Unstable Riders

[pernicious dude]

Some of the Hadley folk have been discussing Power Conduit.
It turns cumulative upkeep and -1/-1 counters into +1/+1 counters.
It can also move counters up or down on Chalice Of The Void
and reduce the counters on Powder Keg if I've bumped it too far.

Moobius mentioned Fish with Mask Of Memory instead of Curiosity.
This requires dropping Null Rod, which means you lose to Triskelion, Cursed Scroll, Powder Keg, Masticore, etc.
Fish also doesn't want to spend 3 on that first Curiosity,
what with CIPT lands and all the activation costs.

Mask Of Memory wants to live in a deck with undercosted evasive creaturs that aren't weenies.
Leaving the Fish behind means freeing up activation mana,
and leaving the Null Rod behind means being able to run Tormod's Crypt.
Fish's options for graveyard hate are nil.

I filtered Magic Suitcase for "cumulative or counter" and some of my favorite old cards popped out.

This deck aims to put out an early evasive 6/7 creature and make it bigger every turn.
It has beats, proactive and reactive counters, and lots of card draw.

Unstable Riders

mana - 21
3 Island
3 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring

men - 10
4 Varchild's War-Riders - 3/4 trample rampage for 1R, upkeep opponent gets a 1/1 guy and the Riders get a +1/+1 counter
4 Serendib Efreet - may have finally found a home
2 Gorilla Shaman - Chalice Monkeys

toys - 11
4 Power Conduit
4 Unstable Mutation - +3/+3, then +1/+1 every turn
3 Copy Artifact - more Conduits, Sol Rings, Kegs, Factories, whatever

drawing - 6
2 Mask Of Memory - Curiosity plus
3 Mystic Remora - amazing card
1 Ancestral Recall

answers - 8
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Powder keg
4 Force Of Will
3 Fire/Ice

I'm sure there's a better deck hiding in here.
Anybody want to help me find it?\n\n

[Matt The Great]

Ancestral Knowledge?

You could sideboard Illusions of Grandeur.

I love this deck.

[pernicious dude]

Actually, six sideboard slots I've been toying with are
2 Illusions
2 Donate
2 Ancestral Knowledge
Glacial Chasm also relates.
I'm not sure how much trouble I'll have with aggro, though.

Other interesting toys, aside from the usual Fish complement,
are Cursed Totem, for Fish, Tog, and Welder,
and Illusionary Terrain, which destroys mono decks all by itself.

[Gabethebabe]

Hehehehe

What´s wrong with Time Walk?

This deck centers around Power Conduit, you will have to be able to cast it every game, or you are sitting with a lot of suboptimal permanents.

[S0F3N]

Could tinker be useful?  I just figure that you have the moxes to sack, might serve as a 5th power conduit.  Also I am not really sure how power conduit works with Varchilds War-Riders in that you get the 1/1's.

Varchild's War-Riders
Trample, Rampage 1
Cumulative upkeep-Put a 1/1 red Survivor creature token into play under an opponent's control.

I am under the impression that you use power conduit to remove the cumulative upkeep counters and make +1/+1, and in that you reset the cumulative upkeep count, but how does this allow in the case of Varchild's War-Riders, allow you to get the dudes?  I think if I can understand how that works, it might allow me and possibly others to think of some other wild and crazy cards
Thnx - Deck looks pretty good, and I am excited to build and test it out.

[pernicious dude]

Opponent still gets the dude ("you get" as opposed to "I get"),
but just one or two a turn, instead of an increasing number.
Decklist comment edited for clarity.

The only card that's sub-par without Power Conduit is the War-Riders,
and they have the handy ability of going away
if it looks like they're going to get out of control.
You really don't want three upkeep counters on your War-Riders,
unless Keg's on the table and Power Conduit's in hand.

An Unstable Serendib is still a four turn clock,
with the help of a couple fetchlands on their side.
Many decks do six or eight to themselves in the course of normal business.

Tinker's interesting.
Multiple Conduits are very good.
Tinker fetches one even with Chalice at 2 holding Null Rod, Naturalize and Mana Drain at bay.

