Breaking down the artifact invasion.

[Gothmog]

I know its primitive, but you guys do occasionally hard-cast your creatures, right?  The idea of pulling all the Masticores for Triskelions seems crazy to me.  You guys are making your decks more combo than beatdown the further you go down this path.

The great part of these decks are the multiple paths to victory and the synergy between the various paths.  You're taking away one path (Casting creatures via Workshop & acceleration) and relying too heavily on Survival/Welder.

Please leave in the Masticores, which you can cast reasonably early if you have to.  Pimp-Bot (Triskelion) recursion is awesome, but Masticore is entirely too good to not play.

[cooberp]

Gothmog: Tangle Wire is not nearly as good as Winter Orb, because it only taps four permanents and loses its effectiveness quickly if you don't have a Welder.  Plus it's more expensive.  WOrb is a real lock card--yes, like Armageddon--that seals your momentum.

Koen--I now swear by the Bird.  The ability to tutor for red and Survival for +3 mana acceleration is too good, I do it in about 2/3 of my games.
Agree that this is an aggro deck that doesn't really want to Wasteland, but I wouldn't go below 3 strips because you will lose to LoA.
Bolts suck.  I tested them.
Justin--Triskelion *is* better, by far.  I have been very disappointed with the Nasticore.  But I still think that one is needed just because you can't always get to six mana.  It also does regenerate, and sometimes, of course, you want to pitch cards.
Orangutan kills opposing artifact creatures and expensive artifacts for a cheap price.  I tried cutting him but in testing there were too many times when I wanted him.  Plus he can beat.
Karn and Shaman have their tradeoffs.

Crazy thought--what about Crop Rotation as a 5th Workshop and additional Wasteland thwarting?

[Thug]

Quote Koen--I now swear by the Bird.  The ability to tutor for red and Survival for +3 mana acceleration is too good, I do it in about 2/3 of my games.

Heh, guess I'll have to try it some more  

Ranger has done a great ob today protecting my lonely taiga from 3 wastelands  

I don't like Masticore for early beatdown, the cost is too high to keep him alive. I would like to see another artifact creature joining the army for early beatdown, but not masticore.

Triskelion is just...amazing. Today I Tinkered it out against suicide served for 4 and killed a shade (he was tapped out).
Yes, I did, I tinkered for Triskelion over Memory Jar.

Uktabi Orangutan and Gorilla Shaman serve different purposes. Gorilla shaman is mainly there to take out Zuran Orb and Moxes. Orangutan is to take out an artifact that has a high CC as is really stalling you (like ensnaring bridge).

I haven't tried out the winterorbs yet. Its very hard to get some spots for them, however I like the Idea of having Birds, Quirion Ranger and Winter Orb in play  

Im off to do some more testing, (and have dinner)

Koen

[bebe]

I noticed an absence of Stacker, Funker and TnT among the top decks at GenCon. However this deck without any color support and no 'Cores or Trikes made top four. I'm not knocking the deck as it did very well but it has a few very curious choices...

Jeffrey Anand
Main Deck
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Memory Jar
1 Voltaic Key
3 Cursed Scroll
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Metalworker
3 Snake Basket
4 Juggernaut
2 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Aeopile
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
2 Null Brooch
4 Grafted Skullcap
2 Jester's Cap
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Ancient Tomb

 Sideboard:
3 Defense Grid
2 Jester's Cap
2 Null Brooch
4 Dodecapod
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Winter Orb

[Fishhead]

Quote I know its primitive, but you guys do occasionally hard-cast your creatures, right?  The idea of pulling all the Masticores for Triskelions seems crazy to me.  

Absolutely.  I am playing 2 Masticore, 2 Trike, 2 Squee right now, as I expect to see a lot of Aggro in my metagame.  I dont find the upkeep to be too much on the 'Core and he just wrecks RG speed.  Triskellion is pretty good, but not until you get the Welder does he pose the same level of threat.  

Quote but I really like the Quirion Ranger

Yes, my favorite piece of tech to come out of this discussion.  Too bad he cant return Workshops.  I worry that he's not able to stay on the board due to Keg and that recurring him with Genesis is too expensive in BtB matchups but he does certainly do some cool tricks.

