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Author Topic: Building a gauntlet for type one  (Read 3239 times)
walking dude
Guest
« on: November 20, 2003, 11:24:45 pm »

Building a gauntlet for type one.

The basis for any decent testing is a solid gauntlet. There have been enough articles since mirroden to give us something of an impression of the metagame. The first wave of tourney decks from the Big E in Europe and Waterbury in the U.S. have given as some actual results to combine with articles. I think we are now ready to take a stab at building a gauntlet.

If you are familiar with ANY of the archetypes listed here chime in with your thoughts on MD, SB or anything you think will make the deck a better representative of its archetype.

Also, if you think there is a major archetype that I left out or something minor that is included and shouldn’t be please post.

Also: a quick note, most of these decks are not mine, the are collected from postings, reports, articles ect. When a lot of people have posted deck lists I’ve tried to pick one that I feel is generally representative of the archetype

Edit: added madness


Control decks first

//NAME: Keeper
// blue
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
        4 Brainstorm
        2 Cunning Wish
        2 Impulse
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Fact or Fiction
// red
        1 Goblin Trenches
        1 Gorilla Shaman
// black
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Skeletal Scrying
        1 Mind Twist
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// white
        1 Balance
        1 Decree of Justice
        2 Swords to Plowshares
// artifact
        3 Chalice of the Void
// mana
        3 Underground Sea
        3 Volcanic Island
        3 Tundra
        1 Island
        4 Flooded Strand
        3 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 City of Brass
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Ebony Charm
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Plaguebearer

//NAME: Scepter Control aka OSE
// blue
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
        1 Misdirection
        3 Brainstorm
        3 Stifle
        2 Cunning Wish
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Fact or Fiction
// red
        2 Fire/Ice
        2 Gorilla Shaman
// black
        2 Plaguebearer
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// artifact
        2 Isochron Scepter
        3 Chalice of the Void
// mana
        4 Underground Sea
        4 Volcanic Island
        2 Polluted Delta
        2 Flooded Strand
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Library of Alexandria
        4 Mishra's Factory
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Jet
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Rack and Ruin
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Deep Analysis
SB:  1 Read the Runes
SB:  2 Smother
SB:  1 Fire/Ice


//NAME: WMUD
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        7 Mountain
        1 Tolarian Academy
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Metalworker
// lock/kill
        4 Smokestack
        4 Tangle Wire
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Sphere of Resistance
// guys
        2 Gorilla Shaman
        4 Goblin Welder
        2 Karn, Silver Golem
// stuff
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Memory Jar
        3 Mind's Eye

Agro Control

//NAME: GAT
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        2 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
        4 Counterspell
        1 Pernicious Deed
        3 Duress
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Accumulated Knowledge
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Merchant Scroll
        2 Cunning Wish
        1 Regrowth
        1 Gush
        4 Quirion Dryad
        2 Psychatog
// mana
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Island
        1 Flooded Strand
        4 Polluted Delta
        4 Tropical Island
        4 Underground Sea
// sb
SB:  1 Berserk
SB:  2 Naturalize
SB:  2 Smother
SB:  1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  1 Pernicious Deed
SB:  1 Stifle
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Null Rod
SB:  2 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Zuran Orb
SB:  1 Annul

//NAME: RU Fish
        4 Spiketail Hatchling
        4 Cloud of Faeries
        4 Grim Lavamancer
        3 Voidmage Prodigy
        4 Curiosity
        4 Standstill
        4 Force of Will
        3 Daze
        3 Null Rod
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Misdirection
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Mox Sapphire
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Volcanic Island
        4 Mishra's Factory
        2 Faerie Conclave
        2 Island
        4 Flooded Strand
        1 Polluted Delta
SB:  1 Boomerang
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Energy Flux
SB:  1 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2 Fire/Ice
SB:  2 Rack and Ruin
SB:  1 Null Rod
SB:  3 Stifle
SB:  3 Maze of Ith

