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Author Topic: [Budget] Combo Goblins  (Read 3711 times)
Vegeta2711
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« on: November 09, 2003, 02:58:50 pm »

//NAME: Goblin Chains (Budget)
// Mana
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Mana Crypt
       1 Lotus Petal
       2 Mountain
       3 Ancient Tomb
       3 Karplusan Forest
       4 Taiga
       4 Wooded Foothills
       4 Chrome Mox
// Combo Card
       4 Food Chain
// Creatures
       1 Goblin Sharpshooter
       2 Siege-Gang Commander
       2 Goblin Matron
       4 Goblin Ringleader
       4 Goblin Warchief
       4 Goblin Recruiter
       4 Goblin Piledriver
       4 Skirk Prospector
       4 Goblin Vandal
       4 Goblin Lackey
// Sideboard
SB:  4 Chalice of the Void
SB:  4 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  4 Naturalize
SB:  3 Crash

The basic combo

Use Recruiter to stack your library, putting Ringleaders every 4th card and then play Ringleaders to put about 13 other goblins in your hand.

Use Food Chain to sac. Recruiter to power the first Ringleader into play and then keep saccing the old Ringleader to play the new one. Then do various tricks with your Goblins to drop various amounts of shit into play and swing with a bunch of goblins including multiple Piledrivers.

Doing this you can get as quick as turn 2 kills,

Goblin Choices

Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Warchief, Goblin Recruiter, Goblin Piledriver and Goblin Lackey.

These Goblins are core to the deck and shouldn't be removed for any reason, maybe dropped down to 3 in some cases if you feel the need, but you need these to make the deck work. Recruiter and Ringleader power out the combo and if you manage a mid-game can be used to rig your deck so you may have a chance at winning. Piledriver kills opponents, Warchief means you won't have to wait a turn after you drop the combo and of course will make all your future goblins easier to play, and Lackey is added since this ain't 1.x and it allows you to get starts equal to normal Goblin decks.

Skirk Prospector

They aren't great, but can allow you to pull of turn 2/3 combo kills more often and can be used in conjuction with the Rec/Ring goblins for a really crappy version of the combo. As VGB put it, they basically turn all your useless gobbo's into Lotus Petal's.

Goblin Vandal or Mogg Fanatic

Vandal if you see Workshops deck aplenty, Fanatic should be in here if you see Aggro.

Goblin Matron

It allows you to search out a Recruiter easier, can fetch a Driver to match up with a Warchief and on occasion match a Siege Gang up for a Lackey attack.

Goblin Sharpshooter/Siege Gang
Dur Dur. Shoots things!

Other cards

Food Chain

Hey adding a combo kill to Goblins to speed it up seemed like a good idea.    The card itself combo's fine with Ring/Recruiter even seperated. It can also be used on smaller Goblins to power up say a ill-timed drawn Siege Gang or combo with Sharpshooter in saccing critters.

Mana Base

Currently this is my preferred mana base, but I still have to test 4 Tombs and Mana Crypt in the deck. As it stands though, getting green mana isn't really a problem, nor is getting screwed by Waste's for running non-basic's really been an issue based on the speed and addition of Lackey's. This is partially because 4 Chrome Mox speeds to deck up to an acceptable speed, regardess of card disadvantage. Remember even if you don't have the combo in hand, turn 1 Piledriver, turn 2 Warchief is still effective against non combo decks.

Also I know this deck will work better with the full SoLoMoxen set, but in that case the question arises of why bother. So I'm focusing directly on the budget version of it.

What are the +sides of the deck?

Well the speed of the deck is one thing, few budget decks other than Budget Long and Dragon can kill on turn 2. The deck has the built in back-up of being as fast as a normal gobbo deck and packs the same core. It also doesn't auto-roll to Chalice at 1 or 2 and it's SB is built specfically to deal with annoying artifacts and powered combo. The green splash not only allows for the insta-kill combo, but added flexibility to SB options in Naturalize and others.

Some random testing data

In general the deck has a lot more potency than I gave it credit for at first. The thing kills by turn 3 quite often with a few turn 2 kills thanks to Chrome Mox. Against non Keeper control, you generally have an edge with the varying amount of threats. Lackey dropping early on and then if you can sneak a Recruiter through you can just set-up something like 4 Piledrivers on the top of your deck or something. Also Scepter imprinted w/ Fire will completely destroy you, so you have to swing pretty fast if that's the case.

Against opposing aggro not only can you combo them out with impunity, but generally your faster than them unless they have a god hand. Even with the lack of removal, you don't really have to remove anything to smash them. Worst case, fetch a Goblin Sharpshooter or SGE.

