The Hizzouse

[herby]

Hey all,
i just returned from Gencon and i thought that i performed fairly well.  25th at worlds.  i really feel that suicide is a very powerful deck in todays environment.
i came up with this deck on friday after being molested by stax.

The Hizzouse:

4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
4 unearth

4 phyrexian negator
4 nantuko shade
3 skittering skirge
2 withered wretch

4 null rod  (the hizzouse)

1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 yawgmoth's will
1 necropotence
1 kaervek's spite

4 dark ritual
8 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 badlands
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 black lotus

sideboard:
4 rack and ruin
4 contagion
4 tormod's crypt
3 blood moon


sorry for stating the obvious.

hymn:
hymn was better than usual this weekend because of the lack of misdirection.

duress:
needs no explanation.

unearth:
this card is so amazing, allows you to bring back early countered creatures, get around skirges catch.  it also cycles so it's never a dead card.

negator/shade/skirge:
core creatures in suicide.

withered wretch:
a lot of decks were playing AK and i was also scared of rector and hulk.  hippie is too slow to deal with combo effectively so it was taken out for this guy, the 4th rod, and the spite but i'm still not positive on which i would rather play at the moment.

null rod:
this card makes suicide viable in todays environment of combo and keeper.  it's nuts.

demonic tutor/demonic consultation/yawgmoth's will:
too good not to play.

necropotence:
this was a metagame call.  i didn't see a lot of aggro decks the first few days so i didn't see any reason not to play necro.

kaervek's spite:
without many decks playing misdirectiong you have to look at this card as "BBB: instant, your opponent loses 5 life."  beating combo is all about early disruption and fast damage.  this card won me many games.  excellent when trix goes to 5 with bargain.

polluted delta/badlands:
on day 1 and 2 i saw a lot of stax and a few tnt decks. i needed a way to deal with them so i put these in so i could side rack and ruin.

sideboard:

rack and ruin:
i didn't have any stax matches but rack and ruin won me a match against ankh sligh when ensnaring bridge was cast.  i can't think of a better way to deal with stax for suicide.  nevi's disk is far too slow of an answer.

contagion:
even though aggro is seeing less play IMO there has to be a way to deal with it.

tormod's crypt:
helps you against hulk, rector, and dragon along with other random graveyard manipulation.

bloodmoon:
does this really need any explanation?


i went 5-2-1.

losing to hulk and outdated keeper.  both went to 3 games
and i think that either of them could have went my way.
the draw was to a very well built tendrills deck.  nullrod was the only thing that kept me in game 2 and 3.  if i would have conceded game 1 when he went off on me turn 2 i would have had enough time to beat him on game 3 since i had already laid a nullrod when time was called.  i think that this deck is very powerful in todays environment.

criticism is welcome.


congrats to carl.

[Matt The Great]

In 'today's environment' I've found Wretch to be absolutely amazing. How did having the two work out for you? I would have ran four, because what deck doesn't use the graveyard? Also, it would have made room in the sideboard. Specifically, how were the Skirges compared to the hypothetical Wretches? Was the extra point of power ever so good? What about the flying, did that ever come in handy?

Did you just not have a Jet or did you cut it to lower the chances of Null Rod giving you a dead card?

Did the disharmony between Null Rod and Tormod's Crypt ever bother you? (Another argument for Wretch!) I'd think that there were several matchups where you'd want them both but be unable to run them both.

[herby]

the wretch didn't help me at all actually but that was because i didn't get the matchups that it need to shine in.  i played:
round 1 - UW random scrub win
round 2 - ankh sligh win
round 3 - tendrills draw
round 4 - hulk loss
round 5 - burning wish keeper win
round 6 - keeper loss
round 7 - ? (all i wrote in my notes for this round was masturbation because nullrod locked him down so hard that he didn't lay anything other than crypt and moxen and i beat him down severly) win
round 8 - keeper win

i think that wretch is a great card maindeck if you're horribly scared of rector.  it helps against hulk if they can't get the tog and you get an early wretch to stop their AKs.  i think that dragon will begin to see more play again and this will be a great hoser for that as well.

i didn't have the jet but i think that it's  important to play 1 even though there are the 4 rods.  laying 1st turn rod is VERY important against tendrills.

for the matches i sided in crypt the null rod hurt them all just as much so they would need to deal with the rod before they could go off.  so having either or both in hand or play would be good for you.

