Paragon Keeper

[Azhrei]

@Zherbus: LMAO, that is disgusting. Good work!

@Rakso: Blessings were in the best deck in Magic for about two years with the only competition being Necropotence. Soothsaying was cool for about a month or two, then was gone. Oath + Cloudchaser Eagle = dead B2B and blocked Morphling.

@Freddie: I am not an open-minded person on this board because I refuse to claim that all ideas are created equal and operate under that faulty premise. I've experimented with some oddball ideas and have tried things I haven't been completely sure about (Cunning Wish being a prime example) because while I was skeptical, the theory behind the idea (in my example "using my sideboard in game one is good") was sound. Often, as with Cunning Wish, my doubts are unfounded and with some testing the best way to advance comes out and I acknowledge it. I will not, however, give an obviously terrible idea the same kind of consideration because my time is too valuable to me to waste on a red herring.

Similarly, if I ever am found posting ideas that are untested and/or clearly suck, feel free to call me on it at your leisure. The driving motivation behind this forum as I see it is NOT the sharing of new ideas. The goal is the sharing of GOOD ideas, new, old, recycled, or rehashed. If you want to run around all willy-nilly sharing ideas, we have a forum for that. This is the forum for talking about things that will work.

I also think that I've been pretty helpful with my statement and should save dozens of people hours of fruitless playtesting. I give the gift of free time to you all; Merry Christmas!  

[Matt The Great]

There's a difference between "not bothering to try an obviously bad idea" and "berating the person who suggested the idea in the first place." Oscar here seems to take it rather well but not everyone is so cool about it. I know you're not a person who likes to look out for whose toes he's stepping on, but often enough it seems that you're actively looking for new feet to squash.

[Zherbus]

This post will hopefully be the last non-PM mention of this issue on this thread.

You must understand that Oscar is not upset because its not the first time he has discussed this with Darren. Darren has even touched on its cumbersome casting cost in this very thread, so its not like hes holding some secret why he has his view.

Also, one must have somewhat thick skin to a degree when dealing with these type of conflicts. No Flaming, means No Flaming. However, being human and all we tend to react to our friends in a way that would seem harsh towards anyone else. To me, that's not flaming.

For example:

Me: " Hey Spin13, I just cut all my creature removal for basic Counterspells."

Spin13: "You're an idiot, Zherbus. HAHAHA! n00b! "

It's his honest feeling and we tend to display those more with the ones we consider ourselves closer to... in a way. Any ideas that Azhrei doesn't like or doesn't care for, he has mostly not involved himself. Otherwise, it's rare (actually, I can't seem to pinpoint an example, but if someone wants to PM me a solid example or two, then I might revise my statement). Whatever it is, I certainly don't see him hunting down people like the stray animals they are.

Lets keep the rest of THAT topic out of this thread. Dromar's Charm is a 3-color, Red Elemental Blast-able spell that many (read: all but Oscar?) feel is inferior to both Zuran Orb and Faith. If you want to run it, go ahead. If you don't, then lets stop bringing it up. I'm all for beating dead horses but look who has to clean that shit up. It would be a shame if I had to close yet another great thread.

From the Rules Thread:

Quote 4. Angry posts (because a topic was deemed inappropriate from the forum) are off-topic and will probably be deleted. However, intelligent and well-defended post or any subjects are on-topic. As for those questioning this forum's policies, please keep those to THIS thread.

[Matt The Great]

For whatever my vote is worth, as a Keeper opponent Zuran Orb has always seemed more of an obstacle than a six-life shot (or two life and a card) would be. Though my opinion may be clouded by old City-toting Keepers that had real pressure on their life total.\n\n

[walking dude]

notes from the underground:

I don't play keeper, but I do play aggro. I have a long history with suicide, and am currently playing stacker irl and tnt online.

From the aggro perspective, zorb is the card I'm least afraid of. If the keeper player has mana to sac to the zorb it means my disruption has failed and the game was over a long time ago.

Dromars charm also doesn't scare me. I may not be able to keep keeper away from blue, or even away from off colors for the whole game, but any decent aggro deck should ahve enouph disruption to keep away white or black for at least the early game which means dromar won't counter till the late game. By that point dromar can't deal with most threats on the board, suchi, jugg, negator, even rogue ellephant all live through it. So its just a counter or life. If its a counter, then counterspell is better. As for life, see renewed faith.

renewed faith There are times when 5 or 6 life could be a big problem. ex: When a morphling is on the table and I have to burn/scroll for 5 before my offense with creatures is shut down. Most of the time though, all 5 life does is buy one top deck. Negator/jugg is on board swinging and keeper has no answer, 5 life is one swing so they get one top deck. If you cycle faith it gets you closer to that top deck for 2 mana instead of 3. Also, it can get you closer to the topdeck against combo or control.

