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Author Topic: The new B&R list  (Read 12368 times)
Dante
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« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2003, 04:05:44 pm »

Quote from: Solaran_X+Dec. 01 2003,14:43
Quote (Solaran_X @ Dec. 01 2003,14:43)Furthermore, in regards to Ric_Flair not being the Village Idiot - he did practically guarantee us that Yawgmoth's Will WOULD be banned today. But it wasn't. Especially when he put up 1:1 probability for it to be banned. That means 100%. He was so adamant about it, and now that it's not banned, I bet he'll want us all to forget the post that is in my signature.
Actually 1:1 odds means 50% of the time, not 100%.

Bill
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Solaran_X
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« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2003, 04:07:04 pm »

Quote
Quote Quote (Solaran_X @ Dec. 01 2003,14:43)
Furthermore, in regards to Ric_Flair not being the Village Idiot - he did practically guarantee us that Yawgmoth's Will WOULD be banned today. But it wasn't. Especially when he put up 1:1 probability for it to be banned. That means 100%. He was so adamant about it, and now that it's not banned, I bet he'll want us all to forget the post that is in my signature.

Actually 1:1 odds means 50% of the time, not 100%.

Bill

Notice I also said "probability", not "odds". A 1:1 probability means 100%.

EDIT : Now that he ( Ric_Flair ) has been made to look like a fool with his twisted wishes, he will say he meant odds instead of probability to save a little face.\n\n

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Monotone
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« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2003, 04:13:34 pm »

Sweet!! Fireworks on two posts at the same time!!!!

*grabs some of Nevyn's popcorn*
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Fastbond
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« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2003, 04:21:05 pm »

How could they restrict burning wish over dark ritual?  The same justification could be used for dark ritual that they used for chrome mox(ie. fast mana is broken in t1).  Restricting burning wish is ridiculous, it was only good in long in combo with diamond which was restricted anyway.   The part of the argument that doesn't hold up is that you can play four copies of a card with "an efficient way" to get it.  Burning Wish is an incredibly inefficient way for balance(already four ways to get it main) and yawgmoth's will(aside from the first turn or two with diamond and again already four ways to get it).  Burning Wish for timetwister is less efficient than meditate which long wasn't running and academy didn't use all of them.  And Mind Twist is not a very powerful card beyond the first turn.

And the most powerful cards in type one are artifacts not sorceries.

Why should they blanketly restrict innocent tutors when a powerful mana accelerator that has been broken numerous times is allowed to roam free?  As seen in long, chromatic sphere greatly enhances the power of dark ritual.  It's only a matter of time before it's broken again.  The next turn one combo deck is going to be based on this card and not a deck based on being to able to play 4 virtual copies of Mind's "too expensive for type one" Desire via some tutoring effect.
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Jebus
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« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2003, 04:28:24 pm »

I wouldn't say Burning Wish is an innocent tutor.

If they blanketly restricted all innocent tutors then every other wish and several other tutors would be gone.

So, I don't think Golden Wish or Gamble are going anywhere soon.
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Dr. Sylvan
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« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2003, 04:38:56 pm »

Sorry, TeenieBopper, I didn't mean to imply that Type 1 is suffering as a result of 1.5--the reverse is certainly true, though. My point was that WotC probably did the "on principle" restriction at least halfway because they presumed Chrome Mox was too good in 1.5, even though it isn't. I agree the lists must be separated; this is getting ridiculous. Two totally different formats deserve to be treated as such.

-Phil
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Ultima
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« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2003, 04:56:56 pm »

Personally, I expected LED and Burning Wish to get restricted for the following reasons.

LED: Basically, it becomes a Lotus in many decks and that is in line with what WOTC usually restricts as far as mana accelerators

Burning Wish: Everyone was saying that wishes will see restriction and that rumor began right after Gencon.  The way I saw it though was if any of the wishes got restricted then its Burning because Burning fetches the broken stuff and Cunning fetches answers.

