Breaking down the artifact invasion.

[Fishhead]

Quote I was curious as to what everyone thought of having blue and the mana base in TnT.

I like it quite a bit.  Wonder is important in certain matchups, but also you get access to Ancestral, Tinker and Time Walk by splashing blue.  

I'm not sure how much more solid your manabase is if you dont splash; you are going to have 4 Workshops bending your mana whatever you try - I dont think I've seen a pure RG Tubbies that ran more than basic 3 Forests.  So you arent going to be able to duck BtB by going RG.

If you're worried about consistency (drawing the right colored mana), it is a problem from time to time.  But with 4 Land Grants, you essentially have up to 8 Tropicals or 8 Tiagas.  One thing about the blue splash; the blue isnt required to make the deck run.  Given that, I'm not sure that you can make a better non-blue mana configuration - using Karplusans messes up the Land Grants.  

The Land Grants seem fine, though using CoBs should open up better sideboard possibilities; at the cost of consistency.  I was thinking of going to 3 Grants+1 Forest; I notice BeBe dropped a Wasteland for his basic Forest.  I like having lots of Wastelands since I am the aggro deck, but I can see this being a good call in some metagames.

[jpmeyer]

I don't have a sideboard, but the German version runs multiple Artifact Mutations in the sideboard.  Those are primarily for the mirror, but in a pinch they can kill a Rod/Keg/Disk.

If you want to beat up Suicide more, SB an FTK.

[bebe]

I tried Mutations but found the Monkeys more reliable as I can pull them from the deck with a Survival. I might go back to them but I really like the Uktabis. I also had FTK but I am testing a Miner in its place (also good in the mirror) and rely on Composts to beat Sui.

[-CF-]

Some points:
Powder Keg is good against Mask - you set it to 1 counter and voila, it will destroy a Dreadnought no matter what.

The B/W/U deck what won at Origins is Smmenen's friend I believe, who splashes blue for Ancestral and Walk and white for a Seal of Cleansing. Mine splashes only blue and I have recoil instead of seal - both do much of the same though. The remaining list is -very- close to my current ToC list (we have both tested the deck alot and reached very similar conclusions, in other words).

Saying that the deck concept is an early game only deck is UTTER and COMPLETE bullshit. You have the possibility to adapt to your opening hand/the deck you are facing. Against sligh, a fast Dreadnought is imperative. My deck has more search than the Paragon list, Mishra's for defence instead of mana sources like Vault and Crypt (they shouldn't make much of a difference. If you have a hand with several mana sources and both Mask and Dreadnought you are good anyway.) The same goes for stompy. Mine has more threats against control, but doesn't have the same propability of the very likely "fast mana + unmask + black card + combo"-start (better hope the opponent doesn't have Misdirection). I currently do very well against control though - as this deck is completely anti-control in every way regardless which version you are using. I haven't played much against combo, but am 1-1 with Koen during the ToCs. Stacker is a tough matchup, as they have a higher probability of a fast threat than you do AND can completely destroy you with Welder. After SB, it's more even though. The Tangle Wire Stacker is bad news both before and after SB.

Unpowered Mask with Crypt, Vault and Petal instead of Moxen fares well against my powered Keeper (I have both decks assembled and play them against each other all the time).

BTW, I beat Parfait 4-0 with Mask recently (thanks in large part to the Apprentice shuffler - but I think you can easily out-strategy Parfait by waiting for Necro and then explode). )

[Vegeta2711]

"Saying that the deck concept is an early game only deck is UTTER and COMPLETE bullshit. "

Then WTF do you call it? If I shove Mishra's and Hyppies into a deck it does not magically become a mid game deck. It may have a few limited after early game options. But, not many... unless you plan on sitting there for a long while against control and you let him build an awesome hand while your trying to TD into a decent hand.

"You have the possibility to adapt to your opening hand/the deck you are facing."

Yeah... so basically your saying if I can't shove out a mask I wait until I can.... damn logic there. Who would've thought of that?

