Trinity Keeper Discussion

[kl0wn]

A couple of questions were raised by Mon, Goblin Chief and Big Blue regarding my Trinity Keeper build. I didn't want to hijack the "Vampiric Tutor in Keeper" thread and turn it into a Trinity discussion, so I'm doing that here.

First off:

Quote Mon, Goblin Chief: You don't play Holistic Wisdom in Trinity? It's that backbreaking in the (keeper-) mirror, that I'd definitly include it.

I was running Holistic Wisdom for a while and it was simply amazing at sealing the game. Unfortunately, that's all it seemed to do. The card has just functioned as a "win-more" toy every time I cast it. If I'm in the position where I can pay 1GG during my turn to cast it and then pitch Mana Drains and Forces to recur Ancestral against control, I'm in a position to just kill them without showing off.

Against good aggro decks, I focus on comboing my opponents out while other Keeper decks spend the same resources trying to stabilize. In both versions of Keeper, 1GG during the main phase and 2 plus a card to use it the first time is way too expensive to spend on a Regrowth effect.

Quote Big Blue: apart from small MD issues (like the StoP or the lack of Timetwister): what is the idea of Ensnaring Bridge in the SB? If Sui is your concern, why not simply play Compost in the SB (and Timewtister main)?

Regarding the StoP: Its there to buy me a turn or two against aggro. By randomly Plowing an important creature, I often have the extra turn or two that I need to win the game. Its also very helpful against Mox Monkeys since I don't run Fire/Ice.

Regarding the lack of Timetwister: I like my graveyard full. I can't count the number of games in which I've had Stroke or Geyser in my graveyard and a Demonic or Vampiric Tutor in my hand and immediate access to Yawgmoth's Will. Against aggro, I build up my graveyard so that I can Will into the combo, and Timetwister ould just wreck that. I also hate giving my opponent seven new cards to play with; I prefer to be the only player with more access to his deck than he's supposed to have.

Regarding the Ensnaring Bridge: I am not concerned with Suicide. Against Suicide, I hunt down my Abyss and win the game (I never sideboard against it, and I haven't lost a game since I stopped sideboarding against it).

The Bridge is my anti-Mask tech which, quite conveniently, also hits TNT, Gro, RandomFatCreature.dec, Reanimator, Suicide, and I'm sure some other decks that I can't think of at the moment. I understand that all of these decks have ways of removing the Bridge, but the purpose of it is nearly identical to that of the StoP: to keep me alive until I can win. The extra turn or two that the Bridge can buy me is often the difference between victory and defeat. For the record, I also use pitch-counters more liberally than normal.

As a side note, Sylvan Library is absolutely INSANE with the fetchlands. Think of running the Brainstorm/fetchland engine. Now think of always having a Brainstorm in your hand to use with your fetchlands. Now think of never having to draw a card that you don't want ever again. Yeah, its quite yummy. I have been thinking about running a second Sylvan Library, and I will once I figure out what I can cut for it. Its really that good.

[Rakso]

Quote The Bridge is my anti-Mask tech

But Bridge doesn't stop a 0/1 Phyrexian Dreadnought.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Good idea to open another thread, I was just thinking about the same problem, when I wanted to reply to what you said there.

First something else: Could you post your decklist here, it was either deleted in the other thread or I'm just to stupid to find it, again.  

Holistic Wisdom: I had quite a different feeling (also I was watching it from the other side of the table). When my opponents resolved it, they usually were in a very minimal advantage. Wisdom just crushed all resistance I had to offer, if I didn't remove it in a very short time (well, as long as my opponents didn't misplay). Those decks ran 3+ Impulses though, and I don't remember what your build did run in that category.
Against aggro it is, as you stated, a lot to slow. Maybe you could test it as a SB card against opposing Control-decks?

Quote
Regarding the lack of Timetwister: I like my graveyard full. I can't count the number of games in which I've had Stroke or Geyser in my graveyard and a Demonic or Vampiric Tutor in my hand and immediate access to Yawgmoth's Will. Against aggro, I build up my graveyard so that I can Will into the combo,

This is something I do a lot, too. It's one of the easiest ways to assemble the combo against aggro (I don't play KrOathan, just the usual Keeper build in which i fitted the combo).
I have to admit that I only missed good ol' twister once after cutting it.

Quote
Regarding the StoP: Its there to buy me a turn or two against aggro. By randomly Plowing an important creature, I often have the extra turn or two that I need to win the game. Its also very helpful against Mox Monkeys since I don't run Fire/Ice.

Even in Trinity I'd hate to drop below 2  single creature removals, early Specters or Monkeys just become to disturbing if you do, imo. So I'm with clown on this decision.

