Enchantress Onslaught changes

[spin13]

Rogue, not only did you leave out LoA, but you forgot to list 6 cards (namely, Moat, The Abyss, Pariah, Worship, and a number of the more anti-aggro measures).  While most of us know what the remaining cards are, since you do talk primarily about the aggro matchup, I'd suggest editing and fixing that list.

That being said, I'd be interested in knowing if Words of Waste is still a viable maindeck answer considering the true Sylvan interaction has been brought to light.  I'd still think so, for the very reasons that Coob and I discussed when thinking of whether it should be tested main: on its own, its still turning every card you draw into a pseudo-Duress.  Considering the abundance of card drawing in the deck, its very easy to bust through a counterwall with this card in play, even if you don't have Sylvan, in particular, in play. Against Mono-U it empties out hte counters, against Keeper it might be capable of forcing cards like Will or Balance that just sit in the hand for a while to either be cast, protected by other cards in hand, or discarded.  The flip side is, if its not even perfect with Sylvan, is it really worth it?

As for cutting Ancestral, I think its more a question of fitting in extra enchantments than mana of why you would cut it.  As of current, I don't think that really needs to happen, although a few more sets like Onslaught for Enchantress and it might be a possibility.  Running 1 Tundra doesn't seem to mess the mana-base and with mutliple Heaths, it works perfectly.

Also, thats an interesting thing about Heath & co. against Wasteland and such.  It means one extra turn of mana, which can often be the difference between an Abyss or Moat or something (plus they search out the correct color, etc) and may be a possibility for other control decks.  I doubt these other control decks will be Keeper or OSE, but perhaps with the new influx of cards (Cunning, search-lands, and more) something new can be created.  When looked at from these new perspectives these lands seem to be fairly good at ensuring you don't lose turn advantage.

 -Eric

[cooberp]

Wait--we're now agreed that Sylvan/WoW doesn't work?  My ass it doesn't.
Anything that involves replacement-draw effects works with Sylvan.  If you don't draw the cards, you don't pay the life.  It's that simple.  Abundance reads, "If you would draw a card, you may instead..."  So does Pursuit.  WoW reads, "The next time you would draw a card, all opponents...instead."
It's the same wording.  End of story...

[j_orlove]

Quote That being said, I'd be interested in knowing if Words of Waste is still a viable maindeck answer considering the true Sylvan interaction has been brought to light.

Quote Wait--we're now agreed that Sylvan/WoW doesn't work?  

It does. You just need to pay life if you want to keep any cards. see the thread in the rules mill.

Basically, you need to skip your regular draw and sylvan draws for maximum efficiency with words. That's not too bad, since you only need to do it once or twice to mindtwist them.

It's definitely one of the strongest enchantments in the deck.


It's interesting that sligh is a problem. Does flaring pain stop worship? Because if it does, then you may want aegis of honor in the SB too.

[cooberp]

So as long as you do it for 3, you don't pay life, but if you want to do it for 2, then you have to pay life?
Flaring Pain does not stop Worship; Worship does not prevent damage but creates a replacement effect: damage that would reduce you to less than 1 life reduces you to 1 life instead.

[Radjammin]

cooberp,

 Once again, yes it is important to understand the actually oracle wording of cards but you also must understand how replacement effects work.  I believe my last posting on both Abundance and Pursuit are compuletely self explaining.  I explain why both of these effect work specifically.

If you would like to focus on card wordings then focus on what j_orlove brought up that helped me understand the one part I was missing about how much life you need to pay to keep cards.
 The last part of Sylvan states:

Quote
If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library. [Oracle 2000/02/01]

Ok so now when all is said and done and the sylvan is getting ready to finish it's resolution just:
1.Look at your hand
2.Have you "Drawn" and of thouse cards this turn?
3.For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.

Abundance is "Placed into hand", not drawn.
Placing coutners onto Pursuit doesn't involve you drawning any cards.  The good player also replaces the draw phase card to the pursuit, or you would have to do step #3 for it.


I personally still think Words of Waste is a good card, for it's interaction with all the Enchantress cards and Sylvan.
It can even cause a soft lock if you have a library in play.
Force a discard during the draw phase.

