Revisiting Keeper

[Milton]

As most of you know, I have been a very harsh critic of Keeper since my failures at Gen Con.  I posted an article on Star City that stated my thesis:  Keeper is waaaay to easy to hose in a random metagame and has become obsolete.  I felt that typical Keeper decks were very easy to beat with simple, single card strategies, such as Back to Basics and Price of Progress.  Also, aggro and mono-blue have access to these cards and they expect Keeper, so most decks are very well prepared for and easily capable of beating Keeper.  

Clearly, numerous sides have developed on this issue.  Some dismiss my claims that Keeper is obsolete.  They claim that my experiences were unique, or that my deck was sub-par.  Some even claim that Gen Con was not a solid metagame.  This is a matter of opinion and cannot be argued rationally.  My thesis is supported with the fact that Keeper made-up perhaps 1/5 of the decks at Gen Con, but didn't finish higher than third in any of the five T1 tournaments.  Still, some disagree for various reasons.

By the way, the sometimes uncivil nature of these disagreements have kept me from posting on this mill with any regularity.  Quite simply, when others question your deck making ability or play style, you can't help but feel like crap.  This has made me not want to contribute in any real way, so I can aviod criticism by my peers.  But, I am growing bolder with my thesis in that I rarely see Keeper decks fininshing first in any tournament reports.  

Anyway, I argue that Keeper is fragile and easy to disrupt.  As such, I, like many, have begun looking for modifications, so Keeper can remain a strong and competitive deck.  As aggro gets stronger with TnT's emergence and rapid rise to the top of the tier, I continue to ask the simple quesiton; is Keeper obsolete?

So, my challenge to you all, Keeper players and non-Keeper players, is to answer the simple quesiton "is Keeper obsolete?".  If your answer is no, then why not?  If your answer is yes, then what modifictions do you make?

My answers are these:

1) Keeper needs four main-deck spot creature removal spells.  One Swords, one Edict and one Fire/Ice is not a good idea.  Three Swords and an Edict or Keg are much better, with Abyss or Moat as a back-up.

1.5) By the way, Moat is starting to look much more attractive with the rise of good aggro decks.

2) Keeper needs a more structured mana base.  This means cutting a color.  Red is necessary for Red Blasts.  White is for removal.  Black is for brokenness.  So, green has to go.  Its time is done.  The Green Mox can even go in some instances, giving way for a more stable land base.

3) Are three wastes and a strip enough?  TnT and Grow are punching people in the face.  Maybe four wastes and a strip is becoming a more attractive option.

4) Two disenchant effects are needed in most metagames.  Cursed Scroll, Back to Basics, Survival, Juggeranut, Scald, Oath, Bloodmoon and Sylvan are all common.  Two Disenchant effects greatly helps.

So, based on my analysis, is Keeper starting a backwards trend toward old school "The Deck", favoring white again?

Thoughts anyone?

[Zherbus]

Quote 1) Keeper needs four main-deck spot creature removal spells.  One Swords, one Edict and one Fire/Ice is not a good idea.  Three Swords and an Edict or Keg are much better, with Abyss or Moat as a back-up.

1.5) By the way, Moat is starting to look much more attractive with the rise of good aggro decks.

I agree with 1...to a point. I got around this by using Cunning Wish. This lets me run more spot removal without having dead cards in the mirror or against combo. I started with 1 Wish in my 5-Color Version but with the fetch lands I've gone down to 4 Colors taking out green. I Added a Wish to help make up for the loss of regrowth and so far has been great.

1.5) There is nothing wrong with that thought and I would never ridicule anyone for making that choice. My preference is still on Abyss since its much easier to cast.

Quote 2) Keeper needs a more structured mana base.  This means cutting a color.  Red is necessary for Red Blasts.  White is for removal.  Black is for brokenness.  So, green has to go.  Its time is done.  The Green Mox can even go in some instances, giving way for a more stable land base.

Agreed. Green is gone now with the new fetchlands. Before the fetchlands I kept trying but didnt like any version I made. I made a nicely working manabase with the inclusion of 4 fetchlands over the Cities. This is great especially against aggro since you dont end up with those 2-3 CoB hands that make aggro kill you faster.

Quote 3) Are three wastes and a strip enough?  TnT and Grow are punching people in the face.  Maybe four wastes and a strip is becoming a more attractive option.

I think this is entirely a metagame call. I find that 4 strips are enough in the unknown/general metagame so I stick with that. Especially because colorless mana isnt very attractive in a 4-5 color deck.