I think faith is probably best, although I'd rather if people just ran cop red since anything that keeps sligh out of the metagame makes me happy.\n\n

[Rakso]

Jeez, are THAT many people oversensitive?

Quote Lets keep the rest of THAT topic out of this thread. Dromar's Charm is a 3-color, Red Elemental Blast-able spell that many (read: all but Oscar?) feel is inferior to both Zuran Orb and Faith.

Hey, I haven't made it any secret that the main reason I like it is because it stalls games for at least five seconds while an opponent goes into contortions. Anyway, I seem to have the Mikey P-like mise ability to somehow cast it with mana midgame, so it's still fun.

However, on the point that you can REB it, I do wonder if that's a valid objection. Against a control or aggro-control deck, tough. So are your Mana Drains and Forces of Will. However, against Sligh that SBed in REBs, you know that happens when he's siding out burn anyway. There's a lesser need for life gain there, since your main damage is beatdown or Price of Progress. Hell, in one sense, Zuran Orb can be better against the full four Prices since saccing two land causes an 8-life swing.

[K-Run]

I must be missing something, but I can recall people saying a blue card is usually better than a non-blue card because it can be pitched to FoW. Now, Dromar's Charm's being blue is something against it because it can be ReBlasted ?

 

I'll try to reply to myself :

I guess the correct answer is : What would you need to counter if you had Renewened Faith in hand ? Nothing ?\n\n

[Nova]

Being blue IS a strike against a life-gain card because they are mostly in the deck to help against burn-based red aggro.  It's not being blue that is the real reason that dromar's charm isn't optimal though; most everyone agrees that it's the triple colored mana cost.  I tried charm out a bit and it's cute, but not nearly as effective as renewed faith.

We should not play blue life-gain cards because they turn red blasts into R: 5 damage.

[Zharradan]

Quote (Azhrei @ Dec. 28 2002,11:16)The closest I ever came to using a fun card was Teferi's Response, and let me tell you how many times that card BROKE a game for me on turn two, or protected a Library or Factory.

So why was this cut? TR seems genuinely useful, not just "fun". It's cheap, it draws cards, it protects your land, it pitches. Was it simply for lack of room?

[Rakso]

Quote (Nova @ Dec. 28 2002,21:51)Being blue IS a strike against a life-gain card because they are mostly in the deck to help against burn-based red aggro.  It's not being blue that is the real reason that dromar's charm isn't optimal though; most everyone agrees that it's the triple colored mana cost.  I tried charm out a bit and it's cute, but not nearly as effective as renewed faith.

We should not play blue life-gain cards because they turn red blasts into R: 5 damage.

Um... but like I said, since when do you see both heavy burn and REBs against a blue-based control deck?

@Zharradan: Among other things, there are a number of decks that don't use Wastelands.

[Radagast]

The problem with Teferi's Response in my experience is you always draw it the turn after they used their last Wasteland. A possible solution would be running Gush in the sideboard to Wish for, as it does double duty: it lets you Wish for card drawing, and it saves your lands from being Wasted.

[Rakso]

This tech was brought to you by Steven Holeyfield, Nameless on our late Beyond Dominia.



http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=4191\n\n

[Ufactor, the Restricted]

wow, tough room!  props to Zherbus for using "poopchute", " nut hair" and "vagina" all in one post.  mmmm...Tasty

[Azhrei]

Teferi's Response was cut to make room and streamline the deck with fewer conditional cards.

[Nova]

Quote Um... but like I said, since when do you see both heavy burn and REBs against a blue-based control deck?

You are right of course, you won't see both.  But even siding out most of the burn, red decks are still putting pressure on your life total.  Letting them get another good use out of the Red Blasts by denying you your life-gain doesn't sound so good to me.  After all, it's not like you never needed zorb life-gain games 2 and 3, with all the burn gone.

[Rakso]

Quote (Azhrei @ Dec. 29 2002,13:07)Teferi's Response was cut to make room and streamline the deck with fewer conditional cards.

In fairness, it's one of those trademark cards of OSE, I suppose. I think it's memorable.

[Azhrei]

Well, Response is still in OSE because of the Factories-- it just doesn't fit into Keeper anymore, though I wish it did because of how well it treated me.