Quote Regarding the Ensnaring Bridge: I am not concerned with Suicide. Against Suicide, I hunt down my Abyss and win the game (I never sideboard against it, and I haven't lost a game since I stopped sideboarding against it).

This sounds strange for me, as every Trinity-player I know boards the combo and 2nd (and 3rd) game usually are a byes for them. But if it works without, more power to you.

I don't really like the Bridge personally, but I won't contest it's power. I just don't like to have to keep 3 or less cards in my hand against TnT, so I don't play it.

Sylvan is definitly insane wit the Fetchlands, but as a second copy would make a dead card in your deck (even with Sylvan out, it limits the amount of cards you see till your next fetchland). IMO it's the perfect target to Tutor for against control, where the combo is a little to narrow as the kill, imo.

[Big Blue]

I reiterate: good idea to open a separate thread!

According to my experience HW is not just a "win-more" card (although it comes close to fit that description), but this experience is restricted to pre-combo times. With HW the crucial point was to be able to recur Time Walk often enough (because otherwise you run out of mana), so the deck was completely different (more JPish with Duresses).

In combo-Keeper, however, I support klOwn's decision - you don't need a "sub-combo" besides your main combo; the deck is already unfocused (read: flexible) enough without the tricks of HW...

Regarding Mon's suggestion to put it into the SB: I believe, there are better options available. Your main concern is not to cast Ancestral over and over again, but to cast it once with yourself as target or to Misdirect your opponent's Anestral. E.g. I'd rather play a second Sylvan over HW, since I cannot rely on too much mana games 2-3 (with Miners and Shamans in the game your opponent will Strip/Waste more aggressively).

Concerning Timetwister: probably that is a metagame call. Since there are barely enough Workshops in Austria to build 1 TnT people are still playing Sui (and even Pox) a lot. Especially against Pox the 7 cards are very convenient (shuts down Racks and Scrolls for a while).

Since I believed Ensnaring Bridge was anti-Sui-tech my objection was natural - I did not think of Mask (there are even fewer Masks than Workshops in Vienna).

BTW, I also tend to fill my graveyard and then go for the YawgWin, but [standard argument] Timetwister is a nice come-from-behind card which wins you games that you would lose otherwise. If you are already winning or on the edge - well, it is a blue card... [/standard argument]

My main issue was the StoP: While 1-4 StoPs are certainly good to have against aggro, your plan is to essentially auto-win games 2-3 in these matches. Thus, the maindeck should be more focused on beating combo and control, IMHO (for instance, if you look at the first version posted on Mana Drain you will note the lack of Abyss).
 
So my point is: Since Trinity-Keeper cannot afford to run red it has slightly worse SB options than Paragonish Keeper (with or without the combo). Of course, 4 Duress together with 3-4 other anti-control slots are some compensation, but still worse than 4 REBs, Shaman(s) and Miners. Thus, the maindeck should focus on winning against control/combo. Thus, no StoP.

Maybe it is strange to debate over this single slot, but I'd rather play another Brainstorm or Impulse to see the combo more frequently than StoPing a beast and hoping for another topdeck.

@klOwn: since you mentioned gro: what is your experience in this matchup and what do you SB (apart from EB)?

[kl0wn]

Quote (Rakso @ Dec. 19 2002,03:22)But Bridge doesn't stop a 0/1 Phyrexian Dreadnought.

You're right Rakso, the bridge doesn't stop an 0/1 Dreadnought.

It does, however, stop a Dreadnought from attacking again. I'm fine with taking a shot from a 12/12 if I can combo my opponent out within the next turn or two, before they can attack with another 0/1.

Big Blue: Against Gro, I just side in Duresses and possibly an Aura Fracture if I expect B2B. Nothing else is really useful, but Duress really cripples Gro.

Quote So my point is: Since Trinity-Keeper cannot afford to run red it has slightly worse SB options than Paragonish Keeper (with or without the combo). Of course, 4 Duress together with 3-4 other anti-control slots are some compensation, but still worse than 4 REBs, Shaman(s) and Miners. Thus, the maindeck should focus on winning against control/combo. Thus, no StoP.

I don't really think that the SB is worse against control, its just different. The potential for bringing in CoTH is an excellent mind game to play. Keeper is forced to either keep their creature removal in and have dead cards and less slots to bring in SB cards (especially if you decide not to bring in the CoTH), or take it out and hope to counter your elephants (which is a losing proposition since you'll end up 2-for-1ing them in that scenario). Also, I wouldn't underestimate Duress. Granted, it doesn't counter anything, but it does take care of nonblue bombs like Yawgmoth's WiN before they can set them up. The CoTH and Duresses also can't be REBed, so their sideboard is rendered less effective.

