Nether Void Primer

[Zherbus]

Sideboard Choices

Dystopia - I run three, which is enough for everything I face, online and in real tournaments. It kills such menaces as Compost, Sylvan, White weenies, stompy things, Zoo things, enchantress weirdness, COP’s, and Moat if it ever hits play. Most people seem to like 3 or 4, I simply leave it to duress keep me safe then use the pair to clean up the sloppy seconds.

Masticore - Against non-null rod decks, this can simply win a match up on its own.

Spinning Darkness - I prefer this over contagion for the fact that while it’s still free, only hurts your Yawgmoths will and doesn’t hurt your hand. It gives you life to boot.

Contagion - Not a bad card at all, though I think it to be a bit over rated. Powder keg does the same thing. It can cripple a large creature, or nail a pair of early X/1’s, which is quite nice. The only thing I don’t like about the card is that its not good for the reason Force of Will is good. The card disadvantage is enough to make me stick with Spinning Darkness and Masticore as my anti-critters.

Null Rod - A consideration based solely on metagame. I would consider using this vs. Academy, Funker, Workshop decks and even Scroll Rack based decks.

Perish - Kills stompy, but personally I’d rather rely on kegs, and Dystopia. If stompy is popular in your area, which is rare, these probably deserve a second look.

Diabolic Edict - It's great against morphling, should it ever hit the board. It also kills fast fatty decks like Workshop, Funker, Reanimator, etc. I personally use a pair in the board.

Chainer's Edict - This is another good consideration. With more mana than keeper, you can usually make use of the nice flashback feature. Of course under a Void the flashback is almost unusable.

Planar Void - Preferred sideboard card against the Worldgorger Dragon deck, Reanimator, and general recursion decks.

Tormod’s Crypt - Against the right decks (Oath, Dragon.dec, Reanimator) there is nothing like a well timed crypt.

Phyrexian Furnace - Against decks where it's really only one or two cards in the graveyard that hurt you, this is the king. At the very least, it can replace itself.

Gloom - Don’t use this. Nether Void is quite enough.
Additional creatures - They may be a set of Negators, some pump knights, Masticores, or even Phyrexian Warbeast. It’s always good in case you need to go more aggro.

Typical Side boarding and Match up analysis

As with any deck, common sense on a case by case basis is really needed here.

Section 1 - Common Mono-colored aggressive strategies.

Sligh[/i]
+1 Keg
+4 Spinning
-4 Duress
-1 Necro

Typically sligh has nothing to side in against you, as you are in the Suicide Black bracket and won’t waste any SB space on you. Nothing else in your deck needs to be cut, and yes the consult is GOLD here. Keg hard, and get the Void out quickly.

Stompy[/i]
-2 Kegs (they will side in Null Rods)
+2 Dystopia
(-4 Duress, + 3 Masticore +1 Keg - for stompy with no Null Rod)

Game one is all about killing them with Powder Keg. With 3-4 main deck, you shouldn’t have a problem finding one. The strategy here is simple; Keg what hits play and Hymn what isn’t. Be wary of Quirion Rangers negating your land kill, these guys should generally be keg’d on sight if mana denial is going to be key here.

Some stompy players prefer Winter Orbs over Null Rods. If it's rods, it is more difficult to pull out a win here since your all-star card, Powder Keg, is usually nullified. In this case, side in Dystopia. Sure he can lyrist it, but it ought to kill a few things first.

Another thing to remember here is to use your landkill. A sinkhole can go along way against a deck so mana light, and once you get a void into play, its doubtful they will reach the proper mana in time.

Suicide Black[/i]
-2 Kegs
+2 Edicts

This will be one of your hardest mono-colored match ups. It’ll be almost like a mirror as the outcome largely depends on who goes first, and what starting hands were. If you can crap a Void out real fast, do so. Otherwise, use discard to snag their own discard so you won’t be hurt by it. Use kegs to deal with opposing Shades and Reavers. A quick Negator can be deadly, but don’t be afraid to chump block it with a 3/3 factory. Your lone land is worth them sacrificing 3 permanents. Remember that you most likely run more mana, so don’t be afraid to trade one for one if it will cripple them under a Void.

The weaker versions that run the zombies can be more easily dealt with. Block the 2/2’s all day long with Mishra’s forcing them to accelerate their loss with zombie damage. Null Rods kill your kegs, so be less reliant on those.

