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Author Topic: @ Combo players: Where to Throw Ourselves Now?  (Read 8507 times)
Fastbond
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« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2003, 03:37:04 pm »

I definately support the addition of Crop Rotation.  It's mana advantage which is more important in this deck than card advantage.  I also recommend the removal of Mind's Desire and Yagmoth's Bargain.  How are you going to get to six mana without the Diamonds?  Channel is bad because it costs GG.  It doesn't help you cast a time twister card.  It doesn't get you the colorless mana for a twister because if you can cast the card then you already have it and it doesn't get the colored mana you need.
I don't like mystical or vampiric.  Why tutor for a timetwister when you can just cast a meditate or returns?  It doesn't have the diamond synergy anymore.

Other considerations:
Cabal Ritual-Good with 3 or 4 Tendrils of Agony but otherwise not.

4 Meditate or 4 Diminishing Returns-These are the best two draw options.  These cards also facilitate Force of Will.

Elamri's Vineyard-Likely not good but testable

Mishra's Workshop-it's better than helm of awakening with eggs but the problem is the eggs aren't good enough, Darkwater Egg is the only egg that's good.  Otherwise the eggs don't do their job of streamlining mana.  But otherwise you play a workshop then play a mana artifact and turn workshop mana into usable mana.  I'm going to work on a version with this card.  And remember the original long.dec was originated by finding a way to use mana from a card with a brutal draw back.

Helm of Awakening-not good because two colorless mana should be used for draw.  But perhaps good with workshop.

The key to building a new version is to find cards that emulate timetwister and cards that help you get mana to cast timetwister cards.
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VideoGameBoy
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« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2003, 08:26:49 pm »

Maybe in this environment Hurkyl's is finally a good maindeck choice?

I'm not saying turn the deck into TPS, but hell, Chalice rapes this deck, we run enough mana artifacts to abuse it, and Tendrils is the kill card, after all.
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MoreFling
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« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2003, 04:20:20 am »

IF I were to play the deck, I would play this deck. Who cares about hate? It will die down regardless.

Maybe I'd replace Time Walk for Crop Rotation, but I haven't decided yet. It can use a few other test runs.
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Maxx Matt
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« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2003, 06:28:17 am »

@MoreFLling: Some tests revealed that the better killing engine of your Deck is probably Mind's Desire, followed by all the other Goodies... Keeping ti in the side and relying only on a Single Wish to Search For it seems to me pointless.

How do you think that it work better than switching -1 Diminishing Returns in the side with a Maindeck MInd's Desire?


With the switch of the metagame, more Control Oriented, I think, as you , that resolving a Swarm even during game one is better than Duressing the opponent letting him to Topdeck the Answer he Need te next turn. with the Losing of some speed, because of restriction, the deck need consistency to be played well and safely. Maindeck Swarms is the way to follow.

Maybe I would cut the Chorme Mox for the missing Necropotence. Even if it would always be your "B Winning Plan", Necro is the better first turn choice agaisnt Hulk, Keeper, Ur-Phid and So on... too much decks to beat nowadays to lose a so important winning option

---------

Watching these lately proposed decks, they would appear as near as ever to the "Style " of an Old Academy with some new, huge and better options.
Watching at this old deck I don't Know if keeping in ESG and/or Cromatic Sphere and /or Brainstom would be better than the Old Helms and Meditate and Impulse Engine

Toying around them I would try to fit Helms AND Spheres to really Gain some mana advantage,  Draw some cards for free and have a nice color fix effects for my best defence ( Xantid Swarms.. ). Not to saying that after resolving a Swarm and having a single Helm in play ( not an overkill option, but a real "morespeed" one ) let you to save some mana for the draw seven and let you go off the second turn with MORE consistency then now that LED and Wish are gone.

I'm no more a fan of Consult in this Deck. Being a more Tolarian-Academy-Based-Deck than the previous one I think, according to you, that Crop Rotation should be the best choice to do ( ... it let you cantrip a land after the Opponent's First Turn Wasteland and go off the turns after this one with academy..  nice work for a green spell Wink)


my 2 cents
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MoreFling
Guest
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2003, 03:37:00 pm »

I hadn't decided what to cut yet for the mind's desire, but it's not the 2nd returns. It's just too good.

I'll try to comment on the rest of your post, but I can't really grasp it, so I'll have to read it a few more times.
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VideoGameBoy
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« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2003, 07:05:24 pm »

For one thing, Morph, you have 8 maindecked defensive cards.  Is that much necessary?

Force of Will is a great call, because it is free (somewhat easing the loss of LED).

Xantid Swarm is a little iffy maindecked, even though it is great with ESG.

I guess what I am saying is that if I were to maindeck that much anti-hate, I would rather play Rectal Trix/Agony or more traditional TPS.\n\n

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Maxx Matt
Guest
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2003, 04:03:44 am »

This is what I have assembled mubling about my previous words and the few later comments (I know that lists don't add to much to the conversation but it had a bit different approach to the game):

       1 Black Lotus
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Mana Crypt
       1 Mana Vault
       1 Lotus Petal
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Mox Ruby
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mox Emerald
       1 Lion's Eye Diamond
       4 Chromatic Sphere
       4 Dark Ritual
      
       1 Tolarian Academy
       2 Glimmervoid
       4 Gemstone Mine
       4 City of Brass


       1 Demonic Tutor      
       1 Burning Wish
       1 Vampiric Tutor
       1 Mystical Tutor
       1 Frantic Search
       1 Crop Rotation

       1 Memory Jar
       1 Wheel of Fortune
       1 Windfall  
       1 Timetwister
       1 Time Spiral
       1 Tinker


       1 Ancestral Recall
       1 Mind's Desire
       1 Yawgmoth's Will
       1 Time Walk
       4 Impulse
       4 Force of Will
       2 Abeyance
       1 Tendrils of Agony
       4 Helms of Awekening

I haven't added all the academy engine but only the part that seemed to me necessary to rise the count of spell played and that can capitalize a good advantage between permanent rate and mana rate. Even if the main mana producer is tolarian academy and then a blu producer, the add of the sphere AND the helms add an higher color fix. I don't have any problem on setting the combo on turn 2 after taking a first turn to resolve a single Helm.

From the perspective of a combo player, Helms add some weapon to this deck playing against your worst enemy... Workshop.dec and Sphere of Resistence, which at least equalize the count of mana spent for casting spells.

I lowered the number of defensive spell from 8 to 6 because 4 swarms are too much bad draw after resolving the first one and while we are going off and the ESG aren't soo good without them.

This deck now doesn't require the fine recurring strategy, that used Academy, to setup the combo that now is composed only by a single spell and with so much tutors and so much cantrips should be near impossible not to find the single Tendril to Win.

The control matchup isn't so weakened taking out 2 swarms from the count of the defensive spell and swapping them with Abeyance because either swarm and Abeyance are off color and usually you cast them only via sphere and the "2 cards drawn" via abeyance&Sphere is better thatn the "single card drawn" from the sphere. After resolving an Abeyance or a Swarm you usually win, but if you were countered and try to go off because not too many opponents have double counter back-up and you have you own FoW to battle thies, cantripping the Abeyance should be an interesting effect in this deck.

I take out two of the "Winners" of this deck ( Necro and Bargain )for a reason. Helms and all the other spells usually are enough to Tendril the opponent for 10 and win.
You can cast more things after resolving a single Helms and so on so even if they were hard to take out I do this choice and don't regret a lot their missing.

If more test should prove that I can't win with consistency without them I'll swap a Sphere, a GlimmeringVoid or an Helm for Bargain.
 
my 2 cents
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