Quote 4) Two disenchant effects are needed in most metagames.  Cursed Scroll, Back to Basics, Survival, Juggeranut, Scald, Oath, Bloodmoon and Sylvan are all common.  Two Disenchant effects greatly helps.

Cunning Wish that finds Allay/Shattering Pulse is what I'm using. I also use Alter Reality to 2 for 1 Blasts and to help a bit against color specific hate.

Quote By the way, the sometimes uncivil nature of these disagreements have kept me from posting on this mill with any regularity.  Quite simply, when others question your deck making ability or play style, you can't help but feel like crap.  This has made me not want to contribute in any real way, so I can aviod criticism by my peers.  But, I am growing bolder with my thesis in that I rarely see Keeper decks fininshing first in any tournament reports.  

I agree, I am moving this to Extreme Vintage and make a personal request to keep this discussion on a civil level. I hate deleting posts and banning people.

[leviat]

Quote 2) Keeper needs a more structured mana base.  This means cutting a color.  Red is necessary for Red Blasts.  White is for removal.  Black is for brokenness.  So, green has to go.  Its time is done.  The Green Mox can even go in some instances, giving way for a more stable land base.

By cutting green, how different would you change keeper's manabase? Just swap Tropical Island for Volcanic Island? I'm just curios how that would give way to a more stable mana base. (I'm serious here, I'm not trying to mock cutting green).

And to delve a little deeper, would you replace the Regrowth with a Relearn?

Also, without Regrowth, you have one less way to bring Morphling back from the dead. With only two Morphlings, I would be a little scared.

EDIT: (hehe, Zherbus moved the topic on me and replied already)

Quote I made a nicely working manabase with the inclusion of 4 fetchlands over the Cities. This is great especially against aggro since you dont end up with those 2-3 CoB hands that make aggro kill you faster.

But by replacing the Cities with Fetchlands, you don't really smooth out the manabase, you just make it less painful. (Which is good, don't get me wrong).

[spin13]

The removal of Green from the maindeck solidifies the mana in a number of ways.  One, even by playing 1 Tropical, you run the risk of having to play your Tropical and get it stripped before you ever find/need your green cards.  Two, every time you search out the Tropical, you are missing out on another color.  Three, with the removal of Cities for Fetchlands, your virtual count of each color remains the same, however, the actual amount decreases at an often much more significant rate.  Previously playing 1 Black source decreased your Black count left in the deck by 1.  Searching for a Sea decreases the number of Black sources by two, and decreases the virtual number of all other colors by 1 as well.  This can be planned and played around, but one of the simplest ways to ensure this does not screw you is to eliminate green.

Relearn is strictly suboptimal, and I, among others, would readily play Recall over Relearn.  You have to realize that neither Relearn nor Recall is the same as Regrowth and thus does not play the same function.  However, Recall can act not only as a single card recurer, another pitch card, and a way to turn dead cards into useful cards, but it can do so at a rate only really beaten by Yawgmoth's Will.

 -Eric

[Zherbus]

Quote But by replacing the Cities with Fetchlands, you don't really smooth out the manabase, you just make it less painful. (Which is good, don't get me wrong).

Well I suppose thats correct in a way. It is more of getting the right dual when you need it and taking out the need for a 5th color the smooths it out a bit.

[spevack]

The Type 1 metagame has undergone tremendous change in the past few months, spearheaded by the discovery of TnT and the seeming revival of aggro decks, along with Miracle Gro.

Similarly, the presence of T1 events at large tournaments has made for a highly varied field, with metagames that are difficult to predict.

Keeper, in my opinion, needs to react to this metagame shift, both in it maindeck and sideboarding choices, if it wants to remain competitive.

The challenge for Keeper is several-fold:

1.  For a long time, Keeper has held the reputation as the best deck to play in an unknown or varied metagame, because its answers are so powerful, and a single tutor can frequently get you a card that just wins games against particular matchups.

2.  This being said, the remainder of the field tries to create a deck that can beat Keeper, and still have reasonable matchups against other deck types.

3.  Keeper must react to this by filling the sideboard with cards that are general enough to be used in multiple matchups, but which can answer the more specific threats that particular decks will bring in.

4.  As this cycle continues, Keeper continues to stretch itself thin, as it tries to have answers to every possible matchup, but still remain as "general" as possible.

