Neo Tog

[jpmeyer]

4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Strip Mine

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet***
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

3 Psychatog
2 Gorilla Shaman

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Intuition
2 Cunning Wish
2 Stifle
1 Time Walk***
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor

3 Duress
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor***

SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Deep Analysis
SB:  2 Pernicious Deed
SB:  1 Capsize
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Terminate
SB:  1 Artifact Mutation
SB:  1 Rack and Ruin
SB:  1 Berserk
SB:  1 Fact or Fiction

Yes, the deck is not running LoA.

1) Because the deck is only running 25 mana sources, yet only 16 of those are blue producers.  Old Tog decks ran 23-24 mana sources, and of those about 17-18 produced blue
2) Because the card is only good if it is active for multiple turns.
3) Because I am a firm believer that any card that you are running 4 of, you should probably also want to run 5 of them as well.  This is in reference to Wasteland/Strip Mine.

The two obvious big changes were adding in a ton of mana denial by taking out Deep Analysis.  Deep Analysis just isn't as important now that nobody is playing Tog.  Mana denial wasn't the best strategy in the Tog mirror before since the deck could still cast AK's and flashback Deep Analysis with just two mana making it easy to draw out of the landkill.

The main reasons behind those changes are to make the deck more able to deal with artifacts and dangerous lands (primarily Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad.)  Originally, Tog had its biggest problems with these decks because it could often stop the first threat but couldn't deal with the followup threat.  Now, these matchups are heavily improved since the Tog deck can still deal with the first threat (usually through Force of Will or Duress,) and then can delay long enough to be able to bring cards Mana Drain online.  The delaying is primarily through the mana denial by reducing the mana level in the Workshop decks just enough to buy a turn or so.  The advantage (other than being able to kill Bazaar of Baghdad) is more subtle, since here Gorilla Shaman usually isn't able to destroy enormous sections of the board, but can still buy enough time to be able to generate more landkill to effectively shut them out of the game.

Against Keeper, the matchup is still favorable, but not overwhelmingly so like it was back when Deep Analysis was maindecked.  Here the mana denial functions to keep them below the level where they can utilze their expensive card drawing cards like Skeletal Scrying and Fact or Fiction while you are still usually able to cast your AK's because of their low CC.

Stifle has been really huge for us.  It's primarily to be used as a landkill card, but if you don't see them early they gain a new use in that they keep your opponent honest.  It's extremely risky to cycle Decree of Justice or to go for an EOT Necromancy when the threat of Stifle is around.

I haven't tested yet against Mask or Fish.  I also didn't test against Long but that's primarily because I expect it to be gone in a week after the restrictions roll through.\n\n

[shlnmnk]

I really like it.

Im a big fan of the land denial aspects.

[Siral]

If we will play a control deck that is based on mana denial strategies why dont simply use keeper or OSE?

[jpmeyer]

Because OSE's clock is horribly slow and Keeper's draw is more expensive and therefore more susceptible to mana denial from other control decks.

This deck actually did start as an OSE deck whose clock we wanted to speed up because what was happening often times (and this was the worst against Dragon) was that the clock was simply so slow that it gave the opponent too long to draw out of the landkill.  That and the fact that Tog is harder to kill than Mishra's Factory.\n\n

[LemanRuss]

Looks very interesting, but I am surprised not to see more graveyard hate in the sideboard... A Tormod's crypt or two would be huge not only against Dragon, but also in the mirror ?

[Maxx Matt]

I hope to be wrong but from the perspective ( mine ) of a Chalice-Keeper player this deck should be nearly unbeteable.

Good job a usual JP.
Why don't you all stop building so good TogBasedDecks?  

[Webster]

Quote Stifle has been really huge for us.  It's primarily to be used as a landkill card, but if you don't see them early they gain a new use in that they keep your opponent honest.  It's extremely risky to cycle Decree of Justice or to go for an EOT Necromancy when the threat of Stifle is around.

I haven't tested yet against Mask or Fish.  I also didn't test against Long but that's primarily because I expect it to be gone in a week after the restrictions roll through.

Against fish, stifle will mostly be an anti-strip effect card which can seems ok. It depends on how you want to play that matchup.

Also, why no merchant scroll? It does seem like it is still worth running especially now that you've cut down your auxillary cards down in quantity like cunning wish.\n\n

[David Hernandez]

JP:
I really like this build!

specifically, i like the mana base (new GAT has problems, even with 22), the 5 strip effects, and the main deck Stifle's.

the Gorilla Shamans are a good addition too.

very solid.

dave.