One strategy I favor is to exploit the weakness in their creatures. If you run the same version as I, you run zero hindered creatures main deck. Block the Negators, and focus on killing key permanents so sacrificing their own permanents to the 5/5 monster becomes too hindering. Don’t be afraid to race the Reaver. If you can keep them at a similar life total, later in the game Reaver will become too damaging to attack as a mere chump blocker will accelerate your race. Nantuko Shade generally attacks through him. Even if he blocks, pump to save your bug and make him still take 4 while losing a creature in the process.

A word of warning, Suicide IS faster on the clock than you so early on you will be playing the defense. Concentrate on turning this around until you are the aggressor.

Versions running Zombie are more vulnerable to kegs. If you can get around Null Rod, use the kegs.

White Weenie[/i]
-4 Sinkhole (or -3 Void -1 Wasteland)
+3 Masticore
+1 Powder Keg

This match won't be too difficult regardless of the Land Tax or Tithes they will undoubtedly pack. Mana denial should be key in killing off color mana sources as many White Weenie Deck's run a secondary color. If it is mono-color, play as aggressive as you can, and let keg take out multiple creatures. This will slow them down beyond the crawling speed they already have.

Post sideboard, you bring in a 4th Keg if you don’t already have it maindeck. More importantly, you bring in Masticore. Hell you could even bring in Dystopia if you want to cause some serious mental trauma.

Hymn and Duress your life away, this will help keep swords to plowshares under control. I personally take hits to the nose from pump knights, if it meant be dealing a close amount of damage. A long keg or Masticore can really screw these decks.

Section 2 - Control

Keeper[/i]

I can’t give an exact without seeing what KIND of keeper I’m facing. I would use probably Dystopia/Negator/Keg mixture. You will do well against it anyways. They will probably side compost, bridge, COP: Black, or even Timetwister in against you assuming what will save them from suicide black will against save them here.

Your sideboard will have plenty of tools to use against it, should you need them.

The edicts can be used, but are rarely needed. The Negators can take the place of the Shades if they would serve you better. Dystopia is always great, as it kills pesky enchantments like the ones I mentioned above. Even another Keg can be helpful at times.

A word of play advice, its not always the right play to put a Void into play against keeper. It runs heavy mana too, and if it’s got abundance of mana, then you will really need to reconsider Void usefulness in that situation. Often times though, it’ll be a good play to get it out before they reach plenty of mana and squeeze a quick win out with a fast creature. Otherwise the adage is to ‘Keg first, Void after.’

Let me remind you that the main deck here is solid against keeper. Be careful of what you side out because you could just end up worse off.

OSE[/i]
-2 Kegs (only a few Moxen, not much for 1cc perms)
+2 Edicts

Basically, watch out for Teferi's Response. Other than that, you should have no problems. Those versions that run Masticore roll over and generally die to suicide and void alike. Your Mishra’s are better since you have more land kill. Treat it like keeper otherwise, and beware of suicide Morphling. That’s why you side in the 2 edicts.

Mono-blue[/i]
-4 Shades
+1 Keg
+3 Negators

Go more aggressive here. Game one is usually a win. Throw discard at them, then keg away moxen. Don’t be afraid of them countering things, because it will happen. Hopefully you will force them into using pitch counters, gaining card advantage until you can either slam a Void or a massive creature out.

Duress is your best friend, and used with a hymn generally spells the game out for you. You will probably draw kegs, even when there is no moxen to blow up, build it to three and leave it. It will smoke an ophidian, and in two short turns (only taking one smack ) it will kill Morphling.

Remember they mostly have a card drawing engine that requires hitting you for 1 every turn. Use Factories to block. The factories will survive until a back to basics hits play, which it almost never does.

Tubbies/Stacker[/i]
-3 Nether Void
-1 Necropotence
+3 Edict
+1 Keg

If this is in your area, pack in the edicts and rods. Take out the kegs. Your goal is to survive the fatties it’ll just crap out, make the artifact mana useless (with keg pre board, and rods post board), waste workshops on sight, then force a void into play. This will hopefully be enough to stop the deck cold, basically just accept this deck to be your worst match up by far.

Be careful of stacker as it is simply your hardest match up. Honestly, if you're playing Void in an area with any more than one workshop deck, you probably deserve to lose anyway.

Section 3 - Less popular, but still competitive decks.