[-CF-]

It's not the Mishras or Hyppies that give the deck a midgame, it's the huge amount of search, low amount of card disadvantage and the couple of "answer cards". That's all you need. While midgame isn't something you're hoping to reach, it's surely not a good idea to concede if you haven't won already by turn 4 - like some of you seem to be saying.

When you have played some hundred games with the deck, perhaps you'll see it for what's it's worth. I can't help but think that you're not there yet.

[Izihobip, Harbinger of Do]

(TNT)

I have been playing Karn, Silver Golem over Gorilla Shaman. He is a more unwieldy to cast, but he is a great chump-blocker and is perfectly Weld-able.
Remember: Karn + Masticore = Gorilla Shaman.
I have also had the occasion to sneak in extra points of damage via a animated Sol Ring and Memory Jar .

I only own one Mox, so I use 3 Phyrexian Furnace to make up for the lack of artifacts. They're cheap, weldable, cycle in a pinch, and weaken any sort of recursion as a fringe benefit. I highly recommend using them if you're short on power.

For anybody who hasn't played with or against this deck yet, Anger is absolutely insane.

[Shaman]

Hi guys.
My post simply wants to be a question to all of you playing TnT. Is LoA necessary? I mean: every time I had it in play I have NEVER used it, simply because I have NEVER had 7 cards in hand. I suppose you can have a full hand after a Memory Jar, but it doesn't happen so often. Probably the problem about Library relies a little on your style of play (I prefer to cast my creatures soon, not keeping them in my hand, and then eventually take them back using Genesis if a Balance resolves), but the 4th Wasteland in the place of the single LoA is, IMHO, a more reliable choice, no matter what your metagame is.

Moreover: Genesis >>>> Regrowth. You can run them both, but you can't run only regrowth and then claim your TnT to be the almost-perfect build. It is far from being perfect. Genesis allows you to win game against Control expecially, but it rocks against any archetype I guess.

These are my two cents.

---Shaman---

[cooberp]

Library should not be in the deck.  This is what I'm running in the maindeck, but it's a very preliminary version.  There may be a place for Wishes here (I don't like Living because then you can't survival for utility dudes, but Burning might be appropriate).
In *very* preliminary testing, I've found the deck is very resilient and strong against Keeper, able to come back from multiple board-sweeping Balances, and win even against a Morphling.  It 0wns mono-black.  I haven't tested against Stompy or Academy.  It can get Priced out by Sligh--any ideas as to how to improve this matchup?  Of course you own anything on the ground, but it's tough to race them if they throw everything at your head.
The mana I'm not sure about.  Grants are very nice and give you more room/flexibility and thin your deck, but it does occasionally get color screwed, and it can need a good amount of G once Survival gets going.  I don't know if you could fit in Cities, but methinx it would be beneficial for the deck if you could.  The deck already gets mana flooded with more mana than even Keeper--anyone have any ideas how to trim the mana base?

Fat Guys (10)
4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
1 Masticore
1 Triskelion

Utility Guys (12)
4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Dwarven Miner
1 Anger
1 Wonder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

Search, Draw, and Utility (8)
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar

Mana (30) <gulp>
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Tropical Island
4 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

[Shaman]

cooperb: the decklist I have been playing with for a couple of weeks now (only online games in apprentice although) is identical to yours except for this little, but significant, variation:

-1 Miner +1 Triskelion

I found out that Triskelion is my primary win condition, expecially if the game goes into a trouble for me. It's a critters-killer and, moreover, you can ABUSE of it with Welders. So why do not you play with two? I am not saying Miner isn't great, since I do want to try to fit it in someway, but IMO the Trisk Bros should be left maindeck.

[cooberp]

The way I see it, you're a Survival deck.  There's no reason to play multiple copies of cards you can tutor for and endlessly recur.

I am very excited at how good this archetype seems to be.  But it definitely has problems and I don't think the current lists are close to optimal.  What I'd like to find are:

1. A more consistent way to find and/or recur Survival itself.
2. More color consistency, and a Survivalable mana fixer.
3. Protection from getting burned out.
4. The deck is half mana--cut back on the mana flood factor if possible.
5. Another fat dude or two would be good.

