Article -- Vampiric Tutor or No?

[Zherbus]

Thanks Eric and ShadowLotus for reenforcing my thoughts and bringing them to meaning in other words. ShadowLotus, you mentioned something worth mentioning: "No one is saying that Vampiric Tutor is the worst thing imaginable for Keeper players to be running. "

Thats right, I am not going to look at someones Keeper list and tell them that Vampiric sucks ass and to change it, especially since it belongs in any build with Grim Monolith/Power Artifact. However, if someones Keeper is losing because they can't seem to get what they need fast enough, I will recommend cutting Vampiric.

Dante, the problem with Moat is that if the player can kill your white sources, Moat will just sit in your hand long enough to get ripped away by discard. While I think that running both Abyss and Moat are great ways of just giving the middle finger to aggro of many varieties, I would never side my Moat in against Suicide.

EDIT: @Rozetta

Quote Again, back to the ideas stated in previous posts that vampiric:
a) is card disadvantage
b) doesn't get you what you need immediately
c) _shouldn't_ be used to get "silver bullets" e.g. ZOrb, LoA, etc.

What advantage (apart from being pitchable to FoW) does running Mystical tutor give? After all:
a) one shouldn't be getting silver bullets e.g. Balance with it
b) getting an ancestral nets only +1 cards after it's cast (assuming no MisD)

Look at it like this:
Aggro - Vampiric isnt great against fast aggro because: It makes you wait a turn for the card you want (which as I've said, isn't enough for seal the game). Also, Vampiric helps aggro by knocking your life total down by 2.

These two factors DO make a difference to just about any aggro out there save the slower ones like WW or Suicide.

Against control - It creates that whole card disadvantage thing that we often talk about. So doesn't Mystical but its the better of the two since all you want against control are things you can fetch with Mystical and you can pitch it as well as cast it easier.

[Dante]

Quote (Zherbus @ Dec. 17 2002,12:38)Dante, the problem with Moat is that if the player can kill your white sources, Moat will just sit in your hand long enough to get ripped away by discard. While I think that running both Abyss and Moat are great ways of just giving the middle finger to aggro of many varieties, I would never side my Moat in against Suicide.

I wouldn't SIDE it in either (dystopia usually comes in against cop's and that sort of thing), and I usually side it out (for just the reasons mentioned), but maindeck it's been good.  If they concentrate on my white, it leaves me with black (and Abyss is better vs suicide since most don't maindeck a core).  Also, a topdecked moat (assuming you can cast it, which, honestly, had never been a problem for me) is an instant game one turner.  

But it's really there for the all-around aggro versatility; it's track record against suicide game one has been an added bonus.  The control decks in my area also have phids/infiltrators/factories, so it's actually a dead draw in VERY few games.

But I think this digresses from the point of this thread (to vamp or not to vamp), although having Moat and Abyss may have a better justification for running Vamp since Moat can shut down a lot of strategies that Abyss won't (untargetables or artifact fat).

Dante

[Zherbus]

Ok, thats a fair statement. If your build is like Dante's where the bullets are more potent, then sure (though I still wouldnt, personally). Maybe the most diplomatic answer is 'it depends on your build'.

[Nevyn]

edit: what I needed to respond to was Rozetta's post not Zherbus' or Dante's.

Sorry, I just need to respond to that. Balance is NOT a silver bullet. If it weren't restricted you would likely see more than one in the deck. It is occasionally a panic button, but never mistake it for a silver bullet. Mystical (or Vampiric) for balance is not a bad thing.

Also, I look at most of the principle mystical targets and they all produce card advantage pretty consistently, even if you mystical for them. If you look outside that circle at the things vampiric fetches that  mystical doesn't, few of them make back the card you give up. Strip Mine/Wasteland doesn't unless you take out an active LoA. LoA doesn't for a while as you often go under 7 cards to tutor for it. Abyss doesn;t like it used to because people metagame for it and it doesn't hurt the format's novelty deck, TnT. Moat is in a similar scenario (again these last two come down to a de-emphasis on silver bullets). Zuran Orb  is a lousy thing to be using vampiric for since it works against the reason you want the Orb. Morphling doesn't give card advantage and if you are ready to fetch it you can often wait to find it.

