White Weenie after Mirrodin

[Gabethebabe]

Quote (Bastian @ Sep. 22 2003,12:17)

Quote I´d put Chalice in the SB.

What's the point of using Chalice when using Gorilla Shaman maindeck? Not to mention the chalice is only good in WW if you get it early on and that otherwise the deck will hardly have enough mana to play it with the counters it needs to be disruptive.

Chalice is a powerful card, but definitly not as a way to stop moxes. If you get it early on, sure, but otherwise it's a dead card.

Chalice > Gorilla Shaman and Chalice > True Believer vs combo.

Chalice stops 12 mana sources in Klong to get onto the table, you need one hell of a hungry Shaman to eat all that and Shaman doesn´t prevent those artifacts from tapping for mana, Chalice does.

But as Zherbus says, WW doesn´t try to beat combo, I will withdraw from this discussion.

[Bastian]

His WW might not be trying to go on that route. I am. True Believers seem a good SB choice and along with shamans I get 8 cards that can give combo fits.

Either way... You need to play chalice before the opponent has artifact mana in play, otherwise it won't have any effect and shaman can deal with those even after they get played. The Chalice is a more situational card and therefore more limited.

[Zherbus]

Actually, I would tend to side with Gabe here in theory: Chalice is probably your best bet against Long.dec. I just chose to ignore it since it'll be even more rare than it is now with Chalice running around everywhere.

[Bastian]

Quote Actually, I would tend to side with Gabe here in theory: Chalice is probably your best bet against Long.dec. I just chose to ignore it since it'll be even more rare than it is now with Chalice running around everywhere.

Eh? Et tu, Zherbus?

[Zherbus]

Well, look at your solution. You are worrying about the bullet and not the guy aiming the gun. I'd rather him just NOT get rolling or spend crucial turns trying to get rolling, than to hope to get lucky with a creature that won't hit until a typical turn 2.

[Bastian]

You do have a point, but I still think that the Chalice is too situational on what concerns stopping moxes. Otherwise it's a great card vs sligh and suicide black, if you manage to get it fast enough.

[Gabethebabe]

Quote (Bastian @ Sep. 22 2003,13:52)

Quote Actually, I would tend to side with Gabe here in theory: Chalice is probably your best bet against Long.dec. I just chose to ignore it since it'll be even more rare than it is now with Chalice running around everywhere.

Eh? Et tu, Zherbus?

Bastian: When they are playing Tendrils, they often hold on to their 0-mana artifacts to up the spell count when they go off. If you play Chalice and they know it, they will be nervous because they have to choose between playing their mana and not hoping that a hungry Shaman passes or they have to hold on and hope you don´t drop Chalice.

Shaman alone really doesn´t help you, because how much artifacts can he eat in, say, 3-4 turns (if you are lucky).

Chalice. This is the card that will kill Long, it will hurt combo a lot and I foresee it a SB of choice in many decks. It slows combo A LOT.

Hey, I said I would withdraw from this discussion. Well, call me a liar.\n\n

[Bastian]

Quote Bastian: When they are playing Tendrils, they often hold on to their 0-mana artifacts to up the spell count when they go off.

Well, now you're making sense:)

Living and learning I suppose...

But how about other combo decks? Academy, Rector-Trix? I know academy rarely gets played, but even rector trix sees some play and they surely don't need to drop their moxes early on...\n\n

[Rico Suave]

The thing with any combo deck is that you need to stop the engine.

If you sit on True Believer, nothing is stopping them from drawing their entire deck.  Once they've drawn their entire deck, they can simply cast one spell to remove True Believer (whether it's Rushing River or they have to Wish for a removal spell), and you're toast.  

With Chalice, they are unable to get their engine moving because they are missing half their mana.  It's nearly impossible to get anything working right under those circumstances, and as a result they can't even get their removal, let alone go off in time.

That's true with Academy, Rector-Trix, or any combo.  The engine is more important than simply whatever does the winning.  

