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Author Topic: Post Mirrodin Mono Blue  (Read 3643 times)
Smmenen
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« on: October 31, 2003, 01:38:12 am »

I always Update Mono Blue becuase I like the archetype.  If I have a "pet deck" its that.

Combo-Aggro-Control Murderer
The Brown Paper Bag 2004

15 Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
24 Mana Sources

3 Chalice of the Void
4 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Powder Keg
2 Morphling
1 Capsize
4 Standstill
3 Back to Basics
22 Total

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
3 Counterspells
15

SB:
4 Control Magic
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Powder Keg
3 Energy Flux
3 Stifle
3 Tormod's Crypt

Explanations:

This deck has NO problem at all playing Chalice for 1 as it only has one spell in the whole deck that costs one.

I have also decided that against the most decks Standstill is sipmly much better than the alternate draw engines of Ophidian and Accumulated Knowledge/ AK.  This deck cannot possibly lose to Sligh and looks to have good games against control and combo.

If your opponent plays the old "I'll deck you with Standstill plan by breaking it at the last minute to deck you" you have won the game.  You just break it when you draw Ancestral and then outcounter them on their endstep, untap, drop morphling and win.   Otherwise they have to break the standstill and you win anyway.

I would just like to say that there is NO reason this deck shouldn't be amazing when you consider three things:

1) Gro Is Dead.  
2) TnT Is Not Existant.
3) This deck cannot possibly lose to Aggro ever again with Chalice.  

The only other big threat pre GroAtog was Mask and Control Magics handle that QUITE well.

However, that doesn't mean that new decks like Dragon aren't bad threats - but I have serious doubts that Dragon can consistently beat this.

Stephen Menendian\n\n

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Windfall
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2003, 02:33:16 am »

You have gathered up many of my thoughts pretty well here.  As I used to love MonoU (and still do), I thought a lot about what could benefit it from the new set.

Obviously, Chalice is huge.  No longer do you need to wait turns to save yourself from really fast decks with a Keg - you can just prevent them from playing anything in the first place on turn 1.  A Chalice set at 1 will stop many efficient creatures as well as hold back Duress and opposing Red Blasts.

I also figured that Stifle would be a good addition, even the Maindeck.  It is just randomly good against pretty much everything in Type 1.  It also gives a Land Destruction element to the game because it stops Fetchlands.  This fact can give you a huge tempo advantage because you are destroying a land for U without using your own lands (meaning you cannot afford to run 5 strip effects so you can kill land cheaply with Stifle).  It may seem minimal, but countering Fetchlands can be huge, especially in the early game and after an opposing Brainstorm.  Not only would you shut out their land but you would deny them the ability to get rid of the two cards they put back (possibly giving you two free "psuedo" turns).

Why have you chosen to go the Impulse route?  It is my idea that Brainstorm+Fetchland is very strong in MonoU.  I wrote about the pros and cons of each and it seems that Brainstorms and Fetchies help you way more than Impulse would.  Is it to dig a little deeper in case you don't have a Chalice?

About the counterwall, I cannot argue a bit.  The lack of Misdirection is nothing anymore because the decks it was really good against are shut down by Chalice.

Standstill - I don't know how well this would work against opposing control decks.  What do you do if they are playing with Mishra's Factory?  There is no better way to get around a counterwall than play Manlands.  What's this deck's matchup analysis vs. Gay Fish?  It seems that Fish's Manlands, Rootwater Thieves, and Misdirections could give you a headache.  I always liked Ophidian, as they gave you a great card to Drain into and they are a solid engine against Control and good against Aggro too.  I'm not really worried about losing to Aggro anyway (Chalice), but it seems that opposing Control is not always going to be in your favor anymore.  Usually, you could just outcounter them (MisD was great).

Overall, it looks good.  I think I would go with Brainstorms though for all the reasons I said in my original post on MonoU.

     ~Mark
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Magimaster
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2003, 02:35:09 am »

And Smennen broke the format once again.

Proving that in fact the problem isn't a particular card, but Smennen himself.


BAN SMENNEN!





On a totally serious note...the Standstills and B2B look awesome in there.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2003, 02:45:03 am »

Quote from: Windfall+Oct. 30 2003,23:33
Quote (Windfall @ Oct. 30 2003,23:33)You have gathered up many of my thoughts pretty well here.  As I used to love MonoU (and still do), I thought a lot about what could benefit it from the new set.

