretty unimpressed with Basking Rootwalla. It only really pulls its weight against non-Tog control and weenie aggro (Sligh, Suicide...decks you should already beat). I could see cutting one or even two of them for extra slots.
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Hyperion
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terraformer51
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« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2003, 08:04:10 pm »

Basking Rootwalla is just too good in conjunction with the rest of the deck to not run 4; especially Bazaar, LED - two of the most potentially broken, yet also conditional cards in T1 Madness - and Careful Study. Unless the card that'd replace it also has amazing synergy with these cards I am not sure about cutting any of them, and I can't think of any such cards at the moment.
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Rebel428
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« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2003, 01:56:09 pm »

Decklist that placed 4th at the T1 event at Worlds:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Careful Study
4 Circular Logic
2 Cunning Wish
2 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
1 Time Walk

1 Wonder
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Roar of the Wurm
4 Wild Mongrel
1 Anger
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

1 Wheel of Fortune

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Fire/Ice
1 Gilded Drake
1 Island
3 Naturalize
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Rack and Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Waterfront Bouncer

I personally like this version much more than the ones posted so far in this thread - it's closer to Fever's original version posted several months ago that was ignored due to GAT's dominance, and I've always felt it was better without cards like Oath of Scholars, LED, or Survival, going for a more aggro-control style.

Thoughts?\n\n

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Fever
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« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2003, 02:16:01 pm »

First of all, this is a vastly different deck than the one i was working on months ago. Stoopid Madness is an entirely different deck, and admittedly better than my attempt to bring the Extended version to T1(though it was pretty good).


As for the above decklist, while it seems solid overall, there are a few glaring errors. First, how does he expect to get Wonder or Anger into the grave with any sort of consistency when he only runs one copy of each? I could understand if he were running Intuition, but he does not, and even the insane draw this deck is capable of is no guarantee that he will draw into either. The other thing i dont like is Cunning Wish, i really dislike this card in aggro or aggro-control, and this deck runs very light on mana anyway. Remember, you dont have to have an answer for everything when you are bulldozing people. Lastly, i wonder where the last Mox is? This must have been a case of not owning the card, because i cant think of a reason to exclude it.


I dont want to sound overly harsh, because the decklist shows a strong understanding of the fundamentals of deckbuilding, but i think some minor tweaks would go a long way.
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Rebel428
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« Reply #69 on: August 11, 2003, 02:25:13 pm »

I sorta agree, but I like the general idea behind this list better than other ones that have been posted earlier in this thread.  

I see your point about Cunning Wish, but I kinda disagree - I just feel a bit naked if I run a blue-based deck without them.  

About ways to get Anger and Wonder:  I'd imagine that he usually got them into the graveyard using Bazaars.  I do agree that trying to squeeze in an Intuition or two would be a good idea.\n\n

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Fever
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« Reply #70 on: August 11, 2003, 02:37:15 pm »

Yeah, i understand what his plan was, im just saying that its not nearly good enough. Personally, i dont get running burn or counters in this deck at all. It just seems like straight aggro-combo to me. Here is what i would run:

Spells (17)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Deep Analysis
3 Careful Study
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Roar of the Wurm
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

Creatures (20)
2 Wonder
2 Anger
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla

Mana (23)
1 Sol Ring
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Taiga\n\n

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Kheoinn
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« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2003, 05:53:24 pm »

What is the reaction with Frantic Search and Madness?

Why is Windfall not included?
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Rico Suave
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« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2003, 06:20:08 pm »

Quote from: Kheoinn+Aug. 11 2003,18:53
Quote (Kheoinn @ Aug. 11 2003,18:53)What is the reaction with Frantic Search and Madness?

Why is Windfall not included?
You cast Frantic Search, you draw 2, then discard 2.  The replacement ability of Madness takes the Madness card out of the game.  Then you finish resolving Frantic Search, and untap lands.  Then you receive priority, and you do your Madness with the untapped lands from Frantic Search.