I wasn't sure if chrome mox would be restricted but it wasn't really going to matter as they barely see play as is.(for the moment)

I did expect spoils to get restricted as well but i suppose that will need more time.
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Bastian
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« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2003, 05:01:19 pm »

Type 1.5 would only get a separated list if it was at least as popular as type 1, which, unfortunetely, it isn't. I'm not happy to see Chrome Mox go because I liked the card and I think it should have proven itself before being restricted (and banned from 1.5).

I understand that it could be eventually used in a combo deck, but I think that right now there's more danger of Spoils which has been already tested and apparently works rather than the new Mox which had yet to prove itself.

Besides, if they go and ban Chrome Mox based on the "fast mana must go" why is Workshop and Dark Ritual around? Workshop can pull out consistently Chalices that can wreck a whole deck on turn 1 along with a plethora of dangerous artifacts that should take time to play.

Along the same reasoning why is Dark Ritual still around? It is fast mana too, and it always finds its way into combo too!? But no... they had to go and restrict a card that hasn't even proved itself.

I am happy they restricted Burning Wish and LED. At least they got that right. No more Long... For him who suggested that the wish shouldn't be restricted... Remember that Steven had already prepared a post-restriction Long.dec if they hadn't restricted Burning Wish as well. As it is the deck's dead.

Good riddance...

I wonder why they go over the trouble of making good cards just to restrict them soon after. I'm sure they knew that Chrome Mox was too good for their standards...\n\n

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Dante
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« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2003, 05:07:19 pm »

Quote from: Solaran_X+Dec. 01 2003,15:07
Quote (Solaran_X @ Dec. 01 2003,15:07)
Quote
Quote Quote (Solaran_X @ Dec. 01 2003,14:43)
Furthermore, in regards to Ric_Flair not being the Village Idiot - he did practically guarantee us that Yawgmoth's Will WOULD be banned today. But it wasn't. Especially when he put up 1:1 probability for it to be banned. That means 100%. He was so adamant about it, and now that it's not banned, I bet he'll want us all to forget the post that is in my signature.

Actually 1:1 odds means 50% of the time, not 100%.

Bill

Notice I also said "probability", not "odds". A 1:1 probability means 100%.

EDIT : Now that he ( Ric_Flair ) has been made to look like a fool with his twisted wishes, he will say he meant odds instead of probability to save a little face.
well..probability of 1:1 doesn't make sense...probability is expressed in % (0-100) or in terms of 0-1 (i.e. probability of 1 is same as 100%, 0.5 is 50%,etc)...but I get your point...ok enough on that, back on topic.

bill
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Moxlotus
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« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2003, 05:13:23 pm »

So here is the question.  Are innovative deckbuilders going to do to Dutch Tendrils what they did to Long? If so, Tendrils isn't dead
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Phantom Tape Worm
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« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2003, 05:30:05 pm »

Quote from: TeenieBopper+Dec. 01 2003,12:34
Quote (TeenieBopper @ Dec. 01 2003,12:34)
Quote from: Dr. Sylvan+Dec. 01 2003,12:17
Quote (Dr. Sylvan @ Dec. 01 2003,12:17)I personally think that the unofficial Chrome Mox explanation is "fast mana doesn't belong in 1.5"
No.  Don't even start that.  We got the blame for earthcraft.  You looked at us when that announcement went up, and we looked back saying "What the hell are you looking at us for.  We knew it was a bad combo deck too."  Now, I look to Type One players and say stop building decks that destroy my format.  That's only  half in jest.

I hate to get off topic, but I think it needs to be said.  The lists need seperating, I think we can all agree with that.  1.5 players can't do that all on their own.  We need your help.  Go and play 1.5 a little.  Finally see for yourself that it isn't Type One Junior.  

Three cards got banned today.  None of them were distorting to the environment.  And one of the bannings completely kills a fun, competative, but nowhere near dominant deck.

I wish I had more of a point besides a rant and my displeasure with the way things are, but I don't.  :-/
Sorry about destroying your format  

Ironically, though it needed to happen so that 1.5 can be corrected through a restriction in 3 months.  Spoils Dragon is not a deck that should be in 1.5.

