TnT Sideboard

[Smmenen]

TnT is poised to be in position to be the top type one deck right now.  It is an absolutely amazing deck.  

But looking through Morphling.de and through the threads here I am convinced that these SBs can be improved upon.
Take a look.

Castricum08.09.2002
Sebastian Kaul 2nd Place SB:
3 Artifact Mutation
2 Compost
2 Elvish Lyrist
2 Emerald Charm
1 Flametongue Kavu
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt

8. Benjamin Ribbeck
3 Artifact Mutation
2 Compost
2 Druid Lyrist
2 Emerald Charm
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt

Dülmen 25.08.2002
2. Daniel Derieth
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Bottle Gnomes
1 Druid Lyrist
2 Emerald Charm
1 Flametongue Kavu
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt

Top 8 Decks from: Dülmen 21.07.2002
1. Benjamin Ribbeck
3 Artifact Mutation
2 Elvish Lyrist
2 Emerald Charm
1 Flametongue Kavu
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt

Top 8 Decks from: Dülmen 23.06.2002
1. Thomas Elgert
3 Artifact Mutation
2 Elvish Lyrist
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Thunderscape Battlemage
2 Tormod's Crypt

3. Sascha Kibben
2 Blood Moon
2 Compost
2 Elvish Lyrist
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Uktabi Orangutan

4. Benjamin Ribbeck
3 Artifact Mutation
1 Decimate
2 Druid Lyrist
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt

Those are the German Versions, look what we have here:

Top 4), @ Mile High Comics, Thornton Co.
Sideboard:
2 Jester's Cap
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Emerald Charm
2 Naturalize
2 Bottle Gnomes
2 Powder Keg
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast  
1 Masticore

winner of the VA States Type 1.
Sideboard:
2 Jester's Cap
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Emerald Charm
2 Naturalize
2 Bottle Gnomes
1 Masticore
1 Flametongue Kavu

JDL's:
 Bottle Gnomes
1 Triskelion
3 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Artifact Mutation
3 Hull Breach
4 Red Elemental Blast

J Orlove's Analysis:
What I find really interesting is the SBs:
Collectively, we have:

11 Red Elemental Blast
6 Bottle Gnomes
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Emerald Charm
2 Naturalize
1 Masticore
2 Flametongue Kavu
2 Jester's Cap
2 Elvish Lyrist
1 Scavenger Folk
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Triskelion
3 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Artifact Mutation
3 Hull Breach

That breaks down to:
14 creatures
11 REBs
9 artifact removers (2 are creatures)
13 enchantment removers (2 are creatures)
7 graveyard hosers
2 Jester's Caps

the remaining 10 creatures break down to:
6 bottle gnomes
4 big anti-creature guys

So the "average" SB looks like
~4 REBs
2 bottle gnomes
~3 other creatures:
    ~1 big guy (FTK, Core, or Trisk)
    ~2 "utility" guys (lyrist, s-folk, sex monkey)
~2 graveyard hate cards
~4 other "utility" spells
    ~2 other enchantment hosers
    ~3 other artifact removers (these 2 overlap)

So is this an "ideal" TnT SB?

Stephen  Menendian\n\n

[cooberp]

TnT is not the top deck in type one--nor, I think, can an aggro deck ever be unless it can beat combo decks.

[Smmenen]

Ok, that was partly off topic - but partly relevant but also flawed.  TnT *can* beat combo decks - but that doesn't mean it does so consistently or against certain combo decks.  One big reason, among many, is to explore the TnT sideboard is precisely the issue you brought up - dealing with combo decks.

What do we have:
Academy - various versions
Squirrels
Turboland
Reanimator
Aluren (which really doesn't exist in t1 yet)
Illusions Donate Variants
Power Artifact
WorldGorger

and a few other Combo decks like Pebbles and so forth.

When you think about it, these really aren't that scary for various reasons, among others:
1) These decks don't fill *real* t1 tournaments in significant numbers.
2) They are extremely diverse in how to disrupt them
3) many are bad.