Zoo[/i]
+1 Keg
-1 Necropotence
(Maybe +3 Masticore, or +2 Edicts depending on the Zoo build)

This match up will be easier than sligh simply because it runs duals, making your wastelands better. Your kegs are absolute gold here. They kill all the one drops quickly, and a free keg can wipe out Call of the Herd and moxen altogether.
If you’re facing the fatty builds, then I am confident you will just win as your mana denial will be too much for them before the Void drops.

Combo[/i]

Void has a better chance in the academy match up over Suicide black, simply because of the added 3 Nether Voids.
Against Academy you will have to keg/strip away the mana, and hymn away their hand. Against Trix, you will be able to pummel them before they can get rolling fast enough. Other, slower combo decks really stand no chance.

Parfait[/i]
-3 Void
-2 Wasteland
+2 Dystopia
+3 Negators

This deck will be a hard matchup game one simply because so much of your deck is useless. Wastelands target the occasional Serra’s Sanctum, land tax churns near unlimited mana and keeps his hand full, and moat is less of a problem to cast.

Post board, lighten up on the land kill, and pretend you are a suicide black player. Don’t be so concerned about his mana development as you would about the cards he is holding. Make him discard often, play your weaker creatures first to absorb whatever critter kill he has. Each one of your critters is good against his creature control. Beat him with one larger creature (Negator or Shade) with perhaps a mishra for added punch.

Finally, I'll list my current sideboard for a mixed environment.

3 Dystopia
4 Spinning Darkness
1 Powder Keg
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Masticore
1 Phyrexian Furnace

[Matt The Great]

Technical anal-retentive mode: ON

EDIT:Fixed em. -Z

Quote there is 8 Workshop decks

"are 8 Workshop decks"
You may also consider not putting dated comments in a document that is meant to stand for some time.


That should clean this thing up a bit. As for the content, it mostly looks good, but I have a question - why not Spinning Darkness vs. Stompy?\n\n

[Zherbus]

LOL.

Ok, Im gonna send part three to you before posting...really I am.

Lots of editing to do, but that what this is for.

[drkavngr]

But .. Master is not the mastacores casting cost high?  Does not the discard hurt when refilling your hand is so difficult to begin with?  Does not the null rod shut it down?

Why Master, why!! ??

[Zherbus]

If a deck is likely to side Rod is, then yeah dont bother.

Usually all the rod comes in from is Stompy and Suicide (which youd never wanna use masticore against anyways). Aggro doesn't suffer from discard (other than initial beginning turns) later in the game. So basically every duress, hymn, sometimes sinkholes, and (under void or with no Shade out) dark ritual is useless against aggro, all the while feeding Masticore.

Matt, as far as Spinning Darkness against Stompy - Yeah you could do that...but the amount of pump in the deck rather annoys me.\n\n

[gregggggggggg]

Quote Mana denial should be key in killing off color mana sources as mana WW run a secondary color.

Don't you mean "many WW" instead of "mana WW"?

[Freddie]

Sheesh Zherbus, you got Drkavngr calling you master...

Great indepth look into the SB and matchups, I really respect the amount of time and focus put into these primers, good job, regardless of typo's.

-Freddie

[Nil8er]

Quote If you can keep them at a similar life total, later in the game Reaver will become to damaging to attack as a mere chump blocker will accelerate your race.

This should be "too damaging" instead of "to damaging."

[carl]

Quote Keeper

I can’t give an exact without seeing what KIND of keeper I’m facing

I can't give an exact what? answer? advice?

Keep going, I'll finally try Void

[Zherbus]

I cant give an exact side in-side out card by card list...keepers tend to vary...sometimes you really need to side little in...othertimes you need a little extra.

I bring in keg #4 at times, swamp negators and shades other times, etc. Keeper is so elastic, from player to player/build to build its tough to say "Side X in, and Y out."

[Os-Vegeta]

Edits fixed. Thanks  -Z

When you say Stacker, which version are you talking about?  I play this version of  Stacker - B/U Control Stacker (my version runs The Abyss MD along with 1 Masticore and either 1 Teeka's Dragon or 1 Flowstone Sculpture MD).  
Or are you talking about JP Meyer's mono-red version?\n\n

[Zherbus]

Quote When you say Stacker, which version are you talking about?  I play this version of  Stacker - B/U Control Stacker (my version runs The Abyss MD along with 1 Masticore and either 1 Teeka's Dragon or 1 Flowstone Sculpture MD).  
Or are you talking about JP Meyer's mono-red version?