Compare this to Balance vs. Moat.  If you're playing WW, you can Disenchant Moat and keep on rolling.  Why?  It didn't stop your "engine" of creatures, it just delayed the inevitable.  Balance, however, wrecks WW.  See the difference?

[Bastian]

Yes, but vs Academy, Rector trix, etc, if you don't get Chalice before they get moxes into play chalice is as good as dead.

So far I only see why is the artifact so good vs Long.dec, but otherwise it still seems a pretty dead card when compared to some others. I think the Chalice is overrated as a Null Rod replacement. If I get rod they can't use their mana in play nor anything they get after, Chalice is half of what Null Rod is under those circumstances. How many times do you get Chalice before they get going with the deck?

So, with no further delay, here's my WW how it now stands:


2 Devout Witness
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Savannah Lions
4 Silver Knight
4 Soltari Priest
4 Soltari Monk
3 Weathered Wayfarer

4 Bonesplitter
4 Empyrial Plate
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
2 Maze of Ith
2 Flooded Strand
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Plateau
8 Plains

SB:
3 Blood Moon
4 Rack and Ruin
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Aura of Silence
2 Powder Keg

Ok! OK! So I'm packing Chalice of the Void in the SB! That's because I aknowledge that my opponent can just bounce it back into my hand and then go off, and they need all their mana to go off, so Chalice is better than the cleric vs combo.

Hehe, so I guess Chalice is really some good:P But I still think it's being overrated.\n\n

[Dante]

Quote (Bastian @ Sep. 22 2003,11:09)So far I only see why is the artifact so good vs Long.dec, but otherwise it still seems a pretty dead card when compared to some others. I think the Chalice is overrated as a Null Rod replacement. If I get rod they can't use their mana in play nor anything they get after, Chalice is half of what Null Rod is under those circumstances. How many times do you get Chalice before they get going with the deck?

Null rod is obviously better than chalice vs long, but you only have 2 Mox, so even if it's in your opening hand, if you're not getting it out until your second turn, that might be too late.

Dante

PS the other combo decks are (as of now it seems) less relevant since Long.dec is better.  Witha lot of people packing chalices, that may change..

Dante

[Mykeatog]

Quote (Dante @ Sep. 22 2003,09:38)Null rod is obviously better than chalice vs long, but you only have 2 Mox, so even if it's in your opening hand, if you're not getting it out until your second turn, that might be too late.

PS the other combo decks are (as of now it seems) less relevant since Long.dec is better.  Witha lot of people packing chalices, that may change..

So what your saying is.. Null Rod is beter because it is too slow, AND because Chalice is format shifting? Oh.

Quote Yes, but vs Academy, Rector trix, etc, if you don't get Chalice before they get moxes into play chalice is as good as dead.

And if they get moxes into play you fucking die (let's not pretend WW has another option).

I really think that you guys should be testing the mask.

[waSP]

White Weenie doesn't tend to play many "answers."  Playing Mask of Memory serves a sifting function.  If you aren't running answers, then the Mask won't be very good as it will just be a slow curiosity.  I tested a WW/u deck that ran kind of like Fish, but ultimately it went monowhite.  The problem with the Mask in this deck is that it makes you want to run more answers.  The more answers you run, the less effective Mask will be, because of the low creature density, and vice versa.  If you had counterspells (like in fish) it would be better, but I don't think it serves a function in White Weenie.

Null Rod stops more but won't come down on turn 1 consistently.  The Rod won't come down turn 1 consistently, and that's the turn that matters.  If you're trying to hose Masticore isn't Swords better than Null Rod?  The Chalice will do what you wantit to do with more consistency than the Rod.  I think we can all agree on this (vague) statement.

[Dante]

Quote (Mykeatog @ Sep. 22 2003,15:27)

Quote (Dante @ Sep. 22 2003,09:38)Null rod is obviously better than chalice vs long, but you only have 2 Mox, so even if it's in your opening hand, if you're not getting it out until your second turn, that might be too late.

PS the other combo decks are (as of now it seems) less relevant since Long.dec is better.  Witha lot of people packing chalices, that may change..