Here's my decklist again:

Blue (20)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingeyser
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Power Artifact
2 Morphling
1 Time Walk
2 Brainstorm

Black (6)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Chainer's Edict
1 The Abyss
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Green (2)
1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library

White (3)
1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Swords To Plowshares

Artifacts
1 Zuran Orb

Mana (28)
2 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Dustbowl
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus


Sideboard:
4 Oath of Druids
2 Krosan Reclamation
4 Duress
2 Call Of The Herd
1 Aura Fracture
1 Scrying Glass
1 Ensnaring Bridge\n\n

[Fishhead]

Quote Against aggro /Wisdom/ is, as you stated, a lot to slow.

I only played pure Trinity in a couple of tournaments before moving back to a UBR mana-base, but I really liked Wisdom, even against Aggro.  For me, it was like having a second Yawgmoths Will; it is true that you need to establish a certain number of resources before you can use either one, but once you do its practically game over.  

Being able to recur both Strip Mine and Ancestral every turn totally destroyed my Sligh opponent in one game I remember; we had both drifted into the midgame low in resources when I topdecked Wisdom and locked him down over the next 3 turns.  

But, I think you really have to consider Wisdom in that way; just as you dont really want to see Y-Will in your first 12 cards, you probably dont want to see Wisdom in until then either.  Its a tight decision and I can see going either way on it.  Possibly the question "Would you play 2 Y-Wills?" is clearer (yes!) but similar enough.

Quote Even in Trinity I'd hate to drop below 2  single creature removals, early Specters or Monkeys just become to disturbing if you do, imo. So I'm with clown on this decision.

I tended to remove my creature removal (Abyss, D-Edict, StP) to bring in the Oaths in those slots.  After all, whats the point of removing opposing creatures if you need an opposing creature to Oath with?  Theres a very limited number of turns/situations that creature removal seems good in Kroathan Keeper.  I may be too dogmatic on this point; but if you draw an StP you can remove a pesky creature, if it was the Oath then you win next turn.  

As Mons points out though, the question of what to do with ability creatures like Monkey or Lyrist looms if you go without removal.  Meddling Mage naming Grim Monolith could doom you.  Another tough call.

[Zherbus]

Moved to Extreme Vintage.

[Nova]

Quote The potential for bringing in CoTH is an excellent mind game to play. Keeper is forced to either keep their creature removal in and have dead cards and less slots to bring in SB cards (especially if you decide not to bring in the CoTH), or take it out and hope to counter your elephants (which is a losing proposition since you'll end up 2-for-1ing them in that scenario).

I'd like to point out that in paragon keeper, your opponent can side out his removal and still have access to it via cunning wish.

[Big Blue]

I concede that 4 Duress+3 CotH (or slight variations thereof), together with Aura Fracture against mono-U, is a good SB against control. Still, I feel safer with REBs, because they can kill Ophidians and B2B. And against Keeper, eating all Moxen or 1 land/turn is much better than "just" swinging for 3. But again, it is a very good SB and if your MD does not feature too many dead cards your chances of winning are decent.

Regarding creature removal: I also remove everything (Edict/Abyss) in game 2/3 since the plan is to Oath. Thus, I only run Edict, since it is nice to have in games 2/3 vs. control, and Abyss, since it is nice to win game 1 against Sui (blabla metagame). StoPing a Mox monkey usually happens after the damage is done (unless your opponent doesn't know how to play his deck) and StoPing a Miner, while being very necessary, is something you can play around - either by Balance or by Edict or by killing him fast enough (if you run Negators instead of CotHs). Best thing is to counter this beast, of course. But frankly: do you keep the StoP against control in games 2/3? If yes, then I can understand why you play it. If not, you should consider another card for this slot.

@klOwn: Regarding the Grow-SBing: so no Oath engine against Gro? And what do you remove from the deck for 4 Duress+1Aura Fracture (assuming B2B)?

There are 2 more issues I wanted to discuss:

First, has anybody tried Future Sight in Trinity Keeper (e.g. instead of the 2nd Morphling)?

Second, has anybody tried both Impulse and Brainstorm - because I am not quite sure which is better here. While Brainstorm sounds very good with all the fetchlands (with the added bonus of hiding cards against discard), when the game boils down to topdecking Impulse is just better - even if there is nothing in the first 4 cards, you have successfully avoided several dead draws. With Brainstorm you just see that you are doomed.

[MikeR-]

kl0wn...

