New HULK

[HengeWolf]

Perhaps people have resisted playing Hulk due to personal dislike of Psychatog decks.

Congrats to Carl and everyone else from TMD who did well at the event. I look forward to a day when Type1 gets a bit more respect from WotC! Hopefully this is only the beginning.

As for "Paragons," I think it's obvious you guys run these boards, more or less. It's not at all surprising that a lot of players would want to horn in on your tech, or follow your example. That's what competitive magic is. A few guys build the decks, a few more play them, and the vast majority copy those few. No one should be surprised at this phenomenon, as it has been well established in Type2 for years. It's a sign vintage is growing, for good or ill.

I'm NOT saying that anyone without "Paragon of Vintage" next to their avatar is a bad player either, that's not even the case. Maybe this big win will even inspire other players to develop their own playtesting "teams." It seems to work for the Pros, right?

The Paragons took advantage of the extra time and energy they were willing to expend, and they won. That's awesome, and well deserved. However, there will always be plenty of players who aren't willing to spend the time and energy, or simply cannot put in the hours. A lot of these people still want to participate in competitive magic. In short, there will always be plenty of players who don't playtest "enough."

Then there's the luck factor. Broken things happen. This is the main reason so many are skeptical; if the tournament was held all over again would the results stand or end up radically different?

In closing, am I the only one who noticed SCG's coverage repeatedly referred to Carl as "World's Luckiest Topdecker." Isn't that sort of equivalent to calling someone "One lucky sonafabitch?"  Personally, I thought the euphemism was slightly distasteful; would they refer to a pro tour winner that way? I guess that's what you get when your format is the Rodney Dangerfield of Magic.

[Dante]

Quote (HengeWolf @ July 28 2003,17:14)In closing, am I the only one who noticed SCG's coverage repeatedly referred to Carl as "World's Luckiest Topdecker." Isn't that sort of equivalent to calling someone "One lucky sonafabitch?"  Personally, I thought the euphemism was slightly distasteful; would they refer to a pro tour winner that way? I guess that's what you get when your format is the Rodney Dangerfield of Magic.

Right, it's like someone who "gets lucky" time after time, you have to think, maybe it's not luck.  

Also amusing about lucky topdecking - when you have a well built, well tested deck (that draws an assload of cards plus search like brainstorms/fetches), it's not really a surprise that you topdeck good cards.....whatever...I don't think anyone can begrudge Carl the win, he obviously put in not only a lot of testing, but quality testing, was gracious in victory, and rarely toots his own horn....nice job.

Dante

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Dante @ July 28 2003,18:40)Right, it's like someone who "gets lucky" time after time, you have to think, maybe it's not luck.  

My favorite was how at PTNO Kai topdecked Morphling on the last possible turn to beat Tomi Walamies and everyone was yelling about how insanely lucky that topdeck was.  Then someone pointed out to them that Kai had AK'ed for 3 and 4  and Stroked for 3 and until then had yet to see one of his 3 Morphlings.\n\n

[Eastman]

Quote (Smmenen @ July 28 2003,17:38)This is in response to all the people acting in disbelief at how well hulk did and is targeted at them.


People - Stop acting Surprised that Hulk is the best deck right now.

Everyone and I mean EVERYONE said that when Gush was restricted, Tog would still be around.  So why weren't you playing HULK?  

I'll tell you why: you all proved Darren's point made during the Berserk Thread: that you need Paragons around to help guide the herd.  Hulk was sitting here ready to be abused by EVERYONE.  So why is it that only 8 people played it at Gencon and over half of whom were paragons?  

Part of this community failed to do proper testing and use common sense.  

I mean, it blows my mind.  Everyone knew how good Hulk was in MARCH!!!!  Why would it not be the best now that Gush is restricted?  Gawd.

needed to vent,

Stephen Menendian

Smmenen... there is a difference between hiding tech from the public (or from these boards, anyways) and deliberately misrepresenting your thoughts and feelings about other decks and the meta.

It isn't just that you guys didn't talk about Hulk, you discussed other archetypes as superior in the current meta when you knew that Hulk was better. I'm not saying that your actions are inexcusable (you have the right to lead or mislead however you like) but do not criticize us for trusting our betters.

I've been playing for about nine months now and I trust that the Paragons know their stuff, and are honest in representing their knowledge. I'm trying to learn this format and am a good example of how Vintage is 'growing'. This kind of deceit will make me question you (and the other paragons) from here on in, and is a good step towards pushing new players away.