So what your saying is.. Null Rod is beter because it is too slow, AND because Chalice is format shifting? Oh.

Sorry, let me rephrase, I wasn't clear - if you were sitting across from Long.dec and got to choose either Null Rod or Chalice to put into play, obviously null rod is better as it shuts down every artifact in the deck.

That being said, in WW with only 2 mox, you won't reliably get null rod out until your second turn, which may be too late.  So in this particular deck, chalice will be a better weapon vs. Long.dec than null rod, since you'll be able to cast it your first turn, whereas null rod won't be until second turn.  

A deck like welder MUD on the other hand will have 2 mana 1st turn a huge percent of the time, so by drawing null rod in the opening hand, there is a very good chance you will be able to cast it your first turn.

Dante\n\n

[Mykeatog]

Quote (waSP @ Sep. 22 2003,14:21)White Weenie doesn't tend to play many "answers."  Playing Mask of Memory serves a sifting function.  If you aren't running answers, then the Mask won't be very good as it will just be a slow curiosity.  I tested a WW/u deck that ran kind of like Fish, but ultimately it went monowhite.  The problem with the Mask in this deck is that it makes you want to run more answers.  The more answers you run, the less effective Mask will be, because of the low creature density, and vice versa.  If you had counterspells (like in fish) it would be better, but I don't think it serves a function in White Weenie.

Is it time that we rethink the strategy a little then? If ANY deck wants to win it has to run answers. IT HAS TO. If we are trying to take WW out from the 'cute casual' pile, and put it into the rugedly top notch decks, we are going to have to use some god damned answers. This card is slower than Curiousity (which isn't white) quantitatively, but if you have a solid main deck, then not qualitative. Saying that WW doesn't run answers so it does need to be finding its best cards is down right retarded. To break down your theory, why run Recall when you can just have another Decree of Justice? We need to stop thinking in the outdated single minded strategy triangle, and bring WW to power knowing that it has the answers for any permanent in play.

[Bastian]

Your will to make the deck better is really touching, and I love to see someone speaking like that.

To play a WW with answers you'd need something like Enlightened WW like the ones used in extended worlds. Mask is bad because it doesn't make WW faster as it should be and it's not enlightened tutor either.

With tutor restricted and since equipment gives the deck the chance to have creatures able to beat beasts like the ones tubbies uses and to be faster than before, it's empyrial plate and bonesplitter that get the choice over mask.

I think it's that simple.\n\n

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Mykeatog @ Sep. 22 2003,20:10)We need to stop thinking in the outdated single minded strategy triangle, and bring WW to power knowing that it has the answers for any permanent in play.

The permanents aren't the problem.  The problem is what does WW do about Mana Drain?  Or Ancestral?  Or Mind Twist?  Or Will?  Or Balance?

Those are all back-breaking spells, not permanents.  

I think it's a wonderful idea you have, but difficult to apply.  Answers are also reactive too, so you could get StP when they drop Sphere, or Seal when they drop Tog.  

But the biggest problem I think WW has is that it can't do enough in the first couple turns--when it counts.  If the game goes to like 5-6 turns, it can gain a foothold and slug it out.  But WW only gets to cast 2, maximum 3 spells in the first couple turns, whereas most winning decks can easily double that.  And keep in mind that those winning decks are not only casting more spells, but the spells are better too.  WW just doesn't have the early game mana to cast all of it's crucial spells in time.

For example, where would suicide be without the mana boost of Dark Ritual?  WW is in that boat.  Chrome Mox could help to solve that and basically provide a Time Walk in mana development, but there's always a price.

[Bastian]

I tried Chrome Mox in WW. First I tried a couple and then I passed to one and then to none. I think it sucks because you need to build your threats and you're discarding either more threats or spells you'll really need later on, so it's really really not that good. In Parfait I think it can get a spot or two, because the deck can stall the game, but in WW it sucks big time.\n\n

[Mykeatog]

Quote The permanents aren't the problem.  The problem is what does WW do about Mana Drain?  Or Ancestral?  Or Mind Twist?  Or Will?  Or Balance?

