TnT in Today's Environment

[Fishhead]

Quote For example, three color TNT gets royally screwed by PoP, to the extent that the matchup is in Sligh's favor.

I believe you were playing the version without Wastelands?  

PoP is extremely dangerous, its true, but I don't think I've been PoPed for more than 6, by playing carefully and by using Wasteland in response.  Still, PoP vulnerability is roughly a tossup between Ducktape and TnT.  And its better to have Survivalable Trikes and Juggies to suck up Bolts than it is to just take it all on the chin like Ducktape does.  

Quote
Both decks will zap Welders on-site, so you can forget about crazy Welder tricks in your favor except for the one activiation if you have Anger in the yard.

Once you resolve Survival (which they cannot deal with) you will simply fetch all 4 Welders and drain Sligh of Bolts.  As you point out Anger makes a noticable difference too; Ducktape doesn't get to use it's Welder before the guy gets Bolted; if TnT uses a dying Welder once to fetch Trike or Masticore the Sligh player extends the hand.  

The contention is that the TnT is significantly better against Aggro than Ducktape; which I think is pretty self evident due to the Survival and the Fat.

[Toad]

Once again, and hopefully for the last time, Stax is much tougher for TNT to deal with than anyone is willing to admit. I have played the matchup from both sides, and it is heavily dependant on what versions of either deck are being played.

A standard Stax's sideboard packs 3 or 4 Rack and Ruin to deal with early artifact threats, and some Fire/Ice to take care of Welders along with the common maindecked Triskelion. I've never lost a match to TNT in sanctionned tournament and I have a really good win/loss ratio in testing against it. Stax can abuse Sphere of Resistance and Tangle Wire more than TNT can do, and has a stronger draw engine. All you have to do is to settle a quick Smokestack. And Yawgmoth's Will just win you games.

Matt.

(Special thanks to Fever for his previous answer)\n\n

[Fever]

Yes Fishead, i played RG TNT with no Wastelands and maindeck Blood Moon, which is why i could completely ignore Price of Progress. The card was so useless against my build that the Sligh player would side it out, just ask Legend.

However, many players are running RGu TNT with and without Wastelands, and PoP can ve devastating there. Sure, if you expect PoP you can minimize the damage by Wasting your own lands, but thats not always an option. Not to mention that TNT likes to tap out, so the opportunity for a large PoP is definetly there.

Of course Survival can be game-winning, but i have lost games to Sligh with Survival on the table, because they simply overrun you before you have time to set up. Also, with the almost total lack of card draw in the deck, you cant expect to see an early Survival every game.

[Dante]

Fever - The TnT vs Sligh matchups SHOULD be strongly in favor of TnT in matchup percentage (assuming an experienced TnT player who has playtested vs sligh), but the actual games will usually be very close.  I ran a G/r/u TnT for months and was 5-0-1 against Sligh decks in sanctioned tournaments (and the 1 draw was an intentional draw in the last round of Crazy Con after winning game 1 because I wanted him in the Top 8) and had similar results in testing.

The key is not playing into your opponents PoPs unless you have too, don't play more than 2 non-basics.  Use the fetch's for forests.  I usually found enough early pressure to force them to need to use wastes for mana early and their mana for bolting/incinerating my creatures, not dropping Ankh.  I've seen a lot of players not mulligan properly..

I found that the matchup percentage was great in testing other versions too, but the games were close (i.e. lots of 2-0 matches, but the other player was usually 1 turn away from winning).  I found that if the TnT player played smart, they would do well.  Then again, this was when TnT sides commonly had Genesis and 1-2 Bottle Gnomes.

I haven't tested vs any RG Beatz because no one in my meta played it.  But yes, against a version like the one Wasp used to run (or still runs, who knows), it would have been a tough match.

Never tested against Stax since its rise was TnT's downswing.

Dante

[Fishhead]

Quote A standard Stax's sideboard packs 3 or 4 Rack and Ruin to deal with early artifact threats, and some Fire/Ice to take care of Welders along with the common maindecked Triskelion.

You mention like 8 cards out of your sideboard but only two that you maindeck as showing that the matchup is in Ducktapes favor?

I think the comment that "it is heavily dependant on what versions of either deck are being played" is the most true; and you seem to have a decent number of slots devoted to anti-Ducktape / anti-TnT SB cards.  Maindeck, however, I still say that Game 1 is all about one team being able to have a Survivalable Angry Welder and the other team gets nothing.  