I think Quirion Ranger is excellent for this deck.  It protects you from Wastelands, strengthens your guys in creature combat, fixes all missed land drops, and can savagely punish opponents who play Balance and don't want an Armageddon. Its combo with Birds is too good to ignore as well in a deck that likes lots of fast mana.  Thoughts on this version?  If you were going to play Burning Wish, what would you cut and what would you board?
I decided against Miner because he just never seemed to work.

Survival Tubbies

Out like a fat kid in dodgeball (12):
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Su-Chi
        1 Triskelion
        1 Masticore
        1 Karn, Silver Golem
        1 Genesis

Wimps (10):
        4 Goblin Welder
        1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Anger
        1 Elvish Lyrist
        1 Quirion Ranger
        1 Birds of Paradise
        1 Wonder

Goodies (8):
        4 Survival of the Fittest
        1 Memory Jar
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Tinker

Mana (30):
        4 Wasteland
        4 Taiga
        4 Tropical Island
        4 Land Grant
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Strip Mine\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

I don't think this is a Survival based deck though. The original Survival decks were very control oriented. This is more like smashing face and having a one sided way to keep dropping threats. That said, I wouldn't mind having a extra way to recur it. Other than Regrowth (which I do run in my deck) pickings are slim though....

Quirion Ranger actually seems pretty good since it clears up almost any color problems and is wasteland protection, Birds should stay in T2. They just seem to be another needless mana addition. The main problem I have is with these cards as 1 of's which means your hoping to survival them out. Wastes usually do their damage before that happens. I still would run Ranger, I just can't see running Birds espically with 30 mana sources already in the deck.

What does everyone think of the draw-7's in the deck? They would refill the hand very quickly and if your mana flooded you can easily dump your entire hand on the table in a turn or two. Just a thought.

To avoid getting burned out I would suggest running some Zuran Orb's or even Rejuvanation Chambers. Unless you splashed white in which case you get all the anti red stuff. Sanctimony, Samite Minstration, etc etc.

Another guy would be that Trisk you cut, another core or something.

I still agree with Goldfish in that Survival is usually all you need for dropping threat after threat and maybe Genesis should be a SB slot. If I could get survival into play against control there are very few games I lost, let alone that Genesis would've made a difference in.

On the whole manabase issue I've modified mine slightly. Here's my version of the deck. (Quirion seems like it would be really useful so I just added it.)

//NAME: Downfall
// Mana
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        3 Land Grant
        4 Taiga
        2 Tropical Island
        3 City of Brass
        2 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Sol Ring
// Artifact
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Su-Chi
        2 Triskelion
        1 Masticore
        1 Karn, Silver Golem
        1 Memory Jar
// Green
        1 Regrowth
        1 Uktabi Orangutan
        1 Elvish Lyrist
        1 Quirion Ranger
        4 Survival of the Fittest
// Red
        4 Goblin Welder
        1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Gorilla Shaman
        1 Anger
        1 Dwarven Miner
// Blue
        1 Tinker
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk

I felt the my combantion worked out slightly better than the original 4 trop, taiga, LG formation. Though I will need to see through a lot more games. Also I can use less blue, because I don't run Wonder. I personally don't see enough Moat's or Mirror Matches to warrant one. Also my mana base has been cut down to 28.

[cooberp]

Despite being an artifact deck, I find it often very hungry for colored mana.  Quirion Ranger/BoP is + 3 mana of any color each turn.  The deck is base green so a lot of times you have green for Survival but need red for other stuff.
I definitely think a Wheel would be good in this deck.  Not Twister as it screws over a lot of your graveyard abuse.
If you're going to run QR you need to maximize the amount of Forests, making Cities still less workable, unfortunately.  I really want to just go R/G to trim the mana base, as Ancestral Walk Tinker and Wonder are nice but nothing more, but I can't quite see how it would help things too much.
No point in running Karn AND Monkey.  Pick one.
I really think Genesis is critical in beating control\n\n

[Fishhead]

Quote To avoid getting burned out I would suggest running some Zuran Orb's or even Rejuvanation Chambers.