Nothing wrong with Time Walk, or Stifle, or Anger, or...
It's just that there's already a dozen other cards I want to fit in.\n\n

[rozetta]

Wow! I like this

Hey, do the +1/+1 counters stay on Mishra's Factories if they're put there by the conduits?

Also, with all the artifacts in the deck, would Sculpting Steel (the new artifact version of copy artifact) and maybe workshops be worth a thought?

Actually, with that in mind, what about welders (nice tricks with mask of memory, mishra's factories, etc.) in the place of mox monkeys?  

[westredale]

This deck is way way to slow!!!

[hulk3rules]

Quote (westredale @ Oct. 10 2003,15:03)This deck is way way to slow!!!

You play fish.  How is fish any faster then this deck??

[urza's child]

Quote (hulk3rules @ Oct. 10 2003,15:10)

Quote (westredale @ Oct. 10 2003,15:03)This deck is way way to slow!!!

You play fish.  How is fish any faster then this deck??

fishies can swim, big bulky artifacts sink

swimming > sinking

[pernicious dude]

Welders may be on the side.
I have few ways to put artifacts into my graveyard.
Mox Monkeys are really good.

+1/+1 stays on Factory awaiting the next activation.

-1 Copy Artifact, -1 Mystic Remora
+1 Tinker, +1 Time Walk

flying/trampling 6/7s > swimming 1/1s
As a Fish player, I'm not sure I'd enjoy sitting across from this.\n\n

[Razor]

Looks like a great start.

Goblin Sharpshooter can keep the Survivors at bay all on his ownsome just in case....

Go rogue deckbuilders!

[pernicious dude]

Sharpshooter's funny.
Caltrops'd work, too.
Wrecks Keeper's Soldiers and Goblin Soldiers, too.
Poor Zherbus will be forced to make Angels.

My decks always get bad when I try to ameliorate some bad card's drawback.
Better just to kill the opponent before the Survivors get out of hand.

[Razor]

This post will focus on abusing several cumulative upkeep cards with Power Conduit as noted in the earlier thread.  From the onset I question whether using 12 otherwise weak cumulative upkeep cards (ie.Unstable Mutation, Mystic Remora, Varchild's War-Riders) can be offset enough with the use of 4 Power Conduits.

I have been watching Special_K abuse players with his Mystic Remora Keeper variant of late.  I agreed with Toad's statement here that Mystic Remora is inherently more of an Aggro-Control card than it is a control card: "Mystic Remora is more an Aggro Control drawing engine, because you plan on winning fast, and thus the drawback is not that annoying."

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....y159985

That noted, I think that Mystic Remora could easily be used as alternate Standstills in decks similar to: Landstill and Gay Fish.  However, I want to drop the counterspells in lieu of different disruption, namely Blood Moon, Gorilla Shaman and Ankh of Mishra, all of which cripple some of the top decks.

Just as I began considering which forum to post this untested draft-list I remembered this 'old' Mirrodin post and decided to share my take on a *possibly* competitive + rogue UR almost-all-out-Aggro-hate deck.

I think that Mytic Remora requires full power (ie.off-coloured moxen) to suport it's cumulative upkeep demands in the abscence of Power Conduit.  Blood Moon, 'Dibs, Wheel and 'Twister will benefit from full power (ie.all 5 moxen), and will be nice turn 1 drops.

I am concerned that Mana Crypt, Ankh and Serendib Efreet life-loss will add up too fast.  If so, I may have to drop Mana Crypt and/or Ankhs in lieu of other hate such as: Tangle Wire [bad with Remoras], Sphere of Resistance [bad synergy with our Remoras?], Winter Orb [bad synergy with Remoras], Price of Progress, Back to Basics, or by adding 1-2 Zuran Orb [which is inherently at odds with Aggro mindset].  Pyrostatic Pillar [weak versus Dragon] causes a similar life-loss problem.  Got any other hate I should consider in here?

If the Ankhs need to come out, I could swap them for these great cards to improve the deck's performance: Wastelands, Ophidians, Fire/Ice, or Force of Will.

