Paragon Keeper

[spin13]

One advantage of Gush over Response is the mana issue.  While you wont be saving something like Library or City with a Gush, you can cast Gush while tapped out.  In the case of Cunning Wish, it makes a difference.  In a case like that, you can Wish in response to a Waste or Sink and with 4 or less mana still save a land with Gush, whereas you need 5 or more to Wish/Response.  If you were to Wish earlier for the Response, then yes, it will get Duressed/Hymned away.

[Ruken]

Going back to the Zuran Orb/Renewed Faith issue here, I think that some 'overteching' here has happened with a lot of players dropping it.  Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, but my Keeper is a lot more solid now that I put Orb back in.  The problem I have with Renewed Faith is that there's an actual mana payment involved.  With Orb on the table you can freely Fact or Fiction at the end of your opponent's turn and not worry about him eradicating your life total completely with three Lightning Bolts.  With Renewed Faith you pretty much have to cast it before going to the Fact or Fiction if your life total starts sinking to dangerous levels (or even moderate levels if they play Fireblast).  

   People complained about Sylvan Library because of the loss of tempo (e.g. you had to wait an entire turn before it was worth anything).  In essence, this is the same way, in a roundabout manner - you lose a turn.  As far as the cycling aspect of it goes, great - but I rarely cycle Fire/Ice, and I feel that tapping a permanent is usually more useful than gaining 2 life.  At least by playing Ice you can regain the tempo lost from paying 2 mana by tapping a Negator, or forcing a spell through by tapping an untapped land, or tapping a Winter Orb against Stacker2

   And with the copious amounts of land in Keeper, sacrificing one land every turn or two hasn't been a real problem for me.

[Dozer]

Quote (Ruken @ Jan. 08 2003,16:26)And with the copious amounts of land in Keeper, sacrificing one land every turn or two hasn't been a real problem for me.

That's really the point, isn't it? The formerly copious amount of Lands isn't there anymore. And the precious little that is left over goes into Dust Bowl most of the time. I, for one, don't feel like I have the lands anymore to use ZOrb effectively. Most of the time I had to sacrifice so much land anyway that I barely had enough mana left to cast the spell to save me.
Just look at what is left in Keeper's land bases. 20 - 21 lands, of which 3 or 4 are fetchlands and another 3 or 4 are Strips and Dust Bowl. Both don't tend to stick around long enough to get sacc'ed (exept for Bowl, maybe), so there are just 13 - 14 lands left to go into ZOrb.

Also, "sacrificing one or two lands every turn" does not sound good to me. Do that for three turns, and you'll have no mana left. You could as well just cast Renewed Faith in the first turn and spend the other two looking for answers while still having the lands to play them.
One Renewed Faith can negate one attack from TnT, for example. To do the same with ZOrb, you'd have to sack three lands. That'd be crippling, especially since these attacks come early in the game, when you are dependent on the few lands you found so far.

Dozer

[TunaBoo]

Does 6 life matter enough? For less mana spent gaining 6 life, I could STP a juggy. That will save me 5 life a turn, in 2 turns it will “gain me 10”.

As all constructed players know, generally lifegain is fundamentally bad. You gain no board position, spend cards, and all you do is gain a little life. Sure, against sligh it negates 2 bolts (which is a nice advantage). But most of the time, a life gain spell is pretty bad to board position.

Yes I agree, keeper sometimes does just need a little boost to get past the initial wave of attacks. Sometimes renewed faith can do this. But I really on a fundamental level do not like playing lifegain effects.

Zorb is not just a simple life gainer. Not only is it free, it does tricks with balance and saclands when you don’t need mana. It turns sinkholes and wastelands into lifegain. I set this in the category of utility, while renewed faith is just a life gain spell.

I might cut zorb some day, but I will not personally run renewed faith in it’s place.

I really am tempted to look for a new jank way to get past the initial of aggro decks. One of these days I am going to run a stasis in my zorb spot at a tourney    Not like that is a real answer, but it’s funny. I am still looking for the card to replace zorb, but I haven’t found it yet.

[Rico Suave]

I've been running Renewed Faith, and it works wonders against everything non-aggro.  I'd rather draw it over Zorb against most anything, even TnT.

That aside, it's 6 life which keeps me alive against aggro.  It works for me.  If I'm in the lead, I can cycle it into answers, which is a real kick in the nuts for them.