Combo

//NAME: Mask
// combo 12
        4 Illusionary Mask
        4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
        4 Phyrexian Negator
// discard 12
        4 Unmask
        4 Duress
        4 Hymn to Tourach
// other 9
        1 Necropotence
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Demonic Consultation
        4 Spoils of the Vault
// mana 28
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        4 Dark Ritual
        15 Swamp
// sb
// and 3 metagame sb
SB:  3 Chalice of the Void
SB:  3 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  3 Lightning Greaves
SB:  3 Chains of Mephistopheles

//NAME: Long
// blue
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Timetwister
        1 Windfall
        1 Tinker
        1 Mystical Tutor
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Mind's Desire
// red
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        4 Burning Wish
// black
        4 Duress
        1 Demonic Consultation
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Necropotence
        1 Tendrils of Agony
        1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
// articfatc
        1 Memory Jar
// mana
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Tolarian Academy
        4 City of Brass
        4 Gemstone Mine
        2 Underground Sea
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mana Crypt
        4 Lion's Eye Diamond
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Chromatic Sphere
SB:  3 Xantid Swarm
SB:  1 Time Spiral
SB:  1 Doomsday
SB:  1 Diminishing Returns
SB:  1 Balance
SB:  1 Hull Breach
SB:  1 Primitive Justice
SB:  1 Simplify
SB:  1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:  1 Yawgmoth's Will

//NAME: Dragon
// mana
        4 Polluted Delta
        4 Underground Sea
        1 Tropical Island
        2 Bayou
        1 Swamp
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
// blue
        2 Lim-Dul's Vault
        3 Intuition
        2 Ambassador Laquatus
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Force of Will
        2 Compulsion
// black
        3 Duress
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        3 Necromancy
        3 Dance of the Dead
        2 Animate Dead
// red
        4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        4 Worldgorger Dragon
// colorless
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
// sb
SB:  1 Sliver Queen
SB:  3 Stifle
SB:  3 Verdant Force
SB:  3 Xantid Swarm
SB:  3 Pernicious Deed
SB:  2 Reanimate

Good Agro

//NAME: Madness
        4 Basking Rootwalla
        4 Wild Mongrel
        4 Arrogant Wurm
        3 Roar of the Wurm
        2 Anger
        2 Wonder
        4 Fiery Temper
        4 Careful Study
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        3 Deep Analysis
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        4 Wooded Foothills
        4 Taiga
        4 Tropical Island
        2 Volcanic Island
        1 Forest
        4 Lion's Eye Diamond
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
SB:  3 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  4 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB:  4 Artifact Mutation
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast

Old school aggro

These haven’t put up good showings anywhere. So I was forced to make a few choices. For sligh I chose to go with food chain over scepter sligh because I know nothing about that archetype. If you think I made the wrong choice and know about scepter sligh post.

For suicide I built the deck as I would play it if someone held a gun to my head and forced me to play sui at a high powered event. I think my changes make the deck a lot better vs long, dragon, mask and scepter control (and possibly a tad stronger v workshop) at the expense of giving up some oomph in the keeper match up. Still not a deck I would play if I had a choice, but sui is around so I had to put something in the gauntlet.


//NAME: Food chain gobo
// mana
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        3 Ancient Tomb
        2 Mountain
        3 Karplusan Forest
        4 Bloodstained Mire
        4 Taiga
        4 Chrome Mox
// combo
        4 Food Chain
// d00dz
        4 Skirk Prospector
        2 Siege-Gang Commander
        1 Goblin Sharpshooter
        2 Goblin Matron
        4 Goblin Piledriver
        4 Goblin Ringleader
        4 Goblin Recruiter
        4 Goblin Warchief
        4 Goblin Vandal
        4 Goblin Lackey
// sb
SB:  3 Crash
SB:  4 Naturalize
SB:  4 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  4 Chalice of the Void