[Lord of the Goats]

personally when i tested wastes in hulk i found them to be amazing vs bazaar based decks but only "passable" in all other matchups, including shop based decks. i was also testing with a single shaman but no stifles.

this deck looks great if you expect a lot of dragon but i'd be reluctant to play it over a more traditional hulk if i expected a lot of shops.

i'm also a little suprised that you cut the 3rd wish, although i'nm not sure what i'd cut instead.

[jpmeyer]

What I found when I was playing against Workshop decks with older versions of Tog was that I could usually deal with the first threat, but then they would play another within the window between Force of Will and Mana Drain and that card would then usually be enough to force me to be receiving rather than serving.  With the mana denial, it generates a turn or two delay which lets you get the Drains up, and once you get start Mana Draining it forces them to play around you instead of forcing you to play around them.

[st00mie]

I'm impressed.  This is one of the first post-Mirrodin lists I've seen that seems to be paying no attention to Chalice of the Void.  I am a little shocked, since you are running 14 1CC and 10 2CC cards; but pleased at the same time.  If this deck can win despite CotV being run in so many places, the format may not be impacted as heavily by the card as many of us initially expected it would.  Has CotV caused you many problems thus far?

[LemanRuss]

This afternoon I playtested this build a little, and I must admit that it really convinced me. Very good job.  

[Ultima]

This list is very solid.  I tested this list and was very impressed with it.

Unfortunately, I cannot help but accept the idea coming to mind; doesn't this just look like bad Keeper.  

That is to say that when Tog was on top, and all the keeper/control deck players were using Tog innovations to improve their builds, they mostly got the response- "this is just bad Hulk."  No matter how much better the deck got, all of these players had to hear that regardless.

Now it seems that the tables have been turned a bit and I cannot shake the notion that this deck will certainly get that kind of response.

[Zoofields]

Quote (Ultima @ Nov. 23 2003,20:42)doesn't this just look like bad Keeper.  

Not really.  It has a different draw engine and has a drastically different game plan.  Sure, it has some of the same mana denial that keeper runs, but that is about it.

What keeper are you talking about anyway?  Current builds of keeper, or iso-keeper or whatever people are calling it now, is no where near this deck.  I guess the closest would be Steve's keeper of about two months ago.  

By the way, I really like the addition of Stifle.  It is a house.

[kirdape3]

Keeper also has an inferior win condition (neat as Decree is, one turn kill >> multiple turn kill), less efficient card drawing, less efficient mana denial, and most of the time can't actually stand up to this deck.  Stifle is just that dumb.  If they actually play Accumulated Knowledge in their deck, then they can easily mash you because now the last AK is probably in their hands for about five or six cards.

DARGON and Workshop decks come down to Tog now being able to defeat the threats that come down between Force and Drain.  Since the mana denial aspects push Workshop and DARGON into the threat of Drain, they now can't just ignore you.  That's much bigger than you'd think.

We haven't tested against Mask, but I'd assume if we were really afraid of them that we'd just board a pair or trips Plaguebearers and make them cry.  Same with the Fishy legions.

[Smmenen]

Unmask can peel away Plaguebearer homey.  So can hymns.  Mask could be a roughmatchup - especially since your wastelands are dead.  However, no one plays Mask and lots of people play DARGON.  Tog should not be without at least 2 Purges, and I prefer 3 so you can SB in two and leave one in the board.

Steve\n\n

[Jaapmans]

If mana denial is this decks 'thing, then why not add fire/ice? Ice gives you the possiblity to tap your opponents mana sources during their  upkeep, while drawing a card yourself. If you're playing against Sui or Sligh the fire can be pretty good as well.

Suggestion:
-1 Mox Emerald;
-1 Gorilla Shaman;
+2 Fire/Ice

Reason: Ice only costs one blue and replaces itself with another card. Mox Emerald provides acceleration which is hardly needed (comments anyone?). I would remove the Shaman as locally not many powered player play. I guess that if you're playing in a fully powered metagame, then something else should be removed or one could stick to 1 Fire / Ice.

If this is included, then why not add 1 Isochron scepter to the deck as well? One is enough to run into it. I have no clue what to remove then though. Suggestions?

Again: my meta game is lowly powered and with rather much creature based decks. I'm the first to admit that my local meta game makes these picks better than other, fully powered meta games.