[BigChuck]

2 Masticores AND 2 trikes seems like a lot to me. You never want multiple cores. You have the survival to assure you have what you need. Even if you really fear aggro, this deck is most definitely capable of putting down a first turn fatty, which should give aggro problems anyway.

[Fishhead]

Quote Even if you really fear aggro, this deck is most definitely capable of putting down a first turn fatty, which should give aggro problems anyway.

In practice the Juggies are just Bolt bait and the Su-Chi is suboptimal due to mana-burn issues.  Against Aggro you really want to drop a Masticore or a Trike or an Angered Welder to fetch one or the other ASAP.  

I have played multiple 'Cores before, more in that I can risk the first one without regen mana as long as I can fetch a second to play if need be.  

I am definitely more anti-Aggro than might be correct in other metagames though.  I'd think 1 'Core + 2 Trikes is the general build; creature removal is a very weak point in this deck so I'd hesitate to go too low here unless I was expecting all Combo and Control.  (And if I were expecting Combo, I wouldnt play TnT.  

[FeverDog]

Ok, i know i have been away for a LONG time, but when did this Survival tubbies deck appear? It seems very interesting to me. I really wish i could read through this whole thread but i dont have the time at all(12 hr days suck) so i was wondering if someone could just summarize where this deck came from and if the version at the start of the thread is close to optimal. Thank you.

[Vegeta2711]

Um quick summarization.

G/R survival tubbies the first sighting was back at BD where I think Maniac posted it... under the name of mexican christmas (thx goes out to tracer for the first sighting here). The main place the TnT builds came from is Germany (right locale?) where they hold decent sized tourneys (i.e. 50-60 peeps) and there, these kinds of decks have constantly been coming in T8 and winning the tourneys.

I think that quickly summarizes where the deck came from, someone feel free to go into more detail if you want.

The build at the beginning is a basic outline. Were working on a optimal build. The only change a lot of people seem to agree on is adding Quirion Ranger. So add that to the intial decklist and that would probably be how far we've come along w/o major testing.

[micfarm]

Just a thought!
The deck because it  has no direct removal or bounce faces
a lot of problems vs reanimator decks .
so on sb +Guilded Drake (steals Verdant Force, Ph. Nishoba,
but also for Mystic Enforcer,Super-Dryad(grow), noble panther  )
For the  Multani, Maro-Sorcerer the  only solution that I thought was the ....lowland basilisk but I am not ready to spend 1 slot for him.
Of course tormont's crypt are always present on the sb .

[cooberp]

What reanimator decks?

[bebe]

Has anyone considered one Obstinate Familiar in the sideboard?

[Thug]

Quote Has anyone considered one Obstinate Familiar in the sideboard?

Ooh, that's tech, but academy ca just bounce it, most versions of dragon play with a damage card as killer, turboland got fire ice, sickening dreams or other damage cards. So it wont do much
 

[cooberp]

Familiar, however, is yet another nail in the Capsize vs. Lingering Mirage non-debate.
Just remember to Capsize your opponent's Academy at their EOT and not during their turn!

[Justin]

hey coob, are you finding that the bottle gnomes are worth a maindeck spot? i havent tested it yet, the cards ship thursday

[BigChuck]

@ Justin:
I've played Coob's version of the deck, and the bottle gnomes seemed pretty useful. Then again, thats probably because I was play UrPhid and it was stopping the ophidians, but I think being able to recur it with genesis/welder later in the game is extremely useful, as 3 life can sometimes give you the extra turn you need to win.

[cooberp]

You should have some Survivalable, recurrable way to gain life, especially for Price of Progress.  The Gnomes have been very good for moi.

[Fishhead]

Quote the bottle gnomes are worth a maindeck spot?

But you arent actually maindecking them are you?  They live in my sideboard.

Quote I noticed an absence of Stacker, Funker and TnT among the top decks at GenCon. However this deck without any color support and no 'Cores or Trikes made top four.

Has anyone had a chance to try this deck?  

It reminds me thematically of the deck that Olle Rade won a long ago T1 with, back before Mana Crypt etc was restricted.  One idea was to create a ton of mana via Crypt+Hyrkulls Recall etc and then see if your opponent could deal with 30 Snakes before their next turn.