Merged Posts - Mo

[EDIT] sorry, i didn't address the skirge in my last reply.

i don't think that the 1 power greater in skirge is horribly devastating but i would rather have the 1 extra power of skirge than 2 more wretches main right now.  the flying comes in handy but there is no obvious reason for having the flying.  as of right now i haven't made my mind up about wretch but i'll keep trying it out and let you know.\n\n

[Mykeatog]

I also played with the maindeck Wretch's this weekend. They were outstanding.

I even played with sinkhole. It was never a bad draw, just sometimes it wasn't the threat I had hoped to topdeck.

I find that without mis-d, us Suicide players can really bring some mess to the table.

Herby, we met (alot) at Gencon, you were an awesome guy, keep up the good work.

[Milton]

Yeah, but I invented Unearth!    

Seriously, though, how important was Null Rod, Mike, and how did you do in the $250 tournament?  Didn't you play Ankh Sligh with maindeck Pillars?

[wuaffiliate]

if i didnt have to work this weekend i was going to go to gencon with shock_wav and some other but lo and behold my asshole boss made me work. i was going to run this. no power because i could not borrow it and i sold mine months ago. i cant say i miss the sinks all that much, rods do such a good job of mana denial most of the time more so than sinks do. im still unsure as what to use in that slot, always testing lol.

//NAME: spankmachine
// BY: Al "wuaffiliate" Dubuc
// Creatures (16)
        4 Phyrexian Negator
        4 Nantuko Shade
        4 Withered Wretch
        4 Hypnotic Specter
// Restricted Brokeness (4)
        1 Necropotence
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Demonic Consultation
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Disruption (11)
        3 Null Rod
        4 Hymn to Tourach
        4 Duress
// Help(3)
        3 Unearth
// Mana(27)
        17 Swamp
        4 Dark Ritual
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
// Sideboard (15)
SB:  4 Contagion
SB:  4 Powder Keg
SB:  3 Masticore
SB:  2 Diabolic Edict
SB:  2 Coffin Purge

[suicide_slushy]

Herby, there is no reason to run skirge over hypnotic scepter, I would NEVER advise you to remove hippies.  

I support the red splash.  Rack and Ruin drastically improves too many of your bad matchups, but if your metagame is workshop light they can be left out.
Bloodmoon also is a house and needs no explanation as to why.

I think with the recent increase in combo and the decline of pure aggro it may be time for sui to look back into Fleshreavers.  I'd test them myself, but I'm not an avid Sui player (despite the screen name)

[wuaffiliate]

Flesh Reaver is SHIT. The best 4th creature after hippy/gator/shade is Withered Wretch.

[Methuselahn]

There should be talk about adding green for deed, naturalize, and other hate for your meta.  We all know it works great in nether void.dec, Sui being able to take out enchantments via green vs. red is soooo much better.  adding fetches and other nonbasics really doesn't hurt Nantuko Shade either.

[Milton]

Quote There should be talk about adding green for deed, naturalize, and other hate for your meta.  We all know it works great in nether void.dec, Sui being able to take out enchantments via green vs. red is soooo much better.  adding fetches and other nonbasics really doesn't hurt Nantuko Shade either.

Well, running Bloodmoon in the board makes it either B/r Suicide or B/r/g without Bloodmoon.  Can Bloodmoon win more games than Deed?  It would seem so.  Or are you talking about a B/g deck?  Does Deed improve the match-up against Stacks, or is it too slow?

Anyway, we (Herby, Roubonia and I) designed the deck around Null Rod, first and formost.  Null Rod is the Hizzouse.  We splashed Red to give the deck a chance against Stacks.  Stacks crushed Suicide if they get the Sphere/Wire/Smokestack out early enough.  For a while we were sitting in the ghetto Motel 6 before the tournament and we just figured that the deck would just lose to Stacks and we hoped that Herby didn't get paried agaisnt it.  Then, we saw a guy splashing white in his Suicide for Serenity (I think).  It worked well.  We thought, what the hell.

First, we decided that Withered Wretch deserved a slot (Mykeatog helped with this).  Then, we thought about Welder or Shaman.  We added the Mires and Badlands and figured that we'd just throw in red in the board.  Rack and Ruin was the best fit.  Bloodmoon seemed an obvious choice.  