About this whole lists seperation thing though...I completely disagree.  The 1.5 format has been set up this way for a reason.  1.5 has been set up so that when type 1 becomes too degenerate for the tastes of most people, those people can then move on to a format that still supports their older cards but plays out like the game of magic was intended.  TYPE 1.5 is SUPPOSED TO BE TYPE 1 JUNIOR, it even gets the "hand-me-down's" in the form of players who became disenchanted with type 1.

It is assumed that the type 1 restricted list is filled with degenerate cards.  Why would you want ANY degenerate cards in a format that you don't want to become degenerate?  Degenerate cards lead to degenerate decks, which in turn leads to a degenerate format.  And if you want that kind of brokenness, why are you playing 1.5?  Go play type 1, sheesh.

I say protect 1.5 from becoming type 1 part 2 by keeping the lists together.


That said, they should have also hit workshop and errata'd dragon to protect 1.5
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Bastian
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« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2003, 05:47:54 pm »

Perhaps Chrome Mox wasn't good enough to warrant its restriction. Thus it makes sense that people are unhappy the way the restrictions hit type 1.5.

OK, im shutting up now. I promise I'll leave the mox alone:P\n\n

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Ric_Flair
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« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2003, 06:01:17 pm »

I will state it right here:  I believed that they were going to Ban Will.  I believed that it was almost a guarantee, given MaRo's comments and the traditional DCI disdain for combo.

Solaran_X called me out and he was right.

That said, I think that the reasonable mind (sit down Solaran) would see that: a) they wanted to get Long; b) V. Madness was not a problem and was actually a healthy deck; and c) Banning Will would be more of a fix to Long than restricting Burning Wish and LED.  Add to this the fact that only Long was BASED on Will and it still seems like the right card to move against.  Sure other decks use Will, but none of them depend on it to win.  Other decks just use it because it so broken there is virtually no reason not to.  

And here is the real reason they did not ban Will: they don't like banning cards in T1.  But guess what?  Eventually they are going to have to.  We can see right now that restricting certain cards is not enough.  When there are enough of these cards and marginal tutors to get them, they will have to ban a card.  I thought this time was the time, but it wasn't.  Eventually, the rising tide will get too high and they will have to change their minds.  The clock starts now on a power card free banned list.  Time will prove that if this was not a mistake, it was certainly a close call.  Banned card WILL be back.  

As for the signature, I changed it twice.  Hehe.

Oh yeah, and congradulations to Steve and Andy for simultaneously breaking a card that was for a long time deemed one of the worst ever made.  The Mana Drain.com: Getting crap restricted one card at a time.  YES.\n\n

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Dante
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« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2003, 06:23:49 pm »

The reasonable thing to do without affecting other decks would have been to Ban storm cards (or the whole mechanic).  But that's admitting too much R&D guilt.
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MuzzonoAmi
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« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2003, 06:26:32 pm »

Actually, I think you just have something against brokenness that you can't seems to reconcile with enjoying playing Type 1. You can't have it both ways. Nothing needed banned. I don't give a damn about Chrome Mox. It was a sub-par card. I do, however, think that all we needed to do was slow Long down, not kill it outright. Just hurt it enough so the metagame can 'cope' (which from my perspective, it already had) and things will be alright. We will never see bannings in this format, because we have several of what are likely the most compotent deckbuilders in the game. People can find answers to problem cards without bannings. Just get off the dead horse. It's not going to happen.
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Matt The Great
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« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2003, 06:49:31 pm »

Don't pine for Madness. Madness is no more 'dead' than GAT was after losing three Gush. It only lost three cards, and there's PLENTY of cards waiting to step up to the challenge - off-color Moxen, Mana Crypt, even ESG are all playable. Yes, Madness took a hit, but it also lost one of its two NIGHTMARE matchups (the other being Dragon). It's not as fast as it used to be, but now it doesn't have to be.

Madness might be dead in 1.5, though, since there it loses all four LEDs and also there's not really anything to take their place.\n\n

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Bastian
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« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2003, 07:47:30 pm »

Quote
Quote Madness might be dead in 1.5, though, since there it loses all four LEDs and also there's not really anything to take their place.