//NAME: Suicide
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Demonic Consultation
        4 Spoils of the Vault
        4 Duress
        4 Dark Ritual
        4 Hymn to Tourach
        4 Null Rod
        1 Demonic Tutor
        3 Withered Wretch
        4 Nantuko Shade
        3 Phyrexian Negator
        4 Hypnotic Specter
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        16 Swamp\n\n

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glenchuy
Guest
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2003, 02:27:43 am »

where's hulk?
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MarkPharaoh
Guest
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2003, 08:53:43 am »

Hulk has pretty much merged into GAT.
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PucktheCat
Guest
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2003, 09:11:02 am »

That Long.dec should definatly have some better artifact removal in the sideboard.  Even if Overload/Crumble is no longer the tech it should have a least a Meltdown.

Leo
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Toast
Guest
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2003, 09:34:26 am »

while I do like mikeatogs list for WelderMUD I am not sure if it is popular enough/ well known enough for it to be considered the generic WelderMUD build that people use to test against the gauntlet. If you are looking to test against something you are more likely to play against if you went to a tournament at random town/city X. I would probably stick with the following.

-1 Grim Monolith, +1 City of Traitors
-1 Wheel of Fortune, -3 Mind's Eye, + 4 skullcap

the two shamans fit into a group of slots that have not been optimized yet.

it could be a land + mystery card, it could be two mystery cards like in the build you are using, I have also seen -1 Metalworker + 3 mystery cards, and I am currently testing -1 Metalworker, -1 Skullcap, + 4 mystery cards (I can afford to cut the cap because my cards in turn help me to find it better)

It will be difficult to determine how those slots are best used and what the most common uses will be for them.

Also SB should almost certainly have 4 REB and 1-2 Triskellion...Null Brooch, Jester's Cap, and Rack and Ruin are also all good choices (although some people like to run the Caps main)
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bebe
Guest
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2003, 10:06:54 am »

That is an excellent start but I feel should mention a few things. It is a bit of a nitpick but bear with me. Lets start with a deck not even considered. This deck is played a lot in Ontario and Quebec it seems pretty much ignored elsewhere until you lose to it ...

Landstill
Shock Wave (Richard M. 4th at Worlds)

 Lands
   1 Strip Mine
   1 Mountain
   4 Island
   4 Volcanic Island
   4 Wasteland
   4 Mishra's Factory
   4 Faerie Conclave
   1 Wooded Foothills
   1 Library of Alexandria
   1 Flooded Strand

 Spells
   1  Ancestral Recall
   1  Time Walk
   1  Black Lotus
   3  Misdirection
   4  Fire/Ice
   4  Standstill
   4  Nevinyrral's Disk
   4  Lightning Bolt
   4  Mana Drain
   4  Force of Will
   1  Lotus Petal
   3  Stifle
   1  Mox Sapphire

 Sideboard
   4  Red Elemental Blast
   4  Chalice of the Void
   4  Tormod's Crypt
   3  Maze of Ith

Richard has done remarkably well with this build and it is well known in eastern Canada. It's strength is that it can compete with the top decks.  It really is quite elegant in its approach. I am continually surprised that it is almost always overlooked and it performs better overall than a few of the listed decks.
Which really does beg the question ...
The decks listed are not played in all many metas but not all. The guantlet as such is prejudiced towards your field which is okay but hardly complete. I'm sure there are few European venues that see a few decks regularly not on the list. I've noticed a lot of reanimator being played overseas for one.
Here I am most likely to encounter Fish, Madness, Dragon, Sligh variants and Landstill along with the rogue creations of the some very inventive players - not needed in the list. Your list misses a few prominent decks ( Madness - particularly Hyperion's build, Landstill).  
Before we start with "Those are sub-optimal decks", we should pause a moment and perhaps reconsider the statement. A number of these decks can cause problems for top Tier decks. This one of the difficulies in creating a solid gauntlet.
I would add also that the main decks of a number of arch types are also up for debate. I always play Blood Moons main decked in mono red builds and sometimes even in two colour builds. I certainly attribute my only wins against Landstill and Fish to Blood Moons and they proved their worth against Dragon and Madness as well. I don't play Rods main deck in Sui. I play Planar Voids. In my meta they are strictly better and I keep Rods in the side. Not that these two decks are favorites of mine.\n\n