We had a tough choice to make with the creature base and we decided that Hyppie was a little too slow.  We took out the four Hyppies for two Wretches, added a fourth Null Rod (Herby was playing only three) and Herby decided to add Kervek's Spite as a trick to beating Tendrils or a late game anwser.  Hyppie is good, but Brainstorm has made it easy to hide cards and we needed room for a good first turn two drop that could follow up a Ritual - Duress.  Ritual - Duress - Wretch (or Skirge or Shade).  It was a tough call, but on the weekend we decided that Specter wasn't cutting it anymore.

In the World Championships Herby had some awesome plays.  He would have to tell you about them all.  Demonic Consultation for Lotus for Bloodmoon.  The Null Rod play to kill Ensnaring Bridge against Sligh for the win.  His first round opponent with the Golden Wish.\n\n

[Ruboonia]

Quote (Milton @ July 29 2003,23:04)His first round opponent with the Golden Wish.

Golden Wish for Ornithopter to block Nantuko Shade and survive an extra turn...GENIUS!

[Melmoth]

Adding green to suicide for Deed, or anything else I've seen people add so far, just makes it much, much worse.  Taking out Hypnotic Spectre is just plain appalling.

Don't try to turn Suicide into a more complex deck than it is.  Perhaps one day someone (or even me, who knows) will find something worth splashing for, but it hasn't happened yet and isn't very likely to happen anytime soon.  Suicide is straightfoward and has its great hands and terrible ones--by it's nature it isn't a deck that is meant to answer threats and pull itself out from the maw of doom.  

Playing Suicide is like going for a stroll in Central Park at 4AM.  You don't have to worry about having an answer for the knife-wielding maniac assaulting you because YOU are the maniac.

P.S.  Unearth has been done before.  Jamie Wakefield (remember the King of Fatties?) used to play mono-black with with Unearths in type I and 1.5 and it was popular in Urza's type II for a bit.  And while not bad, it's just not that good either.  Despite the fact that they are one mana, they aren't an early play.  What I am saying is that, yes sometimes they'll be very nice, and you'll put the Force of Will-ed Negator that you tried to ritual out on turn one back into play on turn two or three, but just as often you'll draw hands that would have been incredible, IF the stupid Unearth in your hand was a real creature spell.  

Since Suicide, as a full ahead aggro deck is not drawing extra cards (aside from a restricted Necropotence) the opening hand is what matters most, and Unearth is awful in the opening hand (where you will see it very often since you're playing 4).  You live an die by your first three turns, Unearth is something usually will not be good until after that.  It might win you some mid/late games, but I believe I will win more by playing very strong cards that accentuate the strengths of a particular strategy, rather than mediocre cards that partially shore up some of its weaknesses.\n\n

[wuaffiliate]

i always found 4 was too many rods, they just ended up cluttering, 3 was enough to draw often or turor for when not drawn.

also Wretch is such a house! i would test 4 if you havent already . and hippy may be abit slower but he is so effective when u can drop him very early i think hes a must.

[Matt The Great]

I would honestly go so far as to say that Withered Wretch is not just better than Skirge but that in a high-powered, up-to-date metagame it is better than Nantuko Shade, too. All shade does is attack and block, and right now those are probably the two least important things you can be doing. It is far more important to stop the opponent's gameplan. I also would not like to see Wretch and Shade fight for my spare mana.

Taking a page from Azhrei, monoblack suicide is not as good as B/x. Practically every splash color provides so much that it's unthinkable, in my mind, to not splash. Four duals and four to eight fetchlands means you will never, ever want for your splash color's mana.

I have not tried B/r but in theory it should be decent.

The sole reason to try B/g would be Pernicious Deed, and yes, it IS a slow card. Probably too slow to stop Stax - Null Rod would be better in that matchup.