Stacker2 is mono red, tubbies contains blue.

Fixed all your edits, thanks.

EDIT: Stacker to Stacker2 for those anal enough to care.\n\n

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote Stacker is mono red, tubbies contains blue.

I always thought the mono-red was Stacker 2 and Tubbies was also called Stacker.    Thanks for the clarification.

[Big Blue]

Three points:

1. Masticore - I do not like it and the way I play this deck I also do not need it - I side out all the hand-disruption against aggro, so I do not see any dead cards. Since you play it more suicide-ish, maybe it is good though. But to argue that you can discard useless cards is rather weak, IMO. Why do you play useless cards in the first place?

2. Rancid Earth/Icequake - they are absolute key in winning games 2/3 against Sligh - one really wants to shut down their mana and play the Void ASAP, using free Contagions/Darkness to clean the board - and voila, you win. Again, in suicide-mode these cards are not necessary, but I am beginning to suspect that we are playing two different archetypes, despite of very similar decklists.

3. Engineered Plague (© Matt D'Avanzo) - I don't play 3 like Matt (if he still does), but 1 random Plague can be quite nice (Stompy, Sligh and the random WW) .

As an example, here is how I typically side against Sligh (our maindecks are essentially equivalent, apart from the Ports instead of Factories and the Negators instead of Shades - and I play 4 Kegs):

out: 4 Duress, 4 Hymn, 1 Necro, 1 Negator (I play 3 MD)
in: 4 Rancid Earth, 1 Engineered Plague, 2 Spinning Darkness, 3 Contagion

so I am REALLY playing a control deck after SBing! Only 2 Negators and 4 Hyppies for the kill and plenty of creature kill (and landkill...).

[drkavngr]

Big Blue

Dude, his argument is not weak.  He is simply saying that aginst those decks in under that condition you can't use them.  I.E.  VS a aggro with void out, dark ritual is useless, so why not pitch it to a mastacore?

Dark ritual pre void is a strong card, mastacore aginst aggro is strong.  Getting the picture?

I am not sure at what point Rancid Earth/Icequake has ever become nessicary, for me anyways sink holes, wastelands, a stripmine and yawgs will is enough.

I don't like E. plauge but I do endorse perish aginst stompy.

[Big Blue]

You know, post-Void you SHOULD win against aggro anyway, so the Dark Ritual issue, while sometimes annyoing, is not such a big one. I was mainly refering to discard - why play discard at all against aggro? Sure, a Hymn in the beginning still can be good, but I rather prefer to go into pure LD mode. Up to now, this has worked perfectly for me (against aggro) and I am quite confident when facing Sligh in games 2-3 (and sometimes I can even steal game 1).

Rancid Earths are very good (although not tremendously different from Icequakes) against aggro as they help you to complete your landkill. It is probably a single minded strategy to focus on their land and the board, rather than trying to disrupt their hand as well, but usually Sligh dumps its hand quite fast anyway, so apart from the Lotus+double Hymn start Sligh does not care much about Hymn and even less about Duress.

Now, as much as I would like to try the Factory version seriously I think I would have only bad results, because it really does not seem to fit my playing style. Probably your comparison with OSE/Keeper is a good one. I am very old school...

I believe you that Factory works better for you, but that is what I meant with "more general perspective" in another post: a primer should be suitable for players with different style (maybe it is sufficient to point out that this is closer to Suicide than to a Control deck). Or maybe you could add a warning to the primer like "Attention: This is NOT a mono-B control deck but a slow Suicide deck with excellent Abyss defense".

[drkavngr]

I think the argument of ports and mishras could go on all day.

The bottom line is that it does depend on your play style.  I don't think it's fair to call it a "slow Suicide deck with excellent Abyss defense" because it's not slow at all, I kill most people off by turn  5 or 6.  In my opinion ports delay a nether void deck, by takeing 2 lands to nutralize one.

If playing ports and icequakes wins you games then more power to you!  Ill stick with the factorys for now.

peace

[Cavalry19D]

drkavngr:

so you leave the Negators IN verses sligh ?
I really don't see the logic in that.

I realize you're probably not stupid enough to 1st turn ritual/negator... but still.

