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Author Topic: U/r Blood Moon Control  (Read 15320 times)
David Hernandez
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« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2003, 05:08:36 pm »

Everyone is saying that Bloodmoon is great, and I agree, but if this is true then Back To Basics is also good.  Why splash red when you can run B2B on 1 or 2 colors?

As for Raise the Alarm, if you keep it in the SB and wish for it, then you can still Imprint it on Scepter without running White.  I think this is ok to do as long as you dont run other cards that you cant actually cast with the mana in your deck.

dave
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PucktheCat
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« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2003, 05:20:15 pm »

@ Dave on BM vs B2B: True enough.  The only question is whether:

A.  Red is something you want to splash anyway.  This ups Blood Moon's stock quite a bit.

B.  A single use of certainly lands is too dangerous to handle.  Bazaar springs to mind here.

An additional question you might ask yourself (and I haven't thought about it much myself) is whether it is the quality or quantity of mana you fear more from your opposing decks.  Blood Moon effectively makes the entire game about the colored mana requirements because the colorless mana is rarely a problem.  Back to Basics does the opposite.  It rarely is impossible to get the colored mana you need for a single spell but you often can't cast more than one because of the colorless requirement tapping to many lands.

Leo\n\n

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David Hernandez
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« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2003, 05:42:47 pm »

i agree that having Red in a U/r build is probably a good idea   , but looking at most of these decklists makes me think that running B2B over Bloodmoon, and then running a couple of Daze's to bring back the Volcanic's could be very strong.

later posts are running Wastelands and Man Lands, which B2B would hurt more, so i can see using Bloodmoon instead.

my main point was that while Bloodmoon is one of my favorites, we shouldn't forget about B2B because it may have a place in some of these builds instead.

Dave.
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PucktheCat
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« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2003, 05:49:33 pm »

I wasn't disagreeing.  I think B2B is something to think about.  There might be a B2B U/b Hulk out there somewhere, for that matter.  I was just trying to lay out the points of analysis for considering which NBLH to play right now.  I think the combination of the absolute goodness of red artifact hate right now combined with the absoluted broke-ness of even a single Bazaar activation makes the Moon better, but B2B is always a consideration.

Leo
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David Hernandez
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« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2003, 05:53:58 pm »

I agree.

dave.
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Tindemans
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« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2003, 06:48:57 pm »

Quote from: PucktheCat+Dec. 04 2003,16:00
Quote (PucktheCat @ Dec. 04 2003,16:00)Edit:  Tindemans, I just noticed your deck is 61 cards and has no Mox Jet.  Were these intentional?  Also, you run no strips which seems a bit risky to me even in a deck with 3x Blood Moon.  Have you found that to be a problem?
I haven't got much time to reply, so I can't read through all posts after this one, but I'll reply at this. at the last moment I added a Volcanix island, and I intentionally played no Jet. First I played 3 moxes, then started thinking about 5, and I ended up with 4. after playing with it on the tourney I liked that amount.

about Shaman, it's a very nice card, and 2 can be played for sure, that is if space can be found. I didn't find it.

about Raise the alarm in my build and in non-white splashing decks, in a flash I saw a comment about it being useless; you can better imprint an Abeyance? you need a kill right? it's a very effective kill. and for this you certainly don't need to splash white, you'll wish for it when you need it and you have a scepter. also when you do play white it can be just usefull once in a while too.

about the strip(s) btw, of course you can play it/them, but they remain colorless mana producing lands. for playing 5, I just didn't find a proper space for it. for playing some less, I didn't find space as well, and the fact remains that you don't play any search in the deck, so you can just draw into it. after dropping a moon it's useless, so often when you draw it later it will be.
I don't think it's really needed. Wastes at least. Strip could be nicely worked in since it is able to strengthen your Moon. but what to remove for it?

Arthur.
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BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2003, 01:20:14 am »

I'm not sure I agree with your thoughts on Raise the Alarm. In a deck running White, why wouldn't you C.Wish for Decree instead if your looking for a dedicated kill card? Abeyance is simply a stronger card both with and without a Scepter to use it, and it is effectively a win condition vs some decks.

In decks that don't run White, is pulling Raise the Alarm better than a Fire/Ice? Its a 5 turn win condition vs a 10 turn win condition granted, but Fire/Ice ignores blockers.