Here's a deck I was working on until the Rector decks started using Tendrils instead of Illusions:

//NAME: PT Junk v1.1
//  Bring In the Noise
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        4 Hymn to Tourach
        4 Duress
        3 Pernicious Deed
//  Bring In The Funk
        4 Nantuko Shade
        4 Mishra's Factory
        4 Hypnotic Specter
        3 Phyrexian Negator
//  Get Down, Get Down
        1 Regrowth
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
//  Jungle Boogie
        4 Dark Ritual
        4 Polluted Delta
        2 Bloodstained Mire
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
        3 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Scrubland
        4 Swamp
        4 Bayou
//  Sideboard
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Wasteland
SB:  2 Powder Keg
SB:  2 Choke
SB:  4 Withered Wretch
SB:  4 Seal of Cleansing

The Seals were initially Serenity (to deal with TNT, which was just kicking B/g's ass left and right) but the rise of Rector-Trix made me switch. Seals are better than Naturalize because they don't sit in your hand forcing you to keep mana open, and also are not Misdirectable.

The fetchlands make even such a three color manabase workable. I see no reason at all to restrict yourself to just black.



Later, I was trying to come up with a deck to fight the wave of combo:

// StifleCide

5 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal*
4 Dark Ritual

3 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Withered Wretch
3 Unearth

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Brainstorm

2 Null Rod
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Stifle

At first I tried Flesh Reavers but they were just horrible. They realy are that bad; do not use them.

The Lotus Petal I think belongs in any deck that has a lot of 2cc things to cast. Think of it as a sixth Ritual (Black Lotus being the fifth). The difference between casting Hymn and Null Rod on your first turn versus your second is so huge that I am more than willing to throw away a card to maximize the potential for such an opening.

Notice the lack of Hymns - I suspected that Hymn to Tourach would prove too slow to stop the Tendrils decks, so I switched to Cabal Therapy. I think now that I was being a little paranoid, but I did discover that Therapy is insane. It really is Duresses five through eight, and it's not uncommon to find a matchup where it's BETTER than Duress (TNT, for instance).

I can't speak for everyone's personal intuition (it really helps to be good at reading faces) but I have almost never cast a Therapy and NOT nabbed a card. The only time it is ever weak is playing first, in the first game, against an unknown opponent - if you lost the die roll, an astute player should immediately know what they're playing against, and will probably be able to deduce the remaining contents of the opponent's hand. It also has some nice synergy with Unearth that shouldn't be overlooked.

I do not think that either of the decklists I just posted are anywhere near the top of the format, but I thought I'd share my results, the most important of which are that Withered Wretch is amazing, so is Therapy, and that I see no reason not to splash a color.\n\n

[Milton]

Quote Adding green to suicide for Deed, or anything else I've seen people add so far, just makes it much, much worse.  Taking out Hypnotic Spectre is just plain appalling.

Don't try to turn Suicide into a more complex deck than it is.  Perhaps one day someone (or even me, who knows) will find something worth splashing for, but it hasn't happened yet and isn't very likely to happen anytime soon.  Suicide is straightfoward and has its great hands and terrible ones--by it's nature it isn't a deck that is meant to answer threats and pull itself out from the maw of doom.  

Playing Suicide is like going for a stroll in Central Park at 4AM.  You don't have to worry about having an answer for the knife-wielding maniac assaulting you because YOU are the maniac.

P.S.  Unearth has been done before.  Jamie Wakefield (remember the King of Fatties?) used to play mono-black with with Unearths in type I and 1.5 and it was popular in Urza's type II for a bit.  And while not bad, it's just not that good either.  Despite the fact that they are one mana, they aren't an early play.  What I am saying is that, yes sometimes they'll be very nice, and you'll put the Force of Will-ed Negator that you tried to ritual out on turn one back into play on turn two or three, but just as often you'll draw hands that would have been incredible, IF the stupid Unearth in your hand was a real creature spell.  

Since Suicide, as a full ahead aggro deck is not drawing extra cards (aside from a restricted Necropotence) the opening hand is what matters most, and Unearth is awful in the opening hand (where you will see it very often since you're playing 4).  You live an die by your first three turns, Unearth is something usually will not be good until after that.  It might win you some mid/late games, but I believe I will win more by playing very strong cards that accentuate the strengths of a particular strategy, rather than mediocre cards that partially shore up some of its weaknesses.

First, it's good to have you back, Matt.  You have been missed.

Anyway, the "I invented Unearth" thing is a waaaaay inside joke between Myketog, Herby and me.  We aren't really trying to claim credit.

As for splashing, well it's been done before.  In the days of Necro it wasn't uncommon to see a Necro deck splash four Scrublands and add two Cities to the board along with COP Red.  It's cearly a metagame call, to be sure, but I remember seeing it occur.

