Optimizing Cunning Wish in Keeper

[CrazyCarl]

I've been using Cunning Wish in my Keeper ever since Judgment came out.  I've never regretted cutting the Swords to Plowshares for it I used to have there.  Anyways, some of the cards I run for the wish(and some i want to run)

1 Allay(buyback destory enchantment)
1 Shattering Pulse(buyback destroy artifact)
1 Misdirection
1 Diabolic Edict
Then i also run
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Circle of Protection: Black
2 Dwarven Miner

I REALLY want to include a Skeletal Scrying in the sideboard for the control mirror(a late game wish for Scrying could be gamebreaking). The question is, what to cut?

I want to cut a Plow, however, I am unsure of whether this would be safe vs Suicide games 2 and 3(also stacker, funker and aggro like that).  

Then again, maybe the Scrying would just be overkill?

I just want to get some opinions from people(players of Cunning Wish and non players of Cunning Wish)to aid my testing.

Carl\n\n

[Zherbus]

Can you include your maindeck listing?

I personally dont like skeletal scrying for alternate drawing, I would rather just use a teferis response actually.

I have been thinking of trying Cunning wish in my keeper. I haven't decided what to cut, but my sb would look like this:

2 Dwarven Miner
1 Moat
1 COP:Red
1 COP:Black
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental blast
1 Teferis Response
1 Swords to Plowshares (2 if i cut swords maindeck)
1 Diabolic Edict (change maindeck edict to chainers)
1 Aura Blast/Allay/Tranquil Domain
1 Shattering Pulse/Crosis's Charm

Cards I'd really like to keep, but haven't worked in:

Timetwister
Compost
Aura Fracture

Cards I am considering for cut in the maindeck:

Dismantling Blow
Swords to Plowshares
Vampiric Tutor

     \n\n

[CrazyCarl]

Zherbus: Sure

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Counterspell
2 Morphling
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 The Abyss
1 Mind Twist
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow

1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library

1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Fire/Ice

1 Zuran Orb
1 Jayamdae Tome/Scrying Glass(still not sure)

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
4 City of Brass

1) I really like Dismantling Blow, it's a card drawer, and I can't see it being cut for something else.

2) I sorta want to fit in Braingeyser, but I really don't even like the card that much(It's also another thread altogether).

As for the cards you(Zherbus) want to keep: I'm not sure they are necessary.  I think Allay is far superior to Aura Fracture.  With the Fracture, they can actually destroy it, with no down side.  However, with the Allay, they need to waste that effect on the card you're allaying, just to have you Will or Regrowth it back later on.

I'm questioning Shattering Pulse, mainly because of the Mighty Mighty Mox Monkey, but last week, I used it to kill a Tome, 2(maybe 3) Moxes, a Sol Ring, and a Zuran Orb.  So I think it may be staying.

I want to cut a Red Blast for Response/Scrying, but I HATE to weaken the deck in the mirror and vs Mono Blue(which is REALLY hard even with 4 Blasts).

As for 1 Circle: Red- I think 2 should be played, 1 just isn't enough to settle my mind.

I question my Edict in the board, but it has the ability to just save my ass I think.  Like, I could cut it for a Scrying or a Response, but if I draw Wish at 10 or so life(wit them with a morph in play), Scrying is far superior to the Response, and I think paying 5 for response is ust too much.  I loved Scrying in OSE, and I think it'll be great to be able to Wish for it.

As for changing the MD Edict to Chainers: Don't.  While it thwarts Morphlings, there are ways around it, and Chainer's can't kill Mishra's Factory(which can be quite a bitch to deal with as i'm sure you know).

This leads me to think that maybe cutting a Red Elemental Blast for the Scrying might be a good plan.  Scrying is pretty good against Mono Blue and vs the Mirror(they can't Red OR blue blast it OR misdirect it if they play with Wish as well).  But, i'm rue to cut the 4th Blast.

I think i'll leave you all with my thoughts for now and check back later.  This is giving me a headache  

God I love that smiley.

[Fishhead]

One thing tangential to this question is "How many Cunning Wish should you run?"  I notice a lot of the popular T2 control decks are running 2-3; I am tempted to go to 2 and see how it goes.  

As for the original question, I think D-Blow is very nice when you need it, but it is also situational and so might be best in the side.  (Since I am thinking of running 2 Wishes, I can afford to be a bit more aggressive in what to take out.)  One of the creature removal would probably go next; probably the Edict.  (On the theory that I dont need the Edict early like the StP; I need it to kill Morphling mostly.)  

