Optimizing Cunning Wish in Keeper

[Dozer]

Quote Um, Power Artifact is not played in Type One.  At least not in any optimal deck.

Check "Power Artifact in Keeper"! And participate... http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;t=1379

Dozer

[Big Blue]

jp: even if you "just" play 3 REB, 1 StoP, 1 Disenchant and 1 Mis-D Cunning Wish is already ok and extremely flexible. Against Control/Combo you have REB/Mis-D/Disenchant (probably I listed them in order of importance), against any deck with targetable creatures you have StoP, against Parfait/Enchantress you have Disenchant etc.

IMO you don't need any funny SB additions to justify 1-2 Wishes. Playing 3-4 is something different, of course (and maybe bad).

[BigChuck]

While you wouldn't necessarily need to alter you board to include wishes, why wouldn't you? If your going to have them there, then you should have the most things possible that might be useful and fit, while still leaving the main stuff you want there. It just doesn't make sense to me why you'd play wish just for a slight advantage, when it could be a HUGE advantage.

[Big Blue]

The problem is that the amount of instants you can put into your SB is finite - even worse, it is restricted to 15. On top of that, as JP pointed out, you want some non-instants in your SB as well - some mixture of COP: Red, Shaman, Miner, Keg, Compost, Aura Fracture, whatever...

If you really maximize your SB with respect to Cunning Wish you are bound to decrease its efficiency in other respects, which was essentially the point JP tried to make (at least as far as I understood his criticism). So this is the answer to your "Why wouldn't you?": Because it makes your SB weaker.

Let me refine my last statement: If you have two different cards competing for the same SB slot and both of them are "essentially equivalent" (e.g. Seal of Cleansing and Disenchant) it is ok if you favour the instant version to produce better synergy with Cunning Wish (i.e. in the previous example Disenchant). However, if one of the two cards is clearly inferior (I admit that this is not necessarily easy to decide and very metagame-dependent; some cards which are "essentially equivalent" in one metagame might be ranked clearly in a different one) then you should not prefer the instant just for the little bit more synergy with Cunning Wish.

You can use it, but you can't abuse it in Keeper.

However, as I pointed out, even if you don't change a single card of your favourite SB, 1-2 Cunning Wishes are still a good MD choice.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Zherbus @ July 20 2002,07:54)

Quote One thing tangential to this question is "How many Cunning Wish should you run?"  I notice a lot of the popular T2 control decks are running 2-3; I am tempted to go to 2 and see how it goes.  

Type 2 also has no demonic tutor, vamp tutor, etc. I really think any more than one would be cutting something into something better.

One thing is Zherbus while running 1 cunning wish if you  pitch one to an early force- much help that it-also with 5+ cards devoted to it in sb 2 wishes are really nessecary- Also if you need to cut something library can go because its not great in the aggro matchup anyway

[cooberp]

I don't know whether you're talking about Sylvan or Alexandria, but any deck without both can't be called Keeper.

That's actually not true--it would just be powerless Keeper or greenless Keeper--but it sounded good.

[Zherbus]

Quote (westredale @ Sep. 06 2002,20:34)One thing is Zherbus while running 1 cunning wish if you  pitch one to an early force- much help that it-also with 5+ cards devoted to it in sb 2 wishes are really nessecary- Also if you need to cut something library can go because its not great in the aggro matchup anyway

I question whether you've ever really played Keeper before. You cant cut LoA from keeper, not even against aggro. As a matter of fact you draw LOTS more cards against aggressive decks since you dont fear misdirection or other counterspells. You are totally free to draw like mad. If it was so terrible against aggro, why isnt it a sideboard card?

The idea isnt to base your deck around the wishes, because once you do that you build a weaker keeper. One where countering the 'tutors' over the business spells are needed. Why? Because without wishing for them, one will never be able to topdeck the needed card through insane card drawing.

Sylvan is still a digger, if thats what you were referring to. Its still good for drawing against Suicide, and lets you pick lands, creature kill, or whatever else you might need against the rest of the field.