So vampiric is almost always either a card disadvantage silver bullet fetcher or a bad mystical tutor. Meanwhile, mystical can card disadvanatage fetch all those same bullets through demonic, trading 1U for 2 life (and a lot of those bullets are anti-aggro people). So let's not compare mystical versus vamp in Keeper. Mystical wins.

So the question is, is there something ELSE in keeper that you think vampiric should be in there instead of.\n\n

[Dante]

Nevyn - I agree with what you're saying, but I think that looking at the "silver bullets" as a whole in addition to an individual card basis would be best.  What I mean is, there are a lot of aggro strategies designed at playing around Abyss.  Same with Moat, but to a lesser degree.  But [/U]most can't play around both.  I maindeck both Abyss and Moat and having a second tutor that can get either one has been good for me.

That being said, my current search/tutor selection is: DT, MS, MT, 2 Wish, 3 Brainstorm (no Vamp).  That has worked well in testing and in the one tournament I played it (3-0-1 in swiss).  However, I'm think about switching the 3rd Brainstorm for a Vampiric, but haven't had time to test it out..

Dante

[Nevyn]

I don't disagree with you dante. I'm not even saying Vampiric is a wrong choice for the deck. I have nowhere near the Keeper experience necessary to make that call. I am merely pointing out that it loses the comparison to mystical, and that the argument "well, they are both card disadvantage" neglects how they are typically used.

[Zherbus]

Moved. Extrem Vintage Material, so lets keep it as intellegent as its been.

[Milton]

Quote So vampiric is almost always either a card disadvantage silver bullet fetcher or a bad mystical tutor. Meanwhile, mystical can card disadvanatage fetch all those same bullets through demonic, trading 1U for 2 life (and a lot of those bullets are anti-aggro people). So let's not compare mystical versus vamp in Keeper. Mystical wins.

But isn't the point that if you Mystical for Demonic, you are trading your ability to tutor twice for one card.  If you Vampiric for any card you retain your ability to Mystical for something else.

Also, lets not frown on Vamp for Library.  This was a great play against many control oriented decks and it still is.  Playing lands against opponents.  Not wanting to cast spells.  Your hand is full, you cast Vamp.  Your opponent won't counter it, so you get Library.

Many have mentioned that cutting Vamp is a recent decision worthy of the new changes to Keeper.  Many have stated that the Fetchlands, Wishes and Brainstorm make Vamp obsolete.  As I recall, however, the trend away from Vamp started about a year ago.  When the posts first started I couldn't believe it.  I thought it was a joke along the lines of Doomsday deck.  But, a year later here we are.  Very odd indeed.

Lastly, I think we are all at an impass on this issue.  I just don't see how Vampiric is inferior to Mystical in any way.  Two damage doesn't mean much and it gets anything.  Others believe that the two damage is important and that Mystical is better because of it's color.  The truth is somewhere in between, I suppose, but I'll still play Vampiric.

[Nevyn]

So you don't play mystical?

[CrazyCarl]

I'm kinda having a hard time wondering what the issue is here(and why it keeps getting brought up).  Is it why people don't play Vampiric anymore?  My answer:

I felt I didn't need it anymore and since cutting it I haven't missed it.  It has nothing to do with Vampiric being a bad card, but it has everything to do with it being unneeded.  Now, if you're running Vampiric OVER Mystical, I do think that's "bad".  Being blue is one major thing Mystical has over Vampiric because it can be pitched.  I think everyone pitches Mystical every now and again, so that does matter more than one might think.  And the 2 life loss also matters alot.  Against Sligh or Stompy, it's a free attack and a lost draw for you making it, in almost every way, a Time Walk for them.  And usually while what you fetch will end the game(hopefully), is it worth keeping around when you would most likely fetch the same thing with a Mystical(When -I- ran Vamp, I was normally fetching spells like Balance and Ancestral), so why pay the life as well?

So really what I think the issue is: Do we need the extra tutor?  In most cases, I believe no.  So now, is the issue if you are going to run only one of them(Vamp/Mystical), which do you run? The answer is still(and most likely will remain) Mystical.\n\n

[Fishhead]

Quote After all, what should be cut to play /Vampiric/?  ... Mystical tutor?  I don't think so.  