There are many solutions to the problems that some of these decks might present.  It will take creative thinking - I have in mind a whole bunch of cards - but I'll say what I've got as soon as we get the ball rolling here.

[cooberp]

You really think that TnT can take even 20% after boarding from pure speed combo decks like Academy?  If so, please do let me know what you would do.  Sure, REBs and Mox Monkey help, but decks that consistently draw four new hands in the first two turns if they don't run into countermagic don't really give you much of a chance to set up.  Plus, even if you do counter a key spell, it will still take you three or four turns to kill them, during which time you just have to pray they don't topdeck a card drawer (of which there are what 19?).  Just what Can an aggro deck like TnT do to turn combo from "impossible" to "unfavorable?"  If you can find stuff, I'll completely revise how I think about Type One.

[Smmenen]

1. I think Turboland is probably a worse matchup for TnT than Academy, and Turboland is slower than academy.  

2. I think it might be an exaggeration to say that Academy gets four new hands in the first two turns - they I would agree two new hands - but remember, alot of their card drawing isn't just 7 - alot is Meditate and so forth.  TnTs very effective use of Waste/strips and Shaman/Karn should slow down the Academy deck alot.

3.   I never claimed a number - I just said that it can win at least sometimes.  And yes I think TnT can go over 20% against Academy, like 21% or more.  

4. There are several cards that come to mind.  I think Gorilla Shaman with alot of mana open is a house. One card that TnT might be able to SB  in to shut down combo decks is Arcane Laboratory.  It is used against Extended Aluren quite effectively.  There are more.

But overall, REB plus Mox Monkey plus Arcane Laboratory should be plenty to say I win without slowing down TnT too much.


Stephen Menendian

[Lord of the Goats]

blood moon is the key to beating combo imo. it muliganing into blood moon is a viable stratagy vs combo, and most combo will straight up scoop to it.

[r3as0n]

@cooberp : I think Smmenen's goal here is to generate discussion about the possibly SB options for TnT to make it overall more effective. That's not to say that it will make TnT's match-up vs Academy or Turboland anything less than very bad, but they were very very bad to begin with. If the options discussed here only add 1-5% win percentage against a general field of combo, maybe they wouldn't be worth it and TnT's board will stay focused on significantly improving other match-ups instead.

The only card that I can think of right now would be Arcane Lab. It still allows you to do Welder/Survival Tricks and the more important effect of only 1 spell per turn. I like the idea, but I think Smmenen hit the nail on the head: "1) These decks don't fill *real* t1 tournaments in significant numbers." (in reference to combo decks)

I would have to agree with that analysis and I wonder since they don't show up in great numbers if the extra slots in the SB to get a marginally higher win percentage would even be worth the slots. Peace.

 

[doublej20]

Quote (Smmenen @ Dec. 04 2002,11:23)1. I think Turboland is probably a worse matchup for TnT than Academy, and Turboland is slower than academy.  

2. I think it might be an exaggeration to say that Academy gets four new hands in the first two turns - they I would agree two new hands - but remember, alot of their card drawing isn't just 7 - alot is Meditate and so forth.  TnTs very effective use of Waste/strips and Shaman/Karn should slow down the Academy deck alot.

3.   I never claimed a number - I just said that it can win at least sometimes.  And yes I think TnT can go over 20% against Academy, like 21% or more.  

4. There are several cards that come to mind.  I think Gorilla Shaman with alot of mana open is a house. One card that TnT might be able to SB  in to shut down combo decks is Arcane Laboratory.  It is used against Extended Aluren quite effectively.  There are more.

But overall, REB plus Mox Monkey plus Arcane Laboratory should be plenty to say I win without slowing down TnT too much.


Stephen Menendian

Smmenen, have you actually playtested TnT vs. combo, or are you merely theorizing? I think a couple of your points are flawed, and I'll explain why below on a point by point basis.