Mike Longs finesse of putting the Stroke in the side and using Geyser main is interesting, and kind of in line with your interest in Scrying (card drawing solutions).  The problem I have with this is that it messes up your in-deck Tutors.  Depends on how many times you Tutor for Stroke I suppose; he equalizes the question by bringing back the lately unpopular Geyser.

> I think Allay is far superior to Aura Fracture.  With the
> Fracture, they can actually destroy it, with no down side.

The point of Aura Fracture is to be able to destroy bunches of enchantments while only having to win one counter-war.  I wouldnt want to try to Allay away BtB for instance.  I definitely want access to Aura Fracture and have even run it maindeck instead of D-Blow in environments where I expect lots of multiland hate.

[DigDug]

I think if I were to cut a card from the sideboard, I would cut a Swords.  The Edicts are still useful against aggressive decks, and you have a CoP: Black against Suicide.  For Shattering Pulse, how useful do you find it?  Is using it against Cursed Scrolls and Jayemdae Tomes better than using the Shaman and a Disenchant?  For reference, here is my sideboard for my Cunning Wish:
2 Counterspell
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Misdirection
1 Scrying Glass
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Compost
1 Engineered Plague
2 Oath of Druids
1 Seal of Cleansing

[Zherbus]

Quote One thing tangential to this question is "How many Cunning Wish should you run?"  I notice a lot of the popular T2 control decks are running 2-3; I am tempted to go to 2 and see how it goes.  

Type 2 also has no demonic tutor, vamp tutor, etc. I really think any more than one would be cutting something into something better.

[carl]

I'll be trying 1 Cunning Wish tomorrow:

The Great Gatsby:
1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
1 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Misdirection
2 Morphling
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Time Walk
1 Fire/Ice
1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Mind Twist
1 The Abyss
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Zuran Orb
4 City of Brass
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 CoP: Red
1 Moat
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ebony Charm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Teferi's Response
2 Powder Keg
1 Scrying Glass

Some explanations...
Metagame expected is Tools 'n Tubbies a Workshop deck with Survival of the Fittest, Keeper and blue-based control (mono-U, U/r and U/b), some mono-black and some Sligh.

Ebony Charm for Squee, Anger and Wonder (which might be sideboarded to fight my sideboarded Moat) in Tools 'n Tubbies.

I'll try to note how Cunning Wish is doing for me and write a report.

[CrazyCarl]

Fishhead: You brought up a few things I was also considering today.

Running the second Cunning Wish: My theory on this, is that if you do need another Wish, it can be amazing, however, the way -I- play my Wish is to get something that will bring me back into the game OR to just flat out win right then and there.

As for Stroke in the board and Geyser in the main, I think it's a bad plan.  You need to take Merchant Scroll into account when you do something like that.  Personally, I dont' want to spent 5 mana to tutor for Stroke.  I also don't like the Sorcery aspect of Braingeyser(coupled with the fact I can't find a nice BB one   ).

Zherbus: I agree, the fact that T1 has tutors and insane deck manipulation led me to come to the conclusion the second Wish is unnecessary and would remove cards that don't deserve to be cut(Like Edict or Dismantling Blow).

Speaking of Dismantling Blow:  It really is never a dead card.  Almost always you or your opponent will have a Mox or something you can use to draw 2 cards.  Also, keeping a MD Disenchant effect is VERY important.  The weakness of Cunning Wish(and the others) is that they do act as a Super Tutor, BUT countering them leaves you without the ability to just draw into the card(You can later Regrowth or Yawgmoth's Will, which I think offsets this downside).  But playing 2 makes you more vulnerable to disruption.  You can't rely that much on one card.  I see Wish as a card that supplements Keeper, strengthening it's weaker matchups with cards from the sideboard game 1.

Also, on Allay, Games 2 and 3 vs Mono Blue are MUCH differant than game 1.  Having Red Blasts instead of creature removal swings the matchup ALOT.  With all the threats Keeper runs, Mono Blue is just out classed imo.  I need to do more testing however to see if I'm right ;P.

carl: Ebony Charm is an interesting piece of tech.  However, I think Cremate might be superior for that use.

Cremate
B - Instant
Remove target card in a Graveyard from the game
Draw a Card

With the recursion Keeper offers, cards in the grave shouldn't be a problem, so running might be unneeded.