OK, since a lot of the replies up there have gone along these lines, I'll argue this again:

Vampiric serves the exact same function as Mystical except it has a significant bonus: you can get any card in your deck with it, and two insignificant drawbacks: 2 life, not blue.  It is not a "bad Mystical Tutor"; IMHO the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.  I think its pretty clear this is true.  

Sorry to pick on Zherbus here, but his post illustrates what I am trying to say (and I think he came the closest to logically breaking down the Mystical v. Vampiric question):

Quote Aggro - Vampiric isnt great against fast aggro because: It makes you wait a turn for the card you want (which as I've said, isn't enough for seal the game). Also, Vampiric helps aggro by knocking your life total down by 2.

OK, the first half of this statement is irrelevant we all agree since it applies to Mystical too.  The second half (two life) is true and relevant, but it is offset by the idea that I can fetch cards that are useful (maindecked) or crushing (sideboarded) in a given matchup that cant be fetched by Mystical.  Examples are Abyss and COP:Red (or even Celestial Dawn, hehe.)  To me, I say "noticable advantage to Vampiric in the Aggro matchup."

Quote Against control - It creates that whole card disadvantage thing that we often talk about. So doesn't Mystical but its the better of the two since all you want against control are things you can fetch with Mystical and you can pitch it as well as cast it easier.

About the first half of this point:  Vampiric has significant options for avoiding card disadvantage that Mystical does not.  Fetching something uncounterable like LoA or Dust Bowl is a serious option with Vampiric; against Mystical I just counter what you fetch.  The two life is irrelevant in this matchup, and pitching is a pretty minor advantage.  So I see Vampiric as having an edge here too.  

Combo is the last matchup type; again the two life is irrelevant, but really, what do you want to fetch against Combo?  Mana Drain, FoW?  Ancestal.  Pretty much the same between the two.  Unless Ivory Mask becomes viable again.  

Quote Zuran Orb  is a lousy thing to be using vampiric for since it works against the reason you want the Orb.

Since two people mentioned this, I feel I have to spell it out explictly.  The Zuran Orb is your only realistic source of life-gain in the deck.  Dont get lost in the "Vampiric costs 2 and Zorb gains 2" arguement.  The Zorb can sacrifice any number of land, so a Zorb is not just worth 2 life!  If you need lifegain in this deck, you need Zorb.

[Dante]

Quote (CrazyCarl @ Dec. 17 2002,15:40)So really what I think the issue is: Do we need the extra tutor?  In most cases, I believe no.  So now, is the issue if you are going to run only one of them(Vamp/Mystical), which do you run? The answer is still(and most likely will remain) Mystical.

I think this is the key question here - do we still need the tutoring of Vampiric Tutor?  Milton and others say "yes", while Az, Zherbus, and others say "no".  I'm of mixed mind since my Keeper ran well with it and (in it's brief incarnation) without it.  

The real question seems to be, is Vampiric better than whatever card you would take out to put Vampiric in?  In my case, I'm going to mark my 3rd Brainstorm and write down how many times I was glad it was brainstorm and how many times I wished it was V.T.  Then I'll have some hard evidence to better make a decision on.  Note that running another "bullet" like Moat may give different results than a version that doesn't run that (I also have D. Blow maindeck as well).

Dante

[j_orlove]

Quote Being blue is one major thing Mystical has over Vampiric because it can be pitched.  I think everyone pitches Mystical every now and again, so that does matter more than one might think.  

Being blue is important for another reason, too. Don't forget that with the fetchland-manabase, Keeper is now even more focused on producing blue mana than ever before. Sure, you will probably have black mana by the second or third turn, but you will always have blue mana by turn 1. It's also a lot harder for one wasteland to take out all your blue mana producers.

So, there will be times when you can't use vampiric, but could have used mystical. But, in all the situations where you can't cast mystical, you couldn't cast vampiric either. Mystical is just more "castable". This is just another reason why mystical is superior to vamp.

So, like CrazyCarl said, if you're only going to run one, mystical just works better.

