Enchantress Onslaught changes

[cooberp]

I've never played against Dragon.  I said 25% because of the odds that it might draw all of its games.
Mask will NEVER hit before you die against any good combo deck.
The anticombo sideboard I've heard of is Arcane Laboratory, but the mana can't support it.

[cooberp]

More on the TnT matchup.

I've been playing it a lot recently.  I find, very strangely, that I am completely dominating game one and consistently losing after sideboarding, which is very very strange.  Does anyone have a good SB idea versus TnT?  An enchantment of 1-3cc, obviously.

[Matt The Great]

My initial response would be Aura of Silence. Aura Shards/Sacred Mesa would also be keen.\n\n

[cooberp]

Aura of Silence doesn't slow down Welders and it comes down pretty slow...but I'll test it.  Thanks for the suggestion.
By the time I've got Mesa down, I've won, and I already have Aura Fracture.  Don't think Shards is it.

[Hampuusi]

If it's only Welders you are worried about, I'd think that Engineered Plague might just fit the bill (3cc, color is already supported, single colored mana, enchantment... Did I miss anything?).

Do you add more Seals of Cleansing after game one or do you have a different plan?

[cooberp]

Good idea, but I think that might be a little too specific.  You know.  Aura Plus Plague would work, but by the time I get those two out I've lost.
I just bring in Aura Fracture to munch on Survival and then stop the artifact critters with Plows, Pariah etc.

[Grand Inquisitor]

how about planar void (this does however hurt your recursion) or maybe tormod's crypt?  that is strange, can you tell us more about how you're losing games 2 & 3 (what are they sb'ing in).

[dicemanX]

Would packing Humilities in the SB make sense to stop their recursion? They're slow, and they still leave opponents with 1/1's, and of course they nail Enchantresses. However, if you do resolve Humility, do you really need to rely on Enchantress? You'd still have the Enchantress's Presence for back-up...

Plus, perhaps Humility is not a bad card vs mono-U, as it nails their win condition and card drawing (if Ophidians are run) if you resolve it or Replenish it back.

[Hampuusi]

I just realized, that the Engineered Plague also nails AoS. But I have no idea if it needs nailing or not?   Is it a bad matchup to Enchantress? Combo in general is, but you do have enchantment kill on your side.

[cooberp]

Inquisitor--Planar Void is a strong ANTI-Enchantress sideboard card.  Crypt would be good but it has to be an enchantment.  It's not any particular hate card that's doing me in--a few more Lyrists I guess...I'll do more testin.
dicemanX--It does absolutely ream TnT if they're not running Charms or Naturalize; however, it is 4cc AND neuters my Enchantresses.  I might test it but I'm almost sure it will suck.
Hampuusi--No, not at all.  They're slow and you have tons of answers for infinite Squirrels even before Aura Fracture.

[dicemanX]

Perhaps it's possible to beat TnT through combo transformation with Oath of Druids, Squirrel Nest, Earthcraft, and Reclamation? I'm working on the idea in the AoS mini-primer thread, just thought I'd mention it. Perhaps it might be viable, perhaps it will completely stink, but I think it's worth a look.

[Radjammin]

Why not just replenish/sideboard seal of cleansing your way to victory?

I hear Seal of Cleansing takes down even the biggest Juggurnaut and returns to get their Survival.

4 Replenish/ 4 Seal of Clensing = Victory vs TnT.

Doesn't really stop their Welder tricks, but really the inital seal of cleansing are just to slow them down, right?  It's when you replenish them back that you do the damage.

[leakycow]

Heck...why not try COP: Artifacts

[Rogue]

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Powder Keg
2 Choke
2 Samite Ministration
2 CoP: Red
2 Femeref Enchantress
1 Karmic Justice
1 Aura Fracture
1 City of Solitude

Coober p doesnt have room for more hate against decks like dragon. I doubt he sees them much, and if he does, he could easily side for them. Allready he has cut an aura fracture. If I wanted to beat tnt, I would want a worship lock. The cards to stop are survival, random dudes, and welder. Therefore, more enchantment kill(I would like a second fracture) would be nice, 2 kegs and 2 stp are good are good for welders and random dudes. If I saw the matchup enough, I would probably just side 2 more stp and possibly a second moat, and possibly even crypt(permanently stop genesis/squee/trike recursion and slow welders down). As far as 1-3cc enchantments go...cop artifacts seems awfully janky......