The ONLY color that can deal with shit on the stack is blue (not counting red cards that are theoretically...blue). White Weenie doesn't need to stop these cards as much as it needs to be able to survive them. Artifacts are a great help. ANY SPELL can be mana drained, pointing out that white spells can also be mana drained does not help anything. If you are trying to say that WW isn't as good as the decks using these cards, we already knew that too. That is what this thread is about, lets stop thinking 'how can I trump the guy who just posted?' and start thinking 'how can I post something that will help to make WW better.'

Quote I think it's a wonderful idea you have, but difficult to apply.  Answers are also reactive too, so you could get StP when they drop Sphere, or Seal when they drop Tog.  

This arguement is jsut as retarded as the arguements used against mask earlier in the thread. There is a chance you will draw the wrong answer at the wrong time... ... ... honestly, that is WHY EVERY DECK LOSES EVERY GAME THAT IT LOSES. Thank you for letting me know that I can lose games based on the fact that I got the wrong cards.

Quote But the biggest problem I think WW has is that it can't do enough in the first couple turns--when it counts.  If the game goes to like 5-6 turns, it can gain a foothold and slug it out.  But WW only gets to cast 2, maximum 3 spells in the first couple turns, whereas most winning decks can easily double that.  And keep in mind that those winning decks are not only casting more spells, but the spells are better too.  WW just doesn't have the early game mana to cast all of it's crucial spells in time.

Here you are on to something that might be the key of unlocking the deck. Historically WW has run many creatures with the casting cost of WW. This has shut down the mana base, and stopped the deck from developting faster. So lets bend the damned spoon, and stop using 20 WW costed guys. With all these new equipment, can we end turn 1 with a guy and a weapon? That is what WW needs. When you mention Chrome mox you are thinking in the right field, but how can we incorperate the broken moxen instead?

At first I thought Zherbus's build was irrational, and oddball. Through recent playtesting, and play I am starting to understand more and more some of the card interactions. Right now the only thing I am looking for is the WW bomb. I need a card that is in White that can have the same devestating impact as duress can, even if it is an equipped ability.

I don't mean to be flaming anyone, I am only trying to sift through the unneeded comments, and get down to what this shit is about-- breaking white.\n\n

[Bastian]

Quote The ONLY color that can deal with shit on the stack is blue (not counting red cards that are theoretically...blue).

Actually black can do that too. Almost. For some reason Duress and Cabal Therapy are so popular right now.

Quote I don't mean to be flaming anyone, I am only trying to sift through the unneeded comments, and get down to what this shit is about-- breaking white.

Or at least making a white based deck as good as it can be. It's hard for a color that has so few broken cards, most of which not usable in WW, to make this deck breakable. But you're right on one thing...

Quote That is what this thread is about, lets stop thinking 'how can I trump the guy who just posted?' and start thinking 'how can I post something that will help to make WW better.'

peace!

[waSP]

I think that a build of White Weenie that splashes two colors could work.  I'd like to flesh out an idea in this thread.  I think the equipment base is good.  With more colors, you get better answers to threats, therefore Mask can get played without regret.

// Mana
        5 Plains
        4 Scrubland
        3 Flooded Strand
        3 Polluted Delta
        1 Swamp
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Sol Ring
// Creatures
        4 Soltari Trooper
        4 Raise the Alarm
        4 Auriok Steelshaper
        4 Silver Knight
        3 Soltari Emissary
// Equipment
        4 Mask of Memory
        4 Bonesplitter
// Disruption
        4 Duress
        4 Cabal Therapy
        4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard would likely include 4 Chalices, some number of Orim's Chants, and some Serenity/Seal of Cleansing slots.  Loxodon Warhammer looks kind of cool against sligh if you get the mana fast enough.  What do you guys think?

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Mykeatog @ Sep. 22 2003,21:38)This arguement is jsut as retarded as the arguements used against mask earlier in the thread. There is a chance you will draw the wrong answer at the wrong time... ... ... honestly, that is WHY EVERY DECK LOSES EVERY GAME THAT IT LOSES. Thank you for letting me know that I can lose games based on the fact that I got the wrong cards.