Might I remind you that Cunning Wish costs 3, and while it may not look like much on paper, in practice its really not that easy to use it all the time.

So, 1 is a good number. Otherwise you really need to start examining your maindeck. I might be willing to support basing your maindeck around the wishes to basically 'pre-sideboard', but we are talking about Cunning Wish here and the wish you want to do this with costs 3WW.

(Also to non-adepts: There is a poll right now, where the adepts are voting to decide whether to let non-adepts post in this forum. Its 50/50 split right now. So when writing in this forum, I would try and use some degree of readability. If you want to respond to this subject, do it in "Community".)

[CrazyCarl]

I'd like to run 2 Cunning Wish in my keeper, I just don't have the extra slot to devote to it.  I'm also thinking of *gasp* giving Power Artifact a try when I can pick one up(kl0wn won the tournament we had yesterday with it, but to be fair, I wasn't very good competition because I was playing Academy =\)

Carl

[Big Blue]

CrazyCarl: Great, another one trying bring POWER into his Keeper deck...   Just be careful, IMO it makes the deck more difficult to play because of more (wrong) options in many situations (especially when you tutor for something)

On the CW issue: 2 Cunning Wishes seem to be easy to fit (although I don't know your decklist, but let me assume a "standard" deck): the first one can come in for the 10th counter (either Counterspell or second Mis-D), because you change it for 2 virtual REBs; the second could come in for a StoP or an Edict; getting rid of Edict is maybe less a problem than getting rid of StoP (after all, Edict is there mainly for Morphling, while StoP should provide a fast solution) - obviously, you would not cut any of the search spells or any broken card for it, so these seem to be the two natural pseudo-free slots

However, I believe it is not a good idea to change too many things at once - adding Power Artifact and Grimstone Monolith is already an essential change and you should get used to your "new" deck, before adding also the Wishes (or vice versa); additionally it seems difficult to fit 2 Wishes AND Power Artifact into The Deck - at least I would not know what to take out.

P.S.: Just to satisfy my curiosity: This deck of kl0wn: was it "just" Keeper+combo or was it more Combo-Keeper (like the German deck in the other thread with the Oath trick)? I.e. could you (or kl0wn) please post a deck list (maybe not here, but in the Power Artifact thread).

[kl0wn]

Consider it done, Big Blue. My decklist is under the "Power Artifact in Keeper" thread.

[CrazyCarl]

Alright, so I played in Centerfields Thursday Type 1 losing in the finals of the losers bracket to Jason(leviat on this board) playing Miracle Gro.  

My nearly-final-thoughts on Cunning Wish:
It deserves a spot in the deck.  Too often, it's able to save your bacon, be it from a rampaging Tubbie, or a Jackal Pup, or just to fetch a Red Blast to prepare for a counter war.  It's just that good.

I think that's all I can add to the discussion, everything else has really been covered until someone finds a new way to use/abuse it.

Carl\n\n

[mezzir]

i'm suprised that no one's brought up that it can get back RFG cards (unless i'm mistaken   )
i've seen ppl go recall, regrowth, recall, will, recall, wish, recall (not all in the same turn)
but it can get back that balance that you used with your will, and then once you use it normally you can still regrowth it
i like it to be able to fetch SB tech, but i dont think devoting that much of your SB to it is a good idea
rather, i'd just tweak it to add something if i really felt i'd be needing to win game 1

[Zherbus]

Quote (mezzir @ Sep. 18 2002,17:14)i'm suprised that no one's brought up that it can get back RFG cards (unless i'm mistaken   )
i've seen ppl go recall, regrowth, recall, will, recall, wish, recall (not all in the same turn)
but it can get back that balance that you used with your will, and then once you use it normally you can still regrowth it
i like it to be able to fetch SB tech, but i dont think devoting that much of your SB to it is a good idea
rather, i'd just tweak it to add something if i really felt i'd be needing to win game 1

Really the only thing worth wishing for, thats been removed, is Ancestral. You typically dont pitch it to FoW if you can help it, and if youve RFG with Will, you probably have already won.