If you read forums and articles written for type 2, you will see how the real pros protect their tech and maintain full disclosure at once. It is not uncommon for Kai Budde to list deck matchups against 'Goblins, Beasts, and another secret deck we've been working on'. They mention that there is something else, and that they aren't willing to discuss it yet. There is nothing wrong with keeping things to yourselves as long as you make it clear that's what is being done. When you do not we get the impression that you are describing the entire format as you see it.

needed to vent,

David Lawrence



On another note

Isn't Krosan Reclamation simply better than Coffin Purge, or do you think green is too small a part of the mana base to incorporate this superior utility?

[jpmeyer]

The green can be hard to get since against combo you want to search for black first so you can Duress.  Reclamation also costs an extra mana and you rarely need to hit an extra card in their graveyard with it.\n\n

[Eastman]

That's what I was thinking... although the 2nd card is probably more useful against Welder decks, and KR can act as 'yard recursion in a pinch.

[Milton]

Quote This is in response to all the people acting in disbelief at how well hulk did and is targeted at them.


People - Stop acting Surprised that Hulk is the best deck right now.

Everyone and I mean EVERYONE said that when Gush was restricted, Tog would still be around.  So why weren't you playing HULK?  

I'll tell you why: you all proved Darren's point made during the Berserk Thread: that you need Paragons around to help guide the herd.  Hulk was sitting here ready to be abused by EVERYONE.  So why is it that only 8 people played it at Gencon and over half of whom were paragons?  

Part of this community failed to do proper testing and use common sense.  

I mean, it blows my mind.  Everyone knew how good Hulk was in MARCH!!!!  Why would it not be the best now that Gush is restricted?  Gawd.

needed to vent,

Stephen Menendian

I think what chaps most people isn't that Hulk is a great deck or that the Paragons contribute immeasurably to the format.  What chaps most people is the arrogance exhibited by many of you guys.

In person, every paragon I met was so nice.  They were cool guys, good opponents, willing to help, willing to share ideas.  I saw how close some of the games were.  

But, my team did pretty good too.  So did the guys from Canada.  Shock Wave isn't a paragon and he won one tournament, placed second in another and got edged by Carl in the big T1 playing his own creation which you guys wrote off.  Immagine being him and comming home to read these boards.  "Paragons guide the herd".  It's got to be pretty frusterating.

[David Hernandez]

@Eastman,

i've been at this game since '95.  It's good to see new blood coming into the format, so welcome.

in my opinion, i think you mis-read smmenen and others in the forums.  There are several very hot decks right now, and it's unfair to say that anyone was

Quote hiding tech from the public

.  

this is important, because if you look at the various threads regarding Hulk in the Vintage and Extreme Vintage Forums, you will see SEVERAL Hulk builds there, with flaming posts screaming that 'this is the best deck'.

an individual may build a deck based on a concept like Hulk or Stax/Ducktape or whatever, and they tweak it by one or two cards.  Then they personalize the sideboard for their area or whatever metagame they are entering.

in the case of Hulk, there weren't any secrets there.  All of the info was available in the existing threads (including playing 3 Psychatog and 3 Cunning Wishes).  This info was also hotly debated, so no one can really say that 'this was the best build'.

there's a lot of info that none of us would have if it weren't for the time and effort that so many TMDer's put into this forum and into practice.  Then they go out and PLAY and prove that their stuff works.  We all benefit from that, and we need to keep it in mind.

again--the info was available.  If Stax or Mask had won, we would all be having this same discussion but would be replacing the word "Hulk" with "Name_of_other_deck".

your point is understood, but i disagree with it.  I think you should reconsider, and not let it jade you against what we all have right now--a balanced metagame.

dave.

edit: also, the 'best deck' is the one you LIKE to play.  It's a game after all.  Playstyle is important.  I think Hulk is awesome, but i LOVE Stax.  I think Rector and Tendrils are awesome and fun, but i LOVE Stax.  So, even though i may think that one of those other decks can beat me, i'm going to give them a run for the gold because i believe i can outplay them with something i love to play.

[Eastman]

Hey you're right about the 'best deck'... I play 5c trinity keeper and love it  


But realize that there was at some level some deception going on here, or at least an intentional understatement. If there had been none then Smmenen's statement quoted multiple times above would have no basis. Smmenen would not make those claims if HE did not believe that he had deceived us in the way I described.