[Peztacular]

I apologize for this post in advance.

How hard is it to get double black mana?  Becuase I have the jankiest idea to deal with Squee, Genesis, Wonder, and even Welder recursion.  Mortiphobia.  Yeah, I know.  But if the initial casting cost isn't a problem, then its gravy.  You don't even have to discard cards, becuase you can sacrifice itself (although you still have to pay 2).  So it combos well with replenish.  

As scary as it is to say, the card looks like it would be useful in the matchup.  Is the mana cost too problematic to deal with?  Or am I missing something else?

[cooberp]

Extra Seals aren't a bad idea, although it's hard to say what should be cut for 'em.
I've considered Mortiphobia before.  The mana isn't the problem, it's the discarding cards.  Unless I'm about to set up a Replenish, it's just horrific card disadvantage.  I wish there was an enchantment version of Crypt that I could Replenish.

[spin13]

I like the idea of COP:artifacts.  Chuck and I discussed it for Keeper's SB, more in a joking manner, but it just might work if you're not already playing stuff like Furnace, Crypt, Pulse and Charm (which you're not).  Its the only 1 card solution I can think of.
 -E

[ctthespian]

Quote (Peztacular @ Oct. 14 2002,18:01)How hard is it to get double black mana?  Becuase I have the jankiest idea to deal with Squee, Genesis, Wonder, and even Welder recursion.  Mortiphobia.

With Mortiphobia's 1BB casting cost I'd rather pay the 3BB and Echos the person.  That would do more damage to them and there would be no resource loss activating the Mortihobia.
That's if the two Black color specific is possible.

-Keith

[jdl]

Haunting Echos is massive overkill against TnT.  Ebony Charm would be good enough to buy you extra time to win, but then why not just use Tormod's Crypt.  If you absolutely must use an enchantment for this purpose, then Night Soil might be as good as it gets, and that's not so good.

[cooberp]

Mortiphobia is 1B.
All of these are good solutions (Crypt is the best) but none are enchantments.  Maybe they just haven't printed what I'm looking for.
(no I still haven't found what I'm looking for...)\n\n

[Peztacular]

Mortiphobia's casting cost is 1BB.  It's activation cost is 1B.  

I suggested it more becuase you sacrifice it to activate it instead of discarding (although occasionally the discard might be useful).  I was thinking of it primarily as a Seal for the graveyard with an added mana cost.

The problem is obviously that its selective and won't allow you to wipe out the graveyard.  At least against TNT however, selectivly taking out single cards should give you a leg up and let your other enchantments do their job.  If you have a moat in play, you can get rid of their wonder.   If their just welding in response to you using Seal on their fat, you can use Mortiphobia to take out the one in the grave and hurt that.  If their just outdrawing you with survival and squee, you can get rid of the goblin.

Obviously, you can't go Mortiphobia crazy on someone.  But you can use it selectively, like Hollistic Wisdom, and gain an edge.  Just having it on the board forces someone who uses graveyard recursion carefully and differently, and thats got to improve your percentage.  

It won't allow you to wreck someone like Haunting Echoes will, but you can tutor for it, get it on the board before you need it, draw cards of playing it, replenish it back.  And since its not card disadvatage if you choose to sac it instead of discarding to it, I fail to see the problem.

With the lack of something better, isn't it the most interesting choice?  After all, CoP artifacts will get real expensive if your also using Aura fracture.

[spin13]

Aura Fracture will, most likely, only get used twice in a game against TnT, simply because they only have 4 Survivals and shit for search.  Mana loss from that aspect is fairly negligible.  I think Abyss + COP:Artifact makes you fairly safe, its just neither covers the problems the other does and requiring both is more the problem.

If Mortiphobia didn't cost 1BB it would most likely be the answer, but I am not sure how well that is going to fair.  You're going to be using Fetch lands to get mana for things like Moat, and then trying to get 1BB just to stop Wonder, etc?  Mortiphobia is only an answer to their answers, rarely an answer in and of itself, making it secondary, and a hard to cast secondary spell at that.  

