Keeper? Alive, dead, or even understood?

[Dre]

Keeper?  Alive, dead, or even understood?
My thoughts...

I've decided to write this post in order to question the ongoing discussion that has been happening about whether Keeper is alive or dead, or even whether it actually exists in accordance to it's original concept.  Clearly this topic is not an easy one to tackle.  It is complex and requires a fair bit of background knowledge.

Now I'm not saying that I know it all.  That is not the point of this article.  I don't want to step on anyone's toes either.  It's just that I believe that some of the responses to this ongoing debate are not accurate.

Now for crediblity...  I have played for years and years.  I remember back when the original deck, being 'The Deck', was first developed.  You know, the one with a disrupting scepter...  I currently still play Keeper now, and in the last 4 tournaments I have only lost 1 match.  However, I do admit that my local environment is not as competitive as some of the others that many of 'themanadrain.com' members.

Does keeper still exist?  Yes!  The original concept was control based efficiency.  Back then, as is now, the idea behind this concept was to constantly create advantages out of the situations that your opponent were creating.  The older bomb cards that are associated to keeper do not define the concept.  These older bomb cards were used because that did exactly what the concept requested, i.e. create advantage.

The discussions based on whether 'Keeper' should be associated to the decks that players see in current tournaments these days is only occuring due to the changes in card choices.  The principle is still the same.  A first turn Gorilla Shaman is not a beat stick.  It is a creature that forces an opponent into a weaker position because it has shutdown a section of his deck.  Thus virtual card advantage has been achieved.  The same can be said about all of the card choices seen in 'good' builds of the current Keeper.

Is Keeper still alive?  Yes!  This is alot harder to argue though.  There are a number of vintage players that agree with me on this subject, as well as disagree.  Issues of whether we see good builds and good players at reported tournaments clearly distorts the facts about how it is going.  Many times I have heard the arguments that discredit a players skill or build of such a complex deck archetype.  This difficulty is further enhanced by the way that Keeper can be played in different styles.

My exerience with Keeper lately is that it by far the most consistent deck in the current field.  I don't need to mulligan alot, or require a particular card early in order to function.  This is not the case with many of the other strong decks in the format.  To me this means that I can rely on it in a tournament situation, which is very important in a good deck.

Another important fact is that Keeper doesn't really have a very bad matchup in the format.  Decks that can push Keeper do have bad matchups or are unreliable.  Also, if you know your metagame, you can set Keeper to be more favourable in certain matchups by changing a couple cards.  Sometimes even just 1 card.

For the reasons above I believe that Keeper is a viable deck choice in the current Type 1 environement.  This being said, I don't think it fits everyone's play style, which is a different matter.  Some players have the skill to play aggro, combo, or control (which I include lock style).  I think that not having the playskills to win with this deck doesn't mean that the deck is bad.

I'm keen to hearing more about what people think about this subject.

[jpmeyer]

Keeper is back because it received new artifact goodies in Chalice and Scepter

[Eastman]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Oct. 27 2003,00:22)Keeper is back because it received new artifact goodies in Chalice and Scepter

yummm

[dandan]

Keeper is back as it is the deck that can select from the widest range of cards in order to find and use the most efficient solution to whatever the problem is. The debate has largely been because some people do not grasp that you can solve a problem before it occurs or after it occurs.

Oh, and it got some new toys...

[Matt The Great]

This is an interesting post, but it seems like you're taking a very long time to state only that Keeper is a good deck. We all know what Keeper does, we all know that to win requires some level of skill. The challenge is to tell us something we don't know.

For instance, what do you have to say about the various and sundry versions of Keeper out there? There's Chalice Keeper, Scepter Keeper (usually sideboarding Chalices), Keepers with both Chalice AND Scepter...and all this before you hit the variations on combo-keeper.

Chalice beats Long, but Chalice is marginal against MUD and in the increasingly-common Keeper mirror...unless you have a Keeper altered enough to use Chalice as weapon against Keeper (i.e., a Keeper unafraid to drop a Chalice at 2). One would hope that within the larger metagame there exists a smaller Keeper-on-Keeper metagame to be played. This could be the beauty of Chalice. One could imagine similar self-symmetrical metagames being played out in the Workshop and aggro parts of the metagame clock.\n\n

[Kaervek]

Quote Chalice beats Long, but Chalice is marginal against MUD and in the increasingly-common Keeper mirror...

Exactly. But you don't NEED them vs. Sligh or Long, since NOONE plays those since they're afraid of the *possibility* of the Chalice. Out of the 24 or something contestants, there were at least 8 keeper builds in yesterday's Eindhoven tourney. The only combo was Dragon (not a single Tendrils of Agony in the entire tourney) and there was, I believe, *one* Sligh build.

I honestly believe that having 3 MD Chalices is a drawback in a Keeper mirror. I faced 3(!) mirrors that day out of 6 rounds, and lost every game 1. After siding out the Chalices every game 2, I took that game every time (after which I proceeded to lose game 3 again...). I faces wMUD (which I did manage to beat) but I kept a Chalice on hand throughout most of the game. There was just no window to play it without screwing myself harder than him.