Also I have allways thought active cards were better then constant effect cards, except maybe the winter orb effect cards.  I just don't know if City of Solitude is better then Words of Waste at control.  THe only thing that might swing me is Replenish.  But against keeper, the City only effects 8 cards Keeper has effectively.  Where words of waste effects any card in hand.  I personally think they might have dumbed down WoW by adding the mana cost to a point when it is just a bad card but It might still be good.

Lets here it for the Design Team for Homelands:2  Keep shovel us that shit tell we like it!!!  I can't believe you guys are getting hyped up about this set.  The only thing, and I mean the only thing they are getting right is to make Good Faties that can actually be played.  

I deleted the rest as it really wasn't on topic

Hey Levit, I already said the thing about Pay 1 to force you to discard.  Just refer back to my older postings.

One really good thing to bring up in WoW favor though is the focus on Card drawing.  We all agree that card drawing is the most important thing in Magic.  So I would assume any card that can convert a decks main theme into a sub theme is good.  The words allow you to make your entire deck card drawing and then take your existing engine and do other things abusive.

[leviat]

Edit: <Removed some text that was no longer relavant>

I personally feel that Words of Waste will become a neccessity in Enchantress. It DOES work with Sylvan (as long as you replace ALL drawn cards).

This will give Enchantress the denial power it needs to give it time to get rolling. Plus, as Radjammin pointed out, it's soft-lock with LoA just gives it another bonus.

Plus, with the Enchantress('s Presence), you could even look at it this way...

Words of Waste
Enchantment
Whenever you play an enchantment, you may pay 1, if you do, opponent discards a card.

It's just too powerful to NOT consider it maindeck. I would personally place it in the Mind Twist slot

[cooberp]

That's exactly what I've done.  It hardly matters that you have to do it for 3 or pay life.
What about if there are two Sylvans?

[leviat]

Seeing that Enchantress seems to be focussing more on the Sylvan drawing engine, would it make more sense to play with Words of Wilding over Sacred Mesa? (And instead maybe SB the Sacred Mesas?)

Pro
1) No upkeep.
2) 2/2 for 1, rather than 1/1 for 1W
3) It's green rather than white. (Better matchup against sligh?)

Con
1) The 2/2 Bears don't fly.
2) It's not as explosive.
3) Give up a draw.
4) Cannot be done at instant speed (sans LoA or popping a PoK).

Now that I'm looking at the Pro's and Con's, this doesn't seem like such a good idea anymore, but once you have lockdown and say, two Sylvan Librarys out. You can make 5 2/2's a turn for just 5 colorless mana. (Not including using a PoK).

[j_orlove]

Quote That's exactly what I've done.  It hardly matters that you have to do it for 3 or pay life.
What about if there are two Sylvans?

Pay 5 for 5 discards

Once again, each drawn card will cost you 4 life, since (in order of resolution) you:

1. draw normally (can replace w/words)
2. use sylvan #1 (can replace)
3. use sylvan #2 (can replace)
So you can draw and use the sylvans normally, but if you want to use words you will draw <=4 cards, and the 2 sylvans will force you to put them all back, or pay life.

Quote Seeing that Enchantress seems to be focussing more on the Sylvan drawing engine, would it make more sense to play with Words of Wilding over Sacred Mesa? (And instead maybe SB the Sacred Mesas?)

Pro
1) No upkeep.
2) 2/2 for 1, rather than 1/1 for 1W
3) It's green rather than white. (Better matchup against sligh?)

Con
1) The 2/2 Bears don't fly.
2) It's not as explosive.
3) Give up a draw.
4) Cannot be done at instant speed (sans LoA or popping a PoK).

Now that I'm looking at the Pro's and Con's, this doesn't seem like such a good idea anymore, but once you have lockdown and say, two Sylvan Librarys out. You can make 5 2/2's a turn for just 5 colorless mana. (Not including using a PoK).

Yeah, the other words are bad since you can gain life/make tokens/etc. without giving up draws. So why would you want to do the same thing at the cost of several cards?


Oh, and incidentally, if these were free there would be all kinds of (infinite) combos with the green, blue and possibly white ones as well. As it is, you can't generate, say, infinite bear tokens with intruder alarm and archivist (there are better ways to do it, but that's just a silly example). We all know that type 2 can't have infinite combos.

[cooberp]

I have been losing a bunch of games where I have complete control, 10 enchantments including Mesa on board, but have not had enough mana to defend against a Morphling or two because Sanctum has been Wasted.  Late game, you *really* need Sanctum on board.  2 Sanctums would be bad tho.  I think the deck really needs Regrowth back.  But there's no room mainboard and you certainly can't cut an enchantment...
Should we go to 61 cards?  Thoughts.