With fetchlands, splashing becomes so easy.  Ian splashed Blue in his Goblin deck for Ancestral and Walk, running one lone Volcanic among his eight fetchlands.  It didn't weaken his deck at all.  He placed seventh.

But, I understand what you are saying.  Herby wasn't at all playing an optimal build.  Many of the cards were a metagame call.  In fact, no optimal build of Suicide would include Null Rod.   But, Null Rod was the house at GenCon.

As for Unearth, well we just have to disagree.  It's a great answer to the turn one Force of Will.  It also allows you some nifty early plays, it works well with Skittering Skirge and it cycles.

Also, I know we look like idiots for cutting Hyppie.  But Herby said it wasn't doing the job.  It wasn't effective, so we pulled it in favor of the Wretches.

And, I think anyone who was there would agree that the four Null Rods was necessary.  You needed one on turn one or two against the massive amounts of combo oriented decks.  It just shut down so much stuff.  First turn Ritual - Duress - Null Rod was GG against so many decks there.

But, Matt, your right.  We weren't at all trying to be optimal.

[wuaffiliate]

i can see why people want to make sui with a splash, its nice to add combo hate. but sui is a mono-b deck, when u add colours its really not suicide-black it runs on the same principals but it just doesnt work as well in a varied metagame as the redundant "knife-wielding maniac" i know and love . i would like to try 2 scrubs, 6-8 fetches and 4 serenitys, but the only place it would be needed is at such events as gencon. its just not needed in most metagames to hate stax that badly.

i think with testing stuff like wretches/rods/kill switch and searching for more tech is the way to evolve the deck not splashing. PTFunk was a nice spin off sui, and i really enjoyed playing it (matt ) but it didnt improve enough upon sui so it really didnt stick arround, mana screw was always a problem for me.

but people will always have different styles .

also Unearth is just so damn good, after playing hundreds of games with 3 and 4 maindeck i like 3.

[Andreas]

First let me say that I am not a Suicide Expert. I am a Blue player at heart, so more likely I am the guy sitting across the table from it. Nevertheless I know very well what I do NOT want to see my opponent doing.

That said I think the best reason for any splash in Suicide is

Blood Moon.

Since the Fetchlands entered the format almost all of the decks run almost exclusively nonbasic lands, which makes Blood Moon THE best mana denial spell in the format, especially in combination with Null Rod. I would even play at least one in the maindeck.

Suicide has the disruption to push Blood Moon through, plus the speed to finish the opponent before he can recover by finding his one basic Island and Cunning Wish for Blue Elemental Blast.

As an added bonus red gives Suicide two very potent weapons against various Creature decks, Flametongue Kavu and Terminate.

On another note: I would definitely try to work in some amount of Cabal Therapies in addition to the Duress and Hymn to Tourach, for a total of at least 10 discard spells.

Just my 2 cents

[wuaffiliate]

there are already enough good spells to deal with creatures for black terminate is nice but i dont think its needed.

Ftk is painfull on the mana curve, and as for therapy what would you give as an example of a list with therapy? i dont think there is the room.

if i would splash i would deffnately splash 6 fetches, 2 badlands, moons and rack and ruins. as posted at the top, but i would still run my maindeck basically as it is.

[herby]

Quote (Melmoth @ July 29 2003,20:34)P.S.  Unearth has been done before.  Jamie Wakefield (remember the King of Fatties?) used to play mono-black with with Unearths in type I and 1.5 and it was popular in Urza's type II for a bit.  And while not bad, it's just not that good either.  Despite the fact that they are one mana, they aren't an early play.  What I am saying is that, yes sometimes they'll be very nice, and you'll put the Force of Will-ed Negator that you tried to ritual out on turn one back into play on turn two or three, but just as often you'll draw hands that would have been incredible, IF the stupid Unearth in your hand was a real creature spell.  

having an unearth in your opening hand is as good as a counter if you have a creature.  if you don't have a creatures it's still an cycling card.  unearth is the most underrated black card in t1 right now.  i can't explain how amazing it was for me at gencon.  it won me many games after turn 1 or 2 ritual negator only to get FoWed.  then the next turn i can unearth it and still have mana left to duress/hymn.  this card fits amazingly well in the deck.  it's also a great card to take out for an important sb card that you must play.