2. I have been playing with TnT for a while, and the Academy match is TERRIBLE, especially if they go first. I don't know an exact card listing, but the Academy deck I played against in the T1 tournament at GP-LA was played skillfully by my opponent, and he probably DID draw 4 hands or more by the time I would have gotten my second turn (assuming he didn't kill me by then). We played a number of games, and I won exactly ONE of them. I have 12 cards against Academy (4 REB, 3 Jester's Cap, 3 Blood Moon, 2 Tormod's Crypt), and even in the event that you REB one of the draw spells such as Timetwister or Time Spiral or Windfall, they most likely WILL kill you by topdecking unless you manage to use a Cap or get Blood Moon to resolve.

4. I thought Gorilla Shaman or Karn with open mana was good against Academy, but it's really not. I got them out a couple of games vs the aforementioned Academy player and killed a few Moxes, but that only gets another turn at best. Arcane Laboratory isn't as good as Blood Moon against Academy because they will most likely bounce it with Capsize then go about their merry way. It's practically worthless against AoS (example: 1st turn Land, Mox, Earthcraft. 2nd turn Land, Squirrel Nest, end of your turn make a million tokens, die a horrible death during their main phase). Against Pandeburst Blood Moon would be a better option as well, as they have no non-basics and can kill by casting single cards on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th turns.

5. REB and Shaman and Arcane Lab will NOT win you a game against a good Academy or AoS deck. It might be decent against TurboNev, but that's about it. With my testing I've found the only ways to win against Combo are use Jester's Cap or drop Blood Moon 1st turn (and even this does little against AoS).

My new SB will probably look like this:
2 Jester's Cap (I actually play one main deck)
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Viashino Heretic (mirror)
2 Tormod's Crypt (Worldgorger, Oath, etc)
2 Naturalize
1 Elvish Lyrist (2 MD)
3 Blood Moon

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I'm with Lord of the Goats on this one, most good and, especially important, regularly played combo decks consist of only very few basic lands. So in my oppinion Blood Moon is the way to go against them. It doesn't matter that you'll be not able to Survival many times, as they just don't have any shot at winning with mountains only.

[Radjammin]

Now I only speaking of the past, but during High Tide Extended season Sphere of Resistance was used effectivly vs combo decks.  It being an artifact makes me think it would fit nicely into the Anti combo groove of TNT.

Kinda Hard for a combo deck to go off under a mini Nether Void.

I would expect an assortment of Caps and Spheres would do in most combo decks, they would also fit easier into the existing TnT framework.  3 non artifact spell mana is hard to come by playing TnT, esp early in the game.

[Siral]

With the mana explosion that TnT can have in first 2 turn why dont use 4 jester's cap in sideboard to kill combo decks?

I've never seen a combo deck win a game after a successful jester's cap (and TnT can recur the cap)

[Vegeta2711]

If you wanted your SB to be very focused against combo and still have some slots devoted to other things, I would probably run something like this.

(Assuming you run none MD)
~Dismantling Combo
4 Blood Moon
2 Jester's Cap
2 Tormod's Crypt (Dragon and mirror)
~Help vs control
4 REB
2 Naturalize
~Mirror
1 FTK

But, unless you run 10-12 cards SB. I really doubt this will raise any combo match-ups more than at most 10% or so. Combo simply man handles TnT (Just like all aggro) and always will, ultimately you just have to get lucky and mull aggresively.

And Sphere of Resistance seems kind of cool, never tried it myself though. Much like Tangle Wire I still stay away from a lot of the mana lock functions some people run in TnT.

[Radjammin]

Quote (Siral @ Dec. 04 2002,16:26)With the mana explosion that TnT can have in first 2 turn why dont use 4 jester's cap in sideboard to kill combo decks?

I've never seen a combo deck win a game after a successful jester's cap (and TnT can recur the cap)

They do usually run mult Caps.  But on a good hand of Workshop and Mox  The Cap probaby won't be used untill next turn.