[Nevyn]

Let's put it this way, fishhead. If you want to fetch

Balance
Stroke
Ancestral
Mind Twist
Yawgwill
Walk
Mana Drain
Fow
Misdirection
Cunning Wish
Fact or Fiction
Regrowth
etc.

would you rather look with mystical or vampiric?

if you need Zuran Orb against sligh, would you rather mystical-demonic-orb for 1UB or vampiric for B? There may be cases for both, but I'd say generally mystical.

If your opponent is going to kill you with a spell (say animate dead a dragon), and you have FoW in hand, would you rather have vampiric or mystical. This is NOT irrelevant.

Finally, if you need

Library of Alexandria
Dust Bowl/Strip Mine
Abyss
Moat
Morphling

which you must admit is a smaller number of cases than the above list, is mystical-demonic really any worse. Yes I know that this uses two tutors over one, but since one of those tutors was not yet drawnand is a one-of, I don't consider that a big deal.

In short, I think mystical is hands down better for Keeper (though not for other decks), and I ask again, what other card should come out for vampiric.

[Sylvester]

Just a quick note. Nevyn, that sentence was bad stats:

Quote
...but since one of those tutors was not yet drawn and is a one-of, I don't consider that a big deal.

SINCE it is a one-of, taking it out of the deck is more important! If you had 4 DT, taking one out of the deck would mean you had a certain % chances less of drawing one in the next x turns. However, when you have only 1 DT, taking it out means you have 100% less chances of drawing one in the next x turns.

I believe you are still right, though. You'll probably prefer Mystical -> DT over Vampiric.

[Fishhead]

Short reply:

Quote Let's put it this way, fishhead. If you want to fetch

Balance
Stroke
Ancestral
Mind Twist
Yawgwill
Walk
Mana Drain
Fow
Misdirection
Cunning Wish
Fact or Fiction
Regrowth
etc.

would you rather look with mystical or vampiric?

It depends entirely on my matchup.  If I would like the two life (against aggro) then Mystical is "better".  Against Combo or Control the life isnt the issue; either one will do just fine.  I just want to get to my answer cards.

But to me it comes down to this tradeoff: Mystical = pitchable, no damage v. Vampiric = any card.  (Personally, I think 2-3 Mysticals is still the correct answer; so I play both + Merchant Scroll. No need for me to balance out the tradeoffs.)

The other thing to think about is what happens to Keeper after sideboarding.  Do you have more killer Enchantments or Artifacts (COP:Red, Ensnaring Bridge) than you did in game one?  Does your opponent have a grip full of ReBs?  (Being blue isnt always an advantage!)  Is Mystical as good as it was in the first game or would Vampiric be better now?

[Nevyn]

My point, sylvester, was that you are much less likely to draw the demonic normally than you are not to draw it. So while you CAN'T draw it post tutor chain, the reduction from slim to none is not so great as to be a reason not to do it.

[DigDug]

If the issue is one or the other, I would definitely play Mystical Tutor.  The deciding factor is that I have 17 sources of blue vs. 10 sources of black (minus Lotus).  Vampiric Tutor is a great card but I can't be as certain that I can play it as I can with Mystical Tutor.  Pitchability is a non-factor for me.  The two life isn't usually too big of a deal for me.  Fetching silver bullets that Mystical can't get is not too important maindeck because I have duplicates of virtually all of them.

If Keeper evolves a little more away from the silver bullet theory, Mystical Tutor will also lose it's usefulness and could be replaced with another Merchant Scroll.  You would probably have to go to three Cunning Wishes, make the instants in your sideboard diverse and run multiples of the enchantments and artifacts.  You would also not be able to side in the instants and might need to run more than Yawgmoth's Will for graveyard recursion.

[Rico Suave]

I think most of us can agree that Mystical is better than Vamp.  The question I'm wondering is, why not use both?  Vamp may have more disadvantages than Mystical, but it still finds your most powerful spells for only 1 mana.  Getting Ancestral is still game-breaking.

If you're looking for something to cut, I'd say Brainstorm would be a good start.