Do you agree with this analysis of Game 1?  If not, what do you think your win percentage is in the pre-sideboarded game?  Going to Game 2&3, whats your take on why TnT plays 4 Naturalize in the SB rather than 4 Rack and Ruin?

[Toad]

In my testings, Stax has a favorable matchup against TNT in both sideboarded and unsideboarded games. As you mentionned, the key of the game is (almost) TNT being able to cast a Survival of The Fittest then to abuse it by fetching hasty Welders. The point is, as Fever mentionned previously, TNT lacks a search engine (except with Sylvan Library and fetchland for shuffling) and won't always draw into Survival soon enough to seal the game. Stax has a far better draw engine and I found that I could find my virtual 2 maindeck Triskelions (Triskelion + Tinker, which almost always fetches Triskelion against TNT) more often than TNT could find one of his 4 Survivals. And Stax can simply go broken with incredible first or second turn sealing the game right here, while TNT is not able to do that to the same extend. My sideboard is always changing, but I'll advocate to run at least 3 Rack and Ruin and 2 Fire/Ice that you will side in against TNT. And most of the time, I found that TNT was more often bringing in Naturalize than Rack and Ruin post sideboard, because TNT has to find answers to problems Stax don't have, like Humility, Worship or Moat for example.

Even if I have done a lot of playtesting against TNT when we were working on $T4KS with Smmenen and Cha1n5, I won't give some percentages, because this is prone to useless discussions. And, as there are a lot of versions of TNT everywhere, It's still pretty hard to find an optimal one.

M.

[Fishhead]

Quote The point is, as Fever mentionned previously, TNT lacks a search engine (except with Sylvan Library and fetchland for shuffling) and won't always draw into Survival soon enough to seal the game.

If I am playing TnT then I want to see either a Survival or a Welder in my opening hand, almost regardless of the matchup.  Or maybe multiple fat creatures, one of them preferrably being the Trike, but thats risky.  I think you can assume that by using the mighty mulligan draw engine then TnT will have something that gives you a problem in their opening hand - either the Survival or the Welder.

Quote ...I won't give some percentages, because this is prone to useless discussions...

This has been an issue on TMD ever since the ABM flamewars, but I strongly disagree with refusing to give win percentages.  Every serious team does testing in order to find out win percentages; so they're clearly valuable.  As long as everyone can remain civil about other people's testing, then I think it can only be helpful to post them.  

Quote And most of the time, I found that TNT was more often bringing in Naturalize than Rack and Ruin post sideboard, because TNT has to find answers to problems Stax don't have, like Humility, Worship or Moat for example.

I think I've seen Humility, Worship and Moat played against me once each in all of the time that I have played TnT.  They are rare in the environment, much rarer than facing Ducktape or artifacts in the TnT mirror.  

Anyway, my point was this: if Rack and Ruin is really the key to the matchup, TnT can run it just as well as Ducktape can.  But I dont see anyone using yet.

[Toad]

Quote (Fishhead @ Aug. 07 2003,22:36)I think you can assume that by using the mighty mulligan draw engine then TnT will have something that gives you a problem in their opening hand - either the Survival or the Welder.

Of course, a first turn Welder gives problems to Stax if the Stax players doesn't play carefully. But TNT has nothing to dump artifacts in his opponent's graveyard excepted Memory Jar, which you won't cast in the first few turns. This can buy enough time to Stax to settle counter measures, like tutoring for Triskelion. Not to mention Stax can negate you from playing a single spell in the few first turns if you're going second.

Quote As long as everyone can remain civil about other people's testing, then I think it can only be helpful to post them.

So, as long as everyone remains civil...
I've tested against various builds of TNT, but mostly a RG Tangle one and a RGu Tangle one too. Both packed 4 Naturalize in the sideboard and 1 Viashino Heretic. After about 60 games, It's 60/40 in favor of Stax, with me playing Stax, and against experienced TNT players (mostly IRL testing against french players).  

Quote Anyway, my point was this: if Rack and Ruin is really the key to the matchup, TnT can run it just as well as Ducktape can.  But I dont see anyone using yet.

During the TNT mania, TNT used to pack a full set of Artifact Mutation in the sideboard in Dülmen. Since then, TNT has always been used to play Naturalize as a more versatile answer.

M.