on day 1 and 2 of gencon i played with the specters and the disruption that they offered just wasn't fast enough to deal with any of the decks i needed them to be good against. i know that hippie is probably the best disruption in the deck but in the metagame we were playing in it just wasn't fast enough.  wretch and hippie are being traded in and out of the deck right now depending on what the metagame looks like.

bloodmoon and null rod are among the best mana denial in t1 right now but the splash was mainly meant for the rack and ruins.  after being crushed by stax the first 2 days of gencon we had to decide between bettering my matches vs non-artifact decks and losing horribly to stax.  so i borrowed the badlands and fetches from milton and ruboonia and red was added.  red worked great for me but i would still consider a different color to splash if anyone can come up with something better than rack and ruin + bloodmoon.


play of the week:
hizzouse vs ankh sligh - game 3

me at 2 life with 1 badlands + 6 swamps + shade + wretch. rack and ruin, kaervek's spite, dark ritual in hand.

sligh at 8 life with 5 mountains + jackal pup + ensnaring bridge.  1 card in hand.

i draw demonic consultation. consult for null rod, cast null rod, rack and ruin null rod + ensnaring bridge, attack for 4, ritual, spite. GAME

[Dante]

Quote (Milton @ July 29 2003,22:04)In the World Championships Herby had some awesome plays. ...The Null Rod play to kill Ensnaring Bridge against Sligh for the win.

How does null rod stop ensnaring bridge?  it doesn't stop triggered or continuous abilities, only activated abilities?  

Bill

[Fever]

Quote (herby @ July 30 2003,11:41)this card fits amazingly well in the deck.  it's also a great card to take out for an important sb card that you must play.

Doesnt this say something about the overall power level of the card?

Unearth is decent, and i fully supported running 3 copies until the recent metagame shift. Now, i dont see any reason not to run this creatures base:

4 Negator
4 Specter
4 Shade
4 Wretch

That is plenty of creatures, you could even cut a Negator and you would still be fine. The rest of the deck is more metagame dependant, such as Null Rod vs Keg, but its fairly straightforward.

[herby]

Fever:
unearth is an amazing filler card as it doesn't do anything by itself.  so it doesn't have any real 'power' but it is an amazing card in the deck.  if you need to put in a SB card you can always take out unearth because it's filler.

i'm not going to address the creature base right now since i'm not decided myself on what it should be.

[wuaffiliate]

ive been using that creature base for over a week now and its just killer. along with unearth i have such a high threat density its not funny . although i find unearth just killer with even 16 creatures, its the first slot im looking at to metagame more.

i think in my build:
-3 unearth
+1 Null Rod
+2 Diabolic Edict

OR

-3 Unearth
-1 Necropotence
+4 Sinkhole

these may be more be more effective than unearth. but testing will see.

i dont splash so im trying some black/artifact tech for dealing with stax(nightmare match). so far im SBing 4 Kill Switch to test so if anyone feels like playin some matches get on irc .

[Dante]

Quote (wuaffiliate @ July 30 2003,13:56)i dont splash so im trying some black/artifact tech for dealing with stax(nightmare match). so far im SBing 4 Kill Switch to test so if anyone feels like playin some matches get on irc .

Kill switch/tapping doesn't really stop tangle wire or smokestack though.  They'll just build counters on smokestack to get rid of it so they can play their win conditions.

Dante

[wuaffiliate]

Quote (Dante @ July 30 2003,11:44)

Quote (Milton @ July 29 2003,22:04)In the World Championships Herby had some awesome plays. ...The Null Rod play to kill Ensnaring Bridge against Sligh for the win.

How does null rod stop ensnaring bridge?  it doesn't stop triggered or continuous abilities, only activated abilities?  

Bill

he needed rod to use rack and ruin 2 targets ya know.

also switch is just in testing and should let me stall enough to squeak in a win in theory. but i need to test it extensively.

[Os-Vegeta]

Splashing green in Sui:

Adding green really is not the way to go for Sui.  It turns Sui into PT Funk, which is an aggro-control deck that, at least right now, is badly wanting the best of both worlds, and it obviously can't do it.  The green elements that have been splashed into recent Void builds have all been more controlling, which are well-suited to Void because Void is a control deck. I know, I'm most likely being quite obvious here, but the point I'm trying to make, which is one I'm seeing some members of the Vintage community have not realized, is that Sui cannot survive if players keep trying to do with Sui what I did with Void, which was simply splash the green elements needed.  Sui is really just too aggressive and relies more on being disruptive and very proactive than anything else.  