Lastly, it is perhaps noteworthy that, especially without counter or bounce back-up, this deck is quite vulnerable to hate including: Null Rods, Powder Keg and Challice of the Void.  RE: CotV, its casting curve is only slightly varied, as follows:

0 cc: 7
1 cc: 15
2 cs: 13
3 cc: 10
4 cc: 0

Sadly, by printing CotV and failing to restrict Mana Drain Wizards R+D has put all Aggro deckbuilders in a worse bind than ever before.  For even as Aggro deckbuilders try to minimize their vulnerabilty to Keg/CotV hate by varying [read: increasing] their casting curves they risk giving Control decks more mana via Mana Drain.

//Name: UR-Power-Zoo v.1.1
//2003-Dec-05
//Cards: 62
//
//Mana: 25
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island
6 Mountain
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt***
1 Strip Mine
//
//Threats: 17
4 Gorilla Shaman [eats opposing moxen and Challices]
4 Varchild's war-riders [bad upkeep counters; 3/4 Trample]
4 Serendib Efreets [only threat with evasion, 3/4 Flyer]
4 Unstable Mutation [bad upkeep counters]
1 Black Vise [will you survive stalling my Remora?]
//
//Control: 8
4 Blood Moon [hate]
4 Ankh of Mishra [esp.good versus Dragon and decks with Fetchies]
//
//Combo: 4
4 Power Conduit [fix bad upkeep counters]
//
//Draw: 8
4 Mystic Remora [bad upkeep counters]
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Wheel of Fortune [good with moxen + Vise]
1 Timetwister [good with Moxen + Vise]
//
//Sideboard: 15
3 Red Elemental Blast [good vs. Control]
3 Rack and Ruin [good vs. Artifact.dec]
3 Tormod's Crpyt [good vs.Dragon]
3 Stifle [good vs.Dragon]
3 Fire/Ice [good vs.Standstill + Aggro]
//
//Considerations:
0 Wasteland [blood moon enuf?]
0 Sphere of Resistance [bad synergy with our Remorae?]
0 Force of Will [!]
0 Zuran Orb
0 Dwarven Miner
0 Ophidian
0 Tangle Wire [good if we drop Remora which taps us out even more]
0 Misdirection [good vs.Control
0 Price of Progress
0 Pyrostatic Pillar [good versus Academy, + Tendrils]
0 Fetchies [bad with Ankh]
0 Bounce spells: Chain of Vapor, etc.
0 Library of Alexandria [too fast?]
0 Frenetic Efreet
0 Mana Leak
0 Energy Flux [bad]
0 Arcane Lab [I like Pyrostatic Pillar better methinks]
0 Frantic Search
0 Flying Men
0 Jackal Pups
0 Powder Keg
0 CotV/Rods [bad++ with Conduits]
0 Goblin Sharpshooter??? [kill survivor tokens in absence of Conduit]
0 Cloud of Faeries
0 manlands
0 Rhystic Study\n\n

[pernicious dude]

62 cards?
C'mon, Razor, man, show some willpower.
I'd drop one Moon and one Monkey, myself.

Actually, I'm delighted to have someone re-open this.

A couple of touchup comments

Quote
4 Varchild's war-riders [bad upkeep counters]
4 Serendib Efreets [only threat with evasion]

Trample/Rampage definitely counts as evasion, especially when they happen on turn two, let alone turn one.

Quote otherwise weak cumulative upkeep cards (ie.Unstable Mutation,

An Unstable Serendib is 21 points of damage, all by his bad self.
He's a five turn clock, one turn slower than King Negator,
and you don't lose all your shit if they Bolt him.

I like the Blood Moons.
I was really fond of Masking a Mishra's Factory,
which beats the hell out of the many times I cycled Curiosity that way in Fish,
but Blood Moon may be stronger than its ever been right now.

I would suggest not obsessing with paying Mystic Remora's upkeep.
You pay U to play it.
If they do nothing, you don't draw a card.
On the other hand, they've done nothing.
You pay another 1, which of course is easier than a U.
If they do nothing again, you still don't draw a card. Boo-hoo.
If they're doing nothing, you should be kicking their ass.
Pay the upkeep once or twice and enjoy it.

I like the Vice.
On the other hand, I don't like the draw sevens.
Across the table, I lick my lips every time someone casts a draw seven,
unless they're in the middle of some stupid endless combo turn and I've been Abeyanced or Chanted or whatever.

[Razor]

This is a short reply as I'm off to work now.