The only justification I can see for the card is too piss off people with Smokestacks
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Matt The Great
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« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2003, 01:42:40 am »

Because Decree isn't an instant.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2003, 02:04:12 am »

Ya, i'm a moron. Thanks Matt.
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st00mie
Guest
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2003, 03:42:33 am »

@Mana Drain vs Lack Thereof:  In a list that is running Wishes, Scepter, and/or Morphling, I think Mana Drain is not only great, but essential.  Unless you are running less than 5 or so of these cards combined, you should easily have a place for the mana.

@Tolarian Academy:  Considering this decks manabase, it seems that Tolarian Academy would rarely prove more than a Wasteland target.

@Blood Moon vs Back to Basics:  I think the debate between these two cards really comes down to a question of speed.  Back to Basics has the potential of making your opponents land drops less symmetrical (i.e. Mishra's Workshop) in the long run, as well as making a Bazaar a one shot card.  The tradeoff is it essentially takes a turn to work, so you have to say 'go ahead and use your land one last time.'  Blood Moon has a speed advantage; it works the second it hits the table, but gives you less of an advantage over the course of the game. Their lands will still be providing mana, making their land drops far more symmetrical with yours than would be the case with Back to Basics.

In the current metagame, I think choosing Blood Moon is the better choice.  If things slow down a bit, we may want to consider using Back to Basics.
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Rico Suave
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« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2003, 09:45:54 am »

Quote from: st00mie+Dec. 05 2003,03:42
Quote (st00mie @ Dec. 05 2003,03:42)The tradeoff is it essentially takes a turn to work, so you have to say 'go ahead and use your land one last time.'  
Not if their land is already tapped when you play it.
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st00mie
Guest
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2003, 12:29:12 pm »

Well, I guess what I really meant to say is 'go ahead and use each of your lands one last time,' more in regard to their future land drops.  Sorry about that.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2003, 01:32:37 pm »

Um, BTB has awful synergy with Scepter in U/r. So i'm just going to assume your talking about Mono-U Scepter based control with BTB, which is a thought. I think it loses too much versatility tho', no Mox Monkey, an inability to hard cast Fire/Ice, no ability to pre-empt Bazaar. Where exactly are we gaining anything?
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st00mie
Guest
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2003, 04:18:53 pm »

Well, I would assume that if for some reason Back to Basics was run we would opt for Basic Mountains in place of Volcanics, and Fetchlands will still work under a Back to Basics.  I however feel that Blood Moon is the correct card for the slots.
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David Hernandez
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« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2003, 06:46:58 pm »

You could still run Volcanics if you used a couple of Daze's and a Gush.  

But, I agree with PuckTheCat that B2B probably doesn't belong in this deck in the fashion that he is trying to build it.

I only brought it up as an option that could be worked into some builds, and felt that B2B has enough potential to keep in mind.

--Dave.
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specialk
Guest
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2003, 01:00:24 am »

is bloodmoon really needed when miners can do the same job and aganist aggro aren't completely dead.  Against stax it gives you another permanent to tap or use on you upkeep to remove a permanent that they control.
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Tindemans
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« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2003, 08:50:21 am »

Sheesh everybody just try Blood Moon in a serious tourney!
You'll see.
You don't have to play it, do as you please.
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Milton
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« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2003, 12:54:46 pm »

Quote
Quote Sheesh everybody just try Blood Moon in a serious tourney!
You'll see.
You don't have to play it, do as you please.

It's a metagame call.

I still contend that Bloodmoon is too slow against Dragon, one of Phid's bad match-ups.  It's also not very good against fast aggro.  Suicide, for example, gave me some serious problems at yesterday's tournament.  I only really won due to some play errors by my opponent.  If I had maindeck Bloodmoons instead of Misdirections I really would have lost horribly.

Now, if Keeper makes a comeback then maybe Bloodmoon isn't a bad call  Against control, such as Hulk, I prefer more card drawing spells, though, and I probabally would prefer more card drawing against Keeper as well.

Look, what are Phid's worst match-ups?  Is Bloodmoon good in those match-ups?  Is your meta filled with non-basics?  Is fast aggro a problem?  Is control a serious problem?  Are fast combo decks like Dragon and Mask a problem?  You seriously have to answer these questions before maindecking Bloodmoon in Phid.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2003, 05:25:23 pm »

Miners? They are SLOW as hell and prone to Creature Removal. Bloodmoon = I win now card, Miner = I wasted a card slot.

Bloodmoon isn't supposed to be fast enough to stop a Bazaar from hitting, its supposed to be fast enough to deprive them of their late game with Squee and wreck their manabase. If a BM does hit, you win.