Obviously, Chalice is huge.  No longer do you need to wait turns to save yourself from really fast decks with a Keg - you can just prevent them from playing anything in the first place on turn 1.  A Chalice set at 1 will stop many efficient creatures as well as hold back Duress and opposing Red Blasts.

I also figured that Stifle would be a good addition, even the Maindeck.  It is just randomly good against pretty much everything in Type 1.  It also gives a Land Destruction element to the game because it stops Fetchlands.  This fact can give you a huge tempo advantage because you are destroying a land for U without using your own lands (meaning you cannot afford to run 5 strip effects so you can kill land cheaply with Stifle).  It may seem minimal, but countering Fetchlands can be huge, especially in the early game and after an opposing Brainstorm.  Not only would you shut out their land but you would deny them the ability to get rid of the two cards they put back (possibly giving you two free "psuedo" turns).

Why have you chosen to go the Impulse route?  It is my idea that Brainstorm+Fetchland is very strong in MonoU.  I wrote about the pros and cons of each and it seems that Brainstorms and Fetchies help you way more than Impulse would.  Is it to dig a little deeper in case you don't have a Chalice?

About the counterwall, I cannot argue a bit.  The lack of Misdirection is nothing anymore because the decks it was really good against are shut down by Chalice.

Standstill - I don't know how well this would work against opposing control decks.  What do you do if they are playing with Mishra's Factory?  There is no better way to get around a counterwall than play Manlands.  What's this deck's matchup analysis vs. Gay Fish?  It seems that Fish's Manlands, Rootwater Thieves, and Misdirections could give you a headache.  I always liked Ophidian, as they gave you a great card to Drain into and they are a solid engine against Control and good against Aggro too.  I'm not really worried about losing to Aggro anyway (Chalice), but it seems that opposing Control is not always going to be in your favor anymore.  Usually, you could just outcounter them (MisD was great).

Overall, it looks good.  I think I would go with Brainstorms though for all the reasons I said in my original post on MonoU.

     ~Mark
I admit that Gay Fish is probably a problematic matchup.  I also agree that Ophidian might be better in certain matchups as well.  One thing I was considering was having 4 Phids in the SB for those specific matches.

Steve
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MethodXL
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2003, 02:53:35 am »

@Smmenen - Couple of Questions..

How are the control magics in the SB working for you?  

What decks do you side CM against?  

Do you think that Keg + Chalice is overkill?

How do you feel about FoF and Sol Ring?

I also like Brainstorm and Fetchlands over Impulse.\n\n

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Smmenen
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2003, 03:10:33 am »

I have to be honest that I have only played only about 7 matches with this deck, and only those on Apprentice.  I am mostly speaking with my vast knowledge of the archetype from 2002 - which I realize is not ideal.  

The Control Magics were always something I really liked.  They were necessary against TnT and mask, and probably still remain so today.

I thought Sol Ring might be much better with Chalice, but I found it seriously lacking - trying to accellerate me to do things like hard cast Force of Will.  I never liked FoF in a pure control concept like this.

I just want to make sure I have a disclaimer out there - I do not advocate this as the best deck in the format - I merely throw it out for consideration.  I think that Combo is so strong today that Mono Blue could lose to it - even one as permissive as this.  that said, it will surely give it a run for its money!

Re: Impulse:
I always preferred Impulse and was dissapointed by Brainstorm in this sort of deck.  This deck is incredibly redundant and Brainstorm rarely got me what I wanted - which was just to keep digging.  And now there are the Chalice issues with Brainstorm Wink.

Steve\n\n

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rozetta
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2003, 05:01:56 am »

Just to ask if cycled decree of justice has ever been a problem (since it get's around the standstill)? Of course you do have stifles  coming in after sideboarding, so it's only really a game 1 issue.
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Blofeld
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2003, 06:15:59 am »

Quote from: rozetta+Oct. 31 2003,02:01
Quote (rozetta @ Oct. 31 2003,02:01)Just to ask if cycled decree of justice has ever been a problem (since it get's around the standstill)? Of course you do have stifles  coming in after sideboarding, so it's only really a game 1 issue.
Because Stifle wouldn't trigger the Standstill ?
 