That would depend on how the t1.5 madness decks should be. Now with LED banned in the format it can probably survive as something more similiar to the extended madness decks.
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jntemp777
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« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2003, 08:08:23 pm »

Quote from: Dante+Dec. 01 2003,15:23
Quote (Dante @ Dec. 01 2003,15:23)The reasonable thing to do without affecting other decks would have been to Ban storm cards (or the whole mechanic).  But that's admitting too much R&D guilt.
So true.  That would be like saying, "yep, we screwed up when it came down to designing cards that might end up getting played in your format".   They're never going to admit that.

I don't think that Long is dead.  Long/academy variants have taken a hit, but they'll be back with modifications.  

It's discouraging to see that wizards wanted to weaken combo, but completely ignored the combo components of other strong combo decks.\n\n

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Dante
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« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2003, 09:21:40 pm »

Quote from: jntemp777+Dec. 01 2003,19:08
Quote (jntemp777 @ Dec. 01 2003,19:08)
Quote from: Dante+Dec. 01 2003,15:23
Quote (Dante @ Dec. 01 2003,15:23)The reasonable thing to do without affecting other decks would have been to Ban storm cards (or the whole mechanic).  But that's admitting too much R&D guilt.
So true.  That would be like saying, "yep, we screwed up when it came down to designing cards that might end up getting played in your format".   They're never going to admit that.

I don't think that Long is dead.  Long/academy variants have taken a hit, but they'll be back with modifications.  

It's discouraging to see that wizards wanted to weaken combo, but completely ignored the combo components of other strong combo decks.
They didn't want to weaken combo in general, just Long.  Dragon isn't as fast and is more susceptible to hate-ish cards (and just good cards like StP, naturalize, seal, etc).

It's good to see a coherent reason for burning wish and not cunning wish.\n\n

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-CF-
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« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2003, 09:37:26 pm »

Long _based_ on Will!?

Banning Will wouldn't hurt Long that much, actually. I haven't played nearly as many games as others with it, but I guess there has been 50+ so far. Instead of Will I will usually wish for Diminishing Returns when goldfishing (because drawing cards is more fun) and I still have tons of first turn kills. If you don't have Will, you just adapt. Trust me, banning Will wouldn't even be a toothpick in the coffin of Long ;o)

The card is stupid though. I wouldn't have missed it if it was in fact banned.

--
Chris
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LordLamneth
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« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2003, 11:14:30 am »

I'm surprised that nothing was declared to be on the "watch" list. Maybe that's coming this Friday.

Should've restricted Workshop. My thinking is that they don't want to piss off the people who have spent over $400 on them.

3 cards... the list just seems a little short, doesn't it?

LordLamneth
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iLL_Dawg
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« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2003, 01:00:35 pm »

I really don't think that LED needed to get the axe, since it was part of what made an aggro deck playable, and isn't that what Wizards wants?

Madness will survive the restriction of LED.  I've already got some ideas to playtest. . . I should be able to get something together before next month that is still competative.

-=ADAM=-
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2003, 01:59:33 pm »

Lets not kid ourselves, Yawgmoth's Will and Burning Wish was the heart of Long. It was only in desperate situations where a Draw Seven or several Mana Accelerants weren't in the grave yard that you HAD to resort to Diminishing Returns, which was always the back up plan.

Nevertheless, I agree with MuzzunoAmi in that the DCI didn't need to make any restrictions to have a balanced format. However, the absence of Long allows even more versatility and health to the environment. The fact that Bloodmoon is now fast enough to return to the format is huge, and Isochron Scepter is arguably far superior to Chalice now in Control decks. Decks can now relax their extreme concentration on break neck speed, and that makes for a more enjoyable game all around.

Concerning the restrictions that were made, they are a crying shame.

LED, by itself, was far from abusive, and the loss of a quality Aggro deck is hard felt in T1 and T1.5.

The restriction of Burning Wish is a blatant attempt to prevent Yawgmoth's Will from being banned, and I think that is ridiculous. When a restricted card defines the format something is seriously wrong. I hate Yawg Will more than old school Balance  The possibility for Wish/Will abuse still exists with Death Wish anyway, oh well.