[cooberp]

Also, I realized that Enchantress does far better against aggro decks than I have been saying it has because I have only been talking about game one.  After sideboarding, all Sligh can bring in is Dwarven Miners (you have Karmic Justice) and Suicide has is Dystopia (you have Aura Fracture).  Both of those matchups become *very* favorable after boarding.  I am testing Samite Ministrations vs. Price of Progress, which is the only weapon in Sligh's arsenal that can take out Enchantress.

My current sideboard:
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Powder Keg
2 Choke
2 Samite Ministration
2 CoP: Red
2 Femeref Enchantress
1 Karmic Justice
1 Aura Fracture
1 City of Solitude

EDIT: I'm testing Regrowth as card #61.  We'll see if I get mana hosed.

[Nimrod]

Quote (cooberp @ Sep. 28 2002,10:19)I have been losing a bunch of games where I have complete control, 10 enchantments including Mesa on board, but have not had enough mana to defend against a Morphling or two because Sanctum has been Wasted.  Late game, you *really* need Sanctum on board.  2 Sanctums would be bad tho.  I think the deck really needs Regrowth back.  But there's no room mainboard and you certainly can't cut an enchantment...
Should we go to 61 cards?  Thoughts.

Though I hated it in oath (and Zherbus eventually did too), maybe  Holistic Wisdom could work here, I havent tried enchantress ever, though I have been wanting to, but maybe you could change Wisdom for another enchantment, thus keeping the same enchantment number, but, since I havent played Enchantress yet I dont know what would get out.

[cooberp]

The card type would be enchantment, and the last thing Enchantress wants to do is remove enchantments from the game.

[Peztacular]

I think going to 61 cards would not be a good thing.  61 with regowth may be better then 60 without, but I suspect the deck will not be optimal.

Sorry if this is redundant, but is there a reason your prefer Regrowth to Holistic Wisdom?  Regroth is cheaper obviously, but its probably not something your going to be using early.  Holistic is something you can tutor for, draws you cards, and can be reused.  Is there something I'm missing?

If the primary reason to add regrowth to the deck (again) is for Sanctum, then doesn't Holsitic do the job just as well.  Regrowth obviously fetches your Argothians back, but thats not as necessary now that the Prescence is in the deck.

[cooberp]

That's interesting.  I've always ruled out Holistic Wisdom because you just don't want to be removing enchantments from the game.  But what about the ability to recur Sanctum, Strips, and trade Duresses for Replenishes?  Hm.
I still think it will be bad.  But I'll test it.

[Matt The Great]

And remember that you can always pitch your aggro-enchantments for countered control ones (Abyss for Sylvan when playing against Keeper, for example).

[ZoneSeek]

Holistic Wisdom is an interesting idea. I certainly wouldn't mind removing my game 1 useless hate from the game to recur a useful enchantment. Another viable threat against control. I would certainly like to recur a Pariah by pitching City of Solitude (still in my maindeck) against aggro; the reverse against control.

How's testing coming? I unfortunately have noone to play with at school, so the moxes I got over the summer are gaining dust :-/

Anyway, I'm getting OT. I think the Regrowth effect is more important that I had certainly ever imagined... although sometimes I stare at it and wish it were something more powerful. 'twould be nice if the deck had more instants so we could heavily abuse Mr. Blue.  

Samite Ministration is ...... interesting. I can't really say I agree with it's position in the deck. Then again, I'm not a fan of boarding cards in just because of one card. The prospect of swinging your life total 20+ in an instant is nice though.  It's certainly enough time to gain control with a more permanent answer.

[cooberp]

I'll test HW as card no. 61 (enchantment no. 20) and get back to everyone.

Basically, the thinking is, Enchantress pulls better than 40% but not quite 50/50 against Sligh and Sui game one.  How many sideboard slots do we have to devote to win 75% post board?  I haven't lost a post sideboard game yet against either deck (with about 10 post board games played so far online) with this sideboard, and can still bring in everything I want (2 Choke, 2 Fem, 1 CoS) against control.