Would not a shade be better under Void lock anyway ? It's pumpable so it can servive burn, you don't have to sac perms, during Void lock he can prabably swing for more than 5 anyway if need be, AND he's cheaper.

[Freddie]

Drkavngr only plays Negators in the SB, he playes the same exact MD card for card as Zherbus.

-Freddie

[Zherbus]

Yeah, the only person who plays Negators maindeck in this discussion, and actually leaves them against sligh, is Big Blue. Like he said, he is very old school and is sold on D'Avanzo's deck.

D'Avanzo's deck is very different, he has a good primer for it and Im not gonna touch that.

Keep in mind, I havent put part 3 up, which is basically made up in part of the things Big Blue has been debating about.

[Big Blue]

Quote He is very old school

I kind of like this description. It is probably even true.

Just three minor remarks:
1. Yes, I leave Negators in against Sligh - but only 2 of them; playing MD Negators has been very nice when facing Forbiddian or Keeper - I doubt that I would have won some of the closer games with Nantuko Shade
2. I concede that Nantuko Shade is an excellent choice for NetherVoid - probably it should be the default creature instead of Negator; however, for explosive starts against control (and combo!) Negator is still better - but to tell you the truth the main reason I do not play Shades is that they are too expensive in terms of $ - I do not have the monetary resources of T2 players...
3. I am a control player by heart - maybe that explains my affinty towards Matt's build rather than to more Suicide-ish builds

I will wait patiently for your third part before making further comments.

[TheMailman]

Back to sideboarding for a second if everyone doesn't mind.

In the keeper matchup, I understand that what you side depends alot on the keeper, but what are some suggestions as to what to pull out? With all due respect to Factories, I play a more DAvanzo-ish Void with ports, and against the sole keeper in my metagame I want to side in two Dystopias and two Negators. So far I've just pulled two ports for two dystopias, since they're not as necessary with five active strip mines (wastes). I've also considered dropping one of four kegs. Since all I really keg are moxes and four is a little excessive. I suppose siding out two Shades for two Negators is possible, but I'd love to have six ways to smack on turn two. Any other suggestions?

Also, against suicide black, I was thinking of testing something a little more janky than contagion in the sideboard against suicide black. One idea is patchwork gnomes. (yes, patchwork gnomes) They're ritual-able and they stand up nicely to Reavers and Negators, even with kegs. Of course, against discard, they may not be the wisest choise. Another idea I had was cursed scroll. It would be generally effective against Hyppies, Negators, and Shades. Obviously I don't drop a hand in Void like in Sligh, but it usually doesn't take me too long to get down to one or two cards, especially against discard. So am I insane? Has anyone ever tested either of these (...patchwork gnomes...riiight.)?

[Big Blue]

It is a bit difficult to give SB advises without seeing the decklist, but from what you wrote I can guess that you play 4 Shades+4 Hyppies as creatures and (as you wrote) 4 Ports instead of Factories (plus the usual NetherVoid stuff).

Against Keeper I usually do not bother with Dystopia, since nobody plays Compost here (and Hyppies can evade the ultra-rare Moat). Also COP:Black is disfavoured here since most mono-B decks are Pox decks. So... I simply do not have your problem, because normally I do not have to side anything against Keeper (usually I flip 1 Keg for 1 Dystopia, though, just to be sure). But let me try...

I think you can safely go down to 3 Kegs and maybe even 2. As for the rest, I do not think siding out Ports is a good idea. First of all, they give mana and you need it, especially against Keeper (sometimes these games boil down to who draws a land first wins). And second, the whole idea of Port is that it shines against Control, while still being ok against aggro. So siding them out against Keeper leads to the question why you play them in the first place. If you really must, side out 1, but not more.

If you play Vampiric you could consider of siding it out against Keeper (although you will lose some brokenness this way).

Moreover, I think that 8 Creatures is okay in such a deck - you do not have to play 10, unless you play it more like a Suicide deck (but then you should probably play 12-14 creatures to start with).

So siding in the 2 Dystopias (provided you really need them) is no problem, but fitting in 2 Dystopias+2 extra creatures is only possible with
-2 Kegs (supposing you play 4 MD)
-1 Port
-1 Vampiric
There is no other way I can think of if you REALLY need these 4 slots.

[TheMailman]

Good guesses, Blue.

I do run 4 shades and 4 hyppies along with 4 ports, the usual Void stuff and a vampiric over a consultation (those things always scare the hell out of me).