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Andreas
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2003, 06:44:10 am »

How would this deck fare against Stax/WelderMUD? My initial feeling would be "not good".
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Toast
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2003, 08:13:15 am »

*Grins*

yes....this is a great deck...everybody throw out your combo decks and play this instead.(If you don't get this just realize that I am a die hard TnT player and TnT is one of the few decks that is a near auto loss for monoblue)


In all seriousness this seems like it would be a pretty powerful deck considering that TnT has disappeared from the format. Chalices help this deck out a lot and standstill is an interesting substitute for phid. I am not sure which is better overall since I have only toyed with this deck briefly but I can definately see how it would be better in certain situations.

I think you might still want a few more one drops because the benefit of not being hurt by a chalice for 1 doesn't really outweigh the autoloss you face to a resolved chalice for 2 with 22 out of 36 buisiness cards (and some of the most useful 22) including your only removal costed at two.

also just a minor nitpick...the random goodies section contains 21 cards not 22.
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Tindemans
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2003, 08:18:44 am »

my feeling speaking out of a lot of Mud experience says this deck fares quite well against Mud. you can important some important threats, and especially Drains can let you get out under locks. Back to basics can disrupt quite hard, and energy flux certainly does.
however, this deck can't deal with Welder, that sucks pretty hard.
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VideoGameBoy
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2003, 08:22:21 am »

You considered dropping the 4-offcolor moxen for Chrome Mox?

I realize it's potential card disadvantage (especially if Null Rod/Shaman squeaks out), but it's also first turn Drain.\n\n

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Tatanka
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2003, 10:22:19 am »

I think you should try to fit in a FoF
Don't you remember how BBS dominated the field before their restriction

sébas
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Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2003, 12:08:34 pm »

If you haven't read my excellent, albeit outdated, primer on mono blue - please do so.  It addresses in great detail my thoughts on how this deck operates and on Fact or Fiction.

Primer Link

@VGB: I haven't been impressed with Chrome Mox much at all.  It may have merit but the cost is probably going to always be too high. The capacity to have turn one, FoW, Mana Leak, and Standtill with Chalices is probably going to be sufficient.  Also this deck really needs to trade one for one until it just wins.  Chrome mox hurts that.

EDIT:
I just wanted to say a few more things.  The more I think about this deck the more excited I get!

In the first place, the key to beating a workshop deck is to make their spells more symmetrical by attacking the mana base.

Also, Welder won't resolve if I go first with Chalice for 1.  I also REALLY like how REB is dead! with chalice at 1!  How good for this deck!  And duress!! They couldn't have made a better card for good ole mono blue than Chalice O' 'Da Void.  

That's really the reason not to run Brainstorm - you don't want adverse interactions with your own chalice.  And that's another reason not to run chrome mox - you are going to be dropping chalice for 0 alot as well.

Steve\n\n

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Os-Vegeta
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2003, 01:38:25 pm »

Steve,

Interesting build.  I like the addition of Chalice, but...

Quote
Quote 3) This deck cannot possibly lose to Aggro ever again with Chalice.

Define aggro.  Depending on how explosive of a start Madness can get on you (regardless of what you counter - you know an explosive start with Madness means a few threats on the board you'll have to worry about with possibly more on the way) Chalice could essentially end up being nearly-useless.  Now against Sligh, yes - Chalice can hose it.  Chalice will also give Sui (ok, Sui is aggro-control, but it's always been aggro in my book) some problems (it can work around Chalice), but will it give something like Stacker 3 (still played, iirc) a problem? No.  

On Standstill - Ok, I see your reasoning for Standstill, but we both know that Fish just abuses this so much better.  I'm very skeptical about Standstill in non-Fish monoblue.  It sounds like a good thing on paper, but against the upper tier decks I just see this not working nearly as well in actual application.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2003, 01:52:03 pm »

Quote from: Os-Vegeta+Oct. 31 2003,10:38
Quote (Os-Vegeta @ Oct. 31 2003,10:38)Steve,


On Standstill - Ok, I see your reasoning for Standstill, but we both know that Fish just abuses this so much better.  I'm very skeptical about Standstill in non-Fish monoblue.  It sounds like a good thing on paper, but against the upper tier decks I just see this not working nearly as well in actual application.
Yes.  I think Madness and Stacker are both probably bad matchups.  Fortunately, I don't see much of either in many large tournaments.