[Dante]

Quote (Toad @ Aug. 07 2003,16:03)During the TNT mania, TNT used to pack a full set of Artifact Mutation in the sideboard in Dülmen. Since then, TNT has always been used to play Naturalize as a more versatile answer.

Ah..they do, but should they? (run naturalize that is).  What enchantments is TnT afraid of?  Bargain - naturalize is too late to stop it.  Abyss? Nope.  Future Sight?  You're not going side in naturalize for 1-2 future sights (you'll be siding in REB).  Moat/Humility - if you see these, but who does? Deed, maybe.

I think the real question is if you see Venguer Mask or other TnT decks, that's where you'd want naturalize over Artifact Mutation, since it can hit either the mask/dreadnought OR Survival.

dante

[Fishhead]

Quote Ah..they do, but should they? (run naturalize that is).  

I generally ran 3 Naturalizes and 1 Mutation, once Naturalize was printed.  But remember that when the deck first came out, we didn't have the option of Naturalize.  Remember the one Battlemage that people used to run?  Hrm, there was some anti-artifact tech.    So a lot of this is about the evolution of the deck.  After Hurkyls was unrestricted I often ran one in the SB of my RGu - things keep changing around.

At 3CC Rack and Ruin has some definite drawbacks over Naturalize, but I see no reason why Ducktape could play it and TnT cant.  Theoretically, TnT is playing Naturalize because it is *better*, not because we are too lazy to reconsider our SB cards.  In practice, things may be different.  

So, is Naturalize defunct?  And if you consider Ducktape to be the reason for adding anti-artifact is it best to use Mutation, Hurkyls or Rack & Ruin?

[Toad]

Quote (Fishhead @ Aug. 08 2003,00:26)Theoretically, TnT is playing Naturalize because it is *better*, not because we are too lazy to reconsider our SB cards.  In practice, things may be different.  

So, is Naturalize defunct?  And if you consider Ducktape to be the reason for adding anti-artifact is it best to use Mutation, Hurkyls or Rack & Ruin?

You're right, Naturalize is theorically better. Naturalize is versatile and polyvalent, Rack and Ruin is a bomb but more narrow. I don't thing we really have to take the casting cost into account here, because TNT and Stax run approximatly the same amount of mana sources (Stax has Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault but TNT has Wasteland).

In a field full of TNT and Artifact Prison, Rack and Ruin is probably better because of the inherant card and tempo advantage it gives you.  But those decks are not the only decks in Type One. TNT has access to answers to Oath of Druids and Survival of the Fittest via Naturalize, and should use it. A polyvalent tool is better than a narrow bomb., and that's why I think playing Rack and Ruin over Naturalize in TNT is not a really great choice. But this is nothing more than a metagame call. I'm fine with 4 Naturalize in my sideboard, along with an utility critter for artifact removal (Viashino Heretic, Elvish Scrapper, Sex Monkey...).

M.

[Fishhead]

Quote After about 60 games, It's 60/40 in favor of Stax, with me playing Stax, and against experienced TNT players (mostly IRL testing against french players).  

OK, we playtested it IRL with current versions of these decks and came up with exactly the same results for Game 1.  A bit to my surprise.  I did feel like TnT was kinda pooping on me in uncharacteristic ways (frequently being stuck at <4 land in a 29 source deck), so I could believe 50/50 also.  But I can also see a couple problems that I didn't notice before in the matchup which make it very tough.

One key thing was that a first turn Welder just wasn't as good as it sounded like it would be, so TnT needs to get a good start rather than just playing Land->Welder->Go.

After the SB, it looked like it was all about the SB cards.  I was a bit surprised to look back at the beginning of this thread and see kl0wn running 3 R&R + 3 Naturalize, but taking that SB into Games 2&3 seemed to help a lot.  (Actually I'd consider 2 R&R, 2 Artifact Mutation + 2 Naturalize; Artifact Mutation was incredible, leading to token beatdown wins and totally screwing over Tangle Wire.)

[Dante]

Quote (Fishhead @ Aug. 10 2003,22:40)

Quote After about 60 games, It's 60/40 in favor of Stax, with me playing Stax, and against experienced TNT players (mostly IRL testing against french players).  

OK, we playtested it IRL with current versions of these decks and came up with exactly the same results for Game 1.  A bit to my surprise.  I did feel like TnT was kinda pooping on me in uncharacteristic ways (frequently being stuck at <4 land in a 29 source deck), so I could believe 50/50 also.  But I can also see a couple problems that I didn't notice before in the matchup which make it very tough.