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MarkPharaoh
Guest
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2003, 10:34:40 am »

Also, Rich is working on a different type of Landstill that has a lot of advantages over the above list.
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bebe
Guest
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2003, 10:49:39 am »

That is Richard's latest list as played last Sunday. He won the tournament with it.
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serracollector
Guest
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2003, 11:53:30 am »

The current metagame in my area is a lot fo Dragon, a little Madness, Stax/WMud and some sligh.  Due to the metagame in my area, I play WMud, and my sideboard is almost entirley anti- Dragon tech, due to it being one of the few decks that can almsot consistently defeat WMud.  Here is my current decklist of WMud.

Lock(16)
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Goblin Welder

Draw(7)
4 Grafted Skullcap
1 Mindstorm Crown
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar

KillZ(4)
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Triskelion

Mana(33)
4 Metal Workers
7 SoloMoxen
1 Man Vault
1 Mana Crypt
6 mountain
4 wasteland
4 Mishra's Worlshop
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard (15)
2 Jester's Cap
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Bloodmoon
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Chalice of the Void

I don't agree with Chalice maindeck, because there are some decks it just does not hinder.  Rack and Ruins are a neccesity vs MaskNought.  Chalice is a neccesity vs Long.  2 Cap's, 3 Crypt, and 3 Chalice almost gaurantee a win vs Dragon.  As we all know by now a well played Chalice also ends Sligh and Suicide.  Keeper, with mass Hurkyll's Recal tech hurts majorly, but if ucan get a chalice for 2 turn one, it usaully slows Keeper down enuff (no drains/scepters/Hurkyll's) that u can get the lock.  I also beleive that Trisk should be maindecked, simply for the Mirror (pingin Welders has saved my ass soo many times) and also cause it's a great alternative Kill.  With 2 welder and an Artifact in play/grave its a free bolt a turn.  Charbelcher has been unbeleiveably beautiful (also a Welder killer if needed) And yes, I have (once) gotten a first turn kill with the Belcher.  My list, my metagame.  Thanx.
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CrazyCarl
Guest
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2003, 06:59:01 pm »

Wow.  I was going to jokingly add "PUT UP OSE".  But it's there.  Thanks
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MarkPharaoh
Guest
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2003, 07:26:09 pm »

I don't think you know about the decklist, he told me not to share the list and tell anyone about it but maybe he stopped working on it as I have not seen him on irc for a while.  To throw you a bone it was Ub Landstill.
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wuaffiliate
Guest
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2003, 07:53:27 pm »

landstill really needs to be discovered by more people, but its overshadowed by fish since people think "wow they both use standstill they must be basically the same, which is better?". they dont get the decks cant be compared, just like keeper cant be compared to fish.

on that not, another reason landstill isnt established is that it has so many good builds, Ur, Uw, Uwr. so much to chose from .
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Siral
Guest
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2003, 12:35:38 am »

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
3 Cunning Wish
2 Fire/Ice
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
2 Decree of Justice
1 Balance
4 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Sword To Plowshares
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Shattering Pulse
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant
2 Coffin Purge
1 Stifle
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Orim's Chant
1 Accumulated Knowledge


This is a deck very similar to the Landstill but with a better mana base (no mishra) and winner uncounterable (Decree) in great sinergy with Standstill

Yes, i know...i play 61 cards    (but 61th is Ancestral Recall!!!!!)

In some recent testing this deck give me good result with Artifact Deck (even if i miss the mox monkey in this matchup) and with Hulk Smash (4 standstill >>> 4 Ak and you have also the ak in sideboard to draw 5  )
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Hyperion
Adepts
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Posts: 633


terraformer51
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2003, 04:40:01 pm »

Madness should be included in the testing gauntlet. It is a viable deck in its own right, and is certainly more competitive than Goblins and, in most metagames, Suicide.