As for Standstill...you may be right..but I think its a very deck specific question.  It's probably great against long and mud, but bad against Keeper.

Steve
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Windfall
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2003, 02:07:39 pm »

You have a good point on the Brainstorm vs. Impulse, Steve.  In a deck that wants to cast Chalice for 1 most of the time, it may be best to keep your 1cc spells to a minimum (1 of them is a nice number, lol).  Now, without Chalice, I find the Brainstorm to be very nice.

Chrome Mox is not good in MonoU.  Now in Type 2, it has possibilities, but T1 has better options.  Mana Leak and Prohibit function as turn 1 counters just as well.  Without Ophidian, you don't need to cast a turn 1 Drain anyway.

Back to Basics is a great card as I've said many times.  I think you, Steve, were the only person to agree with me that it is still very powerful.  Combined with Stifle, it is a monster that many decks should fear.

I believe that 4 Stifles are warranted in the Board.  Against Combo, you would have a team of weapons to shut it down most of the time - 4 Chalice, 4 Stifle, 4 FoW.

Control Magic - This card is great.  The 4cc is high, but it is cheaper than anything else Blue can offer with the same reliability.  Sure, against a Dreadnought, you'd rather have Dominate, but that's usually the only time Dominate is better.  Treachery is garbage at 5cc, especially since you are usually tapping down Moxen and using Drain mana to cast it anyway, so you only untap 2-3 lands, not 5.  Controlling the creatures is sometimes better than killing them even when they are not strong creatures.  Ex: Academy Rector.  Many creatures can kill you without damaging you, like the Rector.  Taking control of him will stop the opponent from using its abilities.

Arguably, Psi Blast has its place in the SB too.  Maybe even over Control Magic.  It doesn't stop a Dreadnought, but it does kill many creatures like Welder and punishes Negator (a great enemy of yours).  It also kills TnT's men if you run into them.

3 B2B maindecked?  I never had problems finding one with 2, and keeping 1 in the board helped me eliminate dead cards game 1 against mono decks.  Especially if you're running Impulse, I see 2 as enough with a third on the board.

I think the more I ponder it, Phid is better than Standstill.

Quote
Quote I just want to make sure I have a disclaimer out there - I do not advocate this as the best deck in the format - I merely throw it out for consideration.  I think that Combo is so strong today that Mono Blue could lose to it - even one as permissive as this.  that said, it will surely give it a run for its money!

Don't feel bad about posting this.  There are always people who don't understand that MonoU permission actually works.  And it works very well!  In fact, I was about two days away from starting my own "Neo MonoU" thread.

     ~Mark
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PucktheCat
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2003, 02:09:54 pm »

I just have to chime in here on Standstill .  My experience is with various Gay decks (not necessarily fish) so I can't speak for this deck particularly, but I found Standstill to be no better than average against Long.  The problem with it is you are paying mana to do something that doesn't stop the combo.  THIS IS BAD!

I think it is far more important to have Mana Leak/Drain up when you get to mana than Standstill.

The thing to remember about Long is that, in spite of its ability to rush threats early, it is still a combo deck and so it cannot come close to winning a card trading game with you, it MUST beat you with a blitz of spells that overwhelms your mana.  When you tap for a Standstill you are trading the mana to power one counterspell for three cards that may or may not contain a Force.  Not always a good trade.

I also wonder about the Wasteland/B2B ratio in this deck.  Some combination of these two cards is essential for maximum synergy with Chalice=0, but I wonder if the more powerful 3cc one is the better choice or if the Wasteland, which can hurt Long and other fast decks, is the better choice.

Leo

Edit:  No Islandcyclers?\n\n

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Os-Vegeta
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2003, 02:11:22 pm »

Quote
Quote As for Standstill...you may be right..but I think its a very deck specific question.  It's probably great against long and mud, but bad against Keeper.

I agree, it can be nice vs. Long, but since you have no other cards synergistic with Standstill, I have my doubts about how much you'll effectively be able to abuse it against wMUD.  wMUD (feel free to correct me if I'm off in anything I'm saying - I know you know wMUD like the back of your hand) could go as far as to play something to break the Standstill (if the MUD player is going to win, he needs to not be afraid of doing this, at least imo) with a must-counter to draw away counters to push through a Welder or another artifact threat.  That's where I feel the mono-blue player could really get tied up, even in getting the boost off Standstill.\n\n

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Grand Inquisitor
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2003, 03:04:50 pm »

When I see things like:

Quote
Quote I would just like to say that there is NO reason this deck shouldn't be amazing when you consider three things:

1) Gro Is Dead.  
2) TnT Is Not Existant.
3) This deck cannot possibly lose to Aggro ever again with Chalice

you really start to worry me, Steve.