DigDug: First off, Shattering Pulse really is that good.  It's like having a Cheaper, non-Abyssable(huge game 1 sometimes) Mox Monkey.  It also fogs Masticore, kills Su Chi, Big Juggs, Karn, Scrolls, Tomes, Scrying Glasses, Powder Kegs(You can Regrowth or Will it back later) and alot more.  It's just really, really good.

As for cutting the Plow: I Think you're right.  I'm going to give it a try, and do some testing vs Suicide and then post about it later.

Carl\n\n

[carl]

Quote (CrazyCarl @ July 20 2002,22:43)carl: Ebony Charm is an interesting piece of tech.  However, I think Cremate might be superior for that use.

Cremate
B - Instant
Remove target card in a Graveyard from the game
Draw a Card

With the recursion Keeper offers, cards in the grave shouldn't be a problem, so running might be unneeded.

Actually, the problem is that Cremate removes only 1 card. I wanted to be able to remove multiple Squee (engine for Bazaar of Baghdad).
Moreover, Ebony Charm can be used for other good effect. Check out my report in the regular Type I forum.

[CrazyCarl]

Ah I saw.  I guess you're right.  Very good use of it   .  It seemed to serve you well.  It seems like it could be very useful if the metagame calls for it.

I still haven't gotten a chance to play any recently, so unfortuantely, no tourney report this week, and I won't have any results on the Scrying for at least another week

Carl

[Max, the Mana Drainer]

Question: is Cunning Wish so effective?

1)The help it provides ends after game 1: in game 2 and 3 you will use the sideboard cards you need and this is always going to get out.

2)To use it you need to fill your sideboard with instants.

I think that adapting the sideboard in order to use it may weaken considerably the deck.

Just a thought.

Max, the Mana Drainer

[CrazyCarl]

Max: I took that into consideration when adding the cards to make Wish effective.  SO FAR I haven't had any real problems.

It's still pretty effective post-board. I usually leave one or two cards in the board(if there isnt' enough to side out) which keeps the Wish useful.  I don't think i've ever sided it out, but if I doubt I would ever find a situation where it wouldn't be at all useful.

Carl

[The_Ghetto_Mike@yahoo.com]

why you play wish, concentrate is unrestriced ancestral.

sidebord should play planar portal, normal keeper guys cannot deal with you getting any card you want to all turns. Mike

[CrazyCarl]

TGM: Concentrate is a fine card, I just don't think it fits into keeper(braingeyser does it's job better, and I dont run braingeyser).

As for Planar Portal, that seems like more of a "fun card".  It costs 12 total mana just to get you to your first card.  Nowadays, it's hard to find nice, juicy mana drain targets, so it doesn't come out as easily as one might think.

Carl

[Milton]

I have a couple of thoughts on Cunning Wish.

First, if you play Cunning Wish, why not run 3?  Pull the maindeck Dismantling Blow, maindeck Fact or Fiction and a maindeck creature removal card.  Why not?  You improve your versatility immensely, expecially if you can cast Cunning Wish to grab a Red Blast or Terifi's Response or Swords or Disenchant.  The problem with this is that Cunning Wish is expensive to cast.  If your opponent is Wastelanding and Sinkholing you, how are you going to get the five mana to cast Cunning Wish for Terifi's Response in response to the Sinkhole?  

Keeper is versitaile enough with it's tutors.  Demonic costs two mana.  Vampiric and Mystical cost one.  Mystical for Diabolic Edict is much more efficient than Cunning Wish for Diabolic Edict out of the sideboard.  The tutors work much better for all of those times when you really, really need a Diabolic Edict or Swords to Plowshares, which is usually early in the game before Keeper has established control.

In fact, if you are using Cunning Wish in your Keeper, you are really using it in place of a Tutor, and it becomes an expensive Tutor to say the least.

So, I'm still not sold on Cunning Wish.  It's cute, but I have to see some more results before I put one or three in my deck.

[CrazyCarl]

It's an expensive tutor, true, BUT it isn't card disadvantage like Mystical or Vampiric Tutor.

Carl

[drkavngr]

I agree with Carl and Max, there is nothing that special with cunning wish.  

  I predict that after people get a good taste of useing it, they will decide that it is not a T-1 playable card.  

  Use the card slot for something more useful in game one.  Your not going to hose anything down with fetching that one instant from your side board.

[Fishhead]

Quote Keeper is versitaile enough with it's tutors.  

