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Author Topic: Nether Void Primer  (Read 9261 times)
drkavngr
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« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2002, 09:20:50 am »

The worst thing nether void faces is, drum - roll please ... balance!

  I find that this deck does quite well in T1, where I play.  Keeper seems to go about 50/50 with me, I have the early game advantage and have to stay on top of the early game to win.  I hear that lotus, swamp, hymn, hymn does a good job.  Ill often drop a factory, and a void to ride it till I can finish the game or follow up with a shade to seal the deal.  Topdecking a wasteland or 2 dosent hurt either.

  Sligh-matchups don't seem to bother me much Jackel pups and factorys dont mix, maybe it's been just dumb luck on my part though.

  Aginst Suicide it's simply a matter of who disrupts who the worst first.  I find that early factorys do quite a bit of damage and can help block negators well, or even a small shade before they have the mana to pump it over a 4 in defense.

  The bottom line is that I would rather use my mana to do more then just tie up my opponents mana.  This deck wins with speed, ports just provide delay.  By the time you are tapping a swamp to tap a port to tap one of your opponents lands, you could have a shade and a factory on the table and most of their lands wasted or sinked away, well on the path to victory.  Ports are just not required in this deck for T1 play.

 
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Zherbus
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« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2002, 12:52:59 pm »

Quote
Quote Concerning the mirror you could be right. Factories seem to be better most of the times. Incidentally, I finally decided to give up playing NetherVoid in our T1 environment, after having played against 3 mono-B decks in a single tourney. But in my 1.5 version I play 4 Ports and only 2 Factories while facing a lot of aggro.

Mishra's increase your matchup against suicide and Void incredibly.

Quote
Quote Against Keeper - having tried both versions - I noticed Ports as being crucial and Factories, while dealing some damage, were most of the time essentially useless against Keeper.

Probably you play this deck quite differently from the way I do - after the inital disruption I try to play Nether Void ASAP, typically before playing a creature. It is a mono-B control deck with the potential of aggressive turn 1-plays the way I play it and not a controlish Suicide deck with excellent Abyss-defense as it seems to be in your case.

Yeah, I play it more aggressively. As you'll see in part 3, it can play a lot like suicide/knives but where as those decks run only Yawgmoths Will and possibly Necro to seal/uphold the lead, Void had Both Necro and Will. It also has 3 Nether Voids to recover from the initial turns where youve unloaded you hand.

Quote
Quote Regarding the random-decks: I assume you mean random-aggro decks, since random control and random combo decks should be easy for you. Well, as I said, the SB should take care of them (Dystoptia, creature removal, more LD). A 2-1 win is still enough, and often you can steal the first game if your opposing deck is truly random. I do not see the point in making your deck stronger against weak decks while making it weaker against strong decks, but probably you disagree on the second part of this statement. Moreover, I am not even sure that Ports are really worse than Factories against aggro. I can give an example from my last 1.5 tourney: in the final round I had to play against a 1.5-Patriot version and it was crucial that I could deny him 2 mana with Ports, because otherwise he could have played his Serendibs (he would have had a Bolt against my first Factory and there was no way that I outraced him in damage). I sealed the game with a NetherVoid and a Spinning Darkness on his Lion (which had been attacking since the beginning). With Factories, I would have lost the first one in an attempt to block and 1 turn later I would have had to face a Serendib. I know that this is just an example and that you will find other examples, where Factories saved the day and Ports would have been bad.  I just want to make clear that it is not granted that Factories are always better versus aggro and almost certainly not against Control/Combo.

Well, basically Port based Void, especially one with Negators, is like charging into a room full of angry man-hating women with nerf crotch bats...and you have no cup. Nantuko Shade and Mishra's give you that cup.

Quote
Quote Let me finally point out that even in Suicide-mode (i.e. after a rather disruptive start with a first turn creature which resolves) Ports are very helpful, since you deny them 1 main-phase mana without having to fear a Mana Drain, which for most practical purposes is like a timewalk (e.g. Keg is not coming on round 2 but mono-U will have to wait till round 3, which is usually too late).

I usually have been disruptive enough that, with the exception of topdecking, mana drains arent an issue.

Quote
Quote On a sidenote: the worst card (for me) that I have encountered in an opposing random deck was Stormbind - you simply lose with NetherVoid when this resolves, having absolutely no Enchantment defense (apart from Enchant Worlds).

I could most likey race a deck that got this out. Shade wont be killed, their hand size will be most likey crushed beforehand, and post void-distopia. Wink
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Freddie
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« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2002, 02:03:04 pm »

Drkavngr and I were playtesting non SB, and 2 of 7 games he had swamp, lotus, 2x hymn.

Then another 3 of the 7 he had swamp+ jet fill in the plank.

Drkavngr and I were joking that unless you draw the crazy brokeness, you should just throw the deck on the ground and exclaim "What is this shit?!"

We did go about 50/50, but I really think it depended on just the 1st 3-5 turns, then if I survived tha long, I didn't necessarily win, but had about 2times the chance to win then he did.

It was all about riding that initial hand to victory, and that is what makes me shy away from playing aggessive decks, I alway get ass hands (wee not always, but most of the time).

Remember, unless you get lotus double hymn on turn 1, you should just throw the deck on the ground and exclaim "What is this shit?!"

-Freddie
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Big Blue
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« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2002, 02:41:15 pm »

True, you need a rather disruptive start in order to compete with Keeper - but a single Duress can make all the difference (considering the bad hands that Keeper often, er, keeps). Double Hymn sounds good, too . And Necro... In fact, knowing when to mulligan is not that easy with NetherVoid decks (at least for me).