The crux of my problem is this:

Smmenen, it is different to say '!! YOU GUYS SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!!' as you just have than to say ' !! YOU GUYS SHOULD HAVE KNOWN EVEN THOUGH YOUR BETTERS TOLD YOU DIFFERENT!!' as would be more accurate here. Don't chastise us for trusting you, it ruins your credibility.

[Smmenen]

There was a level of deception going on - but it was a crime of ommission, not commission.  The worst thing I did was post an old list of JP's in my Article on SCG last week and claim that the deck was merely "good."  It was true that I considered JPs old list merely good - but it was deceptive in that I knew more than I was telling.  

However, there was ample opportunity for people to test against Hulk, see how good it might be, and then tune it.  I mean, JP did get 2nd with it at the last TMD tournament and only lost to GroAtog - that should have been a clue.  

Read this if you don't remember:
  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=4610

Hell - if anyone was clever, they would have noticed that Mid-June I deleted my Hulk postings in the Hulk Thread in the Vintage Forum.  Darren's remaining post was pretty damned close to our finals builds.  And my comments in SCG about Duress > Misdirection should have been the final peice of the puzzle - that Duress was simply more important in this environment.

All the information was there to make the necessary inferences, but yet no one did.  I did nothing that warrants saying I was outright deceptive.

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Eastman]

Quote (Smmenen @ July 28 2003,19:39)Hell - if anyone was clever, they would have noticed that Mid-June I deleted my Hulk postings in the Hulk Thread in the Vintage Forum.

I suppose you paragons are the only clever ones then.


Which means Zherbus is wasting his time, eh?

[Smmenen]

Sigh.  You just twisted my statement and you know it.  I'll qualify if you like: someone clever might have noticed that I deleted my post.  

I didn't lie to anyone.  There was merely radar silence.  A lie would have distorted the metagame worse than silence.  Furthermore, it wasn't just me.  It was Darren, Oscar, JP, and the whole crew.  It was a team effort and is justified on that basis.  

My venting comes in at my disbelief.  Hulk should have been much more played.  After the restriction of Gush, I would have thought it would have been obvious that Hulk is the first deck to look at.   I realize that Stax provided something of a distraction, as did the emergent combo decks, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Hulk was a leading contender which few followed through with.

And every article I wrote alluded precisely to what I thought the metagame would be like.  

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5227

What are the 6 format defining cards I pointed to?  Force of Will, Yawgmoth's Will, Illusionary mask, Mishra's Workshop, and Psychatog.  Of the top 8 at Gencon, how many of those decks lacked a single one of these?  Just one.  Academy Rector arguably deserves a slot on that list.

and here:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5227

I spent three paragraphs on why people should run duress over misdirection near the end.  

I also concluded with a note of caution:
"Finally, keep in mind that people have probably been working on technology for just this occasion - so keep your wits about you! "  

Steve\n\n

[Radagast]

For the record, I've been bugging people about adding Duress (usually over Misdirection) for ages. The problem is the online type one scene is almost completely dead (Somewhat more than ten people showed up for the ToC. That's just ridiculous.), meaning I have no way to actually test these things (IRL is out of the question due to financial and locational reasons).

[David Hernandez]

Quote All the information was there to make the necessary inferences, but yet no one did.  I did nothing that warrants saying I was outright deceptive.

Amen.

@Carl: did you at any time feel that you needed a 4th Duress or that 3 Cunning Wish were too many?

--dave

[BigChuck]

Honestly, most of you people amaze me.

Look, the paragons clearly put more time into testing then almost everyone, they have dozens of posts on their mailing lists a day concerning it, and they are all very good players to boot(well, msot of them). They earned the win, wether you like the way they went about it or not. I doubt if any of you had a deck that proved as good as their testing did for hulk, that you would have showed it. The tournament was justification that all of their testing didn't go for nothing.

There was almost 1800 posts on their mailing list in the four months preceding the tournament. I highly doubt that anyone besides them put in that kind of time and effort.

[PucktheCat]

I have to agree that anyone who paid a bit of attention to Type 1 in the last few months had to know that Hulk was a top contending deck.  The only negative thing about it was that its old versions had some trouble with Rector decks.  Coffin Purge solved that.  The fact that no one with Paragon under their name came out and said this shouldn't have mattered much.

I also must to say that anyone who didn't think Hulk was one of the top decks in Type 1 wasn't using their brains too much.  There was a whole thread on how Keeper could adapt to the new metagame, and the fact is if Keeper can adapt Hulk can too - these two decks can run the same things (almost exactly) except that Hulk can just win and Keeper has to actually control the game for several turns.