Playing the Wishes is an interesting thing.  You cant compare them to the regular Tutors because the types of cards you want to fetch with each is different.  (I learned this the hard way while experiementing with playing 3xBurning Wish with Mind Twist, Balance and Y-Will in the side.  Dont try this at home, kids.)  If the card is strong enough to be in the maindeck always, it needs to be in the maindeck always - fiddling with Wishes just messes up the rest of your Tutors.  

But Wishes are very good at a couple things.  They provide a safety net; you have access to cards like Carls mighty Ebony Charm which you normally wouldnt.  I think of things like Teferis Response as being similar; it doesnt make the cut in your maindeck, but I can give up one sideboard slot for it to Wish for in extremis. Both of these examples increase your versatility into areas you normally dont have the deck-space to cover.

Wishes also give you access to a better supply of things you are trying to economize on in the maindeck; things like Disenchant effects and StPs.  Keeper is versatile, yes, but it pays a price in areas like this.

Quote 1)The help it provides ends after game 1: in game 2 and 3 you will use the sideboard cards you need and this is always going to get out.

Would that be a bad thing; to side out Cunning Wish for games 2/3?  No, its perfectly fine.

But it is a very valid point; the value of the Wish changes after game one.  (Which kind of goes back to my fiasco with Burning Wish; dont Wish for things that should go in the maindeck!)

[specialk]

I really don't think cunning wish fits in keeper because all keeper does is build up a lock down with permanents such as Phyrexian Furnace, The Abyss, Circles, Miner, Gorilla Shaman,  Moat, Sylvan Library, Scrying glass, Compost and piles more of jank, so why would you wanna go looking for a one shot of a spell when you take advantage by doing the same thing over and over again.

If any deck could use it it would be mono-U since they use kegs and disks they don't want to give up card advantage.

[CrazyCarl]

Quote (specialk @ July 22 2002,20:41)I really don't think cunning wish fits in keeper because all keeper does is build up a lock down with permanents such as Phyrexian Furnace, The Abyss, Circles, Miner, Gorilla Shaman,  Moat, Sylvan Library, Scrying glass, Compost and piles more of jank, so why would you wanna go looking for a one shot of a spell when you take advantage by doing the same thing over and over again.

If any deck could use it it would be mono-U since they use kegs and disks they don't want to give up card advantage.

The thing is, Allay and Shattering Pulse are buyback spells.  They are also immune to alot of common anti-keeper measures due to residing in the hand and not on the table.

Carl

[Rakso]

Are you talking about those two in a Keeper mirror?

[Freddie]

I hope not, I'd think that the wishes are a way to basicly pre sideboard against "X" fill in the blank... game 1, but that on game 2, you'd actually have those cards from the SB in the maindeck, and side the wishes out, along with the lesseer tutors, and anti aggro stuff.

-Freddie

[Gothmog]

I haven't played Keeper lately with Cunning Wish, but I have played some other decks with it and my impressions:

1) Its really pretty strong.  Yes it costs 3, but its great once you have an idea what you're playing against and many times EOT you have 3 mana.

2) I think saying its better to Mystical for an StP (as an example) than to Wish for it isn't neccessarily a given.  Wishing puts the StP in your hand, at that moment.  Also, there is the card advantage aspect of it.  The tutors, of course, cost you a card versus saving you 2 colorless on the cc.

3) I look at using the Wish as spending 4 slots in my sideboard for a lot of flexibility, which is very similar to Carl's.  The spells I figure are in because of Wish are: Allay, Shattering Pulse, StP & Misdirection.  Of course, I use multiple Red Blasts and usually 1 Blue blast also that can be wished for.

4) 1 Wish isn't worth bothering for, 3 seems like I end up with a lot of them, 2's the right number for me.

[cooberp]

I would board:
1 D-Blow
1 Edict
X Plow
1 MisD
3 REB
1 Teferi's Response
1 BEB

[CrazyCarl]

cooberp: I don't agree with all of that sideboard.

I'd like to fit a BEB, there's just no room in my 'board.  I don't know if I could bring myself to go below 4 REB, but hey, i'll give it a shot.

As for moving D-Blow to the sideboard, I think that's wrong.  I'm (almost) never sad to draw Dismantling Blow.  Not only is it very versatile, removing a wide variety of problem cards, it's also a card drawer(albeit a weak one) and you can always use it on a Mox or something in a pinch.  Leaving it in the sideboard leaves you open to the Wish's biggest weakness: Being countered and not being able to TD the card you need.  Granted, you CAN Regrowth/Will back the Wish, but i'd rather do other things with those cards most of the time.