One key thing was that a first turn Welder just wasn't as good as it sounded like it would be, so TnT needs to get a good start rather than just playing Land->Welder->Go.

After the SB, it looked like it was all about the SB cards.  I was a bit surprised to look back at the beginning of this thread and see kl0wn running 3 R&R + 3 Naturalize, but taking that SB into Games 2&3 seemed to help a lot.  (Actually I'd consider 2 R&R, 2 Artifact Mutation + 2 Naturalize; Artifact Mutation was incredible, leading to token beatdown wins and totally screwing over Tangle Wire.)

fishhead - what kind of TnT build was this??

[Fishhead]

Quote fishhead - what kind of TnT build was this??

Oops, thats a typo where I attribute the decklist to kl0wn - this thread was started by Clown of Tresserhorn.  Anyway, the decklist I used was a hybird of Clown of Tresserhorn's and the latest Lord of the Goats list.  

Overall, its RG TnT with Spheres and Tangle Wires.  (Sphere is just horrible in this matchup!)  Zhalfirin tried a similar deck in a couple of the recent tournaments and has done fairly well.

[Dante]

Quote (Fishhead @ Aug. 11 2003,13:46)

Quote fishhead - what kind of TnT build was this??

Oops, thats a typo where I attribute the decklist to kl0wn - this thread was started by Clown of Tresserhorn.  Anyway, the decklist I used was a hybird of Clown of Tresserhorn's and the latest Lord of the Goats list.  

Overall, its RG TnT with Spheres and Tangle Wires.  (Sphere is just horrible in this matchup!)  Zhalfirin tried a similar deck in a couple of the recent tournaments and has done fairly well.

DarkCrusader finished tied for 1st with a similar deck yesterday.

Dante

[DarkCrusader]

Actually we decided to split the first place prize and play for the bragging rights later that evening. I won. Tangle Wires and Spheres are the bizomb. I will have a tourny report up really soon.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

It's good to see that TnT did well...although it is still quite weak in today's meta. Anytime you CAN'T go better than 50/50 first game vs. most of the top-decks, it's almost a lost cause. Although the SB helps tremendously, it's still at a loss. My testing vs. Stax has been different...I usually go 60/40 or better unsideboarded (with my version) vs. stax. Before you flame me, let me explain some things...I have been playing playing TnT for awhile and consider myself somewhat good at playing it. The people I tested against were either new to stax, or played it for like a month. This may be a huge advantage for me...anyways, MD Strips and wastes  are now A MUST!!!!!! I cannot stress that enough. They are simply amazing, and with decks running less and less lands (in favor of brainstorm), a timely wasteland dicks them over like nothing else. Post board, a lot of the matchups look easier, as you have answers for stax, Hulk, and somewhat Trix. Rack and ruin, IMO, is better for TnT than Artifact mutation for 2 reasons:

1) Mana Base, if stax gets an amazing start, they can cut you off green pretty easily. With rack and ruin, you can hold back some moxen (assumming no Sphere in play) and play RnR right quick.

2) TnT's high permanent count means that the tokens you get won't be as effective. In this case, i would rather take 2 artifacts than 1 and gaining lots of 1/1s.

Anyways, I really dislike sphere/wire in an aggro deck. It should be either one or the other. Aggro decks should only have so many spaces devoted to disruption, and I think 4 sphere, 4 tangle wire, X blood moons is pushing it a bit. I am currently testing a totally new build. It looks promising, but I don't want to say much, as it's only theortical and hasn't seen much testing. I would say, though, that TnT is a weak choice going into a highly competitive power-driven tournament. Lets hope Mirrodin brings us a huge beatstick (along the lines of platinum angel, only cheaper) to bring back TnT to the powerhouse it once was.

[Cancerman]

@Clown of Tresserhorn
I have to agree with you that Spheres and Tangle do not make a good combo in the deck. This month's tourney at Carta saw me finish 4th overall with 3 maindeck Moons and 3 Spheres. The Spheres were a bit clunky at times. It either slowed me down or it was a bad draw in a long run.

Right now, I'm experimenting with 1-2 Bazaar of Bagdad in the deck, along with 3 Blood Moon. With 2 Squee aboard, it appears to be a good draw engine, and it also provides nice artifatcs in the graveyard to weld away.

I'll keep you up to date with the testing.

    TnT forever! ROAR