5.  What this leads to is a 5 color control deck which must be played flawlessly in order to win against other top Type 1 decks.  Witness TnT, Suicide, and MonoU, which are all very difficult matchups for the Keeper player.  I don't think anyone is going to argue that any of those matchups are auto-losses, or even incredibly unfavorable, but it is reasonable to say that a game loss can frequently be traced back to a single suboptimal play -- not even necessarily a wrong play, just a suboptimal one.

So, where does this leave us?

The suggestions mentioned, including cutting a color from the deck, bringing the Moat back main, adding more swords, etc. will make the deck more redundant, and probably make it stronger against aggro as well.  However, it will sacrifice the "generalness" for which Keeper is so famous.  If we devote more maindeck and sideboard slots to holding back the stem of aggro, doesn't that just make it weaker in the MonoU matchup, and perhaps also in the mirror (though extra swords can be very good in the mirror, if it ends up being all about shaman and miner).

In my mind, the problem is this -- how can we make Keeper more prepared to fight decks like TnT while not making MonoU and similar control matchups more difficult?

Keeper is caught in a state of flux, trying to maintain its identity as the deck best-equipped to simply take on all comers, while proving that is is strong enough to take down decks built with beating Keeper specifically in mind.

Play skill with Keeper has always been important, but it is becoming even more so now.  Until Brian Weissman or Jon Finkel picks up an optimal build and brings it to the next Grand Prix or Pro Tour T1 side event, you're not going to see Keeper winning tournaments.  The deck can still do well -- and definitely remains top tier, but it's fragile, and therefore requires perfect execution, or a long discussion of ways to solidify it.

[Fishhead]

Quote answer the simple quesiton "is Keeper obsolete?"

In short, "no".  Everything has weaknesses, and everything is possible to hate.  So it comes as no surprise that Keeper should be vulnerable.  

I think certain popular builds of Keeper are ridiculous and just cant survive in the real world; I also think the hype that Keeper is the one and only King deck (and always has been) is junk as well.

But I dont want to get carried away here.  To say Keeper is obsolete is to say that you should definitely be playing something else.  And I dont think things have gone that far.  There are a handful of decks that I'd consider playing in a tournament that I wanted to win and Keeper is still one of them.  So, for me, not obsolete.  

Quote Quite simply, when others question your deck making ability or play style, you can't help but feel like crap.  

One cruel but vital exercise in art class is to put your work up on the wall with everyone elses and let the opinions fly.  Its brutal, but its a quick way to get better at your craft.  So, I try to take criticism here with that same positive way.

That said, I have no respect for people who snipe away at others but refuse to put their own work "up on the wall".  And I have no respect for people who attack the artist rather than the art. "Ur DeCK suXXXorZ and U R toopid 4 PlAYinG it".   Yeah, whatever, punk.

Its hard to do somewhere as impersonal as the 'net, but good criticism is important.  Just ignore the people who are just backing up their "advice" with hot air.  

-edit-
wow, 4 posts and a forum change already.  this is going to be a hot one.  

[Milton]

Cunning Wish was just too slow against aggro.  Sure, it gets you a Blue Blast, but at four mana.  Sure, it gets you a Plow, but at four mana.  If TnT has an early Jug, they have probabally hit you a few times before you can Wish for the Shattering Pulse or Swords.

My playgroup found Wish efficient, but it was slow and it forced us to bastardize our sideboards with extremely situational instants that rarely get boarded-in after game 1.  Also, those situational instants have better options in sorcery or enchantment form, which cannot be Wished for.  At least that's what we found.

Also, how are the fetch lands working?  It would seem to me that if you maintain a 28 / 32 land / spell ratio, you would really hurt your mana base in the face of an opponent's wasteland.  If your opponent plays a first turn Waste and you play a first turn fetch land, if you fetch a Tundra, he can waste it, effectively killing two for one.  Also, what is the appropriate ratio of fetch lands if you maintain 28 / 32?  Four fetch lands?  That would drastically alter your late-game mana base and it would alter your ability to establish an early game mana base.  Wouldn't it?

[spin13]

Four fetchlands certainly is a possibility, and a very strong one at that.  As if playing your mana wasn't already enough of a considering in Keeper previously, considering the various threats of Wasteland and Price of Progress, as well as your own factors like Zuran Orb, fetchlands really push this to a skill based exercise.  One of the best ways I've seen of describing the correct play in Keeper, though vague, is "the proper play is waiting to exactly the last possible moment before expending a resource."  The same applies to fetchlands in a more realistic, easily determinable way.  Using a fetchland should not be done until the mana is needed.