If only there was an artifact creature that you could sac for life.  It would be best if he cost 3 so you could cast him directly off a Workshop.  

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Fishhead @ Aug. 22 2002,20:33)If only there was an artifact creature that you could sac for life.  It would be best if he cost 3 so you could cast him directly off a Workshop.  

And had a P/T of 1/3 so that he could block and kill Pups  

[cooberp]

You guys are all going to laugh at me, but I am testing Spike Feeder.  I know you all are going to think this build sucks, but please tell me why.  It gives up random blue utility for focused utility.

Phat Beats

Out like a fat kid in dodgeball (14)
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Su-Chi
        2 Triskelion
        1 Phyrexian Colossus
        1 Genesis
        1 Masticore
        1 Karn, Silver Golem

Wimps (11)
        4 Goblin Welder
        1 Spike Feeder
        1 Dwarven Miner
        1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Anger
        1 Elvish Lyrist
        1 Quirion Ranger
        1 Uktabi Orangutan

Goodies (6)
        4 Survival of the Fittest
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Memory Jar

Mana (29)
        4 Wasteland
        4 Taiga
        4 Forest
        4 Land Grant
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Strip Mine

[micfarm]

You really need the blue because of WONDER and less for the recall,tinker . With wonder you have solution vs Moat, the grow player watch your chis & juggers to fly over their werebears,dryads etc.
The uktabi is a solution vs Mask deck Don't understimate it (with an uktabi and an active welder  you have almost win this game) I can't see the importance of Karn in this deck. Instead of it I will suggest 1 Living Wish. You can fetch the creature that you want from sb or Volcanic Mountain (anger,wonder).
For the sb I use Llawan,the Empress over the miner ( not convinced about his value in this deck) and a total of 5 cards dedicated vs BtB,BloodMoon(combination of Lyrist,Emerald Charm, RedBlasts). 2-3 tormont 's crypt vs combo decks (twister based,dragon) 3-4 artifact mutation (over kill switch, heretic) for the mirror mostly,  2 compost, Flametongue.
( I don't face it often sligh in my environemt)
IF I am using Living Wish -2 mutation,-1 charm or blast
+ tropical, miner ( or avalanche), bottle gnomes.

[Fishhead]

Quote You guys are all going to laugh at me, but I am testing Spike Feeder.

I was considering putting a Weaver in (after a harsh game against Mask-Naught).  The problem is that you dont have much way to recurse this stuff unless you can get Genesis going.  In that case, Weaver becomes GGG4 and Feeder is a similarly large GGG3.  So, is one use enough?  I thought it was marginal.

It seems that the mysterious 3CC artifact creature is a better bet than the Feeder, due to the synergy with Workshop.  He did save my life in the tourney tonite, he and a Q-Ranger held off 3 Cadets and a Pup with me at 5.

-edit-
How is the matchup v. Gro?  I seem to do very well against it; perhaps because TnT has nothing to Mis-D and it also runs 3+1 Strip Mines.  I beat a Miracle-Gro in the finals by Wasting his first two land today; I've beaten them before without much hassle.  Maybe I've just been lucky.

OTOH, I did get a chance to test Chapin-Gro against MonoB and was very happy with the new Moxy manabase.  Our games werent stellar; he was tight on black mana the first and flooded in the third.  I misvalued some of my cards and therefore misplayed the second game. So, it wasnt conclusive, but at least I didnt get that icky "Waste your Tropical" "Brainstorm in response. Hmmm.  Draw.  Hmmm.  Go." feeling that I got playing the older versions.