The one fully powered keeper in my metagame plays an older version with moat and with cop black in the SB, not to mention the ever pesky sylvan cheater. The rest of the metagame is mostly creature based zoo/stompy/sligh along with other more original designs.

In any case, you don't feel a real need to sideboard against keeper? Well, you do already have the negators maindeck, right? How well do you typically do (wins/losses) before and after they sideboard?

One other question... since you also run ports, do you think that the misha build is stronger against a deck like sui black or stompy? I haven't finished the testing im doing between the two builds, but at first glance it strikes me that the mishra build might work better against the early rush.

[Zherbus]

The Mishra version IS stronger overall.

Quote In any case, you don't feel a real need to sideboard against keeper? Well, you do already have the negators maindeck, right? How well do you typically do (wins/losses) before and after they sideboard?

You really need to be careful about what you take out, because your maindeck, in either port or mishra's version, is strong against control already.

Quote One other question... since you also run ports, do you think that the misha build is stronger against a deck like sui black or stompy? I haven't finished the testing im doing between the two builds, but at first glance it strikes me that the mishra build might work better against the early rush.

Mishra build offers you something other than Kegs to deal with quick beats. Mishra's sneak under Abyss and force keeper to scramble for that wasteland while the rest of thier resources are being drained. Their wastelands are important to them as every bit of colorless mana counts against you. In addition, it also sneaks damage in so your nantuko shade or negator has to smack him less.

[Big Blue]

I have a very good score against Keeper (pre- and post-SB) with the Port-version (like 60:40, which is quite good against a deck like Keeper, I'd say; in exaggerated mode I would even claim 70:30) and a rather poor score with the Factory version (like 40:60 or <ex>30:70</ex>). Maybe that was just bad luck or maybe I just play the Port version better, but that is my experience. Let me emphasize, though, that most of the games were fairely close (apart from his broken starts or mine) - i.e. 1 turn plus or minus or 1 land plus or minus would have made all the difference.

To be on the safe side I usually board 1 single Dystopia for 1 Keg, but that's it (to tell you the truth I cannot remember having Dystopia in play against Keeper). My pre-SB version seems to be almost perfect against Keeper and very good against mono-U as well, which at the time that I played this deck in T1 was most important (pre-FoF restriction). Necro just kills Keeper and it is so much fun to watch him play an Abyss only to be removed by a NetherVoid.

Against Sui and probably also Stompy Mishra's seem to be superior. Against Sligh I think it is about 50/50 - the disadvantage of activated Factories is that they are very likely to be bolted unless you wait for the NetherVoid lock. But  the lock is easier achieved by the aid of Ports. The disadvantage of Ports is that even when you are desperate (and you would have been lucky about the bolts or rather their absence) there is no way that you can block with them.

Some counter-points to Zherbus' arguments:

Quote Mishra build offers you something other than Kegs to deal with quick beats.

Only if you are very lucky against Sligh. Against Sui, the statement is true (unless you are very unlucky and he actually does have the Diabolic Edict). Against Stompy the Factory is likely to be killed. Against Zoo variants we have again the Bolt-scenario. I believe the 3 damage absorbed in that way do not balance the land-loss (which sets you back at least 1 turn, which is especially crucial in the early game against aggro).

Quote Mishra's sneak under Abyss

Although this is true, NetherVoid decks have very good defense against The Abyss: on top of all the disruption also present in Sui you have 3 NetherVoids! So The Abyss is not such a big deal (and with PORTS on top of Strip/Waste/Sink he is not likely to have 4 mana available all the time).

Quote force keeper to scramble for that wasteland while the rest of thier resources are being drained.

This statement is not necessarily true - with some lifes available, Keeper can wait a few turns, which can make all the difference. With Ports in the game, this option is not available. On a sidenote, Ports CAN be used for the kill against Keeper. I have actually won 1 game by tapping every turn 2 COBs, but I admit that this does not happen regularly.

Quote In addition, it also sneaks damage in so your nantuko shade or negator has to smack him less.

Again, this is true, but not very important, I would say. 3 attacks with Mishra's are roughly 1 attack with either the Shade or the Negator. The idea is not to play thread after thread and to hope that enough damage piles up, but to disrupt and to lay 1 bomb, which rides for the victory in 4 turns (or which disrupts him so much that you have practically won). If you play NetherVoid such that you want to play many threads, rather than just 1, you should consider playing Suicide (although I concede that the boundary between these two archetypes need not be a strict one). But even in Sui I rarely see Factories, so the question arises whether better choices are available.

