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[jpmeyer]

In Maro and Buehler's columns, they say that three-card combos are acceptable.  You need three cards here: Crucible of Worlds, Zuran Orb, and Fastbond.  One of these cards is restricted.  This isn't that bad.

[Tindemans]

And, don't forget to draw another line between this combo, and a two card combo as Illusions Donate.
not only the number of needed cards changes (btw this Crucible combo really exists of 4 cards, since you need a kill card; but there are a lot usable)

however, with Illusions Donate both cards pretty much are dead, alone. you can abuse Illusions for its added life, but still.
a card as Crucible can be used for so much more, right before actually killing as a combo part. you can begin wasting opponent's land, for example, before going for it.
 
With this Crucible is the most important part of the combo; the rest, which are dead cards, can be later drawn into, or whatever. when also playing Horn of Greed you can draw into your comboparts, and abuse Exploration to do that for example. a Crucible in combination with just a Explo and a waste can be pretty deadly as well. you can waste/waste, or waste/workshop - combo part.

It sounds pretty abusable, I'll try to make up a decklist.\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

Quote Stop comparing it to combo-decks that kill on turn 1 or turn 2 cosistently.

It won't be as fast as Long
It won't throw as much direct damage as Sligh
It won't counter as much spells as control
It's an other kind of deck...

Why not compare it to that because that's what it's going to have to compete against as a combo deck.

As a normal card I'm happy with it because now I can make a decidedly more prision-ish version of Stacker 3.

Quote And it might not be a early-game card, but therefore you get to run all forms of disruption so that this card can be a game-breaker/winner on aprox turn 3 or 4.

Most decks can care less what you do on turn 4.

Quote The great thing about this card that it's almost a 1-card combo, you could even kill with lands such as Barbarian Ring or Rath's Edge.

...yeah right.    If you've already gone into a infinite loop of turns or gained a million life or something I'm sure this plan will work.

[Matt The Great]

Quote (Vegeta2711 @ Oct. 14 2003,14:06)Most decks can care less what you do on turn 4.

Not only should the 'can' be 'could' but the 'could' should be 'could not'. It's amazing how many people get this expression wrong.

Why are people trying to make a pure combo deck out of this? It's clearly more a lock/prison card.

I actually started playing around with this about a month ago. This was what I had when I stopped:

//Artifacts
        3 Isochron Scepter
        2 Crucible of Worlds
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Black Lotus

//Enchantments
        1 Fastbond
        1 Future Sight

//Sorceries
        1 Time Walk
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Balance
        1 Mind Twist
        1 Demonic Tutor

//Control instants
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
        1 Swords to Plowshares
        2 Fire/Ice
        1 Disenchant

//Card manipulation instants
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Cunning Wish
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Fact or Fiction

//Land
        2 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine

        4 Flooded Strand
        3 Tundra
        3 Underground Sea
        2 Volcanic Island
        1 Tropical Island

        1 City of Brass
        1 Tolarian Academy
//  Sideboard:

//Control
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Ebony Charm
SB:  1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Artifact Mutation
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Fire/Ice

//Drawing
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying

//Lock parts
SB:  1 Orim's Chant
SB:  1 Crop Rotation
SB:  1 Enlightened Tutor


Bear in mind that at the time Chalice of the Void was not known, so this would badly need updating. For instance, a brace of Gorilla Shaman is a virtual requirement (and would necessitate the third Volcanic, probably cutting a Sea), and Chalices would be nice to fit in. I'd probably cut Mind Twist or Future Sight or the third Scepter (maybe not Sight because it's a good Enlightened Tutor target).

Oddly enough, if you're going for a Crucible-Wasteland lock, you don't need all five Wastes, because once you have a Crucible in play, they're dead draws. Notice that with the sideboarded crop Rotation, you can easily Wish up Strip Mine. You can also Wish up Fastbond. You don't need Zuran Orb, because it's useless without Crucible. Wish->Rotate->Academy ain't half bad, either.

With Fastbond and repeated fetching, there's plenty of drain on your life total to begin with, so that's why Vampiric is not as good as Enlightened Tutor to wish for.

Be wary of a third Crucible, it was always a dead draw for me.

Sceptering an Artifact Mutation would be really sweet in a couple matchups.

Also note that beyond a Crucible/Strip Mine lock there's also a Scepter/Chant lock.\n\n

[PucktheCat]

Quote

Quote  (Vegeta2711 @ Oct. 14 2003,14:06)
Most decks can care less what you do on turn 4.