Nightsoil, however much I love the card, doesn't seem viable.  The double casting cost is just as bad as Mortiphobia and cannot deal with an odd number of creatures in the grave.  That may not be a problem, but I still think the casting cost, and the general ineffectiveness against any other deck-type (at least Mortiphobia can take out random other recursion decks), makes it kind of shaky.

 -E

[Anonymous]

CooberP as we have found in playing the best way to beat TNT is with the worship enchantress lock. Once that is established even broken turns cannot help tnt out. As for sb Aura Fracture and Seal of Clensing really hurt TNT, by the way Mortiphobia costs 1B, but as CooberP stated is huge card disadvantage that would only be good when setting up Replenish.

[Radjammin]

Ya I think you guys are just beating a dead horse.  The simplest answer is usually the best one.  I think just adding 3 seal of cleansing from the sideboard would deal with TnT nicely.  Like I said before, the initial seals would just slow them down.  The Replenish would "seal" the coffin.
Hehe....

[Anonymous]

Rad I really think you should play that matchup before commenting that simply 3 seals would seal the game for enchantress. The thing is TNT doesn't need more then 1 broken turn with survival to seal the game, seal of clensings alone will not push the match in enchantress' favor. Also TNT drops many threats very fast and by time they can cast replenish it might already be their doom. (SPIN by the way for keeper I think energy flux would be as good as cop: artifacts.)

[Peztacular]

I'm more then Willing to accept that Mortiphobia is not good enough to make the deck. But there is one thing here thats bothering me.


Look at that card.  What is it's casting cost?  Thank you.  BTW, to those misquoting it, where are you getting your info?

I still think the second ability on it is much more important then the first.

[Anonymous]

Sorry its an error on apprentice, thanks for that Pez.

[spin13]

Energy Flux, for any deck, must take into account that while it hurts TnT's horrible manabase early, really isn't a late-game card that you can topdeck and save yourself with.  That said, it also turns your own Moxen into worthless cardboard.  The way I see it, Energy Flux is an early game card, but one you really don't want to accelerate out.  Paradox or no?  

Though the secondary ability of Mortiphobia is nice, it still costs 1BB and then 1B.  That a incredible obstacle for topdecking and saving yourself with, and still a hefty commitment even if broken up over two turns.  All that, and its still only a 1 for 1.

As for Seal of Cleansing, I believe we are looking for a single card that will swing the matchup for Enchantress.  Its still a tutor based deck, and forcing itself to just jam pack its SB to win one match really cuts down on the entire flexibility that the deck strives to provide for itself.  If you had that many slots in the SB, I'd think you'd be better off just bringing in some sort of combo and just winning like that.  However, thats just not feasible, or else you beat TnT and nothing else.

 -E

[Nimrod]

Reading around, I found this old card that I think can really improve the control and combo matchup, the downside? it costs 2U, and messes with the Ancestral MD and the 2 swords in the SB, anyway, here it is, you might even remember it:

In the Eye of Chaos

Enchant World
Whenever a player plays an instant spell, counter it unless that player pays , where X is its converted mana cost. (quoted from crystal keep).

I dunno, this might replace the city of solitude, and would allow you to play abilities on the opponent's turn, though I dont know if 9 sources of blue mana + black lotus can support the card, Im guessing it can wreck house (paying 4 mana for a regular counter and 5 for a pitched FoW is something control isnt ready to do).

Also, it makes harder to kill with stroke, and it would be harder for combo players to use their tutors and card drawing.

Though I havent been able to test echantress (or much of anything lately), this gives me a good feeling, im interested in your comments.

[cooberp]

If Enchantress had 9 real sources of U + Lotus, it could definitely support that card.  But you REALLY don't want to Heath for the Tundra; you only do that if you have Ancestral or DT to get it in hand.  And if an opponent knew you needed blue mana for a hoser it would get Wasted.  Plus, City of Solitude is strictly better against control.  Against combo, it would certainly be nice, but the draw sevens and Replenish are all sorceries, and Dragon gets infinite mana.  The good anti-combo SB is Arcane Laboratory.  I don't think the manabase can support a 2nd blue card, but I might test some post SB games versus combo to see.  If it really wins when it's out, it might be worth a slot.