Workshop Sphere means they have to pay 1 even for their moxes.  Do you guys know thouse tire locks Meter Maids put on a car to imobilize it?  That's kinda what you just did to the combo player. The fun starts when you watch them gimp threw their turn, on their good leg.

[Azhrei]

Jester's Cap is just awful, awful. It's the kind of thing that works once in a blue moon, but just often enough to keep some people using them. It has the significant drawback of sometimes being utterly worthless and being situational as hell. I would strongly recommend against Cap as a serious sideboard card.

[FeverDog]

I honestly think TNT's best shot vs Academy is to board Null Rod, while it does hurt you, it KILLS them. Of course, it wont help you vs TurboLand, Reaplace or WGDragon and you probably wont draw it enough to give you better than 25% vs Academy. Combo rapes aggro, all types of aggro, and i dont see TNT changing that trend.

[cooberp]

Az, do you think TnT has any chance against good combo decks?  If so, how would you approach building a sideboard?

[LoA]

As a general rule of thumb, I only run "one-ofs" in the sideboard when I have some means of tutoring for it.  This works out great for decks like Keeper and requires tons of redundanc for decks like Sligh.  TnT is somewhere in the middle, since it can fetch creatures with a decent amount of ease.

Sphere of Resistance struck me as a decent idea, and along those lines you might want to consider Spiketail Drake.  Less flexible than the Sphere, but easier to find.  On one level, it really depends how much sideboard space you have to play around with.

[Azhrei]

@Cooberp: I think TnT's best bet in the combo matchup is the fact that a good player with a decent hand can swing for lethal damage in their second attack phase at times, and more often than not in their third. This means that any combo deck needs to be able to pull out a win on their third turn, which is less likely these days. Survivaling for Shaman is a good way to slow them down as well and find you time for that extra turn. As far as boarding goes, I think the normal REBs and maybe some Crypts would be the best bet.

Repeat: Jester's Cap is bad. No one should use it outside of casual or the 1995 "Concede or Bleed" deck.

[Maxx Matt]

@Az: If I'm a good TnT player I shall be able to recur 4 Cap/1 Jar/4 Crypt enough to force my opponent to concede.  I'm not mentioning to win both with creature and caps against combo, just to add 4 cap, 4 reb, 4 crypt (for example, not sure about the quantity ), siding out some utilities or bad creatures and win with these.

With a so fast ARTIFACT mana producer deck it could be very very effective...  
I'll give it a try in my test sessions  

Edited for readability -Zherbus


-------------
Maxx Matt
-------------

[FeverDog]

@Maxx

Its not a matter of how often you can recur Cap, its whether you will even get to cast it at all. Cap is slow, unless you have an amazing Mox-laden opening, you wont be able to cast it until turn 3 and activate on turn 4. This is too slow vs combo, they will have killed you already.

[Fishhead]

Quote Cap is slow, unless you have an amazing Mox-laden opening, you wont be able to cast it until turn 3 and activate on turn 4.

I think you are forgetting that TNT runs Mishras Workshop and thus can cast artifacts quickly.  Turn 3 seems like a very odd estimate.  

But anyway, Feverdog is right that a combo deck will kill you on turn 3-4 if you dont interfere with it.  The real implication here is that you have to draw the Cap in your first 10 cards or you will lose.  That means that you'd like to run 6 Caps (60/10=6 .  

I suppose this holds true for all measures including Blood Moon; so perhaps there is a plan: 3 Blood Moon + 3 Caps = 6.  To me though, this is too much SB real-estate.  I cant afford to devote 6 slots to a single, uncommon matchup.  (If I expect a lot of Combo, I'll bring Keeper and really give them something to worry about.)

If you have a good plan for using 4 Caps or 4 Blood Moons in other matchups, then I can see going down this path.  But thats the problem; there's a pretty tight set of matchups where these cards are really good.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (Fishhead @ Dec. 05 2002,12:43)But anyway, Feverdog is right that a combo deck will kill you on turn 3-4 if you dont interfere with it.  The real implication here is that you have to draw the Cap in your first 10 cards or you will lose.  That means that you'd like to run 6 Caps (60/10=6 .  