I haven't really kept up on keeper and all the variants like I should, so can you tell me why You're sb'ing oaths and the like..and how do you sb for some matchups? For example, Mask , U/r phid, and random combo, if u dont mind.


roche-

EDIT: Took out shorthand and gave a verbal warning for not using the search functions to learn about the KrOathan combo. -Zherbus

Relevant forum rules:

"5. You should have a working knowledge of the decktypes discussed before being qualified to post."

"3. Make your posts readable. Keep 'Netspeak' to a minimum and maximize the effectiveness of paragraph breaks and your best grammar."

[Big Blue]

The Oaths+Krosan Reclamation are there for a SB trick: you side out the Morphlings and creature control for 4 Oath+2 Krosan Reclamation with the idea of Oathing your whole library into the graveyard (once your opponent plays a creature), then you reclaim YawgWin in your upkeep with flashback and after YawgWinning you play the Grim Monolith+Power Artifact+Stroke (or Geysir) combo from the graveyard.

This idea was born in Germany (as far as I know), probably in response to the intermediate dominance of TnT decks. The combo allows for a fast win, even though you might not have established board control (which can be difficult against TnT).

Dozer brought this deck idea to TheManaDrain (although he seems to prefer the Oath-less variant, i.e. "ordinary" Keeper with the combo "splashed"), and after some discussions several people tried this deck (or variants thereof) in local tourneys.

I believe I coined the name "Trinity" after my first tourney in Chicago, due to the three possible "eigenstates" of this deck: either control (maindeck) or aggro-control (SB against control or combo with 4 Duress and 3 CotH or Negator) or combo (KrOathan engine as described above against aggro). In fact, there is a fourth possibility, namely a straightforward Oath-engine for your Morphlings against aggro with graveyard hate (e.g. if you know your opponent has 4 Crypts in his SB).

I would say Trinity Keeper, while being fun to play, is far from being mainstream. It requires some additional skill as compared to Keeper - not because it is more complicated, but because you have to adapt (change gear so to speak) after SBing, while traditional Keeper stays always a (sometimes explosive, but still) control deck.

As to your questions of what to SB:

Against combo you typically swap 4 Duress for Abyss, ZOrb, Edict and something else. Depending on whether the opposing counter deck is capable of Countering or Misdirecting you might want to get rid of the combo (Power Artifact, maybe also the Monolith and maybe even the Gesir) for more aggressive cards (Negators/CotH).

Against Mask I have no experience, but Duress sounds like a good idea. The rest depends on whether the Mask deck is U or B based.

Against URphid I would say that you take the standard control SB cards: 4 Duress + 3 CotH/Negator for e.g. ZOrb, Power Artifact, Vampiric, Abyss, Grim Monolith, Geysir, Mystical - unless you expect B2B (then you need Aura Fracture as well).

[kl0wn]

Wow, I totally didn't check this thread after everybody left so many comments. I figured I'd revive it because I had a janky idea.

Also, for the record, I stopped running Power Artifact in favor of playing Mask because I was seeing so much Gro.

First off:

Quote @klOwn: Regarding the Grow-SBing: so no Oath engine against Gro? And what do you remove from the deck for 4 Duress+1Aura Fracture (assuming B2B)?

I tried siding into "suicide Morphling" against Gro a couple of times, but it ended very badly. I won't go into anymore detail other than saying that my face got thoroughly smashed.

If I remember correctly, my SBing against Gro goes something like this:

-1 Power Artifact
-1 Grim Monolith
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Zuran Orb
-1 Mind Twist

+4 Duress
+1 Aura Fracture

Now for my bad idea:
When I was going through my piles of useless junk, I came across a card that might actually tip the game heavily into Trinity's favor when going into a control matchup. The card is:

Multani's Presence
Color= Green Type= Enchantment Cost= G UL(U)Text (UL+errata): Whenever a spell you played is countered, draw a card. [Oracle 2000/10/24]
* Will trigger when a spell is countered due to all of its targets being illegal. [D'Angelo 1999/05/01]

With the heavy green component, you will often be able to cast it early and it has the nasty effect of turning all of your opponent's counterspells into card-disadvantage. Multiples are also cumulative.

I am going to test three of these in place of the 2 CoTH and 1 Scrying Glass. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do about the random slot that is currently occupied by the Ensnaring Bridge though. I've found that I have nothing to side out for the eighth anti-control/anti-combo card that I could include.\n\n

[Big Blue]

I believe some time ago (like 2 years) at BD somebody suggested to use Multani's presence in a Franchise-like Keeper SB, but I don't know about testing results. The idea sounds good at first glance, but maybe the opponent can play around (after all, you reduce the number of threats).

I am interested what your results will be.

Since we are talking about "bad" ideas: recently I had the heretic thought that it might be possible to cut White completely for Red (thus being able to play REBs which increases your chances against Gro). Yes I know. Cutting Balance seems like a big NO-NO.