Leo

[walking dude]

Still despite, paragon silence no one should be surprised by hulks reign. Tog had done well everywhere its been played. If you followed the report forum you would see plenty of tog lists turning out wins, and top 2s 4s and 8s.

In my not "quite the repeat" post you see a list which is very close to paragon tog but a bit behind the curve, the deep anals didn't move main deck till a week later. Sol ring hadn't replaced strip and I still had not found mind twist and it never occurred to me to drop to three togs. But that was at least a week maybe two before gencon. If you had taken that list and tested it you would have gotten something very close to paragon tog. There was no attempt to 1984 me, shut down my report or anything like that. If you didn't trust my results, there were many others including JPs old reports where he says there is no excuse for an event to ever not be won by hulk. That's pretty open about the deck.

Everything anyone needed to make that deck and know to play it was in the open, all it needed was truly dedicated testing. Something I didn't have time for which is probably why I was missing a lot of key things. But the paragons did test. That's why they had the best deck. I don't mean to slight them, but I think any team of good players who used public info and put in anywhere near the work and effort they did would probably have reached similar conclusions with a similar deck list. They fact that they were the only ones who did is testament to their dedication and the fact that they were the only ones who deserved too.

[Chen]

Smmenen: The only problem I have with what you've been saying is what you wrote in your article about Hulk. You certainly made it sound like it wasnt the force that it actually is (you even suggested that White could/should be added to help some matchups). Aside from that, any secrecy behind builds/tech before Gencon and the Championships is PERFECTLY understandable.

All that being said, it was ONLY that article that downplayed Tog at all. Jp posted in the hulk threads in both the vintage forum and the unreg forum mentionning coffin purge. There were also comments around about Deep Analysis being used. From what I can see these were the only LARGE changes made to the deck (aside the change to duress which should have been obvious in any case) since any of the original posts. So for those who complain about being misled, you either ONLY read Smmenen's article on SCG or, and as arrogant or presumptuous as this may sound, you're simply upset that they didnt lead you by the hand and tell you all about their decklists before the biggest T1 tournament ...well ever.

[jpmeyer]

I'm pretty sure that Lord of the Goats also thought of Deep Analysis (oh and not to mention every single Standard and Extended player ever) and that the C&J Crew (and every single Standard and Extended player ever) had Coffin Purge.

[Saucemaster]

Quote I'm pretty sure that Lord of the Goats also thought of Deep Analysis (oh and not to mention every single Standard and Extended player ever) and that the C&J Crew (and every single Standard and Extended player ever) had Coffin Purge.

Yup.  After a mammoth playtesting session, we all had 3 Coffin Purge in the board.  I had a big, long, boring post about it on for MeanDeck, about how we arrived on the number three, and not two, etc.  We actually had some people who tested DA as well, and decided that it wasn't worth it, which I still hold, though I like it in the mirror.

Basically, Hulk was around for everyone to see, but there were alot of people who paid no attention because the "right people" weren't talking about it.  If people are going to so blindly trust in *only* a few names, no matter how good those name players may be, they're going to miss out on alot and, dare I say it, they need to be cautious of the possibility that those same names can use it to their advantage, and would be foolish not to do so for an event as big as Gencon.

[Fishhead]

Quote I'm pretty sure that Lord of the Goats also thought of Deep Analysis (oh and not to mention every single Standard and Extended player ever) and that the C&J Crew (and every single Standard and Extended player ever) had Coffin Purge.

Hehe.  Exactly so.  In our metagame right now the DA is waiting in the wings for a week when we expect a sufficient number of control mirrors to justify it.  It's clear what this piece of tech's purpose is and it's just a metagame call *when* to bust it out.  The Purges have been in for a while now, crushing Trix near to extinction and (I believe) keeping our own local Dragon deck out of the T8 last week.  

Quote I think what chaps most people isn't that Hulk is a great deck or that the Paragons contribute immeasurably to the format.  What chaps most people is the arrogance exhibited by many of you guys.

I've got to agree here.  I respect Carl's playskill, and moreover I respect his class for not doing any "Paragons 4EVR" trash-talking.  Winning is one thing; winning with class is another.