[Nevyn]

Quote
(Personally, I think 2-3 Mysticals is still the correct answer; so I play both + Merchant Scroll. No need for me to balance out the tradeoffs.)

So why the argument? All I said was unless you are cutting mystical to vampiric, why bring mystical into the discussion. It doesn't matter a bit which one you think is better if you won't cut either. Which was my point to begin with. Maybe vampiric should stay in, but mystical is not relevant to the discussion because EVERYBODY thinks it should stay in.

[DigDug]

Quote Getting Ancestral [via Vampiric Tutor] is still game-breaking.

Unless you have Regrowth or Yawgmoth's Will in hand, it's only a net gain of one card for two life.

[CrazyCarl]

I would be curious to see a show of hands of those Keeper players who have run Vampiric Tutor, and if they have tried playing WITHOUT it.  I think i'll start a poll about just that.

[Rakso]

Quote (Rico Suave @ Dec. 17 2002,14:59)I think most of us can agree that Mystical is better than Vamp.  The question I'm wondering is, why not use both?  Vamp may have more disadvantages than Mystical, but it still finds your most powerful spells for only 1 mana.  Getting Ancestral is still game-breaking.

If you're looking for something to cut, I'd say Brainstorm would be a good start.

Strangely enough, this was precisely the issue the ARTICLE ended with.

Quote I would be curious to see a show of hands of those Keeper players who have run Vampiric Tutor, and if they have tried playing WITHOUT it.  I think i'll start a poll about just that.

I'd also caution that this might be oversimplification. The article hints that before you base your build on what someone else did, you'd have to examine his build and his metagame.

Quote I think most of us can agree that Mystical is better than Vamp.  The question I'm wondering is, why not use both?

No, no... phrasing the issue this way makes less sense.

The real question is, "Is there something more efficient or flexible or better to run in the Vampiric Tutor slot?" This is why the article doesn't discuss Mystical tutor at all, but discusses cutting Dismantling Blow, Zuran Orb, etc. and other cards you might find working less for you.


Incidentally, I think it might help the discussion to lump silver bullets and card advantage more closely. When you consider that traditional silver bullets shut down only newbie decks completely, you end up running them to take out more cards than it costs you to get them into play and not to hope to shut down entire decks with one card.

[Saucemaster]

@Nevyn, et. al.:  The crux of Fishhead's argument (suggested by Milton, I believe, in a previous thread) is this:

Keeper once-upon-a-time used to run multiple Mysticals (before it was restricted).  Suppose it was unrestricted once more; would you run more than one?  If your answer is yes, but you're opposed to Vamp, then it's incumbent on you to explain why you would run another Mystical, but no Vamp.  Since both Mystical and Vamp cost you a turn, that can't be your answer.  There are only three differences between Mystical and Vamp--two disadvantages and one advantage.  All of which we all know, but for the sake of presenting the argument clearly, here they are again:

Disadvantages: 1) Mystical is off-color, and therefore can't be pitched/can't always be cast early. 2) Vamp costs you two life.

Advantage: Vamp gets you any card in the deck, which Mystical can't (without starting the tutor chain, which for the purposes of this argument can be disregarded, since ONLY ONE MYSTICAL can start the tutor chain, D. Tutor being restricted and all.

THEREFORE: if you've cut Vamp, you're necessarily implying that either: A) the disadvantages listed above outweigh Vamp's advantage; or B) you would not play multiple Mysticals anymore in Keeper (i.e., another Mirage tutor is no longer necessary/desirable in Keeper).

Fishhead's point is that he believes that another Mirage tutor effect is still desirable in Keeper, and he believes that the advantage outweighs the twin disadvantages; therefore, he plays Vamp.  

Note that if you've cut Vamp then you're logically forced to admit that either the disadvantages of Vamp outweigh the advantage, or that you wouldn't run multiple Mysticals given the opportunity.

You can obviously argue both of these points perfectly well; the point is that you have to argue one of them if you cut Vamp.

Sorry, my Philosophy degree is speaking up here and I had to clarify that to make sure that the argument was clear.

[Zherbus]

Quote Sorry to pick on Zherbus here, but his post illustrates what I am trying to say (and I think he came the closest to logically breaking down the Mystical v. Vampiric question):

No problem  I feel I can back my decisions up, otherwise I wouldn't have voiced them.