You cannot get that balance back, btw. Its not an instant.

Cunning wish allows you to run more spot removal, another counterspell, or a hoser without having a dead card.

For example: you dont want Swords #2 against control or combo, you dont want another misdirection against TnT, etc.

You also let yourself keep it in against a control mirror, and wish for a swords if they poop out a miner, where as you would normally side out all your creature removal.

Really, the trick is to realize what you need in your SB and use a few slots (some are already instants: Swords, REB, Edict, Response) to maximize Cunning wish's usefulness.

[mezzir]

aah, good call zherbus
shows you how much i play  

[CrazyCarl]

I know this thread has been inactive for a while, but a new Onslaught card caught my attention:

Starstorm
RRX
Instant
Starstorm deals X damage to each creataure.

My first thought was: "OMG, Wishable Wrath!"

Then I settled down and noticed the double red cost to cast it.  I haven't tried it out yet, but might get the chance to tonight.  I'm just making you Wish fans out there aware of this new goody that may make an appearance in some sideboards.

Carl\n\n

[Zherbus]

While executing this is a badass idea indeed, I worry that the double red might be hard to come by in a keeper that we already strive for double white postboard for Moat.

Still, its always worth testing the slot, I just dont expect much out of it.

[CrazyCarl]

That's what i'm worried about too.  I think it will work fine seeing as the deck is able to get WW as consistantly as RR(same number of sources etc).

My thoughts today were to cut Moat all together and add the Starstorm instead.  I'm not a fan of the idea, but I can't think of anything else i'd be willing to cut.

I'm also considering taking out the Diabolic Edict(I've switched to Chainer's MD).  Ill try it out when I can play some good, solid control mirrors and report back.

Carl

[drg`]

Carl, The current keeper sb I'm going with is this:

3 REB
1 Swords
1 Furnace
2 Powder Keg
2 COP: Red
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Scrying Glass
1 Pyroclasm
1 Aura Fracture
1 Moat
1 Misdirection
1 Moat

The Sandstorm could replace the Pyroclasm, but I’m not sure if it’s superior.  Because it takes 4 mana to remove a weenie horde, plus 3 to wish for it.  I don't think you have enough time to cast it to be honest.  Also you need to get RR, which is as hard as WW for moat.  I find pyroclasm acceptable verses suicide and zoo, which is really what this card is for.  I don't see sandstorm as a solid early game sweeper, since it needs drains / heavy mox / lotus / ring draws to be successful, as clasm doesn't.  Also Sandstorm cost the same as moat, but does not shut down negators / jugs / su-chi's / masticores / whatever as fast as moat does.  Yes its wish able, but you have enough tutors to get moat / abyss / sowrd(s) / etc to give you time to stabilize.

Just my 2 cents,
Mike

[Dante]

Drg -
  
  Not sure which card you're referring to that costs RR - Pyroclasm costs 1R.  

Also, I think you've confused Sandstorm with some other card.  Sandstorm costs G and reads "Deals 1 damage to all attacking creatures" (or something like that).  It only costs 1 mana, not 4 (you have 4 plus the 3 from the wish).

Dante

[j_orlove]

Quote I know this thread has been inactive anymore, but a new Onslaught card caught my attention:

Starstorm
RRX
Instant
Starstorm deals X damage to each creataure.

My first thought was: "OMG, Wishable Wrath!"

Then I settled down and noticed the double red cost to cast it.  I haven't tried it out yet, but might get the chance to tonight.  I'm just making you Wish fans out there aware of this new goody that may make an appearance in some sideboards.

Carl

Quote Drg -
 
 Not sure which card you're referring to that costs RR - Pyroclasm costs 1R.  

Also, I think you've confused Sandstorm with some other card.  Sandstorm costs G and reads "Deals 1 damage to all attacking creatures" (or something like that).  It only costs 1 mana, not 4 (you have 4 plus the 3 from the wish).

Dante

Next time you might want to consider looking up a few posts.