Jaap\n\n

[Toad]

Quote (Jaapmans @ Nov. 24 2003,10:13)If mana denial is this decks 'thing, then why not add fire/ice? Ice gives you the possiblity to tap your opponents mana sources during their  upkeep, while drawing a card yourself. If you're playing against Sui or Sligh the fire can be pretty good as well.

As Stephen once said, Fire/Ice is a shitty cantrip that has almost no tempo value. Something like "tempo, you want to talk about tempo? How about I berserk my f*****g Tog? That's tempo, not Icing a land eot. That's bullshit" (1337 variants with AOL translator are better though). Gorilla Shaman is true mana denial, and is awesome against Prison. It's also a Chalice eater, and this is almost as important as the mana denial aspect. I'd run Shaman to kill the Chalice before I'd run them to eat Moxens. Pre Mirrodin Hulk builds were really weak against Chalice because of their really low mana curve. Shaman is a maindeck fine Chalice removal which couples with the mana denial strategy.

This deck runs a far better spot removal than Fire/Ice : Psychatog. Psychatog is a wall against Suicide or Sligh, as both decks can't really deal with it (except Suicide with Specter, but that's what Cunning Wish for spot removal is for).

Quote If this is included, then why not add 1 Isochron scepter to the deck as well? One is enough to run into it. I have no clue what to remove then though. Suggestions?

Isochron Scepter is a fine card but does not fit well in Togs strategy. It's a pretty bad card for your tempo, even if imprinting AK #4 is somewhat awesome. This deck simply needs it, it weakens your strategy. Draw, draw, draw, dump cards in the graveyard, cast a Tog and swing. That's what the deck wants. Tempo is extremely important.

[LemanRuss]

Quote Tog should not be without at least 2 Purges, and I prefer 3 so you can SB in two and leave one in the board.

Please tell me if I am wrong, but Stifle seem to be as efficient against Dragon as Swords to Plowshares, used by Keeper. If it is the case, I am not so worried about the Dragon matchup.

[MoreFling]

Quote (LemanRuss @ Nov. 24 2003,12:18)Please tell me if I am wrong, but Stifle seem to be as efficient against Dragon as Swords to Plowshares, used by Keeper. If it is the case, I am not so worried about the Dragon matchup.

Purge is a LOT more duress/fow-proof then stifle will ever be. That is the simple reason it is better against dragon.

[waSP]

Stifle is not on there for Dragon alone.  Notice that a strong LD aspect was added.  Stifle can be used to landscrew opponents after a waste or 2.

[Ultima]

@Zoomfield

This deck has the exact same mana denial as Keeper minus 2 stifle. Additionally, stifle saw MD testing in Keeper about 2-3 months ago but wasn't found to be worth a MD slot because of its inconsistency.

In response to your question about which keeper, I'm refering to just about every build of Keeper as there doesn't seem to be 1 Keeper that has dropped its mana denial aspects regardless of scepter or chalice.

@ Kirdape and Zoomfield

True, Keeper does have an inferior win condition,drawing engine,etc.  And I imagine that you are definitely right, that the mana denial does bring Tog to higher levels against Workshop and Dragon.

As to the point I was refering, before when Hulk was definitely at the top, Keeper and other control deck players were testing with Tog components to make their decks better.  Regardless of their results, they recieved the same response all the time; "this just looks like bad Hulk" or in other words, your copying Hulk's ideas to your deck and your making it look like an inferior Hulk wannabe.   By look, I mean using the same cards then afterwards, the deck has a Hulkish skeleton but has a few minor differences such as kill condition etc.  The reason for that being that Tog had these components first and abused them first and best as well in many ways.  These aspects of Tog are what helped define the deck as Tog.  

Then Keeper(Zherbus specifically) introduced mana denial as a new defining component of Keeper.

Because mana denial was introduced first to Keeper and other cards were then implemented to compliment this new idea in Keeper(like impulse), its not unreasonable to say that it seems like Hulk is now using the same ideas from Keeper to make itself better and doing the same as what was done previously with the other control decks; this Tog has a Keeperish skeleton but with a different Kill condition and drawing engine, therefore allowing one to generate a similar response to this Tog version much the same as others did in the past; seems like bad Keeper.\n\n

[MoreFling]

Quote (waSP @ Nov. 24 2003,14:22)Stifle is not on there for Dragon alone.  Notice that a strong LD aspect was added.  Stifle can be used to landscrew opponents after a waste or 2.

In case that was directed at me, I'm aware, but that doesn't mean it's great against Dragon. I can't say I'm really impressed if that is your gameplan against it.