Not only should the 'can' be 'could' but the 'could' should be 'could not'. It's amazing how many people get this expression wrong.

I've got news for you Matt.  If enough people are getting it 'wrong' it's 'right.'  That's how language works.

Leo

[jpmeyer]

OH SHIT!  A CARD THAT MIGHT BE GOOD!  RESTRICT IT!

[Thug]

Quote Why not compare it to that because that's what it's going to have to compete against as a combo deck.

So, it has to kill before your opponent could in goldfishing??

Now, if you can play with Spheres, FoW and more you really can compete with them.

Quote Most decks can care less what you do on turn 4.

Not if your Duressed first turn and dropped a Sphere on your Second and Wasted one of their lands on your third...

Quote ...yeah right.    If you've already gone into a infinite loop of turns or gained a million life or something I'm sure this plan will work.

All you really need is Fastbond + ~This~ + Zuran Orb + The killer land. And once your include the possible use of Living Wish, this makes a great Wishable kill.

Quote Why are people trying to make a pure combo deck out of this? It's clearly more a lock/prison card.

'cause after the succes of some combo decks, it is all people can think about.

And people all want to restrict cards because one person started saying it,

It all comes down to the croud following the leader.

Koen

[jeek]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Oct. 14 2003,17:38)OH SHIT!  A CARD THAT MIGHT BE GOOD!  RESTRICT IT!

Oh no! A card that might be irritating to (random pet deck)! Restrict it! Ban it!

Heaven forbid someone might have to actually adapt their deck when a new expansion comes out.

[Tindemans]

Quote (PucktheCat @ Oct. 14 2003,23:20)

Quote

Quote  (Vegeta2711 @ Oct. 14 2003,14:06)
Most decks can care less what you do on turn 4.

Not only should the 'can' be 'could' but the 'could' should be 'could not'. It's amazing how many people get this expression wrong.

I've got news for you Matt.  If enough people are getting it 'wrong' it's 'right.'  That's how language works.

Leo

Not if the people getting it wrong are mostly foreigners.

[Matt The Great]

Quote (PucktheCat @ Oct. 14 2003,16:20)

Quote

Quote  (Vegeta2711 @ Oct. 14 2003,14:06)
Most decks can care less what you do on turn 4.

Not only should the 'can' be 'could' but the 'could' should be 'could not'. It's amazing how many people get this expression wrong.

I've got news for you Matt.  If enough people are getting it 'wrong' it's 'right.'  That's how language works.

Leo

This would only be true if you change the definition of 'can' and 'not'. And, you know, good luck with that.

Any comments on the actual deck/topic at hand? Has anyone else tried making a deck around this (not just sticking it in Workshop)?

[PucktheCat]

But 'couldn't care less' is a native americanism.  It has been used by native English speakers for nearly 50 years now.  It isn't going any place.  Whether it should be used in an online forum is perhaps debatable (it all depends on how formal one thinks one's writing should be in such forums - or - it all depends on how formal you think your writing should be in such forums), but it is certainly part of colloquial English.

Leo

[stelthjet]

OMG, this is so broken, Landstill.dec will own the format...

Seriously though, as a huge fan of TurboLand, i wish there were some way to break this card.  as it stands, squandered resources + fastbond + this seems the most interesting (its been a long time since someone tried to abuse squandered resources, i think we're about due).

Still, TurboLand was always complicated many piece combo to put together, and since you'd have both heavy colored mana requirements (G for fastbond/exploration, U for the requisite card draw, god knows what for kill and protection) and heavy artifact costs (Horn of greed, this) it would be clunky, easily disrupted, juicy for mana drain targets, and just plain slower then the current generation of combo decks.


The idea of making some sort of prison/control/combo deck around this seems more fertile (innovation is always cool, even if it doesnt pan out), but i would think long and hard about what possible advantage you could garner from this that you couldnt just overwhelm with the raw power and speed of the formats current contenders.

[serracollector]

why not just use more so to help with the future sight/fastbond idea, along with the old school prospbloom,  quick ruff draft:

draw
Ancestral
3 impulse
3 prosperity
2 meditate
4 horn of greed

search
d tutor
v tutor
m tutor

combo
fastbond
4 exploration
2 f sight
2 zuran orb
2 Crucible (marine corps....the memories)
3 squandered resources
2 drain life/strokegeyser

defense
4 duress


mana
7 solomxen
4 dark ritual
4 under sea
4 trop
4 sac and search
strip mine

Im sure there more "better" stuff ( how u like that for correct grammar) but its 3 am and I am tired.  good luck ppl

[Zherbus]

Moved to correct forum.