Milton, I think you fail to see in what decks BM fits and how it should be used. You can't throw a single hate card at Dragon game 2 and expect to win, in fact it will get your ass kicked REAL good vs an expert Dragon player. A combination of MD Stifle and Bloodmoon just PWNZ Dragon, B/U/g or Spoils. You have to learn how to use Bloodmoon inconjunction with the rest of your deck in order to make it effective. With Stifle and Wasteland depriving Dragon of crucial early tempo and devolpment by wrecking their Manabase, Bloodmoon becomes a lock that is more than fast enough.

I don't think we can manage to convince you of anything Milton if you play in a meta where MisD is the Bomb and Phid is even playable. You haven't presented anything to bolster your case against, Stifle, Bloodmoon or Scepter ... so I don't see the point on carrying this conversation much further. Have you even bothered to playtest these new concepts at all?
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Tindemans
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« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2003, 06:35:04 pm »

Quote from: Milton+Dec. 07 2003,18:54
Quote (Milton @ Dec. 07 2003,18:54)I still contend that Bloodmoon is too slow against Dragon, one of Phid's bad match-ups.  It's also not very good against fast aggro.  
Try my decklist against Dragon. side out the AK/Intuition, put in 8, and you just whoop ass. I lost no game in the two dragon match-ups in Eindhoven. Sure it's not the Moon alone, but along with the rest you'll win. however when Moon hits and comes through, you're in a very good position.

and against aggro, sure it's not in the deck deck for it.
however if it hits 70 or 75 % of the metagame (I mentioned a serious metagame), and hits it hard, it's okey right? you'll have three sb slots against the rest.
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Milton
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« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2003, 06:42:19 pm »

Quote
Quote I don't think we can manage to convince you of anything Milton if you play in a meta where MisD is the Bomb and Phid is even playable. You haven't presented anything to bolster your case against, Stifle, Bloodmoon or Scepter ... so I don't see the point on carrying this conversation much further. Have you even bothered to playtest these new concepts at all?

Me?  Playtest?  Are you joking?  That's all I have been doing latley.  Playtesting and playing in three tournaments a month.

First, I was for the longest time one of Bloodmoon's most staunch supporters.  I played it all the time.  When Fetchlands came out I thought Bloodmoon could still compete.  I played it in my board at Gen Con Worlds this past summer and managed to get one into play turn two agaisnt Hulk, but he had one Island and that's all he needed to play AK, DA, Mystical, he could still Force and he was quickly able to play a Tog and crush me.  That was a wake-up for me.  Over the past few months I dropped Bloodmoon from the board after noticing I was never siding it in.  This was tough because I played Bloodmoon Keeper for a looooooong time, up until Gen Con 2002 when Gro emerged as dominant.  I switched to Phid because I thought it was more focused, more redundant and, having only two colors, was less susceptable to hate.  It ignored Null Rod, had more counters than Keeper and Hulk and had a decent amount of card drawing.  It sported a few Gorilla Shaman also, a card that is just tremendous in the current meta.  I think I have posted my current decklist somewhere here, only to have everyone laugh at it, which makes me wonder if those people are playtesting, playing in tournaments and are actually trying cards?

Look, I'm not saying that Scepter or Bloodmoon are not good cards.  They clearly are, I'm just, as usual, urging caution.  Scepter is a card that needs some very good deck-building to make playable.  Bloodmoon should not be a maindeck card.  If you think Misdirection is dead in some match-ups a maindeck Bloodmoon is even worse, and it's worse maindeck because Bloodmoon is good agaisnt different types of decks, and these decks don't pose a real weakness to a deck sporting 4 Wastes, 1 Strip and 10-14 counterspells.  I have no idea if that makes sense to you.  

In the interests of reconcilliation, however, I will really, really playtest even more with Scepter and Stifle and I'll try to break the card against my most common match-ups.
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Milton
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« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2003, 07:01:32 pm »

This is a reply to Tindemans:

Quote
Quote Try my decklist against Dragon. side out the AK/Intuition, put in 8, and you just whoop ass. I lost no game in the two dragon match-ups in Eindhoven. Sure it's not the Moon alone, but along with the rest you'll win. however when Moon hits and comes through, you're in a very good position.

and against aggro, sure it's not in the deck deck for it.
however if it hits 70 or 75 % of the metagame (I mentioned a serious metagame), and hits it hard, it's okey right? you'll have three sb slots against the rest.