Quote Don't try to turn Suicide into a more complex deck than it is.  Perhaps one day someone (or even me, who knows) will find something worth splashing for, but it hasn't happened yet and isn't very likely to happen anytime soon.  Suicide is straightfoward and has its great hands and terrible ones--by it's nature it isn't a deck that is meant to answer threats and pull itself out from the maw of doom.

Amen!  Actually, for at least the past month a couple teammates of mine and I have been working on a successful red splash in Sui, and I'm hoping to present it soon.  I'm not presenting it in this thread because:
 1) Last time I presented a deck it didn't get much real attention until the article got published.
 2) It's going to be a nice sized write-up, not to mention it's really a much more unique build than the other BR Sui builds, so I feel it deserves its own thread.

[Methuselahn]

I'm not totally convinced that splashing a tad of green into sui for deeds and naturalize totally transforms mono-black into a control deck from a proactive deck.    Adding the green gives you enchantment removal obviously, this is the sole reason to add green over red.  It gives you 4+ options at removing enchantments in addition to Duress.

I've tried adding red to sui (pre-gush restriction) because of misdirection (the bloodmoons vs sinkholes).  My build used 3 bloodmoon, 4 bolts, 4 burning wishes, and X artifact destruction maindecked.  While Bloodmoon does a good job hosing nonbasics, it is redundant in a black, yet it's a different color.  We all know the penalty for splashing a color to add redundancy in suicide.  When it is for disrupting mana bases, it's just not worth it, imo.  Another example is Red Blasts.  They are another weak sb option for black, because mono black already does a fine job against blue in comparison.

Quote Suicide is straightfoward and has its great hands and terrible ones--by it's nature it isn't a deck that is meant to answer threats and pull itself out from the maw of doom.

Well, if it wants to make it past T8, it's gonna have to.

If you really want suicide to evolve, you will add 4 illusionary masks to it.

I eagerly anticipate this BR build.  I hope you prove my theory on green wrong.  As always, good luck.  

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote I'm not totally convinced that splashing a tad of green into sui for deeds and naturalize totally transforms mono-black into a control deck from a proactive deck.    Adding the green gives you enchantment removal obviously, this is the sole reason to add green over red.  It gives you 4+ options at removing enchantments in addition to Duress.

Actually, the green splash, at least with Void, was to deal with the artifact decks.  With Void, you can afford to run green because you know you'll be able to seal the game with a Nether Void after sweeping with Deed.  With Sui, it's much different.  You have no game sealer, so you need a more permanent form of removal.  Against any of the Rector-based decks, if you see one of their enchantments out, which is pretty much always Bargain first, then you've already lost.

  

Quote Another example is Red Blasts.  They are another weak sb option for black, because mono black already does a fine job against blue in comparison.

While this may hold true for the Keeper matchup, I don't believe for a second that Sui has little or no problems with Hulk.

[MarkPharaoh]

Quote Adding the green gives you enchantment removal obviously, this is the sole reason to add green over red.  It gives you 4+ options at removing enchantments in addition to Duress.

Yes, Green removes artifacts and enchantments, but red stops them from  even hitting play.  Red has to offer Gorilla Shaman to completely screw over combo decks in combination with hand, land AND graveyard disruption.  Shaman, Wretch, Duress, Hymn, Moon, Sinkhole, and others can give any deck a headache.  

Not to mention that red can completely turn your horrid matchup (TnT) into a favorable one.  Shaman screws with his artifact mana producers, R&R removes it's fat and Wretch removes them from the game, when you are able to play atleast 2 out of 3 of these cards against TnT, you are going to give them problems. Yes, green has Naturalize, but I think R&R is superior then it in this matchup, and with Deed, your killing your guys as well, but with cards like Shaman, Wretch and R&R you remove their threats while preserving yours.

[Melmoth]

-->In fact, no optimal build of Suicide would include Null Rod.  

I would say that every Suicide deck worth it's salt should be playing 3 Null Rods.  Null Rod is good against all the decks you play Suicide Black in hopes of beating.