Quote OK, the first half of this statement is irrelevant we all agree since it applies to Mystical too.  The second half (two life) is true and relevant, but it is offset by the idea that I can fetch cards that are useful (maindecked) or crushing (sideboarded) in a given matchup that cant be fetched by Mystical.  Examples are Abyss and COP:Red (or even Celestial Dawn, hehe.)  To me, I say "noticable advantage to Vampiric in the Aggro matchup."

Personally, I wouldn't want 2 tutors in the deck that lose you a turn against aggro. So rather than cut Mystical which still fetches what I mostly need against other matchups, I cut the weaker tutor.

I guess we should concentrate less on Mystical Versus Vampiric until we get to agree that 2 'Mirage block tutors' arent needed. Once we agree that running both slows your development and hurts card advantage, then we can move on to which one to cut.

As far as being able to fetch something 'crushing' name one card that you can Vampiric for that crushes any mayor archtype. Now take those cards and ask if waiting an extra turn and paying the extra life is worth the card.

Quote About the first half of this point:  Vampiric has significant options for avoiding card disadvantage that Mystical does not.  Fetching something uncounterable like LoA or Dust Bowl is a serious option with Vampiric; against Mystical I just counter what you fetch.  The two life is irrelevant in this matchup, and pitching is a pretty minor advantage.  So I see Vampiric as having an edge here too.  

Combo is the last matchup type; again the two life is irrelevant, but really, what do you want to fetch against Combo?  Mana Drain, FoW?  Ancestal.  Pretty much the same between the two.  Unless Ivory Mask becomes viable again.  

I do the Blah Blahs for you since I know you've heard it all before...

Blah blah...Vampiric for LoA...Wasteland...blah blah...lost 2 cards for 1. It doesn't even have to be a Wasteland! If I dont have a Wasteland, I will simply throw my opponent off if I can by making him counter a spell to screw up his hand size. I rarely would tutor for a LoA.

As for Combo - it IS somewhat Irrelevant depending on the matchup. Overall, I dont see Combo kicking Controls ass anywhere, so I didn't even address he issue.

Quote Since two people mentioned this, I feel I have to spell it out explictly.  The Zuran Orb is your only realistic source of life-gain in the deck.  Dont get lost in the "Vampiric costs 2 and Zorb gains 2" arguement.  The Zorb can sacrifice any number of land, so a Zorb is not just worth 2 life!  If you need lifegain in this deck, you need Zorb.

Well if they cant kill you from the turn lost, the additional 2 damage, or you have enough land to run the deck while 'Zorbing' then sure it can be a fine thing to Vampiric for. If they arent going Shaman/Keg/Naturalize/Weld/Null Rod it anyways.

Quote If you're looking for something to cut, I'd say Brainstorm would be a good start.

No, not the card the makes me Mulligan Less, get rid of dead cards, and turn mana flood into useful cards.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Zherbus @ Dec. 17 2002,17:18)No, not the card the makes me Mulligan Less, get rid of dead cards, and turn mana flood into useful cards.

So...if you have Brainstorm you're less likely to mulligan?  I mulligan a lot less too when I have Vamp, because it fetching Ancestral helps to smooth things out too.

Brainstorm gets rid of dead cards, but you're just as likely to draw them later (or even in the next couple turns without a shuffler, which does happen a lot).  Also, dead cards usually only happen game one, I'm also concerned about the 2nd and 3rd games too, where Vamp shines more than it's given credit for (lots of SB stuff are things Mystical can't even fetch).

Turning mana flood into useful cards is always a good thing.  I won't deny that.

I'm just really surprised.  Vamp is an awesome card, Brainstorm is something not even mono-U uses.  Is Brainstorm THAT much better?  In my opinion, no.  

Anyway, if Brainstorm is really superior to Vamp, what about Brainstorm being superior to Mystical?  Wouldn't that make just as much sense?

Rakso, yes, that went along with the article, but as you can see I came to a different conclusion about the other utility that would go in that slot.  I don't think it's as good (namely, Brainstorm).