You missed the point.  You are more likely to get the wrong cards if you run reactive answers.  

For example, Keeper can often draw StP while Tog has Intuition-->Deep Anal.  Keeper had the wrong answer, but Tog's Intuition is always a good threat.  

Answers are fine, but you can keep the current "answer" count the same, there's no need to up the number of reactive cards.  If anything, you could lower that number and use Mask to find them in the same way Necro decks could run like 8 creatures.

Oh, and the comment on spells hurting WW was only meant to discover a weakness and try to correct it.  I think it would benefit WW if it could find some way to go about dealing with those aforementioned spellss (in other words, use disruption).

You apparently missed my intentions, I WAS trying to improve WW, but we need to know what's truly wrong with it before we could fix it.

[Carlos El Salvador]

Are swords needed very much in t1 right now?  I know it gets rid of tog... but I'd rather have an honorable passage over swords for that, which I am sure that we could just run SB...  for the tog matchup.  I know I don't post in t1 a lot, it's because I don't get to play t1 a lot, but I know how the top decks work, so I do know that swords really dosn't matter...  seems like running SB swords, or honorable passage, would give the main deck more hate VS the decks that matter - Long.dec and Welder MUD.  I know Tog matters, but, shouldn't we be focusing on trying to beat all three decks?

[Blofeld]

Quote (Mykeatog @ Sep. 22 2003,18:38)...So lets bend the damned spoon, and stop using 20 WW costed guys. With all these new equipment, can we end turn 1 with a guy and a weapon? That is what WW needs. When you mention Chrome mox you are thinking in the right field, but how can we incorperate the broken moxen instead?

It sounds like adding off color Moxen to pay for equipment, while putting out small efficient WHITE dudes is the way to go then?

If this is our game-plan - to get out a guy an slam a Plate or an Axe on him fast to let the beatings begin, then why are we playing white ? Red/Green (and black) have always the colors for mindless aggression.

EDIT: It might not really show, but I actually agree with what you're saying Mykeatog..

What I feel needs to be done is to rediscover which strengths white has over the other colors in this fast beatdown race. It probably includes some powerful enchantments and extremely efficient cheap spells.

Lets think outside the box - White is good at what ?:
 - Maybe Orim's Chant could help us buy a turn in the early game. It is hardly a Duress, but if used aggressively (not on our own turn like Parfait would, but in our opponents upkeep) it would stop some crazyness to allow us to build a board of dudes/battlegear.
 - Aura Of Silence makes Long.dec and Welding decks slower, if it can resolve. Making it resolve is the problem of course. Hardly and aggressive spell either - but I agree that we DO need these kind of answers, and white has some pretty nice ones! ("New arcane Lab", Sacred Ground, Sphere of Grace/Law, etc.)
 - White is known for it's great reset buttons - could this be worked into the game plan ? resolving an Armageddon (old school style) or dropping a Cataclysm with a Land Tax, Empyrial Plate, Savannah Lion and Plains in play could still be huge...
 - White has a lot of "mass pump" effects - how could these improve the hard matchups ?

I'm not sure how it would affect the deck and it's strategy, but I'm certain that focusing on what makes white better than a red or green beatdown deck, is the key to making this function. Adding equipment is nice and all - but small red and green men could use Bonesplitter just as well, eh ? Why are white axe-wielding dorks better than green ones ? (or even blue ones ?!?)

I know this post didn't bring too many answers or any solutions - just trying to carve to the bone of the problem here.\n\n

[Bastian]

Quote If this is our game-plan - to get out a guy an slam a Plate or an Axe on him fast to let the beatings begin, then why are we playing white ?

You already answered that. Because white is such a versatile color able to deal with so many threats present in the format right now. So making white the primary color gives you access to efficient weenies which are hard to destroy and have evasive abilities, if needed so, to make them unblockable. This makes them last longer and makes them efficient equipment wielders.

