The return of Fling-A-Tog

[Fever]

Greetings. A while back, i had tried a three color Tog build with red over green, and i was quite happy with it, however the general consensus was that you needed green for Berserk no matter what. I had Fling in my sb, but it doesnt get around blockers the way Berserk does, but against control and combo its just as good. So, with the metagame rapidly adapting to take on the combo menace, i thought the time would be right to take another look at Fling-A-Tog. Here is my current build:

Spells (30)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Duress
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Creatures (6)
4 Psychatog
2 Gorilla Shaman

Mana (24)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Fling
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
1 Gush
2 Energy Flux
1 Smother
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Coffin Purge

I would love to fit in another colored mana source, but the deck is so tight i cant imagine what i would cut. I have already made some concessions in order to incorporate a heavy mana-denial aspect, such as the third Cunning Wish and second Intuition.

So far, the changes have bolstered the combo and control matchups, which is exactly what they are meant to do. Aggro decks really arent much tougher, although i do occasionally miss Berserk in those matchups. The point is, the deck was rolling all forms of aggro, so i dont mind losing a tiny bit of power there to gain ground against the more important decks.

I wont post detailed matchup analysis because, quite frankly, i havent had the time to test against a full gauntlet. I know this type of Tog deck can be viable in the new environment, it just has to be tuned right, and i believe my version is very close.\n\n

[MoreFling]

The first thing that comes to mind as a possible candidate for cutting is the 2nd Merchant Scroll.
Other than that, I'm not sure.

Out of curiosity, what does this have that Hulk doesn't have, apart from the shamans? Should you be running wastes in a deck like this?

[Rakso]

Well, there isn't as much point in running Shamans otherwise, and a good number of the combo aspirants are packing Academy along with the artifact mana overload.

[Fever]

Yeah, Rakso is right (OMG, i just say that??    )

The Shamans and 5 Strips are like a package, i wouldnt run one without the other. You want the advantages this deck has over Hulk(presumably w/red), here you go:

-I run 2 Shamans and a full set of Strips, giving my deck an aspect of mana denial that HULK doesnt have.

-My mana is incredibly smooth. With just 3 colors, i find i never get mana-screwed.


Basically, what HULK has over me is that they can go combo more easily with Berserk over Fling. But that aspect is mostly useful against aggro, which is a good matchup anyway.

Fling will let you kill the combo/control player just as fast, but at the cost of one mana more. Also note that there are a few fun things you can do with it such as Fling your already lethal Tog in response to removal, or during a long Tog mirror where both players have plenty of cards in the grave you dont have to worry about trampling over an opposing Tog, you simply go right for the dome.

[Dante]

Quote (Fever @ July 24 2003,12:19)Yeah, Rakso is right (OMG, i just say that??    )

The Shamans and 5 Strips are like a package, i wouldnt run one without the other. You want the advantages this deck has over Hulk(presumably w/red), here you go:

-I run 2 Shamans and a full set of Strips, giving my deck an aspect of mana denial that HULK doesnt have.

-My mana is incredibly smooth. With just 3 colors, i find i never get mana-screwed.


Basically, what HULK has over me is that they can go combo more easily with Berserk over Fling. But that aspect is mostly useful against aggro, which is a good matchup anyway.

Fling will let you kill the combo/control player just as fast, but at the cost of one mana more. Also note that there are a few fun things you can do with it such as Fling your already lethal Tog in response to removal, or during a long Tog mirror where both players have plenty of cards in the grave you dont have to worry about trampling over an opposing Tog, you simply go right for the dome.

also without green you won't have access to naturalize via Wish or maindeck/sideboard P. Deed.  Seems like those are the other questions (along with Berserk).

Dante

[Fever]

Energy Flux screws Stax worse than Deed does, so i dont see a problem there. I know it doesnt sweep weenies like Deed, but weenie decks are hardly a problem, and if they were i could always sb a Pyroclasm or something similar.

As for Naturalize, there arent many enchantments that i fear except Survival of the Fittest, which is partially taken care of by Coffin Purge. Yes, Bargain is a problem enchantment, but Naturalize does nothing against it since they can just draw in response. I have Pulse as Wishable artifact hate, and i could even add a Rack and Ruin if i wanted, but i find those slots are better off as Energy Flux.

Lets face it, there arent many enchantments that scare this deck, and i have ways to deal with the ones that do: BEB for Blood Moon, REB for B2B, and Coffin Purge to neuter Survival.

[urza's child]

wow I actually really like this deck. There are a few things that it is missing though.

Intuition: With only 1 intuition main deck, is it really worth it? I'd definately go up to 2

Cunning Wish: If you rely on cunning wish to win fast, why do you only run 2? It's also amazing because it gives this deck the answers it needs. IMO this deck needs ALTEAST 3

Fire/Ice: Errr yeah, i find this card necessary to this deck atleast sb. I dont know what I would take out, maybe a coffin purge, but this needs to find its way in.