Great point.  But, look at the results from your most recent tournament at Eindhoven:

1)Sjoerd Hovens - RG Beats
2)Koen van der Hulst - Stacker (Thug on TMD)
3)Bram Verhees - Long.dec (Kaervek on TMD)
4)Arthur Tindemans - Scepter-control (Tindemans on TMD)
5)Leon Kusters - Keeper (Cyberknight on TMD)
6)Marco Kiewit - TPS
7)Tim Steurs - TnT
8)Tom Wilmes - Tendrils
9)Hero 't Mannetje - Dragon (Pyromaniac on TMD)
10)Steffen ter Veen - Dragon
11)Rudy Nyhove - PT Funk
12)Maarten Bukkems - Gay Fish (LevelZero on TMD)
13)Michiel de Beer - BR Discard
14)Henk Claassen - Dragon
15)Stefan Gussenhoven - Long
16)Bjorn WAssenbauer - Tendrils
17)Roy van Huyten - IsoSligh
18)Arvid Kastermans - Growatog
19)Ton van der Linden - Keeper
20)Steven Martens - RG Beats
21)Tim van de Oever - White Weenie
22)Merijn Janssen - Mono White Control

And your decklist:

4)Arthur Tindemans
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
3 volcanic Island
6 Island
1 Plains
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Blood Moon
4 Isochron Scepter
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Cunning Wish
2 Fire/Ice
1 Balance
1 Decree of Justice
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
SB:
1 Fire/Ice
1 Raise the Alarm
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Disenchant
1 Abeyance
1 Stifle
1 Hydroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast

Against the top two decks, you clearly should be siding out the Bloodmoons.  But what do you put in?  For R/G beats you can put in Raise the Alarm and the Fire/Ice and maybe a Hydroblast, but you lose the ability to Cunning Wish for those cards.  Wouldn't it be wise to have three slots to switch out for the Bloodmoons agasint an aggro deck like that?  Or three anti-artifact cards against Stacker, or do you use the Crypts to hose the Welders?

Also, in that tournament how important were the Bloodmoons?  How many games were they needed and decisive?  To be fair, in your environment I see Bloodmoon as being very important, but is it truly necessary maindeck?  Wouldn't Wasteland have been better maindeck?

And only 23 mana, with 61 cards?  Holy shit, thats gutsy!
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BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2003, 11:28:50 pm »

To be fair to Arther, he was playing a Jan 1st.dec in a Long environment. That greatly distorts the environment away from both Bloodmoon and Scepter.
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Tindemans
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« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2003, 07:55:04 pm »

first off, my mana never was a problem.

Then I and Koen in second place played Moon, and 1st and 3rd were quite well off against Moons. the rest of the top decks aren't really. maybe that's logical? That really contributes in how we got this high, and Beats and Long did too at the cost of us.

further, the metagame doesn't consist of Stacker and Beats. in fact both were one off's. they were nice metagame choices, and weren't really prepared for by me, and aren't part of the 'general metagame'. last Eindhoven before this one contained 50% keeper, that was about 10 decks. with the few dragons I think the Moon is justified also. also, the deck has suck little problems with playing it, that it's even a good card against Fish since it stops the man lands. I even had good use of it against Beats.

and this tourney, I was very glad with the Moons against the two dragon decks I faced, the TPS, and also the Long.
I actually forgot what I played against more, but 4 out of 6 would also justify the main moons I think.\n\n

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specialk
Guest
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2003, 09:34:24 pm »

I take back what i said about miners being better earlier.  I played aganist Wu's Ur deck and in both games that we played he destroyed my keeper deck.  I think that with more testing Ur could become a bomb in the new enviroment.  But I am still somewhat concerned with the dragon and workshop varients match up.
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BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2003, 11:59:24 pm »

U/r Scepter comes down to this, I am assuming my list is the optimal version:

It defeats Keeper because MD Bloodmoon is the BOMB from hell, and Stifle wrecks their Manabase while acting as counters 9-12 vs their Scepters and Decree. You have a rock solid Manabase ... they don't.

It has a good game vs Dragon with 3 MD Stifle and 2 MD Bloodmoon. Its easily on par with Keeper's game vs Dragon by far. I can't say its better, but I wont admit to it being any worse.

It has a good game vs Prison, Stifle MD is a BOMB vs Slavery.dec and it has access to both Rack and Ruin and Hurkyl's Recall. Stifle > STP in this match up IMO.

It has a worse game vs Mask, no MD STP or Balance is the SUCK.