The problem with Sligh is that you can Keg away their guys and drop Moat and CoP: Red, but they topdeck burn as consistently as you topdeck mana (and they can kill off your early mana).  I've played the waiting game vs. Kaplan when I drop CoP and he plays draw-go and I play land-go until he has more cards in hand than I have mana, and then he wins.  You need to be able to do something about that.  Ministration I see as an answer to that.

[Nimrod]

Im glad to see that my little comment made a little impact in this conversation, though, if I can explain myself ill say that when i talked about Holistic Wisdom, I suggested it adding it in place of another enchantment (not lowering then the enchantment rate), and that Holistic Wisdom would come in place of another enchantment with recursive or tutoring-like abilities, or maybe even a replenish.

I realize the idea of substituting a replenish or sterling grove or something else for Holistic Wisdom may appear very ridiculous to you, but then again I have never played enchantress (though I have played a good ammount of parfait, maybe its even my favourite deck along with Oath or even more). Though, Holistic Wisdom has always appeared to me that would be very strong in the right deck, and I dont know if enchantress is it, potentially turning every dead card into a instant regrowth is very tempting, I cannot know if enchantress is the best deck to take advantage of this, thus, Ill rely on your testing.

[cooberp]

Personally, I think HW is AMAZING in a Keeper that can support GG.
You certainly couldn't cut a Replenish for it, or go to two Groves.  We're testing it as card no. 61.

Anybody have an idea for a sideboard slot to defend against graveyard hate?  Ivory Mask is too slow, doesn't stop Furnace from offing a key card or Planar Void from stopping everything.

[Radjammin]

Ground Seal, but it doesn't stop much.

It is efficient though.

[spin13]

The problem with anti-graveyard hate is that there is very little that protects against all of it.  

Phyrexian Furnace: half stopped by Ivory Mask, half by Ground Seal.  Fully stopped by nothing.

Tormod's Crypt: stopped by Ivory Mask

Planar Void: stopped by Seal of Cleansing/Aura Fracture, however the Seal or land is still removed.

I don't know of any other 'commonly' play graveyard hate, but there is no universal answer.  I think its something you just have to metagame against: if you expect one, pack one effect, if you expect another do something else.  Its tough like that, but I guess thats where you play straight up Enchantress and forget about Replenish, and maybe you'll get lucky and still be able to recur a few things anyway.

 -Eric

[Radjammin]

Wizards does seem to threw us alot of Enchantments that are good, but what to do with all of them?

I think Holistic Wisdom is worth playtesting as the graveyard answer that is an enchantment.  I would suggest it is better then Will and Regrowth as most of the time the only thing you want to return to play other then enchantments is argothian, some moxes, or land.

The thing is that the moxes are free, argothian would have to be removed to get another argothian, and the land thing might not be worth it.   So what you going to get?  An enchantment?  Why not just replenish them all back into play.

Don't have the mana?  Well if you have the mana to play Holistic Wisdom and use it, then you have the mana for replenish.

I personlly think that Yawgmoth's will is the best answer.

Get's back moxes all at once and for 5 you can get back an aggrothian and play a land for the turn.

If you can add something to the deck to make it worth wild to play then do it, but with the cards that are in Enchantress right now it's not worth it.

[cooberp]

Well, remember that HW requires you to remove enchantments from the game, which you generally don't want to do.
That said, swapping Abysses for Sylvans against control or Cities of Solitude for Pariahs against aggro seems good to me.
It's main purpose would be to recur Strip Mine, Serra's Sanctum, and occasionally Replenish.  I haven't done enough playtesting to say if this works.
Will is ATROCIOUS in Enchantress.  Your stuff is all expensive--you could tap out to cast two enchantments off Will late game, or you could Replenish everything back for 3W.

[Matt The Great]

It might worthy to note that Seal of Cleansing/Aura of Silence stops Planar Void and Phyrexian Furnace well, and isn't useless against Tormod's Crypt (good against a pre-emptively played Crypt, bad against a topdecked one). There's really not much you can do to stop a Crypt. Null Rod comes to mind (also hits Furnace) but you're packing a lot of artifacts already so I don't think this is a good way to go.

[cooberp]

Null Rod would be suicide.
I don't think an extra Seal in the board would really make a difference, unfortunately.  We already have Aura Fracture, which everyone knows is tied with Contract from Below for the best card ever printed.\n\n

[Radjammin]

Quote (cooberp @ Sep. 29 2002,13:40)Will is ATROCIOUS in Enchantress.  Your stuff is all expensive--you could tap out to cast two enchantments off Will late game, or you could Replenish everything back for 3W.