But.

If you are honest, one of the main reasons to play White in Keeper never has been Balance but Disenchant effects. Even if you play just one, there is a huge difference between 1 or 0 (in the zero case you scoop to certain artifacts/enchantments immediately). Of course, once you decided to play White the card Balance becomes a no-brainer - I am not going to question that.

Onslaught brought us a Green "Disenchant", namely Naturalize. So in principle it is possible (though maybe not advisable) to cut White completely (I am talking exclusively about Trinity Keeper here - I would never dream of cutting Balance in Keeper decks without the KrOathan engine).

So basically you have to swap the D-Blow for a Naturalize (not a big deal), cut the Balance (a big deal, but if Red can over-compensate this loss it is ok) and rely on REBs vs. B2B instead of relying on Aura-Fracture.

The advantages of Red are obvious: access to maindeck Shaman and Fire&Ice if needed, better SB options against control and Gro.

Maybe Powder Keg could come in instead of Balance. Against Gro it is simply the better option, against Sligh and Stompy you avoid Mindtwisting and Armageddoing yourself (and get rid of eventual Scrolls) and against Sui you have to pray (there you will miss Balance a lot, but in games 2/3 you have the combo and, if you need, Compost).

I suggest the following replacements in the deck:
Balance -> Keg
D-Blow -> Naturalize
eventual StoPs -> Fire&Ice/Edicts
if you want: something -> Mox Monkey

and the following SB:

4 REB
2 Duress
1 Mox Monkey
1 Dwarven Miner

4 Oath
2 Krothan

1 Compost (if Sui is present at all)

(or some metagame-dependent modification thereof).

Let me conclude with the remark that I have not even convinced myself that it will work. But neither have I convinced myself that it won't, so I leave this issue for testing and dicussion.

[Zharradan]

Quote (Big Blue @ Jan. 11 2003,14:06)If you are honest, one of the main reasons to play White in Keeper never has been Balance but Disenchant effects.

Cutting white also removes your access to the best creature removal spell printed.. and I would have thought that cutting back on creature removal in the current aggro-heavy environment would be virtual suicide.

[Fishhead]

Quote Cutting white also removes your access to the best creature removal spell printed..

Are you speaking of Balance?  

I'm not sure I agree with Big Blues contention that Disenchant was always the reason for White.  I always thought it was Balance first, then StP, then Disenchant - generally I ran into more decks with creatures than with dangerous artifact or enchantments.  I know I've Mystical'd for Balance a lot more than I've Mystical'd for Disenchant.

[Big Blue]

ok, probably I should explain my statement a bit clearer:

First of all (as mentioned above) I am talking <I>exclusively about Trinity Keeper</I>. After SBing you own most aggro decks anyway, so the lack of Balance hopefully is not too serious (and you can keep Keg against Sligh or Stompy; against all other decks you should be able to get Oath on the table with all your search and draw spells before it is too late).

Second,

Quote I always  thought it was Balance first, then StP, then Disenchant

I thought so, too (except that I would place Disenchant before StoP, since Black provides creature removal as well). I mean, I am probably one of the few on this board who have witnessed the times of 4 Balance decks (and played with versions thereof) - so Balance really is one of my favourite cards and I am aware of its devastating power and its come-back-ability. Many games with Keeper I have won solely due to Balance.

But then I analyzed more closely my own line of reasoning (maybe that was the mistake ) and this was the result: (pre-Onslaught) it is impossible to cut White because A) Balance is needed and B) a Disenchant-effect is needed. In fact, the second reason was always the stronger one for me, since Keeper is supposed to be able to deal with all possible decks, and you cannot do that without at least one Disenchant effect (and playing Crumble or Tranquility or stuff like that was out of question, since you needed 2 cards that way). So I did not even question the existence of White in Keeper. Now with Naturalize in the game it became possible.

Maybe I should provide an explicit list, in order to anchor the discussion on an example:

Unholy Trinity

Mana: 28
4 Underground Sea
4 fetchland
4 Tropical
3 Vulcanic
1 COB
1 Academy
1 Strip
1 Waste
1 Dustbowl
1 LoA
6 SoLoMoxen (no Perl)
1 Grim Monolith

Blue: 21
1 Power Artifact
4 Mana Drain
4 FoW
2 Morphling
1 Mis-D
1 Stroke
1 Geysir
1 Mystical
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Merchant Scroll
1 FoF
1 Impulse

Split: 1
1 Fire&Ice

Green: 4
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Oath of Druids
1 Naturalize