[rozetta]

The brainstorm versus mirage-block tutors thing is kind of a double-edged sword, since the tutors actually make brainstorm better (shuffle away dead cards and put something useful on the top of your deck). Given that idea, would it not be better to run, say, a pair of impulses in place of the two mirage tutors to complement brainstorm? They are not card disadvantage, have synergy with brainstorm and are pitchable. I know this is a stupid sounding arguement, but has anyone ever tried this in non-combo keeper?

On a side note, this whole subject really is a metagame arguement (as Rakso pointed out). I, for one, play in a metagame heavy with mono-black. Being able to vampiric up an abyss early game is absolutely golden, but it's so conditional - I have to play it the turn before I have 4 mana of which one is black, which is very difficult versus suicide since they could duress it away earlier, kill your mana sources, etc. That's the only situation in my mind where the card has really stood out for me, especially since the addition of fetch lands and brainstorms to the deck.

[Rakso]

Quote (Saucemaster @ Dec. 17 2002,16:06)if you've cut Vamp, you're necessarily implying that either: A) the disadvantages listed above outweigh Vamp's advantage; or B) you would not play multiple Mysticals anymore in Keeper (i.e., another Mirage tutor is no longer necessary/desirable in Keeper).

Okay, I honestly felt that article was comprehensive enough to have answered the points being raised here.

First, a Mirage tutor doesn't necessarily fetch anything useful in every matchup, taking into consideration that you have to sacrifice two cards to get that one card of your choice.

This makes the fact that Mystical is blue crucial. You can pay two-for-one to Force of Will instead.

Second, Vamp being able to get ANYTHING isn't that big an improvement over Mystical's selection. That leaves you with:

Shaman, not useful in every matchup and only in specific situations in the matchups where it's gold

Morphling, usually when you're ready to win

The Abyss, which requires significant mana development before you commit to this and you can fetch Balance (or SBed Pyroclasm) against weenie aggro as well

Strips, which is rare for a 2-for-1 play

Black Lotus and other mana sources, only when you're unbelievably mana screwed


So, no, it doesn't matter a lot that Vampiric fetches any card.

[Rakso]

Quote (Rico Suave @ Dec. 17 2002,19:19)Brainstorm gets rid of dead cards, but you're just as likely to draw them later (or even in the next couple turns without a shuffler, which does happen a lot).  Also, dead cards usually only happen game one, I'm also concerned about the 2nd and 3rd games too, where Vamp shines more than it's given credit for (lots of SB stuff are things Mystical can't even fetch).

...

I'm just really surprised.  Vamp is an awesome card, Brainstorm is something not even mono-U uses.  Is Brainstorm THAT much better?  In my opinion, no.  

Anyway, if Brainstorm is really superior to Vamp, what about Brainstorm being superior to Mystical?  Wouldn't that make just as much sense?

Rakso, yes, that went along with the article, but as you can see I came to a different conclusion about the other utility that would go in that slot.  I don't think it's as good (namely, Brainstorm).

It's not true that you don't suffer from having dead cards after you board. Imagine yet drawing an opening hand with Morphling, Morphling, YawgWill and Stroke!

Saying mono blue doesn't use Brainstorm is in irrelevant argument. Every deck with blue and fetchlands is benefitting from that darned trick, and I'm still not living it down with respect to Ormerod.

You cannot argue Mystical compared to Brainstorm simply because they're both blue.

If you can't find a card you think is more efficient than Vampiric Tutor after doing a sort-of weighted average of all the matchups, then go ahead and run it. I still run it in my default decklist.

[Rakso]

Quote OK, the first half of this statement is irrelevant we all agree since it applies to Mystical too.  The second half (two life) is true and relevant, but it is offset by the idea that I can fetch cards that are useful (maindecked) or crushing (sideboarded) in a given matchup that cant be fetched by Mystical.  Examples are Abyss and COP:Red (or even Celestial Dawn, hehe.)  To me, I say "noticable advantage to Vampiric in the Aggro matchup."

Again, refer to the table provided in that article. If you board Celestial Dawn and COP: Red and face 50% Sligh, go with Vampiric by all means.

No set answer here.