[cooberp]

Micfarm--You have a solution against Moat.  It's called Elvish Lyrist.
Fishhead--said 3cc being War Beats?
Are there any good Madness cards this could use?  Arrogant Wurm?\n\n

[Gothmog]

The 3cc artifact creature being referred to is:

Bottle Gnomes
3, Artifact Creature 1/3, Tempest Uncommon
Sacrifice Bottle Gnomes: Gain 3 life.
“I am reminded of the fable of the silver egg. Its owner cracks it open to see what jewels it holds, only to discover a simple yellow yolk.”
—Karn, silver golem
Illus. Kaja Foglio

[cooberp]

How perfect.  Way better than Feeder.  It's in as a one-of.

Latest version:

        1 Bottle Gnomes
        1 Phyrexian Colossus
        3 Winter Orb
        1 Triskelion
        4 Survival of the Fittest
        1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Anger
        1 Genesis
        1 Elvish Lyrist
        1 Masticore
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Su-Chi
        4 Goblin Welder
        1 Memory Jar
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        4 Taiga
        1 Quirion Ranger
        1 Birds of Paradise
        3 Forest
        4 Land Grant
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Karn, Silver Golem
        1 Wheel of Fortune

[Lord of the Goats]

has anyone tried compultion? i'm currently trying 2 md and i've liked them a lot. they pitch early trisks, incarnations, dead wastes, and are just generally give consistancy. the artifacts are coming back anyway, you can abuse it with squee, it has goos synergy with land grants, and at worst they cycle.

i certianly think that it could be worth it in certian versions.... especially ones with genesis and phyrexian colosus which can both get stuck in your hand early. survival also tends to mana flood you so the compultion helps in that respect too.

granted. like a lot of you i'm still in perliminary testing and the fact that compultion isn't a threat could be bad.... on the other hand it does suit my personal playing style.

[Gothmog]

Lord Goats, you're awesome, that's a fabulous idea.

I've been playing with a Ur Artifact Beatdown deck (so no Survival), and Compulsion is the right answer to a lot of my issues.  Its not as good as Survival, but its close and its Blue!

Off to tune my deck...

[cooberp]

Shane Stoots played a Compulsion in Funker.  I think it's gratuitous when you have Survival, but is solid (not great) in a mana flooded deck that doesn't have that kind of tutoring power.

[Thug]

Wow,

I have seen some very interesting ideas on this board for TNT.
This is my current version:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Su-Chi
4 Juggernaut
1 Masticore
1 Triskelion
1 Memory Jar

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Squee
1 Wonder
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Uktabi Orangutan (after running into a cursed totem, he's back maindeck)

1 Ancestrall Recal
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Regrowth

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Grim Monolith

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Land Grant
4 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolerian Academy


Some thing I have been thinking of:

- Going down to 3 Mishra's Workshops
- Cutting Masticore (I founded Triskelion superior)
- Adding a single Mountain (After losing all my 4 taigas in one game)
- Adding Wood Elves (to fetch the dual for your incarnations or fix your mana problems.)

What im gonna try now:

-1 Workshop +1 Mountain
-1 Masticore +1 Quirion Ranger
+1 Birds of Paradise

Yes your right 62 cards now :S

Thnx for the idea's people, keep the topic going!

Koen


Edit: 4th workshop in again, away with the mountain. Im gonne see if birds and ranger can fix the mana base  

[riverboa11]

Here's a 4 color Workshop deck that my Deck Building Group was toying around with.

//NAME: Neo-PPOP
//Designed by:  PIE
        2 Underground Sea
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Grim Monolith
        2 Gemstone Mine
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Badlands
        4 Volcanic Island
        4 City of Brass
        4 Su-Chi
        4 Juggernaut
        1 Flowstone Sculpture
        1 Karn, Silver Golem
        1 Masticore
        4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
        4 Illusionary Mask
        1 Berserk
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Regrowth
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Memory Jar
        4 Goblin Welder
        1 Tinker
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Timetwister
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall

I know that the merging of the two archtype is frowned upon, but it is just an experimentation, just to see how it does.  As you have probably guessed it can be downright explosive some games (2nd turn Berserked Dreadnought anyone? ) and others it is just poo.  The mana base is really ugly, too, but I think that is true for all of these decks  (besides mono-Black mask).  I haven't tested it enough to get legit results, but as soon as I do, I'll share them.