Black: 5
1 Mindtwist
1 Edict
1 YawgWin
1 Vampiric
1 Demonic

Non-mana Artifact: 1
1 Powder Keg

SB: 15

Combo: 4

3 Oath
1 Krosan

Control: 8

4 REB
2 Duress
1 Miner
1 Shaman

Rest: 3
1 Compost
1 Keg
1 ZOrb

Now, I want to be understood that this list is somewhat experimental. The lack of Regrowth, for instance, is something I am concerned about, as well as the lack of Abyss. I somehow like the idea of being able to use the combo maindeck (without increasing the number of dead cards versus control), hence I decided to play 1 Oath and 1 Krosan. Oathing out Morphlings is not too bad, and if they are all Edicted (or even earlier, since you are filling your graveyard) you still have the combo.

Maybe I should finally repeat my main motivation (apart from a somewhat scientific interest of theoretically possible "deformations" of Keeper): I want to increase the chances in the Gro-matchup, which is why playing Red seems desirable - 4 REB, 2 Duress and the second Keg from the SB seems to be nice in that respect (although the lack of Abyss is not so nice).

And yes, I still have not convinced myself

[Vegeta2711]

Splashing Red over White seems intresting. You gain back REB, Shaman and Fire/Ice which is always good. Losing Balance is the only reason I wouldn't cut white. Zuran Orb has always been fine life-gain, STP isn't really needed when you just plan to combo them out anyways. D. blow gets replaced by the green disenchant.

So it mainly is Balance > Red.

Personally I think it would depend on playstyle and metagame. I have loved Balance forever and in mixed metagames Renewed Faith is usually better than Orb in those places, D. Blow becomes better... etc etc.

I wonder if you gain anything past the REB's and the Fire/Ice really. Because as of current, it doesn't seem to look all that good outside of a control heavy metagame. Though if your looking to beat Gro it might be worthwhile... Would a Wish (Burning or Cunning) work out slightly well with a more modified SB? Cunning can fetch Edict, Reb, and anything else you may wanta add.

Oh and I loved Future Sight, sometimes it is a win more card. But, when it's important to me, it's just another bomb between Sylvan and the other power drawers to drop in control on control when you need it. ^^

I'll work out a list w/o white tommorow, hehe.

[Big Blue]

The statement Balance > Red is of course heavily metagame dependent. In a metagame without Gro I would say: simply play "standard" Trinity and you should be ok. I agree that in such a metagame Balance > Red is true, in general.

Probably klOwn's solution, namely switching to Mask, is the best when confronted with Gro. But somehow I would like to keep Trinity alife even in a metagame where Gro exists. I don't see how Trinity wins against Gro without Red. But maybe I am just overreacting.

However, let me point out that instead of tutoring for Balance you can now tutor for Oath and get Morphling and/or the combo from the graveyard. It is 1 turn slower than a clean Balance and this can cost you the game sometimes. But it is still a fast solution.

In fact, against ANY deck with creatures you can use your first tutor (directly or via tutor-chain) to fetch Oath, which often means game. So as opposed to Balance it can be played proactively.

So while you will miss Balance a lot, if only for the fact that it is so broken, so cheap and so restricted, I could imagine that Keg+Oath+Fire&Ice are good "replacements".

Some finer point of maindeck Oath (which comes in conunction with the lack of Balance to "save" you against aggro in game 1) is that you can punish your mirror-opponent for playing a Mox Monkey or a Dwarven Miner in game 1 - you can Oath up a Morphling and refuse to block. Of course, there are plenty of further Oath/Krosan tricks available - just use your imagination

[kl0wn]

Quote (Big Blue @ Jan. 12 2003,05:51)Probably klOwn's solution, namely switching to Mask, is the best when confronted with Gro.

Heh.

Actually, my statement that I switched to playing Mask because of Grow was just me poking fun at Pat Chapin's "Power Atifact beats Mask, Mask beats Grow, and Grow is the only deck keeping Power Artifact from dominating Type 1" statement.

I honestly didn't switch to Mask because I fear Grow. I switched to Mask because I wanted to play a good aggro deck that didn't die to The Abyss or graveyard hate. Not to mention, the deck looked like insane fun to play, which it most definitely is (I'm hooked).

Back to the topic at hand though.

 I think cutting White in favor of Red is a very interesting idea that deserves testing. The fact of the matter is that Trinity, even in pre-sideboard form is a much more aggressive and proactive deck than mainstream Keeper and all of the White cards, with the exception of Aura Fracture, are all reactive. I think Red would fit the overall philosophy better than White does.

I'm not sure about adding the Krosan Reclamation and Oath in the maindeck. It would seem like adding more search/drawing/tutor effects with which to win the game against both control and aggro would be generally more beneficial than adding just aggro hate to a combo deck. I understand that "turbo Morphling" isn't necesarrily a bad strategy against control, but it is a little unreliable.