Chrome Mox seemed like a knee jerk banning, soo much for budget acceleration. Considering the almost autonimous reaction to Chrome Mox, it will be interesting to see what happens to Spoils of the Vault in the near future. It seems hypocritical to restrict one and not the other.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2003, 02:02:03 pm »

If Mirrodin had not come in, alot more people might have turned onto Long and it would have become a problem.

Also, if Long didn't get the axe, I would have done a huge PR campaign on it - going through all the matchups, one-by-one showing how to win them.  BEGINNING with a DECK BY DECK analysis of Long versus the Waterbury Top 8.

That would have been fun.

Steve
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Akuma (gio)
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« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2003, 02:45:13 pm »

And now we don't get anything? Break something else and do a "DECK BY DECK analysis of XXXX versus the [Random Tournament] Top 8."
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Dr. Sylvan
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« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2003, 03:24:04 pm »

Quote from: Akuma (gio)+Dec. 02 2003,13:45
Quote (Akuma (gio) @ Dec. 02 2003,13:45)And now we don't get anything? Break something else and do a "DECK BY DECK analysis of XXXX versus the [Random Tournament] Top 8."
Haven't you heard? The combo players have already laughed this one off and decided that they can live with 10% first-turn kills as long as the rest of the time they 'slow-play' it to second turn. We'll be hearing from Smmenen soon enough. Only this time instead of "Burning Through Type One With the Fastest Deck In Magic" it'll be "Chuckling at the DCI With the Most Restricted Deck In Magic". I look forward to the next build of said deck with an eagerness only matched by my hatred for the archetype. =)

-Phil
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jpmeyer
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« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2003, 03:24:35 pm »

Quote from: LordLamneth+Dec. 02 2003,11:14
Quote (LordLamneth @ Dec. 02 2003,11:14)I'm surprised that nothing was declared to be on the "watch" list. Maybe that's coming this Friday.

Should've restricted Workshop. My thinking is that they don't want to piss off the people who have spent over $400 on them.

3 cards... the list just seems a little short, doesn't it?

LordLamneth
The watch list doesn't like really exist.  It's been used once, maybe twice, and doesn't actually do anything.
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Team Meandeck: "As much as I am a clueless, credit-stealing, cheating homo I do think we would do well to consider the current stage of the Vintage community." -Smmenen
Dante
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« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2003, 03:47:22 pm »

Quote from: LordLamneth+Dec. 02 2003,10:14
Quote (LordLamneth @ Dec. 02 2003,10:14)I'm surprised that nothing was declared to be on the "watch" list. Maybe that's coming this Friday.

Should've restricted Workshop. My thinking is that they don't want to piss off the people who have spent over $400 on them.

3 cards... the list just seems a little short, doesn't it?

LordLamneth
..or maybe there's no particular reason to restrict them?
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dandan
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« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2003, 01:57:16 am »

You guys realise that combo decks are now forced to put YawgWin in the maindeck, right?

With the much-heralded death of Long, TPS, NeoAcademy and other 'fast' combo variants benefit from a much reduced level of SB and maindeck hate and the likelihood that development time will not be wasted by a coming B&R change. As SBs change to battle Dragon, classic combo with a Storm kill only gets stronger.

In any case, post-B&R, we have a varied metagame and relatively few annoyed people. The DCI couldn't really have got a better result.
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Shock Wave
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« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2003, 02:59:55 am »

I really think that the new B/R list implies the return of Keeper and other control hyrbrids as the premier decks to contend with. Dragon simply will not be able to cut it any longer as a result of the influx in control decks. It's funny how everybody is predicting that Dragon will now own the format; I believe the opposite is true.

In my opinion, R&D did a great job with the new restricted list. They eliminated the deck that was taking away the interactive element of the game, and reintroduced the viability of some archetypes that Long had a stranglehold on. The future looks bright for Type 1. I'm definitely looking forward to the new, diverse metagame that the forthcoming restrictions will create.\n\n

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