[BigChuck]

About the mono-brown deck:
A few months ago, I played a guy(coincidentally name Guy) who played a similar deck. It won the tourny. There wasn't many good type 1 players there, but the top four consisted of me, spin, the mono-brown deck, and U/b Lich-Donate(don't laugh, its good). The deck was capable of ridiculous starts, like 1st turn metalworker, the playing everything in his hand. I believe the first game against him he snake basketed for 16 2nd turn. The deck is worth trying.

@ Fishhead:
Yes, most people are maindecking them. They are extremely useful. Give 'em a try.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

As I've been sitting next to the decks creator most of the time, I'll give a little more history
TnT was created because Benny (Benjamin Rott, teletubby on zkforum.de) won Duelmen every time he came there playing a different build of tubbies and, well, he had played the other stuff. By the way, Fact became restricted about then and the before powerful U/r version just died. So he designed this deck to replace the card-advantage of four FoF by adding the Survivals. besides his version being Gr only, he won that time, too.
Afterwards blue was added and the decks listing stood unchanged till the incarnations came in. Wonder was the missing uncounterable answer to Moat and Anger is just amazing. For now this deck alone destroyed mono-U over here and recently lets combo rise (as that's the only thing constantly beating it).
the stratgy part:
i don't think Genesis is needed, because if you get the survival going to drop it into your graveyard, you'll beat control anyways, if they don't do the broken stuff (against which Genesis doesn't help you) Against everything else the Survival fills that purpose, too. By the way,  if aggro can remove 2 Trisks, a Masticore and all 4 Welders in short order, they really deserve to win, don't they?
The deck has one bad matchup: any good combo-deck. The best thing I found for that are Jesters Caps in the Side, as you should usually be able to drop one 2nd turn at last.
Sligh is also problematic, because of the 4 PoP and the uselessness of Juggis. Bottle Gnomes in the Side solve that problem though.
one last advice: don't play this thing as a Survival deck just because it has them. it's a Beatdown-deck, so don't remove the beats. 4 Jug, 4 Su-Chi 2 Trisk and 1 Core are the minimum if you want to constantly win against your good matchups. If you allow the Survival to be to important, control just counters that, removes the first thread and is fine (I say this being the one playing Keeper against this freaking monster most of the time). So don't play Birds of Paradise (there is plenty of mana) or Bottle Gnomes main (if don't have a sea of Sligh to walk through). The Ranger may be worth it as added Wasteland/B2B protection. I won't find room for it though.
Don't remove the Shaman or Wastelands, the mana-denial increases your chances against Combo. TnT can have blazing-fast starts and those are enough to get combo sometimes. if put together with Shaman and LD, at least you CAN win these games more than 25% of the time.

Matchups (win-percentage) as concluded from Duelmen-tourneys and playtesting:
Keeper  60%-65%
Mono-U 80+%
Ub Draw-Go 65-70%  
Mono-Black (ButterKnives mostly) 65-70%
Suicide should be over 70%, 'cause of missing Edicts
Sligh 50%
AoS = Army of Squirrels 35% (if you don't know that, goto www.morphling.de and visit last duelmens coverage)
Stompy don't know, it isn't played
TurboNevin 40%
Stacker2 about 60%, seldom played here
Deck Parfait 45% (the only control good against it)
Zoo not played 'cause Tubbies is to strong for it, so guess yourself
Miracle-Grow 60%
Super-Grow 55%
as you see, that deck proved itself to be a monster, when played properly. there is a reason, why a hell lot of the good players started playing combo last duelmen. (while only AoS and TurboNevin reached the Top 8)
oh, for the fun of it: there have been SLIGH-decks maindecking 2 Shattering Pulse in addition to their Shamans...

I hope my english wasn't to bad and I didn't unnerve you all by telling all this stuff!

[Fishhead]

Very useful info.  I agree with 99% of your post, and think anyone seriously thinking of taking this deck to a tournament should read it carefully.

The one thing I didnt agree with, so I am interested in more details:

Quote Mono-U 80+%

The BtB seems to be a big problem for TnT; I am surprised that you feel the win rate is that high.  I feel the matchup is favorable, but not that favorable.

[Thug]

Thnx for all the extra information, Mon

Could you post the decklist wich was used to get those test-results?

Quote i don't think Genesis is needed

Genesis has won me several games pre-sideboard. Its great to get back your destroyed/countered one-of's (Lyrsit, Shaman (in my case), Orangutan etc.) Also your survival gets destroyed from time to time, and it's just great to drop a genesis in your gravyard in responce. I definitely will keep this guy Maindeck.