As for Cunning Wish, I have found it to be a wonderful solution, providing conditional answers without weakening the maindeck or lowering the number of blue spells.  The idea is not to replace any of the removal spells in your deck with Wish, but to supplement them with it.  If you have this configuration: 1 Swords, 1 Fire/Ice, 1 Chainer's Edict, 2 Cunning Wish, you still have the means to destroy the initial onslaught, as well as the means to back that removal up.  You've got a maindeck that has a virtual 6 spot removal spells in addition to Balance and The Abyss.  However, you're also down to 1 dead card in the mirror with this configuration.  Not only that, but you can get specific removal cards such as Shattering Pulse for Juggernauts/etc.

 -Eric

[Zherbus]

Cunning Wish is not too slow; Its how I have maintained a good record against TnT. Turn 1 Juggernaut or not, its done what it needs with efficiency. As far as bastardizing the SB, I cant say I have missed too much of what needed to be taken out. All I have to side in for the mirror is 3 REB's, possibly a MisD. I can also leave in the wish in for the mirror and sideout the creature kill and STILL be able to deal with a Miner.

Against aggro, I generally dont need to side in that much. I basically replace the wishes for what I tend to wish for and add in the Moat, COP, Keg, whatever else I might need.

Some people have been using Burning Wish as well since it gets Twister against Black, Pyroclasm against lots of stuff, and get back a used up Yawgies Will. I dont go that way because Cunning Wish has really done EVERYTHING I have needed it to.

Fetchlands are great. A turn 1 fetchland sits and taunts a wasteland until you are ready to use it. Sure when the land gets wasted it'll nab 2 sources of any 1 color in the deck, but you usually use 1 maybe 2 fetchlands in the course of a game so the thinning effects in a negative sense arent hurtful.

The point is to wait until you need it. You have THAT mana to use at least once before its stripped whereas normally its wasted before you can so much as tap it for anything useful.

EDIT:

Quote If you have this configuration: 1 Swords, 1 Fire/Ice, 1 Chainer's Edict, 2 Cunning Wish, you still have the means to destroy the initial onslaught, as well as the means to back that removal up.  You've got a maindeck that has a virtual 6 spot removal spells in addition to Balance and The Abyss.

Thats what I have maindeck against aggro. You STILL use the swords/fire/Edict (I have flashed it back fairly early to get 2 Juggernauts  ) for the early game and then when your mana is better established you wish for the Bombs. Hell it usually doesn take too long. Wish EOT for a bomb, untap and begin using it.

Against TnT Ill kill welders at any cost, wish for Pulse and go to town. Su-Chis also often beat the snot out of its owner if they have no sink, which is nice. Allay hasnt proven too good against Enchantress other than to nab a few key cards, but against Parfait it has been nice.

In Keeper mirrors and against combo with loads of mana, getting a pulse has proven to function well as another form of mana denial. An emergency Shaman if you would.

[Fishhead]

Quote Fetchlands are great. A turn 1 fetchland sits and taunts a wasteland until you are ready to use it.

Besides this, I was also thinking of trying to mix in a certain number of basic Islands and perhaps a single basic Plains (or Mountain?!).  I havent done any work on it until I get the cards (and where is my box of Onslaught?!) but this would be another way to solve your Wasteland problems.  

One of the things I liked about the wild Mirari Keeper is that it ran 3xIsland.  Somehow I had a brain failure against MonoU a couple weeks back and let him tap me out and BtB me.  Those basic Islands saved my life.  

Anyway, my thought is that the Fetchlands give you a lot of possibilities for re-arranging the manabase; it will probably take a bit of time for us to come to an optimal plan.

[Zherbus]

Quote (Fishhead @ Nov. 01 2002,17:49)

Quote Fetchlands are great. A turn 1 fetchland sits and taunts a wasteland until you are ready to use it.

Besides this, I was also thinking of trying to mix in a certain number of basic Islands and perhaps a single basic Plains (or Mountain?!).  I havent done any work on it until I get the cards (and where is my box of Onslaught?!) but this would be another way to solve your Wasteland problems.  

One of the things I liked about the wild Mirari Keeper is that it ran 3xIsland.  Somehow I had a brain failure against MonoU a couple weeks back and let him tap me out and BtB me.  Those basic Islands saved my life.  

Anyway, my thought is that the Fetchlands give you a lot of possibilities for re-arranging the manabase; it will probably take a bit of time for us to come to an optimal plan.