Combo... eh... against fully powered combo you'll probably lose. After SB your just hoping to stall them with 0cc combo hate and pull out your own combo.

Any suggestions or thoughts? I think Sligh is a bit more viable in this combo form. The deck is budget, but if you wanted you could add the SoLoMoxen in there. I just figured if you had that, you'd play something better than Sligh.  \n\n

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MoreFling
Guest
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2003, 03:43:35 pm »

Why this deck won't ever win in a serious enviroment

3 words:

Force

of

Will

.
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Vegeta2711
Guest
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2003, 04:07:22 pm »

Oh
Wow
So play it like a normal Goblin deck.  
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leviat
Guest
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2003, 05:09:51 pm »

I think it's a cute deck. Ignore MoreFling, he's just a grump.

The Seige-Gangs create lots of mana with Food Chain and worst case scenario you should be able to use Goblin Sharpshooter to do 3+ pts of damage a turn. With that aside the deck is straight forward Goblin deck which are always a pain to deal with when your playing control.

I think this is certainly a viable budget combo/aggro deck.

Just because a deck isn't going to win a serious tournament, doesn't mean it's not a good deck.\n\n

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Aroxisis
Guest
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2003, 08:20:37 pm »

What about some of these??
Metamorphosis
G
Sorcery
AN, CH-C
As an additional cost to play Metamorphosis, sacrifice a creature.
Add an amount of mana of any one color equal to one plus that creature's converted mana cost to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to play creature spells.

Granted, they aren't permenant like food chain, but they do the same thing and come out faster. Just a thought though. Besides, the art on Metamorphosis is 1337.
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kirdape3
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2003, 09:52:16 pm »

Food Chain is a permanent.  That really does matter, as the 'draw your whole deck' option requires you to Food Chain a bunch.

The big problem I have with this deck isn't Force of Will.  It's it's big brother - Mana Drain.  If the Ringleader's Drained, then that's game right there.  And a control deck will have little problems staying alive long enough to get UU against this disruption-less deck.
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jpmeyer
fancy having a go at it?
Adepts
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2003, 10:20:53 pm »

Mana Crypt is probably better than Mana Vault here since you tend to need 2 colorless mana more than you need 3 colorless mana.
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Vegeta2711
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2003, 04:56:41 pm »

Good point on the Crypt. And it's 0cc so it works better first turn. I replaced the vault with it.

Like I said just play it like normal Goblins then. Not much you can do about some of this stuff since there's no disruption available anyways.
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Methuselahn
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2003, 07:48:40 pm »

Quote from: Vegeta2711+Nov. 10 2003,15:56
Quote (Vegeta2711 @ Nov. 10 2003,15:56)Like I said just play it like normal Goblins then. Not much you can do about some of this stuff since there's no disruption available anyways.
Not true.  You have replaced Lightning Bolt for Food Chain.  Do you have problems getting lackey through early?

Since you got a hard on for mana, have you tried Seething Song?  I see on the same level as Food Chain.
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bebe
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2003, 08:02:10 pm »

Have you considered Elvish Spirit Guides as mana sources? Are the Moxen better? At worst the Guides can be played from hand. Just a thought.
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Vegeta2711
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2003, 08:23:31 pm »

Quote
Quote Not true.  You have replaced Lightning Bolt for Food Chain.  Do you have problems getting lackey through early?

Not really, honestly what commonly seen decks still play critters to burn away? Suicide, Fish and Sligh. Sligh can burn it away anyways though, Fish could just Mis-D the stupid bolt so really bolt only would help Lackey get through against Suicide. I admit I wouldn't mind having room to throw 4 bolts in there, but I have nothing I want to cut for them except possibly Matrons. And really they are OK.

Seething Song is only good in the Charbelcher version, this deck has no use for a 1 shot burst of 5 mana. Meta falls under this same criteria. Food Chain is only good because it provides a continuous stream of mana.

Bebe: Good idea about ESG's. I prefer mox because it's a perma source and can use it for 2 mana on turn 1 and 3 mana on turn 2. Where an ESG I could only use it for one turn. Still they may make good additions so I'll try them out.
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Tatanka
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2003, 09:55:59 pm »

I used to play song of blood when I played a deck similar lets said many years ago, recruiter is fine with song of blood and lackey

seb
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rozetta
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2003, 12:48:10 am »

I've played against the charbelcher version of this deck and that was pretty damn good. It wasn't even very type 1 optimized, and it gave blue-based control a really hard time, even if it mulliganed to 5. I've heard this version is, in some respects, faster.
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Carlos El Salvador
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2003, 02:27:14 am »

1.5 decklist deleted. If you want to talk about 1.5, post in the 1.X/1.5 forum, not in here.
-Jacob
\n\n

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Vegeta2711
Guest
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2003, 03:40:41 pm »

Tested some, I found I was getting a bit mana flooded if I couldn't win fast enough. I cut a Karpulsan and added another Siege Gang, I may cut 1 or 2 more lands in the future, but for now that's all. Mana Crypt is awesome and powered a bunch of my turn 2 wins.