...orr because this is really just about WW and we really really want to revive the deck:)

[waSP]

Swords is good against Welder Mud.  Admitted, its bad against Long, but besides from running maindeck Chants or Abeyances to slow them from comboing, but that would weaken your maindeck too much.

Carlos, you run Swords so you can win a majority of ALL matchups.  It wins random games against Rector, is a house against aggro (Tubbies and other), and can catch a Morphling player unaware.  Yes, the card is weak against Long, but if you're playing against that deck, you won't get the chance to play most of the cards in your hand if you aren't going to win.  You'll have a maimum of about 16 cards that will affect that matchup.

Have Wastelands been rejected from your builds for a reason?  I find that Wasteland is very difficult to play in a 2 color version, but a monowhite build should probably include the full set of strips.

The creature base I run is to avoid getting land/colorscrewed.  It seems strange in a near mono-colored build, but..  Also it has better internal synergy.  I don't know how many of you try to race Sligh with a Soltari Priest, but that seems like an unwise gambit.  Soltari Emissary is by far the weakest, and it may very well get cut, probably for 2-3 Devout Witnesses.

Is there any reason to not play Chants maindeck?  I just love this card, but someone else can give me a reason its bad or at least why you personally don't play it.

edit: The red/green decks can't deal with things like Mask, Long.dec, Tog, where we have those tools.  Chant, Abeyance, StP are the reasons to play white.  Plus the evasive creatures are more evasive.  Better evasion allows for more room for threats (less removal needed).\n\n

[Carlos El Salvador]

I think that VS long.dec, you need to play the chant at an opportune time, right before they go off.. (Blowing a diamond when wish is on the stack is a great time for you to respond with chant)  and I think that we need to fit in the things of silence...  as they do help two of the big three matchups currently in the t1 Metagame.  Now the psychatog matchup, we just need to catch the tog player while the psychatog is swinging probibly, as long as your hand hasn't been pillaged by duresses...  Orim's Chant buys a turn VS the deck, while Swords plays a key role as spot removal, but you need it in your hand.  With these three matches in mind, I think the best way to find answers quickly is to use mask of memory.  I know it seems slow, but it really is better than curiosity when it comes to card drawing.  This is where all three of those decks trump White weenie.  they can draw into brokeness - combo faster than we can draw into answers.

My Two cents.

[Zherbus]

I fixed the decklist (found on page 1) after Westredale did some playtesting for me

-1 Fire, -1 Tithe
+2 STP

in the board:
-3 STP
+3 Abeyance

[Bastian]

I'm tired of testing the deck and I always come across the same questions:

How can I fight TNT?
How can I fight Madness?

If I try to adapt the deck to fight back a certain decktype I'll surely weaken it vs other matchups, so the remaining question is:

Is White Weenie worth playing? I'm tired of testing the deck and seeing it loses more than it wins, far more. Shouldn't we just let the deck RIP? It's great in extended, it may have a potential in the new standard, it can be solid in 1.5, it downright sucks in type 1! It loses far more than it wins to be worth the trouble.

I had to make so many changes to the deck to make it able to fight back the post-Mirrodin environment and the possible dominance of Chalice of the Void that the deck seems weaker than before.
I'm tired of just seeing suggestions and card lists but no deck results. How it does vs predominant decks, etc... Just theory! I've had a lot of work so far with the deck, I love it, but I think it's pretty much dead. The format has evoluted beyond the possibility of White Weenie to even exist.

Trying to keep up the deck alive is becoming more an act of faith and good will rather than good judgement and common sense.

[Zherbus]

Quote How can I fight TNT?

How can you fight Prosper Bloom? Seriously, half of the problem with the way people build is that they worry about things that they shouldn't. Either some matches (I.E. combo) are just a lost cause and would require too much resources to beat or some matches just won't exist enough to warrant any real deck alteration.

I think Mud and Control will be what'll be left after the smoke clears, and based on that prediction I built Holy Tommy Gun the way that I did. If I am wrong and combo makes an awesome presence or something, then you either give up or build differently.