No Windfall because of no space.  It's a draw-7, but a very bad one.
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Hyperion
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terraformer51
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« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2003, 06:23:01 pm »

Quote
Quote I personally like this version much more than the ones posted so far in this thread - it's closer to Fever's original version posted several months ago that was ignored due to GAT's dominance, and I've always felt it was better without cards like Oath of Scholars, LED, or Survival, going for a more aggro-control style.

Thoughts?

I tested and wasn't happy with Oath or Survival either, but LED is what makes Madness viable in T1. Madness is a better deck than TnT right now because it is blazingly fast, and LED is a major reason for that. This guy's list is interesting but also a lot slower than a build like Summersaugen's, ill_dawg's, ferrismonk's or my own. I would have to test it to say for certain but I feel as though countermagic will just make it a bad aggro/control deck rather than a good aggro/combo deck.

Fever touched on the other points that I would have, which is 1) all the random 1-of's with no way to tutor for them and 2) the use of Cunning Wish. Madness usually taps out (or nearly so) every turn and Cunning Wish is both expensive and reactive. But again, this is a more control-oriented version of Madness so maybe it's viable in this person's list. In a more aggressive version Cunning Wish would likely be terrible.

Squee is something I tried but ended up not using. While it's insane with Bazaar and decent as Careful Study fodder it's a dead draw the rest of the time. The last two lists posted on this thread are noticeably lacking in targeted removal (i.e. Fiery Temper), which I feel is a must. It makes sure you clobber aggro of any sort and ensures you don't get rolled by a Withered Wretch; which will happen if it's not dealt with soon after it hits. I have tested builds without the targeted removal and not being able to deal with anything makes it a more fragile deck. Plus, burn speeds up the kill as well, and is easily played via madness off LED, Mongrel, Study, and Bazaar.

Quote
Quote What is the reaction with Frantic Search and Madness?

You cast Frantic Search, discard appropriate Madness cards, untap lands and can pay said Madness costs before passing priority (I think that's what you were asking).

Quote
Quote Why is Windfall not included?

Because it's medicore. The only draw-7 even worth considering is Wheel of Fortune, and even then I wouldn't play it over 4 Careful Study, 1 Ancestral, and at least 3 Deep Analysis for draw.

Overall, the important thing to keep in mind is that the World's list is fundamentally different from other Madness builds posted on this thread, because of its noticeable control element. Therefore, a direct comparison with the other lists isn't that meaningful. I don't think it's the best route to take with Madness but you can't argue with his results. Things I do like about his list are the 4 Careful Studies, and I may test some of his SB cards (in particular, Waterfront Bouncer and Pyrostatic Pillar).\n\n

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Kheoinn
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« Reply #74 on: August 11, 2003, 09:15:13 pm »

I understand the windfall reasoning, but why would Frantic Search not be included?

If I were to build this deck, my build would be very close to Fever's "sample" build, except without squees. +1 Frantic Search, +1 Careful Study, +2 Fiery Temper, possibly.

I can see that, with just recall and time walk as power, this deck would function reasonably well powerless. If I have the time, I'm going to try a powerless build, and I'll tell you how I do.
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Hyperion
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terraformer51
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« Reply #75 on: August 11, 2003, 09:25:27 pm »

Quote from: Kheoinn+Aug. 11 2003,22:15
Quote (Kheoinn @ Aug. 11 2003,22:15)I understand the windfall reasoning, but why would Frantic Search not be included?

If I were to build this deck, my build would be very close to Fever's "sample" build, except without squees. +1 Frantic Search, +1 Careful Study, +2 Fiery Temper, possibly.

I can see that, with just recall and time walk as power, this deck would function reasonably well powerless. If I have the time, I'm going to try a powerless build, and I'll tell you how I do.
With LED and artifact mana Madness actually doesn't run that many lands, so Frantic Search isn't that great. It's really just a bad Careful Study.

Don't forget that Moxen and Lotus are fairly essential, it's not just Ancestral and Time Walk.