I am toying with the idea of mixing 1-2 basic lands in, but I really dont know how effective it would prove to be. Islands are great and all, but I would imagine it would require a plains to use the anti enchantment measures.

[DigDug]

I would run a Plains before running Islands.  Wait a minute, I already do!  I use a Plains in place of a Wasteland.  It doesn't take away from my blue production, and lets me deal with Back to Basics and Bloodmoon.  I've also added a Flooded Strand so I can fetch my Plains in response to one of those enchantments being cast.  My keeper is also heavy white, relatively speaking.  I use four Tundras, plus the Plains, so I can cast a maindeck Moat more reliably.

As far as a screwed-up sideboard so I can use Cunning Wish, I did replace a Seal of Cleansing with a Disenchant and added a Diabolic Edict, but those are the only changes I made because of the wish.  That way, I don't have silver bullets against various decks, but a single card that is good against lots of decks.  The only spells I can wish for are Diabolic Edict, Disenchant, Enlightened Tutor, and Misdirection.  I like to think of Cunning Wish as a blue Vindicate.

I have four maindeck creature control spells: Moat, The Abyss, Swords to Plowshares, and Balance.  The only thing I don't like is a missing Chainer's Edict, and that is really bothering me.  I started liking a maindeck Phyrexian Furnace to combat Tubbies, combos, and anything running Yawgmoth's Will.  If I find a foil Edict, I'll probably give up on the Furnace and put Tormod's Crypt back into the sideboard.

In the sideboard, I have two Oath of Druids which give me free Morphlings for extra creature control.  I'm relatively set against creatures and black decks.  Where mine fails is against other control decks.  I don't have a single red card.  It's a matchup in which I expect to beat inferior players, but I expect to lose against comparable or superior players.  Even keeper can't beat everything.  Maybe I'll try City of Solitude.

[Zherbus]

Well if there is Multiple Oaths maindeck, then thats an Oath deck to me.

One thing noone has mentioned, which I will throw into the wind here is the Combo Keeper Sideboard. It basically forsakes red for either an Oath-Combo deck for aggro or a duress/beatstick against control. If the Cunning Wish thing wasnt working and I was losing to aggro then I would explore that option more.

[Anonymous]

Have any one here talked to the neutral keeper players lately? They have been making huge changed to their decks. Some of them had added 3 maindeck fetch lands over the cities (I know that has been discussed and rejected). Also there has been a reconsideration of a little card called brainstorm. The logic behind using brainstorm is simply that with 3 more ways of shuffling one's library brainstorm simply rips through one's deck to help find more immediate answers much as impulse does but for the single blue mana. I think to fit copies of this card in the maindeck disenchant effect was finally removed. My logic might be flawed but there are solid reasons for these changes. So basically with the 3 fetch lands and brainstorms the structure of keeper's mana base is much more stable.

[spin13]

Not that it matters greatly, because NGNY isn't the sole source of Keeper wisdom, but they are running 4 fetchlands.  They are mostly cutting green to do so.  And it was their idea (Eric Wilkinson's to be exact) to try Recall.

As for Brainstorm, I don't see the need.  Its about drawing and tutoring for answers, not using search cards for them.  While the idea is to run an answer to deal with everything, you still want to be running actual answers rather than 20 ways to find a single answer.  Notice how Keeper runs Swords, F/I, Edict.  By running multiple sources of spot removal it provides the fabled flexibility.  However, cutting these cards, or any other card that provides any other necessary function in order to play a card that merely finds the remaining answers isn't exactly adding to the flexibility.  I would not play Brainstorm in this deck.

 -Eric

[bebe]

Have you noticed TnT packing Jester's Caps in the side in your area? The theory is that it can remove Wishes, removal and win conditions. It is also useful against combo pieces if KrOathan is sided in. It is just another tool to beat Keeper and is handy in a number of other match ups as well. Is Keeper adjusting to this as well.
BTW, I'm aware that Caps are not popular in TnT sideboards and viewed as inferior to other options but nI have always liked them - I even use them to strip out dual lands.

[Fishhead]

Quote ... they are running 4 fetchlands.

I think all Keeper (and frankly, every multicolored deck) players are testing Fetchlands.  I was planning on starting at 2, but it seems that people are having so much success with them that I may start at 4.  The real trick will be to decide what the correct number is.

Quote Also there has been a reconsideration of a little card called brainstorm.

Hmmm.  I'm a big fan of Impulse, so its not like I'm opposed to more search in the deck, but I really dont think Brainstorm is the optimum choice.  