My suggested changes to the deck:

-1 Merchant Scroll
-1 Fact or Fiction
+1 Cunning Wish
+1 Intuition

Proposed SB changes:

-1 Smother
-1 Coffin Purge
+1 Fire/Ice
+1 Fact or Fiction

If you get the chance to put this deck up against the guantlet i am very interested in the results

[Dante]

Quote (Fever @ July 24 2003,14:31)Energy Flux screws Stax worse than Deed does, so i dont see a problem there. I know it doesnt sweep weenies like Deed, but weenie decks are hardly a problem, and if they were i could always sb a Pyroclasm or something similar.

As for Naturalize, there arent many enchantments that i fear except Survival of the Fittest, which is partially taken care of by Coffin Purge. Yes, Bargain is a problem enchantment, but Naturalize does nothing against it since they can just draw in response. I have Pulse as Wishable artifact hate, and i could even add a Rack and Ruin if i wanted, but i find those slots are better off as Energy Flux.

Lets face it, there arent many enchantments that scare this deck, and i have ways to deal with the ones that do: BEB for Blood Moon, REB for B2B, and Coffin Purge to neuter Survival.

Good points...

Is 1 Intuition enough to get the AK going?

Are 2 cunning Wish enough to get what you need out of the side (1 for Fling....)?

Dante

[PucktheCat]

Fever, I think you are right that the deck loses very little in adding red for green.  Pernicious Deed is a great card, but replaceable as you say.  Shattering Pulse does most of Naturalize's job.  Fling is pretty close to Berserk, although the extra casting cost is an issue.

My question is how much you gain by cutting a color?  You are running only 13 Blue sources which is below what most would find acceptable, I think.  If you run one more Blue source (I don't know what you should cut but I think a Merchant Scroll is a good place to start) you can cut the Island and run two Tropical Islands.  That alone gets you all the green you really need for this deck.  If you really want your island or you are feeling thin on the green mana you can easily add a City of Brass for the third Volcanic and the fourth Sea for a plain Island.  That gives you the same amount of black and red mana, four sources of green (2 fetchable for a total of eight ways to draw it).

Essentially, I think the cost of running green is so low to this deck that even the slight difference between Fling and Berserk are enough to make me run it.  Now if I saw a two color version that could run something remotely similar to Fling or Berserk, that would get some interest from me, but once you go to 3 colors I say: in for a penny, in for a pound.

Leo

[Fever]

Like i said, in an ideal world i could run the second Intuition, third Wish AND a 25th mana source. Unfortunetly, you have to make tough decisions some times.

The two Wishes arent that bad because you dont fetch Fling as often as you might think, its not necessary for you to win. I would still love to find room for it though, and it would probably be the first card to come in if i found anything to cut.

The lone Intuition actually works out alright. Usually, you dont play more than two for one reason: the second Intuition drawn is pretty average. So, if only the first one is great, and you can fetch it with one of your two Scrolls, its not necessary to run a pair. I did test another copy in place of the Fact or Fiction, but ultimately the latter proved to be more useful.

[Dante]

Cutting Green allows definitely adding 4th Underground and wastelands.  I agree, 13 blue might be a little light on the blue.

If you really want a 3rd Wish, just add it as the 61st card.

As for coffin purge, i think peoples testing have shown 1 isn't enough, and 3 is really what you want vs rector anything.

Dante

[Fever]

Firstly, i refuse to run 61 cards, not in a serious deck, i physically cant do it.

Second, about the Purges, i have found two to be enough, although i certainly wouldnt mind a third. Post sb, i have two Purges+Intuition(to fetch them) and i still have Cunning Wish > Stifle. What card in my sb would you cut to fit in the third Purge, thats the real question.

[Dante]

Quote (Fever @ July 24 2003,15:29)Firstly, i refuse to run 61 cards, not in a serious deck, i physically cant do it.

Second, about the Purges, i have found two to be enough, although i certainly wouldnt mind a third. Post sb, i have two Purges+Intuition(to fetch them) and i still have Cunning Wish > Stifle. What card in my sb would you cut to fit in the third Purge, thats the real question.

statistically, it's not that big of a deal (61 vs 60).  It's probably a better option than cutting a Merchant Scroll or FoF.

Depending on the environment (if you see enough Rector/x), I would consider cutting the Gush, Vamp, possibly smother for the 3rd purge.  ...hmm...I might not do it, but those are the cards in your side I'd consider.  Probably Vamp as the first choice.