I suppose this holds true for all measures including Blood Moon; so perhaps there is a plan: 3 Blood Moon + 3 Caps = 6.  To me though, this is too much SB real-estate.  I cant afford to devote 6 slots to a single, uncommon matchup.  (If I expect a lot of Combo, I'll bring Keeper and really give them something to worry about.)

If you have a good plan for using 4 Caps or 4 Blood Moons in other matchups, then I can see going down this path.  But thats the problem; there's a pretty tight set of matchups where these cards are really good.

cap is beating against keeper, parfait, mask, and combo. keeper is pretty commonly played (at least in my experence), mask is on the rise, as is parfiat due to tnt. obviously if you don't see those matchups you don't need to devote board slots.

i think the 3 blood moon, 3 cap approach is what i'm leaning toward in my tnt build. i already run moons main so that's not an issue... the caps should solve my problem matchups. people have reported very good results with them

[Maxx Matt]

i play type 1 in italy in a specific metagame where Powered Control ( keeper like decks ) and Powered Combo (Multicolored-Trix ) are  the 50% of the field and the other decks are bad aggro ( monored, monoblack, old zoo... ) and the best player here play the COntrol and Combo.

With these opponents in mind, if i would play TnT in this field, i must consider beating 3 or 4 of them each tournament, only to have the possibility to be among the top 4 player...

so, keeping this idea in my mind, i assemble this sideboard:

4 Jester's Cap
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormond's Crypt
2 Naturalize
1 Flametongue Kavu

in the last tournament i face ( i play  Paragon Keeper; my final results 3 win, 0 loss, 2 draw.... it perform very very well... good job Paragon's Team  ), as usual , keeper and combo, so, if i would have played TnT i think that a Side done as the last that i propose, would have performed very well!!!

@ Fever Dog:the first Jester's Cap played Against Combo usually arrive on turn 2... workshop and some mana acceleration aren't so difficult to achieve. And on game 2 or 3, if my opponent is playing COmbo, i can Mulligan to have a better ( if not ideal ... ) hand.

 

against combo i usually side:

+4 Jester Cap
+4 Reb
+3 Cript

-4 Juggernaut
-1 Wonder
-4 Survival
-1 Lyrist
-1 Uktabi ( i have the Shaman in too )

i test it only in private sessions against Keeper and NeoAcademy and it perform well. It isn't so slow but implies a radical change of the deck on game 2 and 3

what do you think?



@ Zherbus:  sorry for bad posting.  i'll be more carefull  


---------------
Maxx Matt
---------------

[FeverDog]

Sure you CAN play a Cap on the first or second turn, the deck is capable of that. But you have to realize you are not going to have that happen every game, i think if you test it, you will see turn 3 will be the average. Remember its not just about having the Workshop, you have to draw a Cap in your first 10 cards as Fishead noted.

Also, Cap is NOT a good sb card vs Keeper, they will counter it at least 90% of the time. Plus, even if you resolve one Cap and remove 2 Morphlings and a Stroke, they can still deck you with Geyser or Wish back the Stroke.\n\n

[Fishhead]

Quote But you have to realize you are not going to have that happen every game, i think if you test it, you will see turn 3 will be the average.  

Quote Also, Cap is NOT a good sb card vs Keeper, they will counter it at least 90% of the time

You throw out these numbers with a lot of confidence, but I'm not sure I've ever seen you post a report about playing TnT (or Keeper for that matter!).  Not to be mean, but where is this data coming from??

I suppose I should caculate the exact odds of either of these occurrances, but the Simpsons are on.  Maybe when I get back.  

[FeverDog]

@Fishead

Keeper and TNT are the two decks i play the most, both online and irl. I havent seen that many Caps played against me, thats true, but i dont need that to realize certain facts.