Sure, its costs only U, but it stalls your deck unless you have some way of shuffling away the 2 cards you put back.  Its great in Gro, where you can Brainstorm and then Land Grant or Sleight, but I'd personally rather see 4 cards for 1U and keep digging than 3 for U and then know what my next two turns are.  On the upside, if you havent used your Mystical, Demonic, Vampiric or Merchant Scroll yet then you can shuffle too in Keeper.  And if you are playing MonoB, you can really help your matchup by protecting vital cards.  Its not like it sucks, but I'd think Impulse is a lot better in this situation.

But, in the big picture, I'm in favor of experimenting with more search.  There was a time when 4 FoF + 4 Impulse + Tutors was just too much, but those days are gone.  

Quote I'm aware that Caps are not popular in TnT sideboards and viewed as inferior to other options but I have always liked them...

I like the Cap fine.  Unfortunately, I think I like it more than it is good if you know what I mean.  Its hard to arrange your sideboard so that it contains 3 Caps and still has room to deal with many of your other matchups.

[j_orlove]

Hmmm...I remember everyone criticizing fetchlands, now everyone uses them. How times change.  


Has anyone tested Future Sight in Keeper? With the extra shuffle effects to get rid of future bad draws, it seems better than ever.


On caps in TnT: they look cool, but I have no room in my SB, and enough trouble as it is siding stuff out.  
Besides, Blood Moon is better  

[Azhrei]

More details on this later, but a TnT deck won VA States Vintage, with Mask taking second. Out of the top eight, four decks were Keeper, and 9th place was Keeper as well, out of 6 total Keeper decks in attendance. There were about 30 people, mostly fully powered stuff. Stacker 2, Sligh, Suicide, UR Ophidian, PT Junk, Parfait, TnT, Enchantress, Keeper... it was a very diverse field, but Keeper still performed better overall than any other deck. Mask was undefeated in the Swiss and the only deck to do so.

Basically, the Keeper players almost all made t8 and then pissed out due to what I like to call "shuffling." Sometimes, your deck will just crap out on you. I ended up beating myself in the t8 since I changed 7 maindeck slots in my Keeper deck and 6 in my SB about two weeks ago (deck MUCH better now with new build, but I am not yet as good with it as the new version needs me to be    ) and made some play errors due to just forgetting that I had certain options that were new to me. Reinventing the wheel 4 L.

So 1/5th of the field was Keeper, and that translated into 1/2 the t8. Call me crazy, but it looks like Keeper and TnT are the decks to beat... which I've been saying for months. Mask is definitely one of the top end tier 2 decks and could easily make tier 1 with a couple helpful cards from yet-to-be-released sets.

Expect major event coverage on Star City in the next week or so.

Incidentally, the decks that I lost to had very little if any hate in them. I beat a guy running EIGHT Miners in his Sligh 2-0, and I beat UR Ophidian in some very intense matches even though Blood Moon resolved TWICE in game three. I lost to Matt D'Avanzo in a Keeper mirror 2-1, and in the t8 to PT Junk because I did something really, really dumb that literally cost me the game, since had I made the correct play I would have won hands down.

For reference:

"The Immortal"

4 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
2 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingeyser
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Morphling

1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismantling Blow
1 CoP: Red

1 The Abyss
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Chainer’s Edict
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Fire/Ice

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Alter Reality
1 Celestial Dawn
1 Allay
1 Aura Fracture
1 Ebony Charm
1 Pyroclasm
1 Peacekeeper
1 Shattering Pulse

As you can see, a LOT has changed, and my inexperience with Cunning Wish is what cost me.

For those of you raising eyebrows at Celestial Dawn: it gives Sligh between 12-20 dead cards in games 2 and 3, and was a 100% MVP in my Sligh matchup. Matt D'Avanzo and I came up with this a month or two ago but kept it quiet until now. Maindecking CoP: Red and boarding Alter Reality is a SliverKing original and it's GREAT. Zuran Orb is much less useful with fewer mana producing lands and was really only good against Sligh anyway. I have full faith in this build and think that it is very close to what Keeper should now be. Any losses I incurred with it were entirely my own fault and had nothing to do with the deck; this version is just more complicated and I wasn't adequately prepared.\n\n

[CrazyCarl]

Blah, I wrote a long reponse, but it got deleted ;|.  Anyways:

Az:
1) How much did you miss green overall?
2) Did 4 Fetchlands seem like too many(I'm thinking 2-3 might be the right number)?
3) How did Allay preform for you?  When I played with it, I think I Wished for it once in about 20-30 games.
4) What do you think of Teferi's Response over the 2nd Misdirection?  With a lower land count(after fetching), I think Response could help out ALOT.
5) How well did the Scrying in the board work out?