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Roar of the Wurm

2 Anger
2 Wonder

4 Fiery Temper
4 Careful Study
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
4 Lionís Eye Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus\n\n

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wuaffiliate
Guest
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2003, 09:04:06 pm »

Quote from: Siral+Nov. 22 2003,00:35
Quote (Siral @ Nov. 22 2003,00:35)4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
3 Cunning Wish
2 Fire/Ice
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
2 Decree of Justice
1 Balance
4 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Sword To Plowshares
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Shattering Pulse
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant
2 Coffin Purge
1 Stifle
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Orim's Chant
1 Accumulated Knowledge


This is a deck very similar to the Landstill but with a better mana base (no mishra) and winner uncounterable (Decree) in great sinergy with Standstill

Yes, i know...i play 61 cards    (but 61th is Ancestral Recall!!!!!)

In some recent testing this deck give me good result with Artifact Deck (even if i miss the mox monkey in this matchup) and with Hulk Smash (4 standstill >>> 4 Ak and you have also the ak in sideboard to draw 5  )
thats like landstill minus alot of manland synergy. the mana base is not all that fragile, anyone who plays the deck can attest to being wasted multiple times and still winning. the mana base is very resiliant to hate, there are answers to everything including non basic hate.

not running manlands is wrong, its just a weak control deck that uses standstill. with manlands its a beast of a contol deck with alot of threats that double as mana.

that list really just looks like a weak keeper build trying to use standstill. you really gain little from running standstill in a deck that isnt really built for it.
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walking dude
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2003, 07:18:39 am »

Thanks for the input.  I must admit that not including madness was a pure oversight on my part, it just slipped my mind. I'm going to add it to the list today. It has put up proven results all over the place in a lot of metagames.
As to landstill, the list looks good and it has had success in Canada and at worlds, but it is a really uncommon deck. I think the lists posted in the thread will be sufficient that people who want to test against lanstill because its common in their meta will be able to find lists and I don't want to make the gauntlet too large. A gauntlet has to be small enough that you can test all your new decks against every deck in the gauntlet or you miss the point.  
Lastly, as far as reanimator goes I'm not going to include it for the same reason I'm not including trix. It's trumped by better decks. Most of the time if you could bring back a dude and attack you could bring back a dragon and just win.
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Black Explosion
Guest
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2003, 02:02:11 pm »

> should certainly be up there. Gay\r is a totally different deck with it's own strengths and weaknesses.

Also, landstill just fucking owns people sometimes. He certainly has won me over with the concept since we started playing together a year ago. Stifile and chalice just make it more sexy than ever.
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Samite Healer
Guest
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2003, 07:36:37 pm »

I think that there should be 2 distinct versions of Keeper in the gauntlet, one with 3 Chalices main, and one with scepters main.  While I see Carl's OSE control deck with scepters there, I believe a Keeper version should be there in addition.  

Also, you may want to isolate the Chronic as a separate entity when comparing scepter builds of keeper, as they play several different cards different (Future Sights, +2 or +3 Fire/Ice, etc.).
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shlnmnk
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2003, 07:49:58 pm »

It would seem like the best idea is to just post the most generic lists as the core of the gauntlet. any mods to the decks that seem to occur locally can be changed on an individual basis. otherwise its just going to be lots of arguing over little details that arent going to matter to everyone.
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Kerzkid11
Guest
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2003, 09:01:46 pm »

Quote from: shlnmnk+Nov. 23 2003,16:49
Quote (shlnmnk @ Nov. 23 2003,16:49)It would seem like the best idea is to just post the most generic lists as the core of the gauntlet. any mods to the decks that seem to occur locally can be changed on an individual basis. otherwise its just going to be lots of arguing over little details that arent going to matter to everyone.
True- but we are trying to establish the best "starting point" decklists here so we can limit how much people have to change them to have the "best" (if one exists) decklist for it.