[Mith]

Out of curiosity, are more people boarding moat vs. peacekeeper?

[Azhrei]

That is 100% situational, and sometimes I use neither. The sideboard has maybe 10 cards that are always there, and then 5 that will change weekly.

[Mith]

Azhrei, what do you consider to be those 10 main cards that always remain in the board?

[TunaBoo]

Quote (Mith @ Jan. 03 2003,00:44)Azhrei, what do you consider to be those 10 main cards that always remain in the board?

Something like

3 REB
1 BEB
1 MisD
1 shattering pulse
1 allay
1 STP
1 Miner

I only got 9

[Zherbus]

No Keeper decks should be running Miner in their sideboards, in my opinion. The format has too many challenging matchups to devote any amount of Keeper hate in the board. Miner is only good against Keeper, against anything else that matters, its just too slow.

Only people running my manabase are generally running the lone BEB. Other than that, Misdirection is a metagame call, as its poor against many popular matchups and you tend to sideboard out your maindeck.

Another choice, particularly in my build is 2 Kegs vs. 1 Keg, 1 Pyroclasm. While many people use the latter configuration, I use 2 Kegs since I find them more helpful in the harder matchups of Mask and Gro.

[Matt The Great]

The tenth is probably Ebony Charm.

EDIT: Damnation, Zherbus' timely post has made me look like a chump, first-class. Revisions have been made, hold onto your seat cushions.\n\n

[Azhrei]

Cards that never leave:

3 REB
2 StoP
1 Aura Fracture
1 Allay
1 Shattering Pulse
2 Powder Keg
1 CoP: Red (if not maindecked)

You couldn't pay me to board a Misdirection or a Dwarven Miner. Well, you could pay me, but it would have to be worth the frustration.

[CrazyCarl]

Gush seems nice and all, but good lord is it alot of lost tempo.  Wastelanding isn't all about destroying the land, it's mostly the tempo advantage you gain from denying them a turn.  By playing Gush, you may have saved your land, but you've also been set back 2 turns rather than 1.  That's why Response was so retarded, it -was- tempo advantage(denying them a land drop etc) and it drew you the 2 cards.  Gush does that yes, but it sets you back a ton.  Too much? I don't know, I haven't tried it because I don't like it too much.

[Azhrei]

Gush has additional synergy with a sideboarded Masticore and can get you to seven cards in hand for LoA in a hurry.

[TunaBoo]

CrazyCarl :


But response is not likely to work. It gets duressed, hymned, or you just get wasted when you tap out to mana drain a key spell. As much as I don't like gush and the tempo loss it causes, it is almost a better way to save your manabase from wastes than response.

[CrazyCarl]

I already knew about the Masticore and Library thing.  I don't really see the need for siding in Masticore, but anyways.  My beef with Gush is the lost tempo.  I just don't see it as worth it.  I have yet to try it, and thanks to Moxen and Mana Drain you can possibly regain that lost tempo, but you only have 4 Moxes and Gush might take away the ability to Drain when you use it early on.  If you're using Gush in the midgame, you already have a decent manabase set up and you really don't care about that lost land and Gush is just a more expensive Teferi's Response that sets you back 2 land drops.  As for using it to refill for Library, that's good, but good enough to use up a slot in your sideboard(and better than Skeletal Scrying) enough of the time.

[Azhrei]

Were you around when I referred to Masticore as Moatsticore? The idea behind using the Gush is that it serves several functions and combos well with one card you DO use, and one card that is very good to use if you use Gush. I really wouldn't run a Gush unless I were running a Masticore in the board as well in a removal slot, and even then it's a matter of experimentation as to whether or not it would be better than Skeletal Scrying (which is a midgame card anyway and costs mana, life, and cards in grave).

[Zelif]

Quote (TunaBoo @ Jan. 04 2003,04:00)CrazyCarl :
But response is not likely to work. It gets duressed, hymned, or you just get wasted when you tap out to mana drain a key spell. As much as I don't like gush and the tempo loss it causes, it is almost a better way to save your manabase from wastes than response.

Uh, but they're not going to Duress/Hymn a Gush? I don't see how Gushing is necessarily all that much better than Response against that kind of deck.

My only point here is that you're saying Response is no good because they will have peeked at/outright Hymned Response away, then offer another card that has no more likelyhood of saving the land/s in question than the first card.

Now, in a different set of circumstances, Gush does do things when Response does not, but in the argument you just offered....


Darren A. Dew
THE UNION