1) Gro is not dead.  It routinely shows up in T8's of European tournaments, and I've been championing it in the NE area.
2) TnT is much more scarce, but still sees some play.  The major flaw with this statement isn't that TnT is around, but that Stax may even be more problematic to Mono-U.  If tanglewire, welder, or smokestack resolve first turn, it will be a long road back for this deck.  God forbid they drop a chalice for 2 on the first turn, what would you do?  Wait to draw your single capsize?
3) Much like Os-Vegeta, I'm wondering what aggro you're talking about.
-you've admitted that madness is probably a bad matchup
-suicide might be a good matchup going first, but it doesn't care about chalice, and traditionally hoses mono-u
-mask should be able to slip either a mask or a survival under the counterwall or duress/force it through.  control magic might save you if you have enough artifact acceleration to cast it before you're dead

So basically this beats sligh, neo-zoo, and stompy?

The only combo it looks good against is Long, as Dragon and Rector based decks (if they ever make a comeback) should eat this alive.

I do think this deck could perform well in a control-heavy metagame, but in a more robust scene it has too many enemies and uses an outdated strategy.  I know you've just started testing, but what have you tested against?\n\n

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BillTheDuck
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2003, 03:14:13 pm »

Actually GI, I think you forgot that this deck will lose to a first turn vandal save a really early morphling. First turn lackys are dealable, but still a huge problem. Then there is also the fact that red can easily destroy chalice with a variety of CC artifact hate. Im not saying sligh is a bad matchup for this at all, but smmemen, your statement that you can't lose to aggro is totally false because sligh can steal games from you a decent percentage of the time. That along with all of GI's points proves that the aggro matchup isn't as you say it is.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2003, 03:21:10 pm »

Quote from: Oxford English Dictionary+,
Quote (Oxford English Dictionary @ ,)Hyperbole
 1. Rhet. A figure of speech consisting in exaggerated or extravagant statement,used to express strong feeling or produce a strong impression, and not intended to be understood literally.    b. With a and pl., an instance of this figure.

Hence hyperbole v. intr. (nonce-wd.), to use hyperbole, to exaggerate.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, a few comments:
Landcyclers are cool, but they're just so slow. 2 mana for an island is a lot, and a 3/4 flyer isn't that good.

Impulse is a tutor. Brainstorm/Fetchlands is cute, but the drawbacks just aren't worth it in a deck that has no other reason to run either card.

Standstill can be really annoying for the wMUD player, since even if it's broken with a must-counter, you still get three more cards. It doesn't help once threats are on the table, but it can turn games you would have lost into games where you just win.\n\n

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Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Thug
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2003, 03:34:18 pm »

Quote
Quote Standstill can be really annoying for the wMUD player, since even if it's broken with a must-counter, you still get three more cards. It doesn't help once threats are on the table, but it can turn games you would have lost into games where you just win.

But if you cast Standstill in the early game, you lose the ability to drain/leak/counter and solely have to rely on FoW to stop any possible threats.

Standstill is a great card in Fish, because that deck is used to tap out, and doesnt run any counter they want to hardcast (maybe stifle).

The idea behind Standstill IMO is to drop it when you have a slightly better board poisition, so that if your opponent decided not to break the standstill you're going to win

But this deck lacks any form of early threats to make the Standstill card it is in fish, and therefore I don't really see the value of Standstill in this deck.

I think mono-u might be a possibility in the current format, but the draw-engine most likely will cause most problems. Phids and Standstills are fragile, and Intuition-Ak seems somewhat slow/expensive.

Btw, no FoF?

Koen
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Smmenen
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2003, 04:01:12 pm »

I already suggested reading the Primer for why no FoF.  It's well detailed.

I think Koen alluded to one part of the Standstill/Phid debate.