My current build is the same as the list I posted above almost two weeks ago, except -1 Anger +1 Careful Study. At the Lincoln tournament on Saturday I came to the conclusion that while Anger is great, it's not always needed and that having additional draw/madness outlets was more necessary. Between testing and tournament play I've played a lot with it and have been pleased with its results.\n\n

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SummenSaugen
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« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2003, 12:28:22 am »

A bad careful study that's free and allows you to active a Bazaar more than once in a given turn.
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Hyperion
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terraformer51
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« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2003, 06:04:48 am »

Rewind is a "free" counterspell, but do you see anyone running that? No, because you need 4 mana before it becomes free. The same reasoning applies to Frantic Search. It doesn't help you smooth out your opening draws and/or dig for lands early on when you need them, and as I've already stressed Madness runs a relatively low number of lands as it is. If I have 3 mana and a Bazaar in play, chances are I'm in good shape already and using it again is a nice trick but nothing more than that. There is very little, if any, reason to run it over Careful Study.\n\n

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SummenSaugen
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« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2003, 12:03:51 am »

Odd as this may sound, as you remove land for off color moxen, it becomes more viable.  It's just a way to make Bazaar tap twice, and do something useful in the process.  Sometimes, you topdeck it the normal, draw phase topdeck way.  Then it's even better.
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Ric_Flair
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« Reply #79 on: September 03, 2003, 05:23:34 pm »

This thread has not been touched since GenCon. Is there any update on the deck after that titanic metagame shift?
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Hyperion
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terraformer51
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« Reply #80 on: September 03, 2003, 05:32:43 pm »

Quote from: Ric_Flair+Sep. 03 2003,18:23
Quote (Ric_Flair @ Sep. 03 2003,18:23)This thread has not been touched since GenCon. Is there any update on the deck after that titanic metagame shift?
Actually, I and a couple other people have been testing it a lot in the last few weeks, and with any luck an in-depth article on Madness will be published on themanadrain.com in the near future . Though the decklist itself hasn't changed much.\n\n

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iLL_Dawg
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« Reply #81 on: September 05, 2003, 03:48:15 am »

The main changes to the deck have occurred in the sideboard.  I change it around before tournaments a lot more than I ever used to, but right now the default board is something like:

3 REB
3 Artifact Mutation
3 Pyrostatic Pilliar
2 Gilded Drake
2 Blood Moon
2 Riftstone portal

and sitting around in case I need them:

3 Ray of Revelation
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Tormod's Crypt

The pilliars in the board have been great, I wish there were some way to throw them into the main.

Since I haven't spoken in this thread in a while, I just wanted to chime in and make it clear that I still firmly believe in running all of the draw-7's in madness.  I run them because they win me games all by themselves.  I have had people scoop to a resolved timetwister.  Yes, they are that cool. . . . Nobody will ever scoop to careful study.  Careful study will never win a game all by itself.  I like winning games, so I will continue to play cards that win games.

I could go on for hours about why I love the draw-7's so much, but I won't.  I'll keep it short.  Here are a couple of the main reasons why these things rock:

1) whenever your opponant is looking at the cards in their hand, they are most likely trying to decide what to do at least 1-2 turns into the future, and they will play according to that plan and how your actions work with or against that plan.  when you force them to throw away those cards and start over with new ones, you definately just took a big ol' dump on those plans.  do this more than once or twice in a turn, and people get all sorts of messed up.  Watch them, it's fun.

2) People don't always get the 7 cards they want.  Especially if they have just tutored or wished for something broken and disgusting.  Odds are, the 7 cards you give them are going to be less scary than the ones they were playing with.  Have you ever seen anyone mulligan? I have.  It means that sometimes they don't like what they see when they fill up their hand with randomness.  Given the threat density and explosiveness of this deck, it is more than likely that any 7 cards happens to cough up will be scarier than the 7 your opponant is looking at accross the table.

3) it's 7 new cards.  At the very worst, that's 7 damage for a mongrel.

4) My timetwister loves me.  Ask anyone in hadley.  I always see anger and wonder off my twister, and usually other ridiculous junk. I think it may have been a YawgWill in a past life, or something like that.  

There are only 2 times when I alter the draw-7 count, I take out the windfall in most control matchups, and I take out the wheel as well in the mirror.  At all other times, they'll be right in there where they should be, winning games for me like it's their job.  And it is.  their job, I mean.

no, really. . .

Hope this helps

-=ADAM=-
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