Now I am no Keeper expert, and I most certainy need to practice my mirror skillz, but as a result, I am not alltogether sure about Chalices maindeck.\n\n

[LemanRuss]

Quote My exerience with Keeper lately is that it by far the most consistent deck in the current field.

and

Quote I don't need to mulligan alot

  Do you often play against well-tuned tier 1 decks ?  If not, I'm not surprised you don't feel the need of mulligan.

Quote Does keeper still exist?

I am not sure. Before, a well-played Keeper in a mirror was hard to beat. Players have to make small card advantage step by step, without committing any mistake to have a chance to win. Now, cards like Yawgmoth's Will (wich became even more powerful with the recent changes) and Future Sight are adding random brokenness which can make your mirror match look like a coin toss (and please, anyone, don't write the following sentence: "It seems that some players are not good enough to bla bla bla…”, I know about what I am talking).

Maybe Keeper could be that “good player’s” deck” again if they ban the Will and some other stuff. Until that, it remains an excellent deck anyway.

Quote Is Keeper still alive?

Not only the deck named “Keeper” is still alive, but it performs incredibly well.

Quote Another important fact is that Keeper doesn't really have a very bad matchup in the format.  Decks that can push Keeper do have bad matchups or are unreliable.  Also, if you know your metagame, you can set Keeper to be more favourable in certain matchups by changing a couple cards.  Sometimes even just 1 card.

Wait until you play against my new TnT decklist before telling us it has no bad matchups. But I agree that Keeper often has it chances against any kind of deck; that is why it remains the deck I prefer to play.
 

[jntemp777]

I agree with Kaervek that the MD Chalice just does not work to Keeper's favor consistently enough.  

Sideboarded vs Long on games 2 and 3(I'm assuming auto loss on game 1 cause, come on, Long just rolls over pre sideboard Keeper most of the time) is fine because you're just going to drop them for 0 after removing a mox or two.  But Chalice for 1 or 2 is just horrible most of the time for the Keeper player.  

I have none MD and I am usually cringing when Chalice of MUD drops Chalice for 1cc-2cc and I have no monkey on the table or a resolved ancestral.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Eastman @ Oct. 27 2003,00:58)

Quote (jpmeyer @ Oct. 27 2003,00:22)Keeper is back because it received new artifact goodies in Chalice and Scepter

yummm

Quote jpmeyer
everyone's favorite paragon


Group: Moderator
Posts: 1983
Joined: June 2002   
Posted: Sep. 16 2003,13:55        

The question is not "Is Keeper dead?"  The question is "SHOULD Keeper be dead?"

From initial testing of November T1, I think there will end up being a happy ending for Keeper after all.

\n\n

[Dre]

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far.  Now...

@Matt the Great
I believe that the forums here are read by a wider audience than just the well experienced, good Keeper players.  Some of the debates I have seen, such as the, 'Is Keeper's Time Up?' topic in the Extreme Vintage Forum, have shown that the argument I have raised here is not as obvious to all of our fellow members.

I do appreciate your comments about furthering the debate to discuss finer details of the different builds that are appearing now that Mirrodin is legal.  I just wanted to avoid discussing something which I guess I haven't quite tested enough yet to have something that I'd like to contribute yet.


@LemanRuss
I think that you may have misunderstood what I meant by not needing to mulligan alot.  To put it another way, I feel that the need to mulligan when playing Keeper is relatively lower.  Yes I do need to mulligan occasionally.

As to your comments about broken cards making it more random, sure I agree with you.  Years ago the options for creating massive advantage with a single card were rarer and you did have to work harder to make it happen.  But I don't understand how this relates to the topic I raised.


To everyone
I'm not sure as to how effective Chalice of the Void is in Keeper right now.  I don't mean that the card is a crap choice, but I don't think the balance of main/side is as clear as some players say.  One of the reasons I say this is because I find that it can hurt you more than it helps in certain matchups.  I know this point could be obvious to some.


Ways to use Chalice
1.  Silver Bullet approach, i.e. have only one in the deck and find it when the matchup requires it.  At my last tournament, this is how I used it.  I'm still not really sure of the results yet.  I did have another in my sideboard for the matchups where it kicks arse.

2.  Sideboard hate, i.e. have the Chalice in sideboard, perhaps 2 or 3, then pull it out for the matchups where it completely hoses your opponent.  This will be my next test.

3.  Base Deck, i.e. try to play around the self hurting, relying on your opponent being more hurt than you.  While this is often the case, I'm not sure whether this method is as productive as the other 2 methods.

I do feel that Chalice is good in the mirror.  Playing it at the right time can make your opponent cry, eg. just after playing a gorilla shaman, then casting it at 1.


Isochron Scepter
It's a bomb!  I'm not sure whether 2 or 3 of them is the right number, but 2 is a minimum as far as I'm concerned.  

[LemanRuss]

Quote As to your comments about broken cards making it more random, sure I agree with you.  Years ago the options for creating massive advantage with a single card were rarer and you did have to work harder to make it happen.  But I don't understand how this relates to the topic I raised.

It relates in that way: I think that Keeper is becoming less and less Keeper-ish but more and more combo-ish, and that the initial concept introduced by Brian Weissman as "having a deck which just translates its payer's skill into power" is no longer true because of this randomness. I developped that point in order to help answering the question: "Does Keeper still exists".