Quote one last advice: don't play this thing as a Survival deck just because it has them. it's a Beatdown-deck, so don't remove the beatsThnx for the extra information, Mon, Goblin Chief.

After sideboarding in some matchups I play this deck as a survival deck. Say, sligh. I will take out 6 or 7 total of the Juggernauts and the Su-Chi's. And go for Bottle Gnomes and Triskelion.

And what do you think about Winter Orbs, they fit nice into the beatdown strategy,

Koen

[BigChuck]

Quote After sideboarding in some matchups I play this deck as a survival deck. Say, sligh. I will take out 6 or 7 total of the Juggernauts and the Su-Chi's. And go for Bottle Gnomes and Triskelion.

What could you possibly side in that compensates for such a huge lack of beatdown?

[Thug]

check out my sideboard in earlier posts. All artifact and enchantments destruction together with FTK and gnomes.

[cooberp]

Mon--Genesis is a must-include.  It is your only way to recur non-artifact guys, and in the middle through late game it is simply an incredible card drawer.  Once most control decks Gain Control, they can just coast until they find their Morphling.  Genesis is a primary reason why they can't do that against Tubbies--it's an uncounterable card drawer of tremendous power.  I have won numerous games when I have been Balanced and Mind Twisted away to nothing on the table and no hand but won simply because two Genesis activations were an Ancestral Recall every turn and eventually they only had so many card drawer and counterspells.  Cut it at your peril.

While I agree that the fast fat is tremendously important for the deck and its first line of attack, I disagree that you should minimize the importance of Survival.  You're running four of them, after all, and when one hits you should be able to maximize it to full effect.  I'm running the most Survivalesque build of anyone, with maindeck one-ofs Quirion Ranger, Birds of Paradise, Yavimaya Elder, Phyrexian Colossus, and Bottle Gnomes and only one Triskelion to emphasize its tutoring power.  I haven't CUT fast fat for the Survival engine, and the game plan is always to drop the phat beats first.  But most decks have plenty of answers for a turn one Juggernaut or Su-Chi, and unfortunately, more often than not, you don't draw Workshop-Mox-Guy in your opening 7.  

My build is truly a double threat--it goes for the quick kill if it draws it, but if not, it can quickly Survival into an insurmountable advantage.  And I now *swear* by the Birds--having a tutorable source of color fixing and mana acceleration (+3 with Ranger) is priceless.  I tutor for the Birdies in about two-thirds of my games.  I have also won about 75-80% of the games I have played with this deck; however, we all know that online testing is pretty damn worthless.  We'll see what happens when I bust it out at NG or one of these Jersey power proxy tournaments.

I need lots of help with sideboarding.  I have no idea how to do it and especially no response to Aura Fracture.
I love this deck, but NOTHING takes 60-65% from Keeper.  If this deck has an even slightly favorable matchup (55%), that would be a reason to play it all by itself, as it would be the only deck in the metagame that can do better than split against Keeper two out of three.  B2B is way too much of a hoser to take four out of five from mono-U, although my build is tremendously resistant to B2B with Queer, Bird, Elder, and 3 basic Forests and a basic Mountain to Grant for.  It does destroy mono-black, and my version at least has absolutely reamed Sligh, being much more resilient to PoP.  It also crushes Stompy, which has to use up its pump to trade guys and then gets overrun.

WOrbs ROCK.  They are such a huge reason I win, although 3 is definitely too many and two is just optimal.

[Fishhead]

Quote I love this deck, but NOTHING takes 60-65% from Keeper.  

Hehe.  Nothing huh?  That Keeper sure must be a great deck if it has *no* matchup worse than 60%.  But I dont think most Keeper players will agree with you there.  I sure wont.  

Basically, I've been playing TnT for a while now and it has a very favorable matchup against Keeper.  The matchup can get even better after sideboarding, but frankly I feel my matchup is sooo good that I have started cutting down on anti-Keeper cards like Blood Moon.  

I'm personally at 66% against Keeper overall, though closer to 60% against the two strongest of the Keeper players who play in this area.  So, I think Mons numbers are right on here.  