I don't have problems interfering with FoF (or much else I'd cast at end of turn).  If I were to cast Renewed Faith at EOT, it'd be at the end of the turn where I have 3 mana, whereas FoF would be at the end of turn where I have 4 mana.  

Sinkholes and Wastelands still hurt, even under Zorb.  I'd certainly rather have that land back than gain 2 life.  

The only tricks I can think of which are really useful regarding Zorb:
1) Losing land to stay under Land Tax
2) Negating one Donation of Illusions of Grandeur
3) Balance, saccing land

About those...
1) Losing a land still sucks, and it's a huge loss of tempo.  I'd just rather play around Land Tax from the beginning
2) Renewed Faith does the same trick while giving a draw.  
3) I like my land, and don't prefer to sac it because I also like casting my spells, especially now that I topdeck less land due to fetchlands

Basically, I just don't like the "utility" of Zorb.  I'd rather have the utility of my next topdeck.

[Dozer]

Quote Does 6 life matter enough? For less mana spent gaining 6 life, I could STP a juggy. That will save me 5 life a turn, in 2 turns it will gain me 10.

That's not the point. That implies you'd play StoP over either Zuran Orb and Renewed Faith.
And yes, 6 Life matters enough. Two Bolts, Three Pups, one Juggernaut, half a Dreadnought - it's mostly sufficient.

Quote As all constructed players know, generally lifegain is fundamentally bad. You gain no board position, spend cards, and all you do is gain a little life. Sure, against sligh it negates 2 bolts (which is a nice advantage). But most of the time, a life gain spell is pretty bad to board position.

Now look at what zuran Orb does for your board position. I know about all the points you bring up in favour of ZOrb, and I'm not going to refute them. ZOrb does a couple of neat tricks.
But where any lifegain spell does nothing for your board, Zuran Orb makes it worse. So the only reason to keep ZOrb would be the utility - which was (for me) only a byproduct of the lifegain, which was the primary reason for ZOrb. And Renewed Faith has also built-in-utility in form of the Cycling.
I'd agree not play a Spell whose only function is life-gain, but Renewed Faith is no Congregate, just as Fire/Ice is not a Pyroclasm for Jackal Pups.

Oh, and if you are looking for a substitute, why not check out 's Charm?   

Dozer

[Freddie]

Would the Paragons agree that IF you exsisted in a metagame full of aggro 90% or more, that Zorb is better?

Nothing says loving like a balance + Zorb sacking all or almost all land giving you (Hopefully) a permanate advantage (a mox or 2) + Arma-Wratha-Twisting and also gaining a butload of life back... thus sometimes sealing the game with an insurmountible advantage over yout opponent, whom now has no creatures, no, or few lands, no or few cards in hand, and has another 10-14 points or so to overcome on the other side of the table in life total defecit?

If think that Renewed Faith sounds great in a mixed meta, but for me in an almost all aggro-ish enviornment, it (Zorb) just seems to make a bigger impact on the game then the Renewed faith would, or could.

-Freddie

[Zherbus]

The Paragons each have individual opinions, and mine is that ZOrb is useful against that sort of field. Renewed Faith intrigues me because of the possibility of having one less dead card against many matchups. I think that much of the time Renewed Faith is enough, but against the faster aggro decks, Zuran Orb over Faith will often be the deciding factor.

Also, consider my build with 2 Islands. Running more colorless and blue spells in my deck is easier to run the manabase on. I think that if the cycling on Renewed Faith was colorless only, I wouldn't be having such a hard time with the choice.

[TunaBoo]

If you are going the cycling route to get to the good stuff faster, have you considered other cycling cards?

Slice and Dice:
Text (ON): ~this~ deals 4 damage to each creature. ; Cycling . ; When you cycle ~this~, you may have it deal 1 damage to each creature.

In something like a powder keg slot. It mows down the elfs and goblins pretty well, and hardcast it is a 6 mana wrath of god. *shrug*


Or something like
Or Clear:
Text (US): Destroy target enchantment. ; Cycling

Or the standby
Expunge:
Text (US+errata): Destroy target nonartifact, nonblack creature. It can't be regenerated. ; Cycling


Or if you see lots of TnT
Rapid Decay:
Text (UD): Cycling . ; Remove from the game up to three target cards in a single graveyard.

Cheaper than wish + ebony, and can be maindecked with no problem.


Has anyone tried the whole cycling thing besides rewenewed faith? There are some pretty interesting cyclers...