[Zherbus]

Quote I have a very good score against Keeper (pre- and post-SB) with the Port-version (like 60:40, which is quite good against a deck like Keeper, I'd say; in exaggerated mode I would even claim 70:30) and a rather poor score with the Factory version (like 40:60 or <ex>30:70</ex>). Maybe that was just bad luck or maybe I just play the Port version better, but that is my experience. Let me emphasize, though, that most of the games were fairely close (apart from his broken starts or mine) - i.e. 1 turn plus or minus or 1 land plus or minus would have made all the difference.

Well your the only one getting these results. I do just as well, and dare I say a bit better, against control now. Its simply a matter of play style. If your playing my version like it was null and Void then of course you'll do worse.

I thought you said you were gonna hold back until part 3 came out? I can answer everything your bringing up, and I will but the 'new' info in part 3 will be in part, old.

Quote
To be on the safe side I usually board 1 single Dystopia for 1 Keg, but that's it (to tell you the truth I cannot remember having Dystopia in play against Keeper). My pre-SB version seems to be almost perfect against Keeper and very good against mono-U as well, which at the time that I played this deck in T1 was most important (pre-FoF restriction).Necro just kills Keeper and it is so much fun to watch him play an Abyss only to be removed by a NetherVoid.

Against Sui and probably also Stompy Mishra's seem to be superior. Against Sligh I think it is about 50/50 - the disadvantage of activated Factories is that they are very likely to be bolted unless you wait for the NetherVoid lock. But the lock is easier achieved by the aid of Ports. The disadvantage of Ports is that even when you are desperate (and you would have been lucky about the bolts or rather their absence) there is no way that you can block with them.

First, control decks have gotten a small bit worse since FoF has been restricted...right about the same time as I took ports out of my Void and added mishra's.

You constantly bring up sligh as if it was some huge threat to Void. With Null and Void, you depended on that lock. With Devil's Bile you do not. You disrupt them, because they arent gonna draw what you just hymned away back. You keg away little shits that snuck out, you kill a land or two and drop a Void.

Slight runs ASS for mana. Playing 'I want to lock you down mister mana curve of 1' with my deck is like jerking off with sand paper because those motions worked well when sanding down a piece of wood, why not sand down your male unit?

You play 'I just reduced your hand to zilch, hurt your mana development, I dropped a Void, and now am forcing you to deal with my Factories, Hippies, and Shades. After I get the Void down, every wasteland they use, every bolt they manage on squeezing out costs them a turn.

Quote Some counter-points to Zherbus' arguments:

Quote Mishra build offers you something other than Kegs to deal with quick beats.

Only if you are very lucky against Sligh. Against Sui, the statement is true (unless you are very unlucky and he actually does have the Diabolic Edict). Against Stompy the Factory is likely to be killed. Against Zoo variants we have again the Bolt-scenario. I believe the 3 damage absorbed in that way do not balance the land-loss (which sets you back at least 1 turn, which is especially crucial in the early game against aggro).

Sligh doesnt bother me. It doesnt particularly run cards that are GOOD against me. Jesus, they want to gun for control, not me. Low Mana count and low mana curve creatures < Nether Void and its kegs.

Stompy loves kegs too. They are an easier matchup than sligh because all they have is critters and pump. Keg works, discard works, and a sinkhole or a Void just plain PARALYZES.

Zoo? Zoo gets wastelanded alot. Sinkholed, Hymned, and Voided too. They whole time Keg keeps its little shits at bay (and kills moxen if they run many of them) until Nantuko shade cannot be dealt with by a top decked Bolt.

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Quote Mishra's sneak under Abyss

Although this is true, NetherVoid decks have very good defense against The Abyss: on top of all the disruption also present in Sui you have 3 NetherVoids! So The Abyss is not such a big deal (and with PORTS on top of Strip/Waste/Sink he is not likely to have 4 mana available all the time).

Void is not always drawn. Sometimes you have to pretend your suicide. Plain and simple. Mishra's sneaking under the abyss is a much welcome, though minor bonus.

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Quote force keeper to scramble for that wasteland while the rest of thier resources are being drained.