And as for Teferi's Response: It's a great, powerful card and can completely swing the game, but I don't think there's enough I really -need- to protect(Library... that's about it).  And they can always waste that at another time.  Also, if you have the Library out, you'll then need to keep 5 mana open in addition to counter mana if you want to protect it with the Wish.  I just don't think it's worth it and i'd rather run Skeletal Scrying or something that can be useful all the time.  However, I don't think I've yet encountered a situation where I would WANT to wish for Skeletal Scrying or Stroke or whatever, so without a 2nd Wish, I don't think i'll be running it.

AND as for running a 2nd Wish, I don't want my deck too heavily reliant on drawing a Wish to deal with things.  As my deck is now, I can Wish for the perfect answer to any threat, OR if need be, I can Tutor for a solution as well.

Freddie: So far, I don't think i've sided the Wish out yet.  There are times where the cards you side out CAN be useful(like a tutor or something in the control mirror) and you can wish for them at your conveniance.  Post board vs alot of decks, the Wish remains a versatile tool that can be more useful more often than the card you didn't side in for it(Plow allay etc).  I usually leave those cards in the board specifically to wish for(because decks those are good against don't run countermagic) which keeps the Wish useful.

Carl

[Freddie]

Carl, with your current decklist and SB, what do you side in and out vs a keeper, and also against mono blue?

I find it hard to find room for all the stuff in the SB (in my wishless keeper) much less keeping in a wish, if I had one.

I SB vs keeper:
+4 REB
+1 Miner
+1 Edict
+1 Misdirection

-1 Plow (leaving in 1 vs shaman and miners)
-1 Abyss
-1 Zorb
-1 Geyser
-1 Vamp
-1 Mystical
-1 D.Blow, or Time Walk, depending

Against Mono Blue:
+4 REB
+1 Edict
+1 Misdirection
+1 Aua Fracture
+1 Tranquil Domain

-2 Plow
-1 Abyss
-1 Zorb
-1 Geyser
-1 Vamp
-1 Mystical
-1 Time Walk/ Gorilla Shaman

Thanks

-Freddie

[CrazyCarl]

Ok, for referance:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Counterspell
2 Morphling
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 The Abyss
1 Mind Twist
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow

1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library

1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Fire/Ice

1 Zuran Orb
1 Jayamdae Tome

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
4 City of Brass
--Sideboard--
1 Allay
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Misdirection
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Circle of Protection: Black
2 Dwarven Miner

VS Keeper I side:

+4 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Dwarven Miner

-1 Zuran Orb
-1 Fire/Ice
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 The Abyss
-1 Dismantling Blow

I haven't played in a few weeks(I use the same plan every time almost)but I think that's how I do it.

VS Mono Blue
+4 Red Elemental Blast

-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Zuran Orb
-1 The Abyss

I like having my Wish useful post board.  This may not be the right way to do things, I'm just saying that's how I've done it in the 4 tournaments i've played in with the Wish(I've played Mono-U only 2 times, and that was at Origins).

The wish(Post board) vs Mono-U can still fetch a Misdirection or Diabolic Edict to help me win a counter war, or deal wiith a Morphling/Ophidian.  It also allows me access to Shattering Pulse(to kill off a moxen heavy draw), or to Allay/D-Blow as a last ditch way to deal with B2B.

I use my Keeper sideboarding ALOT because I play alot of mirrors.  I've lost to one Keeper deck since i've started playing it.  It may be attributed to luck, or my opponent's being less skillful than I give them credit, but it seems to be working thus far.  Wish basically gives me the same options as against Mono-U in the Keeper matchup.  I think it's better to have an expensive Edict or Mis-D when I need it, rather than just one or the other.

Carl

EDIT: Fixed the decklist

[jpmeyer]

On the subject of Cunning Wish, the only matchup that I can think of where I'd leave Cunning Wish in games 2/3 is against combo.  Can anyone think of any others?

[CrazyCarl]

I don't think i've ever sided it out.  It can handle so much and doesn't leave you open to getting raped by transformational sideboards by giving you answers to unexpected cards(Like Negators in combo).

Carl

[Anonymous]

Other random options to wish for, that I haven't seen mentioned:
Rack and Ruin
Peace and Quiet
Waylay (negators, pups, reavers, cadets, etc., will all be in for a shock)
Firestorm
Sickening Dreams (one or the other, but I feel Dreams is the better one, as it deals X to every creature, not just X creatures, and you don't need to have X targets in order to deal X. Grah, too many Xs)