The question is really which is stronger.  I think Standstill is probably a better maindeck choice as it can just immediately come down where as you want to slowly build up to Phid so you can protect it and get it going.  Against Combo - all you really need is two turns and Long usually has to go to turn two or three two win anyway.  And since you have to tap to cast Phid anyway - at least against combo you GET to draw some cards with standstill without having to win before the draw goes active.

@GI.  In August I began to reconsider GAT again and I came up with some pretty tight GAT lists with Westredale, Saucemaster, and Koen but we all decided it just wasn't good enough.  So despite your efforts so far with Rico and others, I'm just not impressed with Gro right now.  After all, they did restrict gush Wink.  I really felt that Gro was the deck that really killed mono blue the first time around as it was constantly being out countered.

@Windfall - yes this deck wants to cast Chalice for 1 all the time.

Steve\n\n

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Thug
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2003, 05:32:30 pm »

Quote
Quote I already suggested reading the Primer for why no FoF.  It's well detailed.

Yeah, but time has changed, and combo isn't all that rampant anymore, against other control decks FoF can be gamebreaking...

And maybe it's a good idea to add a link to the primer, I couldn't find one somewhere.

EDIT: sorry, must have missed the link, my fault

Quote
Quote The question is really which is stronger.  I think Standstill is probably a better maindeck choice as it can just immediately come down where as you want to slowly build up to Phid so you can protect it and get it going.

But the problem is that after your opponent dropped a single threat standstill looks a lot less useful, and lands don't trigger standstill. Almost every deck packs such a threat or a problematic land, take a look at this:

Fish: Manta Riders, Factory, Conclave
Dragon: Bazaar
Keeper: Shaman
Sligh: Any creature
wMUD: welder, metalworker

etc.

Koen\n\n

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Smmenen
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2003, 06:03:31 pm »

Quote from: Smmenen+Oct. 31 2003,09:08
Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 31 2003,09:08)If you haven't read my excellent, albeit outdated, primer on mono blue - please do so.  It addresses in great detail my thoughts on how this deck operates and on Fact or Fiction.

Primer Link
I did link it on the first page of this thread.

Steve
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FyreStar
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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2003, 06:31:55 pm »

I'm curious to know what your testing told you about Future Sight.
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Thug
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« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2003, 07:23:57 pm »

Quote
Quote I'm curious to know what your testing told you about Future Sight.

I can't speak for Smmenen,

But since the arguments he stated for not running FoF count even more for Future Sight, I think he already answered you're question. It's slow and doesn't find answers.

I still think FoF is runnable though, as answers it still can find Morplhings and Kegs, so that not two but four cards.

Koen
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Browser
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« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2003, 08:05:12 pm »

Steve, as you know Mono-U has a special place in my heart as well.  And I don't have time at the moment to post all my thoughts on your list...  But I must atleast pose the question which always comes to mind with Mono-U.

Why is this better than UrPhid?
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wuaffiliate
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« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2003, 09:15:20 pm »

Quote from: Windfall+Oct. 31 2003,02:33
Quote (Windfall @ Oct. 31 2003,02:33)Standstill - I don't know how well this would work against opposing control decks.  What do you do if they are playing with Mishra's Factory?  There is no better way to get around a counterwall than play Manlands.  What's this deck's matchup analysis vs. Gay Fish?  It seems that Fish's Manlands, Rootwater Thieves, and Misdirections could give you a headache.  I always liked Ophidian, as they gave you a great card to Drain into and they are a solid engine against Control and good against Aggro too.  I'm not really worried about losing to Aggro anyway (Chalice), but it seems that opposing Control is not always going to be in your favor anymore.  Usually, you could just outcounter them (MisD was great).
im my experience as a landstill player ive found fish to be a bad match, not terrible, just bad, in their favour but winable.

standstill is obv weak vs manlands and decree, but standstill played in a deck based arround the card is like playing with 5 ancestrals.

how has standstill worked for you? ive seen phid builds with still in them also, but ive never bothered to test it because i found standstill worked best in a deck build arround it, since its so very easy to abuse. with ways to make the opponent pop still by forcing them into a corner or being able to stop the opponent's actions under still are crucial.

also as a comment from someone who plays multi coloured control  why just play blue? you can gain more adding a second or third colour. basically can this deck be better that keeper vs the field?

Quote
Quote Why is this better than UrPhid?

phid is slow and crappy, this is a fast metagame. bad combo that is.
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