Carl

[Azhrei]

1) Not at all.
2) No.
3) It would have been a lot better if I had remembered I had it. I needed it in the t8 and got too hung up on thinking of Cunning Wish as being an REB/StoP split card.
4) I really, really, really want to do that, but it's worse. I may still do it anyway, that being said.
5) It's been golden in other tournaments, but I didn't use it at all in this one.

[BigChuck]

Az, I've got a few questions.
1)How's the shaman in the board been working? I know what it would go in against, but has it been all that useful?
2)Can you explain the city over the fourth volcanic? I just figured that more fetchable lands would be better, though the gaining flexibility might be worth it.
3)Have the two misdirections been good? I've never really liked two in the deck, but your the experienced one, so how've they been?

-Chuck

[Azhrei]

1) Very, very well. I had two main deck but opted for a second Misdirection.

2) It's nice to have a land that taps for everything still, no matter what else. 1-2 Cities are a must still.

3) When someone Hymns, Ancestrals, or Mind Twists, yes. When they topdeck YawgWill, not so much.

[cooberp]

You don't miss Kegs in the SB?  I guess Peacekeeper is your plan against Stompy and you clearly have enough hate aimed at Sligh...

[Maxx Matt]

@azrhei:  i see the "cunned alter reality"/cop.red combo... you played it in a fully powered tournament... how does it perform? sligh can be shutted down in game one too and some (near all... )aggro deck usually inflict damage with a few or only one color, so it is a very good pair of card ( sorry for the english... i'm trying to improve but...  ) for the maindeck...

but my kuestion is... can it be easily supported or constantly casted?  having an almost dead card without the wish (the c.o.p.red ...) in your hand hurted you so much or not?

you cut the green at all, this allowed you to play more fetchland without going screwed alot... have you faced sui or LD decks? have they screwed you easily or not???  even if the fetchlands aid you to cast a spell ( due to the fact that you  sacrifice them at th eright time.... ) and thin your deck, are the increased loss of total mana not so hurting ?( ...i mean... is trying to cast a spell  >  you lost 2 land for 1  )


how the side and the wish improve the mono U matchup ( i'm asking about game 1!!    )


celestial down work well?? ( you use it only for blood moon and BtB or is it in for other porpouses??? )

when you wished for skeletal???  in mono U matchup or other?

how better is the Tnt matchup with this new maindeck configuration?  i play a traditional keeper with the wish as 61 card.... i morphed a bit the side but i don't make it so wish dipendent as you do. the greater  difference is the loss of  Powder kegs .  perhaps i say it because i haven't played yopur deck and i'm not you, but  how can you fell without fear in the aggro(untargetable creatures... )/combo( toons of cheap mana artifact..)  matchup without them?
( NB... i'm not saying that your SB isn't prepared for facing aggro decks... but it seems so TnT/Sui-Hated that i had to ask you about it... i can't resist!!!!  )

moat? NO THANKS!!!!    

i'm glad to see a new keeper without finishing in the stolid impulse/not impulse tread!!!  good work AZ, really... good work

[Azhrei]

@ Cooberp: Kegs have not been working at all, mostly because of Null Rod. Keg was never great against Suicide, Peacekeeper is much better against Stompy, and Sligh is not something I worry about too much. I have the CoP: Red, Dawn, and Shattering Pulse to Wish for if they get Scroll happy.

@ Maxx Matt: CoP: Red takes the place of Zuran Orb, which was really only good against Sligh anyway, but not as good as CoP: Red. With fewer land and only 1 City, Zuran Orb is much less useful. The Alter Reality also smacks REBs in addition to being a fun trick. The CoP: Red has been no worse than getting a Zorb in the wrong match.

The fetchlands have allowed me to be able to get a Wasteland-proof mana source in play that I can sit and wait on... it's VERY nice.

Getting REBs is pretty nice against monoblue.

Celestial Dawn makes REB, Pyroblast, Dwarven Miner, Dwarven Blastminer, Wasteland, Price of Progress, Blood Moon, and Scald all dead cards. In short, after boarding you can literally give a Sligh deck around 16 dead cards to draw-- and sideboarding in Anarchy does nothing but feed Mana Drain or Alter Reality.

I never had a chance to Wish for Skeletal Scrying, but it functions as an un-Misdirectable Stroke for less mana in a control matchup.