[jpmeyer]

Basically, the idea of landkill in Keeper is to generate virtual card advantage and to slow the opponent down.  Tog is less concerned with the first part, since it can gain actual card advantage more easily because of AK, and is more concerned with the second part.  Unlike Keeper though, Tog isn't so concerned about a total LD aspect.  Keeper really wants to keep the LD pressure on because otherwise if they draw out of it it's like it never happened.

With Tog, the kill is much, much faster, and therefore it is better able to take advantage of the time that it's given.  Since its kill is cheaper and kills all in one turn, there is a significantly lesser chance of the opponent ever drawing out.

The reason that the "bad Tog" reasoning is less relevant here is because when you started adding more and more sources of card draw rather than board control cards as your card advantage, you made the deck more and more synergetic with Psychatog and therefore closer to "bad Tog."  By running LD to the Tog deck, it doesn't necessarily make it more focused on gaining total board control.  It's more like how Tog decks in Standard used to run Repulse and Aether Burst simply because they were cheap ways that bought them the extra turn that they needed.  They were never intended to be permanent solutions.  Tog is running Wasteland because it's a 0cc Time Walk, not because they can mana screw their opponent and make their next 2-3 draws dead.\n\n

[Ultima]

Yes, i see the reasoning though, but the conclusion still ends up being the same i believe.

Tog is using LD to gain a better control position by slowing things down.  As you said, JP, Tog is gaining actual card advantage and trying to get  drain on-line by using the wastes as a 0cc timewalk, thus slowing the game and thus attempting to put itself into a better control position. That's really not that different from what Keeper was trying to do in most cases either although in certain matchups, the LD was designed to totally stunt the opponent(ie Hulk).

The difference really between Keeper and Tog in this case is that Keeper has an inferior win condition and draw engine but tries to make up for it by gaining better board control and creating control through this way.  Tog did not need to do this previously because it killed in 1 turn rather fast.  Now because of more board controlling aspects coming into play/ faster kill than tog, ie Chalice / dragon, Tog must now use the same generic idea as Keeper, slow down the game to where it wants it to be for better control.  Its just that Tog has a faster kill and can generate the actual card advantage instead the ideal card advantage.  

More or less, basically one could say that both decks have LD to slow the game down to gain better control but one deck can kill faster then the other.

Keeper's mana denial wasn't designed to be a permanent answer either IMO, just an attempt to gain more control over the game as a whole because even if they drew out of it, that doesn't mean that Keeper couldn't maintain control after or that their control position was dependent on their opponents manabase.

[Andreas]

Just a thought: Is Mystical Tutor really that good in such a redundant deck? Maybe some more carddraw (Fact or Fiction) or the third Cunning Wish would be better?

Also, why Capsize in the sideboard? Are there many situations where the buyback aspect makes it superior to the cheaper Boomerang? If it is because of Chalice, there is another 3cc solution in the board in the form of Rack and Ruin, which as a bonus is not REBable.

[jpmeyer]

You can occasionally Buyback Capsize, which is useful if you need to deal with say, a pair of annoying permanents.  This was originally Naturalize but I haven't noticed many enchantments to deal with.

[Zherbus]

In part because the format is much too fast for things like Future Sight.

[Maxx Matt]

@JP.
talking about te mirror:
even if you packed 3 D.A. in the side to fight the better draw engine of the old tog, during game 1 you aren't able to generate his card advantage and even wasting his land and his mana isn't enough to compete.
 post side the cards used to battle each other were the same, but preisde you can't simply compete. i have noticed this issue playtesting a lot with the new build with an "old" ( pre-mirrodin ) standard deck.
the mana denial simply couldn't be compared to the lack of good, duress proof and game breaking drawers as D.A.
 
While new tog keep wasting colors or lands to acquire some advantage and comntemporary doing not so much, the old TOg cast Moxen and Mana Acceleration "OneShot" to generate cards in hand and contamporary new lands to substitute the wasted ones.

I can reiterate the words that I state in my first approach to this deck right now, after playtesting. It is really very good against any Combo and Artifact deck but doesn't Shine against better streamlined Control Strategy.

If your field is full of the first categories of decks and lack the last one your build is perfect. If you expect a lot of TOg I don't now If you can feel confident to possibly lose a 2 o a 3 game and the match because of unlucky draw having lost the first and more decisive game due to this new deck configuration .

[jpmeyer]

Well, I purposely chose to weaken the mirror matchup to help against the new threats in Dragon and Workshop, seeing how I haven't seen much about Tog since the release of Mirrodin.