BTW, one of the most broken first turn plays I ever had in a tournament was with T1 NetherVoid (maybe that is why I still have a strong desire to play it - I want to do it again, although I know that this is most unlikely - much like a Bridge player who happend to hold 13 spades once): Swamp, Demonic Consultation, Black Lotus, 2 Dark Ritual, Duress, YawgWill - I started with Land, Duress (taking FoW),  Lotus,  Rituals, Consult on Negator (remove 1 Nether Void and about 20 other cards), YawgWill, replay Lotus, Rituals, Duress (taking a Mox or so - it did not matter much), Consult on NetherVoid (removing all but approx. 10 cards), play Negator, play NetherVoid, take 1 mana burn and smile friendly.

Were it not for my own experience I would almost start to believe that Factories are better - you seem so convinced...

So let me summarize and tell me if you agree:

against ... the better of the two cards (Ports/Mishras) is ...

Keeper Ports
mono-U Ports
combo Ports
Sligh Factories
mono-B Factories
random_aggro Factories

where "better" does not imply that the other card is "bad" (so Mishras are not "bad" against control and Ports are not "bad" against aggro).

Maybe it is really just a metagame-decision or a playing-style issue. But still I feel that Ports deserve a more prominent place in a general primer on mono-B Nether Void decks (sorry for my persistence, I can be very stubborn).
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drkavngr
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« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2002, 02:44:48 pm »

I also accept swamp, dark ritual, duress, hymn as an opening hand, but anything else is crap.  I sould at least draw that much.

Swamp, dark ritual mox jet, duress, spector works.

or Swamp dark ritual mox jet, hymn, shade is a keeper too.

 My best hand is the in-famous black lotus swamp, double hymn.  Which may I add came up once in the tourney before it happened twice during playtesting at Fred's house on the same night.

 I have grown to rely on it I think!  
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Freddie
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« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2002, 02:54:42 pm »

Every time I saw that lotus drop out of your hand, the pit of my stomach would drop...

"Here we go again"

I'd still play it out no matter how bleak it was, I only conceded once, and that was when hy wasted 1 land, and hymned 2 others leaving me with basicly nothing...

I never drew my misdirection, but I was a blancing foo that night!

-Freddie
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Big Blue
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« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2002, 03:20:02 pm »

So... If you do NOT draw any acceleration (Ritual, Mox, Lotus) and you do not have a Duress do you mulligan? What would you do with, say,

2 Swamp, Strip, Waste, Sinkhole, Hymn, Negator

if a) you go first or b) he goes first?
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cooberp
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« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2002, 03:38:07 pm »

I presume people have tested Dust Bowl in Void and found it sucks.  Can anyone explain to me why?
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drkavngr
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« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2002, 04:10:43 pm »

big blue

If I go first I will lay a swamp and say go.

If he plays first and its non basic, draw a card and ill waste it.
If it is basic then Ill saw ok draw a card (hopefully duress) and then (if its not) drop swamp #2 and sink his land, and say go.

He will draw and lay a land and say go.

  At this point I could lay down the strip and go for a negator if I am confident that he can't counter.  If I think he will then Ill strip his land and then hymn (hopefully ive got another land by now or I will draw one on the next turn).

  If the hymn hits, Ill label him my bitch and drop a land and the negator next turn (esp. if he just draws and lays a land) Mind you he is still only at one land at this point in time.  

 As he scrambles for an answer, ill scramble for void.

cooberp,

  The point is to cripple and lock your opponent.  4 wastelands and one strip with 4 sinkholes is enough.  You want to build your own manabase so that you can work with a void out and he can't, not undermine yourself.  If your feeling really sadistic and you have luck on your side, yawg will for a used waste or strip and a sink hole, and his nightmare starts all over again.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2002, 04:16:47 pm »

Quote
Quote against ... the better of the two cards (Ports/Mishras) is ...

Keeper Ports
mono-U Ports
combo Ports
Sligh Factories
mono-B Factories
random_aggro Factories

Big Blue, if you decide to play it, keep something in mind. THIS deck doesn't play like Null and Void. Its like picking up an OSE deck and trying to pretend its Keeper.

I would say this is mostly wrong. THOUGH, if you cant break your play style, stick with ports and negators.

Keeper - You play differently, remember. - Factories.
Mono-Blue - Factories.
Combo - Ports
Sligh - Factories
Mono-B - Factories
Random-aggro - Factories

Also, you always go first. You can lay a swamp in case you draw a ritual next turn, and still be able to strip. Even if you don't it keeps you building up mana.

@DrkAvngr: I would, in practice, keep a low acceleration hand to better your playing. Theres nothing wrong with a turn 1 duress/strip-go. A solid turn 2 sink/hymn/keg-go. Etc Wink

@CooberP: This deck NEEDS to keep is mana plentiful. If I was trying to achieve consistant land kill in an environment basically made of Keeper, it would be ok.

1) Its too slow.
2) It only kills non-basics, its bad enough to have dead wastelands.
3) Its inferior to both Mishra AND port. With port, I can at least tag a basic land every turn. This is largely in part that its slower than hell.
4) I would consider it for a few sideboard slots, but wasteland is enough and in such a mana hungry deck such as Void - You cant be matching land for land.

Quote
Quote The point is to cripple and lock your opponent.  4 wastelands and one strip with 4 sinkholes is enough.  You want to build your own manabase so that you can work with a void out and he can't, not undermine yourself.

Just to be sure, this deck is more aggressive and aims to disrupt rather than to lock. So 'The point is to cripple and 'disrupt' your opponent.' would be proper. Wink\n\n

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