A card that I would definitely like to find a way to squeeze into the deck is Read The Runes since it is another instant speed "draw x" spell like Stroke, and if you have the combo and are missing a kill card, you can draw your entire deck to find it like Academy does.

Furthermore, I would suggest a lone Fireball or Torch in place of the Read The Runes, except it is only useful when you have a lot of mana on the board or the P/A combo in play and cannot be pitched.

The reason why Dismantling Blow is in the deck is as much because it destroys artifacts and enchantments as it is an instant-speed draw spell (albeit a very weak one). Naturalize only serves as a Disenchant effect. However, with Brainstorm and extra slots to devote to draw spells (after cutting White), it should not be much of a problem.

I wholeheartedly agree with cutting Zuran Orb from the MD (if not from the SB as well), since who wants to gain life in a combo deck? The slot is better devoted to winning the game.

I would also suggest trying Zherbus's tech of running two basic Islands in your mana base, since under a Blood Moon, you can win just as easily.\n\n

[rozetta]

Versus gro, wouldn't Swords be the only reliable removal in the fact that edict will just get misdirected to you and fire/ice isn't enough to kill either dryads or ophidians?

My biggest worry about that matchup is casting misdirectable spells (and playing around daze). Misdirecting a swords will probably be useless anyway, since the gro player is probably the only one with creatures.

I could see REB being good for killing ophidians, but I'd imagine it'd be exceptionally difficult for keeper to win a counter war versus gro, or am I just paranoid? (I haven't played enough of this matchup to know).

Actually, a separate thread about playing against gro might not be a bad idea?

[Big Blue]

@klOwn: lol - I didn't get your Mask/Gro/Power Artifact statement

The idea of adding 1 Oath and 1 Krosan was triggered by the following (maybe somewhat naive) logic:
1. I took my Trinity deck with White (containing 1 Balance, 1 ZOrb and 1 Abyss, 0 StoPs and 1 Edict)
2. I decided to try to cut White and to keep the 1 Edict, since Balance (and D-Blow) were the only white cards in my deck
3. Thus I figured I had 3 slots available devoted mainly to the aggro matchup two of which are very dead against control.
4. I filled these 3 slots with Oath, Keg and Fire&Ice
5. I recognized after 1 game of playtesting against a deck with creatures that I need 1 Krosan Reclamation (Morphling was the penultimate card) and swapped the Regrowth for it

The convenient spin-off such a replacement is that you gain 2 additional SB slots (1 Oath, 1 Krosan) which you can devote to (or rather against) control or combo or whatever is your worst nightmare. Maybe that's the most important point here.

Maybe klOwn is right and you don't need the engine maindeck. However, I must admit that I find the idea of being able to tutor for Oath and end the first game right there (one way or the other) very attractive. After all, game 1 is far from being an auto-win or even a win against aggro, and cutting ZOrb, Balance and Abyss don't help in that respect. I don't see a way to tutor consistently for all 3 combo pieces in the early game, even by adding 4 Impulse (and/or Brainstorms) and a second Sylvan. After all, Trinity is NOT a pure combo deck but a control deck with a combo, which turns into a combo deck AFTER SBing against aggro.

BTW, I do have an additional draw spell as compared to your list: Timetwister. It is really very effective in that deck, at least in my metagame.

My remark of Oathing versus control should not be taken too seriously. It was meant as a new potential trick of this deck rather than being a regular way of playing this matchup It is just a point to remember when you have Oath in your hand and you have to face Mox Monkey beatdown or even Morphling beatdown. That does not imply that plan A of your strategy against control is to induce your opponent to play Mox Monkey

D-Blow is not just there because it draws 2 cards at instant speed, of course (or else we would rather play Whispers of the Muse or Scrying Glass or a second Sylvan or Skeletal Scrying or...), but because you NEED 1 Disenchant effect, and in many metagames D-Blow happens to be the best choice. You don't want to auto-lose against random-strategies or Enchantment based decks like Parfait or Enchantress. Or against Sligh if you established control modulo that cursed Cursed Scroll. Or...
Granted, 1 D-Blow is not much versus, say, Parfait. But it is infinitely more than 0 D-Blows and with all those tutors you can really draw it if you need it, or Regrow it or Reclaim it or Twister it back or YawgWin it.

Regarding the mana base, fortunately I am not concerned with Blood Moon (yet), but only with B2B. Against B2B 1 Island (and maybe 1 UP instead of the COB) seems to be sufficient (together with the SB REBs).