Saying that you usually wont be able to get a Cap into play in the first two turns isnt exactly a leap, i dont need complicated math to figure it out. As for the chances of Keeper countering it, the 90% is obviously a token figure, but im pretty sure its close to the truth. I dont know about other Keeper players, but i have never had a Cap resolve against me. If some Keeper players want to share stories about getting killed by Cap, maybe ill change my views.

[j_orlove]

Quote Also, Cap is NOT a good sb card vs Keeper, they will counter it at least 90% of the time.

Uh, if they always counter it, isn't that a pretty good indication that the card would do serious damage if it hit the table? If it really was so bad, wouldn't they just let it resolve and snicker?


Incidentally, I did find a very cool SB card in case I decide to play TnT tomorrow at YMG. I'll let you know what the tech is tomorrow evening, when I get back, but, afaik, it hasn't seen T1 play ever.  

[Fishhead]

Quote Cap is slow, unless you have an amazing Mox-laden opening, you wont be able to cast it until turn 3 and activate on turn 4.

OK, I'll do the math.  I wont run through the details as its a pretty messy problem, but, in general, I used a program that calculates a hypergeometric distribution.  Here are the chances of having 4 mana available after:

7 cards & 1 turn: 24%
8 cards & 2 turns: 59%
9 cards & 3 turns: 78%

These numbers assume you win the coin flip; otherwise they are roughly 5% higher as you get to draw an extra card.  Its pretty clear that Turn 2 is your likely "Cap turn".

-more-

For the fun of it, I ran the numbers to see what the likelihood was that you'd have a Cap and be able to cast it, given 4 Caps.  The numbers seem low, but then we're essentially talking about the odds of drawing a sideboard card as well as the odds of being able to cast it.  And if you've ever sided in 10 cards for a matchup and then never drawn any of them, you know how that can go.  

7 cards, 1 turn: 11% (going first)
8 cards, 1 turn: 15% (going second)
8 cards, 2 turns: 25%
9 cards, 2 turns: 31%
9 cards, 3 turns: 34%
10 cards, 3 turns: 41%

So the first 3 cases are the most interesting as they all likely happen before the Keeper player gets to Mana Drain mana, which is the first critical milestone in this matchup.

[FeverDog]

@Orlove
There are a lot of cards Keeper doesnt want to see hit play, which is why it runs counters. Saying a card is a good sb card because they want to counter it (and probably will) is not the best argument.

@Fish
So, according to your numbers, the deck should have 4 mana on the second turn 60% of the time. Yet, in my experience, its not nearly that often. Im not gonna argue math, cuz i suck at it, just that my playtesting hasnt shown those kinds of numbers.

[doublej20]

Quote (Azhrei @ Dec. 04 2002,19:52)Jester's Cap is just awful, awful. It's the kind of thing that works once in a blue moon, but just often enough to keep some people using them. It has the significant drawback of sometimes being utterly worthless and being situational as hell. I would strongly recommend against Cap as a serious sideboard card.

Az, you keep saying Cap is bad but do not explain your reasons why. Have you ever tested it like other people, or is this just a personal sentiment? As I see it, a successful Cap can often end the game, so let's review why:

vs. Oath - Take out 3 creatures or win conditions
vs. Academy - Take out Braingeyser, Stroke, and something else
vs. Turboland - Take out up to 3 win conditions
vs. Keeper - Take out 2 Morphlings and Yawgmoth's Will
vs. Parfait - Take out 2 Sacred Mesa and Soldevi Digger
vs. Void - Take out Voids, graveyard hate, or other broken cards
vs. Pandeburst - Take out 3 Saproling Bursts
vs. Mono Blue (not that you would even side it in, but you could) - Take out 3 Morphlings
vs. Power Artifact - Take out 3 win conditions
vs. Illusions Donate - Take out 3 Donate

Just because half of the Keeper sideboard is situational, or a main deck COP:Red is situational doesn't prevent people from playing them. Obviously you're not going to side Cap in vs. Suicide or Sligh or many other decks out there, but it more than holds its weight in a number of matchups.