[cooberp]

Koen--glad to see you're testing my tech.
I have found that this deck just doesn't want to go turn one guy turn two Wasteland.  It wants to go turn one guy turn two drop Survival turn three do lots of shit.  Even though it's an aggro deck, I really have not been happy to see Wastelands.  And I have been caught with an Anger in the graveyard with Taigas Wasted and no way to find them and the deck's mana still isn't ideal even though Queer/Bird improves it *a lot*.  So I'm testing Yavimaya Elder and a basic Mountain in the slots of 2 Wastelands, adding a threat and trimming the mana base in the process.  

I have been very disappointed in the Masticore as well; Triskelion seems *far* superior.  But I'm not ready to cut it yet as I believe part of its failure is my weakness at knowing how to play it.

Still can't decide between Monkey/Karn.

Latest list:

Phat Beats (60)

Wimps (13)
        4 Goblin Welder
        1 Bottle Gnomes
        1 Uktabi Orangutan
        1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Anger
        1 Elvish Lyrist
        1 Yavimaya Elder
        1 Quirion Ranger
        1 Birds of Paradise
        1 Gorilla Shaman

Out like a fat kid in dodgeball (12)
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Su-Chi
        1 Phyrexian Colossus
        1 Triskelion
        1 Masticore
        1 Genesis

Bitches Aint Shit but Hoes and Tricks (8)
        4 Survival of the Fittest
        2 Winter Orb
        1 Memory Jar
        1 Wheel of Fortune

Mana from Heaven (27)
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Taiga
        4 Land Grant
        3 Forest
        2 Wasteland
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)*--just came up with this off the top of my head
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Choke
2 City of Solitude
2 Emerald Charm
2 Seedtime
1 Dwarven Miner
1 Flametongue Kavu\n\n

[Gothmog]

You guys are missing the boat not playing Tangle Wire.  Its so good in these decks that play out tons of permanents and big creatures to beat with.  At least consider it in your decks.

I'd easily play it over Winter Orb, its very much like Armageddon, in that if you get a slight lead in a game it removes almost any possibility of a comeback.

Also, I played about 30 unsideboarded games this weekend with Compulsion, and its pretty strong.  I know Survival is great, but playing Ur with Compulsion instead seems to work pretty well and I get to play Power and Blood Moon in the Side.

[Thug]

Seems like we think in the same way Cooberp  
Maybe it's because I have been playing enchantress for the last year  

I made some new changes too
New decklist:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Su-Chi
4 Juggernaut
1 Triskelion
1 Memory Jar

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Squee
1 Wonder
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Uktabi Orangutan

1 Ancestrall Recal
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Regrowth

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Grim Monolith

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Land Grant
4 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
3 Forest
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 City of Brass

SB:

2 Elvish Lyrist
1 Emerald Charm
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Scavanger Folk
1 Flametonque Kavu
1 Llawan
1 Bottle Gnomes
2 Ligtning Bolt
2 Compost
3 REB


Some explanations:

- I cutted birds again, didnt really need it (but I really like the Quirion Ranger)
- Cutted another wasteland for a City of brass. I found myself too often with land grant + an unuseful wasteland or workshop in my hand.
- Two ligtning bolts in the sideboard since I got some problems with Suicide. Didnt test this "tech" yet.
- Almost cutted Grim Monolith since its very weak with Survival of the fittest. But I didnt want less artifacts so it stays.


Yavimaya might be the tech against Blood Moon/B2B, nice one
 

Koen

[Justin]

Great discussion. I was just wondering why use a masticore & a triskelion rather than one triskelion. all the other "answer" cards are 1 of's. i would htink triskelion would clear the board of weenies quicker since you dont have to pay to use the ping. also, why play both the orangutang and shaman? is it the concensus that shaman is better in this deck than karn?please enlighten me, and thanks for the great discussion so far -Justin