[Azhrei]

Because none of those cards gain life if you need it. Renewed Faith is LIFEGAIN that is never dead, not "random other effect" that cycles.

[TunaBoo]

Quote (Azhrei @ Jan. 11 2003,14:24)Because none of those cards gain life if you need it. Renewed Faith is LIFEGAIN that is never dead, not "random other effect" that cycles.

But they all do something useful.

Many matches you don't need life, life is worthless. So you cycle it.

So why not use other random effects that cycle?

I dunno, I guess I am trying to in a roundabout way prove that as neat as cycling is, you don't really need it and are better off without it. This is obviously my puny opinion, and I will shut up about the topic now.


Rico: How does an extra swords not buy you time against fast aggro?

[Rico Suave]

Quote (TunaBoo @ Jan. 11 2003,16:06)So why not use other random effects that cycle?

Because that slot's primary purpose is life-gain against fast aggro.  It buys time and it gives more time to put mana on the table to cast your game-breaking spells.

It doesn't want to be random things.  Cycling is something to do when life-gain isn't necessary.

[Zherbus]

Quote I dunno, I guess I am trying to in a roundabout way prove that as neat as cycling is, you don't really need it and are better off without it. This is obviously my puny opinion, and I will shut up about the topic now.

I see where you were going, however life gain is not only the topic, but the problem. Keeper needs life gain against many matchups, and not narrow random effects. Cycling just so happys to work for alot of people, so it's a subject of circumstance rather than a revolutionary method to build Keeper.

As for your comment about Swords vs. Life gain, how do you come to that conclusion? Life Gain, Faith or ZOrb, buys time against aggro thats not TnT. You cant STP a Price of Progress, can you? If TnT was the only aggro deck in the world, you would have a point. I don't know what random people play on the internet, but I know I will see 2-3 budget aggro decks for each TnT deck at least.

Also, if you are going to get that emotional (you know, the whole "You probably think I suck, so I'm going to be overly sensitive and insert little comments in my posts." thing) about conversing in the forum, this is obviously not the place for you.

[routedashf]

Here's a couple thoughts about life gain possibilities:

Ivory Tower

This was the staple life gain back when "keeper" was Brian Weissman's blue/white deck.

Is it useful anymore?  Between pitching spells for force / mis-D, instant removal for fast threats, and losing tempo by holding cards to gain life, it may seem marginal.  However, over a couple turns early in the game, it can gain more than the six life of Renewed Faith.  

Don't like Ivory Tower?  How about...

Mirror Universe

With the updated rulings due to 6th edition rules and timing, this isn't a win condition, of course.  But against decks that hardly damage themselves but punish the Keeper player quickly, such as mask or tnt, this might help.  It certainly takes preparation and might be too slow, but going from 2-8 life to 20 can swing the tempo back to the control player.  

Are these two ideas too antiquated for the current Type 1 metagame in general?  Or could they work?  Or am I just throwing them out there because I have an English Mirror and Antiquities Tower that I'm trying to find an excuse to use?

[Azhrei]

Unfortunately, the Tower is just too slow now, and Mirror....

Well, if they'd had the human decency to errata the thing so it was somehow still a kill mechanism I'd run it, but as such they completed ruined one of my favorite cards ever. I'd be SO happy if it were fixed to be a kill method because then I wouldn't even have to think twice about using it.

[CrazyCarl]

The fact of the matter is, Renewed Faith uses mana on the crucial turns 1/2/3 where you need to be casting removal and some counters to take care of their threats.  MANY people will play it this way, and in this situation, Zuran Orb is superior(against say Sligh) because it lets you cast stuff and still use it if need be.  The thing is are you confident enough in the Sligh matchup to -not- run Zuran Orb?  The fact that it influences what their Price of Progresses can do(their best card against you obviously) which makes it worth running in my book.  And the fact that's it's really not BAD in other aggro matchups(against TnT or Mask, 3 or so lands will buy you another turn to draw Balance or something).  All lifegain does is buy us time, but I think that Zuran Orb does enough against sligh alone to warrent it's inclusion in the MD.  In other matchups Renewed Faith is obviously better, but I don't think It's worth it to weaken my matchup against Sligh(coupled with the fact I don't seem to be losing against -anything- recently).

Why oh WHY can't Zuran Orb cycle ;(

[cooberp]

I always found my Zorb got Monkeyed on sight.