Imagine how annoying it would be if the Dulmen crew came on here every month chattering about how they "broke" the format blah-blah-blah because they won an 80 person tournament.  Or if we all out here had all tried to piggyback on Zhalfirin's win at the T1 Nationals.  "C&Js CrEW iZ Da !#1!"  That shows a lack of class.  It's fine to be exhuberant about a teammates win or your own good performance, but when people start saying "I'm sick of hearing from you" then you should have shut up about 4 posts ago.\n\n

[Azhrei]

As founder of the Paragons of Vintage and chief administrator if the group and its policies, I wish to make some clarifications:

1) I, for one, have been raging like a tornado since November about how good Hulk is. I never said anything other than my absolute faith in the deck. I always said it was the best deck in the format, and never said anything to indicate that I had the least bit of concern with any nonStax or nonMask deck. Time and again I stated that Psychatog based decks were the best, and that Hulk was the best version thereof. I even said it while GAT was legal, and I still believe that Hulk was better then. I'd go so far as to say that JP and I have been raving like lunatics about Hulk for months.

2) The Paragons acknowledge and respect the accomplishments of other excellent Vintage players. Not all excellent Vintage players are Paragons. However, all excellent players get noticed and are watched as potential members. For example, some Hulk builds posted were very similar to our own, and that was duly noted. As a corellary, there seem to be a lot of you who ignore what non "name" posters say just because they aren't known... if you had been listening to them, they were also talking about Hulk. The Paragons evaluate every idea, regardless of where it comes from. Some ideas don't make the cut, and some do.

3) The Paragons have a strict non-disclosure policy, which means that anything we try that is new gets kept under wraps until it is ready for a proper unveiling. While we did post UBgr lists of Hulk, with GenCon coming up we elected to  only post older versions of the deck, so everything after June was an older list, either UBgr or simply UBg-- for a while we were testing multiple builds.

4) We will divulge accurate information so long as we are not kept from doing so by the non-disclosure policy. While we do consider our role as educators to be an important one, our primary design is to break the format and win. The former is only compromised when it conflicts with the latter.

5) The Paragons, one the whole, have been remarkably correct about everything. We do make mistakes, such as my belief that Berserk's unrestriction would be a serious problem. However, my prediction for hybrid decks to dominate, specifically Tog, Workshop, and Mask based decks in particulat, was dead on. Listen to us, please. We want everyone to play the best Magic possible but that doesn't happen when we make statements and are ignored. We really do know what we're talking about-- there are a lot of us and we keep adding members.

6) The "Paragon arrogance" stems from three factors: first, we know our own value. We're in the business of being the best and in making the best our own. Thinking that we're great doesn't necessarily mean we think you suck-- in fact, you might be someone we have an eye on for future membership. You may, of course, suck. Second, testing that runs contrary to our own is highly suspect. We dismiss outside sources often because we trust our results more-- and we have 3 of the top 8, plus the winner of the other major tournament, plus all the people who couldn't make it but went in spirit through deck design and practice. It's not personal, but if your Hulk loses to Ankh Sligh, for example, we're not going to pay attention when you suggest maindecking 2 Gorilla Shaman and 3 Fire/Ice. Third, there are way too many people who have an unwarranted animosity toward the Paragons, especially some people who don't even know any of us. This angers us, because we don't post for our health-- if we wanted to, we could ghost TMD, get ideas, and then discuss privately and never give back.

We choose to give back, and some appreciation is warranted.

7) The Mana Drain and the Paragons of Vintage are separate entities. It just happens that both admins and half the mods are Paragons as well-- something about competency or something. Zherbus and I do not make administrative decisions as Paragons, nor do we let The Mana Drain influence the Paragons.

8) Finally, on a personal note, my teammates won the first major Vintage tournament EVER. Another won a major one after losing to two Hulk mirrors, going 6-2, and then going 9-0 finishing without having slept in 30 hours. They did a wonderful job and I wish I could have been with them to see it, win or lose personally. They've all broken their backs for the last five months preparing for this, they came, saw, and conquered, and if they want to celebrate and whoop it up a little... don't sling mud by calling them arrogant and show some respect to the people I consider the lifeblood of our format.

[David Hernandez]

is it just me, or do we need to re-focus on the "NEW HULK" topic...?

seems like a lot of flame is being spread, and i don't see how it's going to end...unless we grab hold of the wheel and get back on-topic.  This has been a good thread, let's not have it end by having a moderator lock it...

just my $0.02

--dave.

edit:  Az, looks like we posted simultaneously.  I think you said it all...and I'm not a Paragon team member...

...flaming...must......stop.. ...hair.....on.......fire.... ...

[Matt The Great]

Speaking of closing a thread, do we really need two "new hulk" threads going at once?

[Azhrei]

Good point.