The ability to get Ebony Charm, StoP, Shattering Pulse, and possibly even Allay in game one against TnT has been invaluable. Right now I have a favorable playtesting record against it and expect that to continue. The loss of Powder Keg has not hurt me at all yet, as Pyroclasm is a comparable solution which can be Mystical Tutored for and cannot be shut down by Null Rod. The use of the StoPs in the board also help very much as does the ability to Wish for them in game one. All in all, I am much more confident in this Keeper build than I am of any past model, but I will add the caveat that there is a lot that will take some getting used to before I can start to really abuse its potential.

[Maxx Matt]

@azhrei:  ok... thanx for answering soon.  
watch at this:  Az-Keeper & Sui.  you have a good hand. he have a good hand.  nothing special or broken or godish.  he duress you. misd out. he hymn you a bit morph and yawgmoth out... !!!!  pain !!!!  how can you win? concede!...new game! it isn't so unusual... i usually go to 1 or 2 card against a good sui/pox built and it is so bad drawing early the YawgWIn AND/or your REALLY slow Winner against them...

i don't say to reintroduce green in your build but another way to recurr card seems necessary to me.

Again...

Zorb is out... you don't have the BalanceZorb trick-zero land-zero creature-nextturndropMorphOut-WinGame... have you missed it a lot?

Again...

the chainer is a 2 creature loss for your opponent... but i don't think that you plan only to kill Morph in the late game with it...  the sorcery handicap isn't so hoverhelming to come back to the old good Diabolical one ?
i tried a lot the Sorcery MorphKill but i don't find that it is so exciting not being able to INSTANT interfere with you opponet creature's choices ( but in the mirror it is absolutely better than the Diabolical one!!! ...   ... )

again

4 wastes... beatiful!!!
4 polluted... uhm... 3 polluted and the 2 city?  could be better?

again

perhaps i'm too pedant ( i don't know if it is the correct word in English... in italian it sounds as "Pedante" or "Minuzioso" or "Skassakazzi" ...   )

but how do you side against the different matchups ( at least the most frequent ones?

are the wishes sided out game 2and3 or not?

thanx again.

------------------
MAxx MAtt
------------------

NB: yesterday, in italy, there was the Italian Super Stars of Vintage...  if i can i try to summirize the field to underline the diference among europe and US and other state ( i said: "if i can" because i don't play the tourney but i had a great number of friends that prepare a lot thìs event and the field seems really really tought... almost all players are powered all of them are testing HEAVILY the format with the new cards and there are very good player!  

[Azhrei]

Quote (Maxx Matt @ Nov. 03 2002,13:29)@azhrei:  ok... thanx for answering soon.  
watch at this:  Az-Keeper & Sui.  you have a good hand. he have a good hand.  nothing special or broken or godish.  he duress you. misd out. he hymn you a bit morph and yawgmoth out... !!!!  pain !!!!  how can you win? concede!...new game! it isn't so unusual... i usually go to 1 or 2 card against a good sui/pox built and it is so bad drawing early the YawgWIn AND/or your REALLY slow Winner against them...

YawgWill and Morphling in the opening hand? MULLIGAN. Sure, if I kept a terrible opening hand against Suicide and a bad one in general I'd have problems.

[Fishhead]

Quote 1 CoP: Red

Maindeck CoP:Red, a fitting tribute to Jon Finkel.    Though the Wish + Alter Reality pushes it to the next level.  Very nice.

Quote 1 Celestial Dawn

Conversion was the old standard here, it gave Sligh 52 dead cards in games 2 and 3, not a mere 12-20.  Did you consider the Conversion tech?  (My greatest fear with Conversion is the number of Tundras/CoBs I have.  But if I get to 3 sources of W mana, Sligh might as well scoop.)  

I can see some advantages of C-Dawn though, and I'm especially intrigued by Maxx's suggestion to use it against Blood Moon and BtB.  ("Hey, look ma, I'm playing a mono-colored deck too!")  I noticed that you kept the Aura Fracture in the side anyway.  Theories on that?

Quote More details on this later, but a TnT deck won VA States Vintage, with Mask taking second.

So, what did TnT play against in the quarters and semis?  (Obviously, he played Mask in the finals.  

Now that I think about it, did a Keeper make it to the semis?  There were four to start, but, by deduction, the semis must have been TnT, Mask, PT Junk and one other deck.  (Odds are a Keeper, if only because there probably was a Keeper mirror in the quarters.)