Also, the natural changes that should occur during playtesting sometimes won't happen if that deck isnt being concentrated on heavily or the tester doesn't have much experience with the deck and is just using it to test against, not to try and play with.
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2003, 09:06:45 pm »

Right.  Likewise, tweaking typical scepter based keeper will not necessary lead to an optimized Chronic list.  If a deck goes a different direction, it must be addressed.  Even with only a few maindeck card differences, the must counters or mage targets or whatever else there might be can be totally different.  This is also true for sideboarding strategy.
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Triple_S
Guest
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2003, 10:44:07 am »

Vengeur Masque is missing.
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wuaffiliate
Guest
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2003, 08:15:57 pm »

whats Vengeur Masque? Wink
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Grand Inquisitor
Guest
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2003, 09:03:29 pm »

As usual, Wu, we thought the quality of the thread couldn't get higher, and you proved us wrong.

For what its worth, the guantlet we're using in Hadley consists of:

Everything you have
+Rector Tendrils (not played much, but still give you exposure to things neither long nor dragon will)
-Monoblack Mask
+Vangeur/Ninja Mask
+Hulk
-OSE
+Chronic
-Foodchain
+MonoRed Gobbo

Obviously, a lot of this hinges on B&R changes, but I think you have a pretty good handle on things.  While landstill has certainly gotten a lot of attention around here lately, I still don't expect to see it any more often than say...pandeburst.  A difficult part to nail down is the Keeper/OSE/Chronic issue.  There are so many combinations of 4-color blue based control that you might see, that we figured we'd have a chalice-based deck, and a scepter-based deck
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the Luke
Guest
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2003, 09:37:37 pm »

Is there a released decklist for "Chronic"?
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wuaffiliate
Guest
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2003, 12:43:32 am »

i do agree landstill is not on the map in alot of areas, much like dragon wasnt for some time. but here it has a very good following(which is growing as you know), including in montreal where they hold large T1 tourneys once a month with a very competative metagame.

my comment on vengue was purely a joke, but i can expand on it. I find vengue to really be slow, it can win, but there are numerous decks which are much more test worthy. im not going to argue about vengue being a bad deck, because it is not. what im trying to say is that it isnt not good enough to warrant alot of testing against.

i would also like to see a chronic deck list

your little "quality" blurb is no better than my short post. i suggest you leave them out of your post as i am going to.
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Gzeiger
Guest
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2003, 01:41:44 am »

Is Goblin Trenches really an optimal inclusion for Keeper? (I really don't know, but it sure looks funny next to Decree of Justice).

I strongly disagree with a few of your choices in the Food Chain deck. Most glaringly, why isn't it running Power? Are you testing that way because you assume that people with power would never play mountains?

Second, you really should have all four Siege-Gang Commanders. Type 1 decks can deal with a swarm of creatures much more quickly than Extended decks for reasons that should be obvious, so it's important to have something ridiculous that Lackeys can do to give you an additional out if you don't have Food Chain or something happens to it.
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Vegeta2711
Guest
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2003, 03:07:50 am »

Ugh, first thing he just took my list for budget Goblin Chains. Obviously if you had power you could run it, but seriously what people with power play Sligh? I guess if you lacked the Bazaar, Workshops or Masks it might be worthwhile.

Off the top of my head I'd just cut the Karpulsan's to throw in Ruby, Lotus and Emerald. I haven't tested w/ Power in the deck at all, so whether I would run the off color moxes in the deck is up for debate.

Second there is no room for 4 SGC, nor do I feel like running 4 of them. Lackey is the only efficent way to drop them down quickly and that's as big a target as Food Chain really. Finally other than against some control and Smokestack, Siege Gang just doesn't do a hell of a lot.

Feel free to mod the deck to your own liking though.

Oh and just to clear something up, 1.x is far better at dealing with creature swarms than T1 decks. It comes down to winning on turn 3 (Or faster) or being able to stall and win on turn 4/5.
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westredale
Guest
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2003, 03:15:47 am »

good, please continue to not put fish in your gauntlet. I like easy wins.\n\n

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