Dante

[Lord of the Goats]

well, there's a lot of things here i agree with, and a lot that i disagree with... before i start though i'd like to give fair warning that i'm extremely tired so this might be a bit ugly.

things i agree with (sort of):

wastes are amazing, i'm currently running 3 wastes and a strip and have been very happy. in addition, shaman is quite good... although not so much because of it's own power but rather that since pretty much everyone is now running them you need a way to equalize. it's one of those cards that if your opponent plays one you want to be able to play one too... but if they never play one you don't particularly care. at least in the control matchup. it's a bit better in the combo matchup but it doesn't hit the acceleration that you really care about which is ritual.  i think 2 shaman is a bit much.

things i don't agree with:

cutting green. i wouldn't play the deck without deed. period. it just wrecks too much. also, as already mentioned the difference between running 3 and 4 colors is 2 lands, and given your blue count i think you want more blue sources anyway.

i hate your mana base. i really do. i like the strips but 13 blue sources isn't cutting it in my book... i think the lowest i'd ever go is 15+ saphire, which is what i am running to fit wastes in.

1 intuition i would not be comfortable with at all. it's so key against so many things. i'd certianly run the second over a fof or second scroll.

fof has been less than good to me... well, let me rephrase that. it's been decent when i've cast it but given the mana cost and the number of strips floating around i've only cast it when i'm winning anyway. i'm trying to decide wether i should sb fof or deep anal

i've always liked the 3rd wish. it was one of the first tweaks i made and i've been very happy with it. 2 wishes is a bit annoying since you have a lot less flexiblity in how you wish. being able to wish early for reb/removal then get a midgame ancestral/4th ak (with the help of tog or will) and the berserk with the last one has been very good annd provided the necessary gas after the 4th ak has been burned.


and a few minor points and suggestions:

in a tog mirror if your tog it lethal you're better off getting red blast, edict, smother or fire/ice (depending on what you  run) than fling. you could also wish for a mana drain in response to removal just as easily as fling... or fow to make things even easier.

the 4th tog is not necessary. that's where i currently have my shaman... althugh i'm not sure that i'll keep that. either way, there's room there.

i cut gush some time ago. after testing some games against 5 strip/2shaman decks i will say that having some wasteland protection is solid. i'm not sure if it's worth putting it back in but  it's solid.  

i've found 1 purge to be enough against rector combo, and stifle has been terrible (so if you want the 3rd purge that's a good start).

i know i have more to say... but i'm way too tired. nite guys

[MikeR-]

I've been on the other side of the lord's testing and can agree that 1 purge and no stifle is sufficent vs rector combo.

The ability to survive the first wave on threats rector has lets hulk go along way into the late game - where in my opinion it gains much strength since in can wish for purge and just sit there and control until a tog gets lethal.


   also - i think green is a must - the mana base is no issue as i've seen lord's perform amazingly in over 100 playtest/tourney games.  -

thanks my 2 cents.

roche-

[Fever]

@LotG

Thanks for the good response man. Some of the changes you mentioned i had already been considering, such as the 3 Tog/1 Shaman config along with the second Intuition over FoF(which is still being tested).

Also, on Fling, i know what you are saying, but i was just giving an example. Its not usually used to get around opposing Togs, but it is an option, although i agree its not the best one for that.

As for keeping green, what can i say, i never liked Tog with more than 3 colors. In my experience it does impact the mana base negatively. If your experiences have differed, than more power to you, because obviously running more colors gives you more options. However, at this time, i dont see the need to keep green.

Based on LotG's comments, along with other people's suggestions, here is a tentative list:

Spells (31)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Duress
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Intuition
3 Cunning Wish
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Creatures (4)
3 Psychatog
1 Gorilla Shaman

Mana (25)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Fling
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gush
2 Energy Flux
1 Smother
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Coffin Purge

[Lord of the Goats]

me thinks you should cut the pearl for another blue source. i did and haven't missed it at all.

i think that the 4 color mana base is great. it's not like you need all 4 colors early game and you need either red or green in any given matchup... you usually have them anyway. deeds alone are woth the splash imo

last issue i got here is your sb. it's exteremly light on removal. a fast start from a weenie deck does need to be met with removal or you're in trouble. i've found removal to be golden and i think you should consider a bit more... especially with the 3rd wish. fire/ice is a good candidate, i actually run one main and the tempo it provides is great to sidestep duress and rectors.

[Fever]

I wish i had more time to reply, but i have to leave for work.

I will consider all your suggestions, as always, although it will be exceedingly difficult for me to find room in the sb for more removal. I do see your point however, so i will make an effort. As for cutting the Pearl, i dont like the idea of losing acceleration in this deck, as i like to be able to ramp up to 3 mana as quickly as possible. If testing shows me that i need another source of blue, i will consider it, but this has not been the case so far.

Thanks for all the insights, keep'em coming folks.