Control actually isn't that bad of a match-up, but so far my worst match has come up against Iso-Control. (Yeah counters + Iso on Fire is shit) Basically I've only played a few games against Tog and that was pretty much either smash face with an early lackey and kill them with horde + Driver or combo out. If you can't accomplish either by turn 4 your pretty much screwed. Keeper was by far my easiest control match-up as Chalice isn't an auto pwn against you and they lack any signficant creature removal other than Balance.

Long is all draw dependent, if they have a good hand you die. If they don't your going to smash face. Dragon is certianly beatable, but even w/ SB hate I've been drawn out many times where I could win the next turn. (Since your combo is usually very telegraphed, they know when to go for it) It's annoying as hell knowing you can smash for 150 damage one turn after they decide to draw you.  

Aggro decks lose simply by virtue of not being combo. Even fully powered Madness has problems racing the deck.

Anything running early Pillar or Sphere is fucktarded vs. this deck because odds are you can't combo out. Though if you resolve Food Chain you can easily combo out under Sphere, it's getting it to resolve that's tricky.

Um so that's about it. If you want a budget deck that kills on turn 2 though and can be made from your old Sligh decks, here's what you want to upgrade too.
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walking dude
Guest
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2003, 05:02:32 pm »

its worth noting that you have 8 maindeck cards that make it impossible for dragon to draw the game. With a chain or skirk P you can sac a dude and once a guy is in your grave they are forced to eventually bring him back since you can't have an inifnite loop where players can choose to end it. Dragon can still combo you out, but they should not be able to just draw bad games.
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Dante
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2003, 05:06:49 pm »

Quote from: walking dude+Nov. 20 2003,16:02
Quote (walking dude @ Nov. 20 2003,16:02)its worth noting that you have 8 maindeck cards that make it impossible for dragon to draw the game. With a chain or skirk P you can sac a dude and once a guy is in your grave they are forced to eventually bring him back since you can't have an inifnite loop where players can choose to end it. Dragon can still combo you out, but they should not be able to just draw bad games.
Drawing the game will simply take 2 animate spells instead of 1, it can still draw.  See other threads [diceman's primer, the one in the rules mill] on the how/why of it.

Bill
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walking dude
Guest
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2003, 05:26:33 pm »

I know the rules. It can still draw, but the complaint was dragon kept drawing games the turn before they would otherwise get killed. Finding an extra animate card takes extra time (and casting it takes extra mana). If you throw a monkey wrench into the dragon player’s plans and force them to spend an extra turn they can be in serious trouble.  If you are 1 turn short of killing them and you delay them by one turn then they don't get to draw becuase they are dead.

I suppose I should have been more specific. What I meant is not that prospector makes it impossible for dragon to draw but that it makes it impractical for dragon to draw and consequently it should not be as frequent an outcome as you might think.\n\n

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Vegeta2711
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2003, 05:37:21 pm »

See the thing is usually if I can resolve Chain it means I've won the game already, as it's the last piece of my combo.

Maybe I made it sound too major by adding 'many' to the statement. I'm not saying it should happen all the time, I was just mentioning something that does happen with Dragon when you telegraph the combo by playing Recruiter.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2003, 08:13:34 pm »

I think this deck deserves further evaluation come Jan 1st. It loses the Long matchup and can make up some of its lost speed with ESG. Thoughts?

I imagine that Goblin Vandal will be incredibly important vs Scepter.dec, Crash will be THAT much better in the SB and Goblin Tinkerer could find slots MD or SB.

Just interested in hearing what you have to say on the matter.
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Vegeta2711
Guest
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2003, 10:08:04 pm »

Off the top of my head the following changes will be made.

-3 Shiny Mox
-1 Karpulsan

+4 ESG

The Matron's may be leaving in the near future for a few other Goblins I've been testing. (inculding Tinkerer) Though at the moment they seem to only excel in certain matches, where Matron was always at least decent if not good.

With Long dead, I no longer need Chalice in the board. If combo comes back in force I'm running 4 Pyrostatic Pillar's and may anyways because they're solid. Also many of the current lists are less refined than Long and even with perfect play most of the time will die before they can go off.
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