This statement is not necessarily true - with some lifes available, Keeper can wait a few turns, which can make all the difference. With Ports in the game, this option is not available. On a sidenote, Ports CAN be used for the kill against Keeper. I have actually won 1 game by tapping every turn 2 COBs, but I admit that this does not happen regularly.

So the fact that Mishra's can do anything from 6 damage to closing the game means nothing? Ports simply tap a land every upkeep and much like factories, will get wasted on site. Except with ports Keeper is at (Insert how many times factories could have attacked here, then multiply by 2) higher life.

Factory versions are FAR less control based. Damage counts here.

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Quote In addition, it also sneaks damage in so your nantuko shade or negator has to smack him less.

Again, this is true, but not very important, I would say. 3 attacks with Mishra's are roughly 1 attack with either the Shade or the Negator. The idea is not to play thread after thread and to hope that enough damage piles up, but to disrupt and to lay 1 bomb, which rides for the victory in 4 turns (or which disrupts him so much that you have practically won). If you play NetherVoid such that you want to play many threads, rather than just 1, you should consider playing Suicide (although I concede that the boundary between these two archetypes need not be a strict one). But even in Sui I rarely see Factories, so the question arises whether better choices are available.

There you go again. No wonder you do poorly with Factory Void. You just wont let the whole control thing go. If you play that conservatively, you really SHOULD stick to port bsed Void.

As far as the whole 'you might as well play suicide' mentality goes:

Suicide and my Void both hit hard in the first turns? Yes.

Suicide and My Void both runs plenty of threats? Yes.

So both play styles for either deck can be similiar? Yes.

We forgot one thing.

Suicide is in TOP DECK mode after about turn 3. It stays there until it draws Yawgmoths Will(or necro if it can run it) or it wins by the opposing player being able to recover.

Void runs 5 cards over the 1, possibly 2, cards that seal the lead. Void can empty its hand like Suicide and then drop Necro, play a Will, or DROP A VOID.

After a Void hits, topdeck mode isnt so horrible.\n\n

[TheMailman]

I must just be getting ass draws...

or that's what I've been telling myself. Like I said before, I play a void deck closer to Big Blue's, but with shades instead of negators. However, since you put out this primer Zherbus, I've been testing mishra's instead of ports. Unfortunately, I keep getting smacked about the head and neck by stompy when I go to three kegs and mishra's. (That is, I switch ports for mishra's and drop a keg for the necropotence, which I usually don't run MD in my metagame) Theoretically I think most would agree that mishra's over ports in game one against stompy should do better. So I'm either getting really bad draws on apprentice, or I'm playing this version wrong.

Do you typically go for a void ASAP and clean up with a keg, eating the initial rush? Wastes and duress are useless. I try to block early with a creature--preferably a shade or factory, but it usually gets taken out either to a must-kill rancor-ed creature or a giant growth/bounty of the hunt. They can just keep spitting out creatures, even with just the emerald.

Of course, if a void hits and I see a shade and/or keg it's a different story, but getting there's the problem. I should also add that post sideboard stompy gets crushed by either version, simply because the creature hosers come in.

In any case, I get about 20% win with Mishra's and about 50% with ports on game one. All I can think of is maybe the extra keg is making a bigger impact than I'd guess. Any suggestions?

[Zherbus]

Quote Do you typically go for a void ASAP and clean up with a keg, eating the initial rush?

Yep. I'll eat 15 damage if I have to, as long as keg can clean the board after Void hits. Stompy sucks post Void. If you keg away 3-4 dorks after slaming a Void down, you won.  You REALLY have to exploit the fact that they run shit for land and all the critters they have are 1cc.

A few notes:
While Duress is something you'd want to side out, it CAN snag land grants, and at worse case secenerio, a critter pump spell.

This matchup makes you scramble and thats when it brings out the best in you.

On a note about apprentice: The shuffler is so ASS, that there will be games where you wont see kegs at all, others where you wont see Shades, and games where you will see neither.

If I was playing almost exclusively on appr, I might swap the Sol Ring for the 4th Keg. You get mana flooded often with appr usually anyways.

[Nicol Bolas]

Quote (Zherbus @ July 30 2002,10:01)They will probably side compost, bridge, COP: Black, or even Timetwister in against you assuming what will save them from suicide black will against save them here.

Shouldn't it read: "save them again here." ?

Good primer so far, of all the decks I have tried thus far in type 1 Nethervoid is my favorite. I gotta talk my buddies into this format.