It has a worse game vs random Aggro like Goblins and Suicide without STP and Balance to rely on in addition to Fire/Ice. It does however gain Bloodmoon vs Fish, and that is some definate good against Man Lands I hear.

That said, U/r Scepter has some issues to deal with that the Chronic doesn't. Its win condition, Morphling, suckz ballz vs DoJ. It can't be fetched with Mystical Tutor or Merchant Scroll, while DoJ can be found with Chronic's Mystical, Demonic Tutor and C.Wished Vamp Tutor. Morphling is slow, while DoJ is immune to a Counter war, can be played at instant speed, can provide a faster clock and can net you a card at the worst. You have to rely on your lock components, Sceptered Fire/Ice and Bloodmoon, to buy you enough time to find Morphling ... or go for the 10 turn Scepter clock and Monkey beats. This hasn't proven to be a weakness in the deck so far, but its still there to worry about.

You have no way to deal with Enchantments other than to put a Disenchant in your SB and hope to have a Scepter in hand ... which is sup optimal. Boomerang is a thought here. You don't have the C.Wish, Abeyance on a Scepter lock ... unless you want to take up a slot in your SB for a card you can't hard cast. You have no instant removal vs the Grave Yard, while the Chronic does.

After the environment wises up to the incursion of Bloodmoon, we will be left to wonder if the Bloodmoons > than Yawg Win, Twist and Balance.

Ofcourse, all of this depends on your metagame. If you have a really random environment, Chronic is the better choice because its more flexible vs Aggro and a faster paced deck to play in time constraints. If you know your environment is going to be full of Tier 1 meta, U/r Scepter can rip it apart after it climbs out of its first match pairings vs Timmy.dec

Edit: I've been having a couple of radical ideas concerning the kill condition in U/r Scepter decks. Does anyone think a Sceptered Fire/Ice is a sufficient kill condition for the deck? The two cards I am the most unhappy with, Morphling and Merchant Scroll could possibly be replaced with 2xFuture Sight. I really want to run Future Sight in my deck, its probably one of the best "I Win Now" cards in the game. I'm pretty sure I want to cut Merchant Scroll for a Future Sight, but only having 1 Future Sight seems really random ... so I want 2. Tho', I think its a dangerous proposition to play this deck without a dedicated Win Condition so cutting Morphling isn't a great idea. What about Mystical Tutor? Its really sub par in Mono-U and U/r compaired to Keeper. Thoughts?\n\n

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PucktheCat
Guest
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2003, 11:07:18 am »

Quote
Quote Edit: I've been having a couple of radical ideas concerning the kill condition in U/r Scepter decks. Does anyone think a Sceptered Fire/Ice is a sufficient kill condition for the deck? The two cards I am the most unhappy with, Morphling and Merchant Scroll could possibly be replaced with 2xFuture Sight. I really want to run Future Sight in my deck, its probably one of the best "I Win Now" cards in the game. I'm pretty sure I want to cut Merchant Scroll for a Future Sight, but only having 1 Future Sight seems really random ... so I want 2. Tho', I think its a dangerous proposition to play this deck without a dedicated Win Condition so cutting Morphling isn't a great idea. What about Mystical Tutor? Its really sub par in Mono-U and U/r compaired to Keeper. Thoughts?

I win lots of game with Fire and Monkeys, but I still would like to have one dedicated win-now card.  I have been playing around with something like the U/r/w version posted earlier in this thread.  It is interesting to me for a couple of reasons.  First off DoJ is really, really good in this deck since it often has a LOT of colorless mana available.  Second, it has access to white for those matchups were Blood Moon is useless (Mask, Goblins etc).  The disadvantage is that it canít really fit in Wasteland.  That sucks, no doubt.

In that version of the deck I run Mystical Tutor in the side because it can set up a good Scepter or get my win condition.

Leo
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BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2003, 12:47:12 pm »

Man, I really wish I had STP back for Aggro matches, but Wastelands are WAY to pivotal and I can live without DoJ ... Morphling actually dodges a lot of very annoying hate like Stifle, Pernicious Deed, Harvester of Sorrow, and Powder Keg.

My main concern is whether or not this version of U/r Scepter can hold up vs fully meta'd hate, which I consider to be B/R Suicide with 4 Null Rod and 4 Rack and Ruin. As much as Future Sight kicks ass, it doesn't win the game vs Aggro AT ALL ... and it loves the REB and MD Naturalizes. I'm thinking that this deck should use 2xMorphling and 1xMerchant Scroll with no Future Sights and a Fact or Fiction in the SB for C.Wish.
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