My Draw-7's might say: 'Give me more cards under my Remora'.

Trample is evasion, quite right!

Unstable Mutations on any of the 7 3/4 evasion critters will mean must counter for a lotta decks it's true.

62 cards for discussion, you're quite right on your suggestion to drop 2 cards such as Monkey and Moon.

I am enjoying the idea that I can beatdown and any response, except cycling Decree, of Justice gives me cards!

[Dr. Sylvan]

My impressions:

1. I don't like the draw-7s. There's a significant chance that their grip will be much more ridiculous than yours. The Black Vise is fine due to Remora.

2. Have you thought about Grim Lavamancer? Killing Welders, Metalworkers, Curious Fishes, and opposing Shamen is always nice.

3. Of your "Considerations" list, I like Wastelands and fetches. The Ankhs to me aren't worth worsening the mana base, and Wastelands are just too nice against the top decks. Ankhs could go in the board against Dragon, maybe.

4. The fact that this is blue compels me to mention Force of Will.

5. Mana Crypt looks dangerous/superfluous to me. Maybe it just hates me, though I did win six flips in a row the other day.

5. An opponent will have trouble choosing whether to Chalice for X=1 or =2 against this deck. We have Mox Monkey (<3 my Monkeys), but how about a Shattering Pulse or two to diversify the answers? I think they would be alright maindeck in many metagames, thanks to Masknought, Scepter, Chalice, Keg, Workshop (and its associated artifacts), Null Rod, and Factories all providing good targets. When I try to think of decks with no good targets, Dragon and conventional aggro are the only ones springing to mind. Storm combo obviously wouldn't care about Pulses, but that deck doesn't care about most things we could do. Ankh Sligh has Ankh and sometimes Scroll, so not even all aggro decks are without targets. Thoughts?

My instincts:
-1 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Timetwister
-1 Wheel of Fortune
-1 Mana Crypt
-4 Ankh of Mishra
+2 Shattering Pulse
+2 Grim Lavamancer
+4 Force of Will

-2 off-color Mox
-2 Island
-2 Mountain
+2 Wasteland
+4 blue fetchlands

[Tristal]

Someone had asked if +1/+1 counters stay on Mishra's Factory after returning to a land.  The answer is yes.  I have personal experience in doing this from playing Oath, too   Swinging with 8/8 Mishra's Factories is funny.

[Razor]

At work now, so only brief post.  I think if I do test the 4 Blood Moons and 4 Ankhs main, I'll make this change:
-4 Mtn
+4 Shivan Reef

The draw-7's will not be tested, making it a 60 card build.

Thanks for the input.  It actually looks worthy of testing methinks.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Here's the ist I'm testing right now. It seems strong, but it still needs more refining.



// Mana
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        8 Island
        1 Sol Ring
        7 Mountain
        2 Shivan Reef
        4 Volcanic Island
// The Hizzouse
        2 Copy Artifact
        4 Power Conduit
// Phunky Beatz
        4 Grim Lavamancer
        4 Unstable Mutation
        1 Black Vise
        4 Varchild's War-Riders
// The Broken Control Stuff
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Force of Will
// Draw Cards...n'at
        2 Ancestral Knowledge
        4 Mystic Remora
// Board
SB:  4 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Energy Flux
SB:  3 Pyroclasm

[pernicious dude]

Zero answers to Null Rod between main and side makes me nervous.

How's Ancestral Knowledge been?

Four Riders makes an awful lot of stuff in the two mana slot.
There are a bunch of decks where you'll want to Chalice for 2.
Maybe two Riders and two 'Dibs?

[MuzzonoAmi]

Energy Flux handles artifacts nicely, I think. I haven't gotten much play against it, though, so Rack and Ruin might be better in that slot. I'm not sure about the 'Dibs. I don't want to be caught without a source of counters, and the War Riders have only gotten out of hand against Slavery.dec, when they were out of my control. Chalice for 2 is some good, but with Power Conduits you can move the counter off to play the Riders, then move it back after they resolve. I could see trying to squeeze another threat in, though. Maybe Lightning Coils could work.

Ancestral Knowldege is awesome. It's almost like Demonic Tutor...lots of fun. And it gives me more counters to move around.