I think you are missing the point.  

You run 4 Replenish, so you are really not worried about bringing back enchantments.  
The current Enchantress deck has a problem brining back non-enchantments.  Lands, Enchantresses, duresses, and Jewelery is what you can't bring back with the enchantress deck.  YWill can do all this.  If you say that regrowth can do this too, well if you play the land out of the graveyard and play the spell that turn, it cost the same cc.  How many times do you send your whole turn just getting something back from the graveyard? I don't.  I play spells that effect the game that turn and regrow it later.

I am not saying my answer is the best, I just want everyone to focus on what the problem is, what our options are, and which ones resolve problems that currently exist.

I think what was said about seal of cleansing being a good anti card is a good call.  It seems to be the best responce. You can easily side in another as you can't count on the one in the graveyard.  Doesn't offer the same benifit as null rod, but null rod doesn't have the same fit as an esily added second seal.

I think continuous recursion is less important in the modern 1 hour rounds of current type 1.  It's all about inpact.  I don't see how HC adds impact.  Actually I really think what would help Replenish the most is some way to put about 7 cards into the graveyard off the top of the library in the early game.  Now that the entire deck centers around  getting enchantments into play replenish becomes more of a powerhouse then a second try spell.  

We all know that replenish does alot more in Enchantress then it does in Parfait, so how can we abuse it?  I think at 4 mana we need to be exploding.  Side note: The YWill works pretty good at recovering moxes in my design.

So how do we do that?
Oath of Duid?
That's my only guess.  Got any, post them.

[j_orlove]

Yawgwill is bad because you want to recurse enchantments more than those other cards (thats why the deck had 4 replenish and 0 regrowth). If you play yawgwill, you would end up using it as an inferior replenish.

H.W. doesn't offer "continuous recursion", but let's you get back key lands, and replace worthless anti- (aggro/control) cards with useful anti-(control/aggro) cards.

I've also run into that problem with losing sanctum, and H.W. seems like a good answer.

[spin13]

I think the idea of milling, in any sense of the word, in order to set up a Replenish, while powerful, is more fit for a combo-riffic deck than Enchantress.  The idea behind Enchantress is that there is a certain synergy and multi-pronged attack nature between the actual Enchantresses and Replenishes.  The Enchantress serves to amplify threats as they come into play, and the Replenish serves to not only recur these threats, but to provide second and third tries at resolution.  Removing the need for the Enchantresses ask that you flat out win when you resolve a Replenish.  While you could always try to fit in the Pande-burst combo into Enchantress, I think its not worth the two Mesa's those cards would replace.  The reason Enchantress exists as its own deck is because flexibility and less reliance on one card in particular has its benefits in certain environments, and changing that fact is a mistake.

As for Yawgmoth's Will, I agree that it might have been overlooked in the past.  The idea that replaying a land, in the situation where you want to recur a spell rather than the land itself, it does virtually reduce the cost.  With Moxen, it might be even better.  I think the notion that Will can realisticly -- and to great effect -- be played as simply a Regrowth shouldn't be overlooked.  Will doesn't have to simply win the game, and in the Regrowth slot, rather than in addition to, it might be worthwhile.  Colored mana constraints, however, might still need to be looked at.  Either way, to Dan, and others trying the deck, I think its something that falls enough in line in theory to be at least tested again before discarded.

 -Eric

[Radjammin]

Quote (spin13 @ Sep. 29 2002,22:21)As for Yawgmoth's Will, I agree that it might have been overlooked in the past.  The idea that replaying a land, in the situation where you want to recur a spell rather than the land itself, it does virtually reduce the cost.  With Moxen, it might be even better.  

The more I play type 1, the more I feel :

If you play the colors play the restricted list.
Now I agree there are the few Doomsday type cards on the restricted list that could be described as "powerless" more then powerfull.

I really think the only reason Replenish isn't restricted is becuase no one has complained.(i.e. no on has broken it yet in type 1)

The discard idea was something you could play with depending on your opponent.  I def. didn't plan to mill my deck vs. control but against aggro it might speed up the winning process.

Combo cards don't belong in control decks, but aren't all t1 deck on the border of combo anyway? so does the rule apply to type 1?

I mean you have 4 replenishes?  Don't you think you will have 1 in your hand after 3 or 4 draws? Why not use it and win?