[Zherbus]

I always held my Zuran Orb until I needed it, or have cleared out any Shamans. It's not like Sligh runs anything that threatens your hand.

[Rico Suave]

I usually find a place to squeeze in Renewed Faith at some point or another in the sligh match.  The cc isn't too bad.

Zorb is better against sligh than Renewed Faith, but 6 life without losing any lands is still a kick in the crotch for sligh either way you look at it.    

What about every other match?  Against what other decks would you rather have Zorb over Renewed Faith?  Against what decks would you rather have Renewed Faith over Zorb?  Now which ones are your hardest matches?

[Zherbus]

I kinda hit this earlier, Rico. Changing Zuran Orb for Renewed Faith may ADD to the roster of harder matchups. Right now, I fear Sligh and Zoo a whole lot less and they are two decks (if you count R/G beats as Zoo) that are more common then the matchups you are trying to improve.

If I get rid of ZOrb, a card that has gained more than 6 life in those very matchups, then I could very well just add new matchups to my list of hardest matchups. It's really the whole reason why I haven't made my mind up beyond it being a metagame call.

[Azhrei]

See, the ONLY time I ever really got much out of Zuran Orb was against Sligh, but then I started running CoP: Red which pretty much helped hand me game one. Then all the Sligh decks dried up, but since it was the only deck I really liked Zuran Orb against I looked for a compromise card and found it in Renewed Faith. I don't necessarily advocate it over Zuran Orb all the time, but if the Zuran Orb slot has been a dead draw to you often enough, Faith is something to try that gives you a life boost without ever being fully dead. It's not the best card in the world in a field with heavy Sligh, but if there's NOT much Sligh then Faith makes tons more sense to me.

[CrazyCarl]

So, my conculsions are:

Random Field: Run Zuran Orb

Local Metagame /w Sligh: Run Zuran Orb

Local Metagame w/o Sligh: Run Renewed Faith

There's really only one(though possibly soon 2) people who run Sligh in Binghamton lately, so I might run Renewed Faith for a little while.  However, at say, a tourney in Boston or New Hapshire or New Jersey, I think i'd stick with Zuran Orb.

[Azhrei]

To me, it's really more like:

Unknown: Zuran Orb if you have NO idea, CoP: Red if you can assume Sligh.

Known Local w/ Sligh: CoP: Red

Known Local w/o Sligh: Renewed Faith

[TunaBoo]

Quote
From Zherbus:
As for your comment about Swords vs. Life gain, how do you come to that conclusion? Life Gain, Faith or ZOrb, buys time against aggro thats not TnT. You cant STP a Price of Progress, can you? If TnT was the only aggro deck in the world, you would have a point. I don't know what random people play on the internet, but I know I will see 2-3 budget aggro decks for each TnT deck at least.

I see budget aggro as well. Vs. Sui it kills a shade or a spector. The shade can do 6 damage in 1 hit, and the spector can do some serious damage quickly. I personally see a lot of sligh moving towards pile driver sligh, in which case taking out any goblin will save you 6 damge over a few turns. But I agree if it comes down to topdeck mode and they have an active scroll out, life gain is what will buy you the most time (although not as much as a disenchant or cunning wish for one).

Quote
Also, if you are going to get that emotional (you know, the whole "You probably think I suck, so I'm going to be overly sensitive and insert little comments in my posts." thing) about conversing in the forum, this is obviously not the place for you

I am not an experienced T1 Guru like a lot of people here. I have played in 2 real life t1 tournies, which I may have won but, I don't want to act like I am right and all the vintage adepts are wrong. Sorry if the wording I use somehow degraded this forum. I am just trying to contribute something to the cause.

[Ruken]

Granted, I haven't played against a lot of decks that give me little room to breathe (I'm deathly afraid of the new Ankh-Sligh), but Zuran Orb has stretched a lot of games out into  winning territory for me.  Sure, I lost some of them due to being overwhelmed and running out of land, but without Orb I would have lost ALL of them, so no big deal.    It's free delay, and I like that.

Let's talk about solidifying Keeper against aggro, though - Grim Monolith + Power Artifact .. I can't say enough good stuff about it.  The deck has been way more solid than it should be now that it's in there.

[Nevyn]

I apologize for the OT post, but wouldn't it make sense to archive this and start a new thread of Paragon Keeper part 2. 11 pages is a lot to wade through.