Quote Genesis is a must-include.  ....  Once most control decks Gain Control,

Genesis is by far better in a control environment than in an open environment. Even so, MonoU will be shutting your Genesis down with BtB. (Its still worth having to try and get out Lyrists or Rangers between the vise of Keg+BtB, but dont count on Genesis superstarring like it would against non-BtB control).  And, against Keeper your matchup is already pretty favorable, Genesis wouldnt really help more than one game in ten from my experience.  So its not good enough to maindeck.  Sideboard yes, maindeck no.

On the opposite set of matchups, I dont get adding Bottle Gnomes and taking out Masticores.  Masticore is still a 4/4 beating machine who is a threat in any matchup, where as Gnomes are cool sideboard tech against Aggro.  The thing is, that Masticore is the sort of thing that makes an Aggro deck *concede* on the spot, but Gnomes are just a useful tool in a tight game.  So why play Gnomes maindeck?

I like the fact that people are thinking about how to make the deck better and all, but, please, play the thing in a tournament before you go change 10 cards based on theory.  The deck has been evolving for a while; many strong players have already given it a spin.  Its not a deck that needs a lot of tuning right now.

[BigChuck]

Now I don't have much experience with this deck, but with all the one ofs, and such, has anyone tried a living wish in one of there spaces? It may work better then packing one of's which are dead in some matches.

[Thug]

Quote I like the fact that people are thinking about how to make the deck better and all, but, please, play the thing in a tournament before you go change 10 cards based on theory.  The deck has been evolving for a while; many strong players have already given it a spin.  Its not a deck that needs a lot of tuning right now.

Uhum, sorry, but what improves a deck in testing? Trying a lot of different cards and build off course.
It's a very good thing that multiple people are creating cind of their "own" build. After people with other decklist get some results you cant draw any conclusions yet.

And genesis is a game winner, I can't believe you want to cut (or don't add) this.

Koen

[cooberp]

Fishhead--That Keeper deck sure *is* great in that there is no standard (i.e., 4-POP Sligh counts, FUB does not) deck that beats it *more* than half the time.  That's why we have an unbalanced metagame.  I reiterate: all these Keeper is dead/Keeper is tier two/Keeper can't keep up with metagame aggro people are NOT playing against the Keeper players at Neutral Ground.  Few decks are as dependent on their pilots as Keeper--when I talk about the deck, it is true that I am talking about it at its best rather than as played by the majority of Keeper players in the country/world.  It's great that you're taking 3/5 or 2/3 from Keeper, but rather than write off the matchup as favorable it's only in your interest to get better information and see how you do against the best Keeper players.  Appr is dumb and you can't exactly trust its playtesting results, but try playing D'Avanzo a match or fifty on Apprentice and see if you can take more than half.
Perhaps the reason why Genesis has helped me more than you is that I'm dueling with players who can laugh off first-turn 5/3's and 4/4's and always have the D-Blow, and so a card that really makes the difference for me might seem overkill for you.
Masticore is not a great card in this deck.  Without Squee, its upkeep is fine for a turn or two and killer for the five it takes to kill, and especially versions that aren't running QR/Bird don't actually consistently have enough mana to use it, especially if you want to be casting things as well.  That said, you should still run one.  Bottle Gnomes is there for Life Gain, which is an all-purpose need especially against Burn.  If you shoot Sligh's creatures they will throw their burn at your head and just Price you out.
I don't believe the RGU version is optimal at all.  It's just so damn inconsistent and vulnerable.  I've been doing a TON of testing to find something that doesn't suck when it doesn't draw Workshop Mox Guy and isn't so vulnerable to color screw and nonbasic hate.  I've found a configuration that I feel basically accomplishes those goals.  I *will* take it to a tourney as soon as I can put it together IRL, and then I will post a report and say how it did and what I've learned.
BigChuck--I am very opposed to Living Wish in this deck.  The point of Survival is to have everything in the deck at your disposal--running Wish makes all those guys inaccessible.

[Thug]

Off Topic:

I saw you bidding on a workshop lately Cooberp . Its a shame all those auctions end when I am taking my well deserved nap.

On Topic:

I totally agree on the things Cooberp said, aside from the statement that G/R/U is inconstant as $#". I've been very busy trying to fix the manabase and I feel thats its running quite good now.
Oh one thing, wonder isnt just for moat, Wonder does so much more. With wonder you are able to block about every creature and fly over defenders. Not to mention that you army can easily hold of Morphling with a wonder.

Koen