@rozetta: yes, that would probably be a good idea - maybe we should formulate it general enough as to attract the attention of the Paragon party - after all some of them should be facing Gro from time to time. I am going to make a separate post in this forum.

[Vegeta2711]

Well over the past few days in between doing much school work, I tested w/o White and also running one Oath and one Krosan Reclamation maindeck.

My limited results? Well I found I hated losing Balance (of course), but almost everything else I could almost do without. But, fact remains it reminded me of how much I take kickered D-blows for granted  .

REB was very fun to have vs control and Shaman helped against Keeper. If you see any decent fields of TnT, I would also run a Shattering Pulse in the SB and possibly a Pyroclasm over Keg. If I was going to run Trinity through a heavy control field, I would definitely run red over white. Or Mono-U. =)

I really did like having a MD Oath and Reclamation for either quick Morph beatdown or simply comboing them out quicker. It wasn't precisely optimal vs control (Though my first game vs Mono-U I dropped it after he dropped a Ophid, Morph beatdown was never sweeter), but it was fun having access at least partially to the combo or Turbo-Morph against Aggro and Aggro Control (Gro). Besides it gives me more slots in the SB vs control.

So in the end I cut the lifegain slot and the STP I had before to add Oath and Reclamation in. I still like my D-blow and Balance.

BTW kl0wn I tried your idea.
Keeper = Eh
Gro = Eh, but better than Keeper.
Mono-U = Great (Obviously)

The card either draws a counter for only G or it resolves and it means you now have a bit of impunity when getting into counter fights even when you have a good chance of losing them. As you'll have a replenished hand when all is said and done. Just remember to keep targeting the original spell in case you do win.

So it'll go like

Opp: Spell
Me: Counter
Opp: Counter
Me: Counter original spell again
__
Stacking makes your 2nd counter, counter the original spell. The opponents counter then resolves and hits your 1st counter. You draw a card.

Or am I wrong on this point?  It's been a while since I was doing the whole stacking counters bit.

Anyways, that's all for now.

[Big Blue]

Vegeta2711: Hey, thank you for testing my idea - it seems that it worked more or less as predicted., even though 10-20 games surely do not provide a conclusive answer, as you noted correctly.

I also thought of maybe including 1 copy of KrOathan maindeck in Trinity, even if I do NOT cut Balance for a red SB. I am not sure about D-Blow - it is fun to kick it against Keeper, but otherwise a humble Naturalize is safer and more reliable (in terms of colour and casting cost) - especially after boarding I'd like to get rid of Null Rods...

Yes, part of the motivation was to obtain 2 more slots in the SB. So probably only this will remain of my original idea. I believe that in a metagame where cutting White for Red really pays is likely to be one where Trinity is not the best choice to start with (although I am not really sure that my metagame belongs to a class where this statement really holds).

A completely different question which bothers me for some time and where I have not found a conclusive answer yet: in post-Onslaught Trinity which cantrip is better: Brainstorm or Impulse?

I am still running Impulse because I like its digging ability and because Sylvan provides fun with fetchlands anyhow, but I can imagine that others prefer Brainstorms.

Has anybody done some serious testing on this issue?

[Saucemaster]

Okay, I found myself pondering the following issue when playing Trinity vs. Mask the other day (the Mask player schooled me; there's a report in the Tournament Reports mill): typically speaking, you SB out your creature-control elements in favor of the combo against aggro; but given the immediately lethal nature of Dreadnaughts I am a little uncomfortable actually siding out Swords and Edict, for example.  So: how do you all SB against Mask?  Abyss can go, Sylvan can go, and the Morphling(s) can go; what else do you SB out?  I found myself siding out Mind Twist, Regrowth, and eventually Edict (I was running Compost in the side as well, so I needed to free up a 7th slot).  I was running a build very similar to Big Blue's version that he posted in the "Post your Keeper builds here" thread (in the regular Vintage forum), i.e. with Impulses instead of Brainstorms, but I played two Morphlings maindeck.

As far as Impulse vs. Brainstorm goes: I love Brainstorm with the fetchlands, and in my experience with Paragon Keeper I've been incredibly pleased with them, but post-SB, I want Impulse every time.  Not only does the one extra card you get to see make a difference, but if you don't find the Oath, you're four cards closer to your next one than you would be with Brainstorm.

[Big Blue]

Ok, I should have looked here first...

I posted some reply to your question below the tourney report.

Let me just add that it is possible that against Mask the Paragon version is simply superior. StoPs are great in this matchup...

And I'd side as follows:
In: 6 KrOathan (or 4, if you play already 1+1 MD)+1 Disenchant-effect+1 Compost - so it is 4-8 cards
Out (in that order): 2 Morphlings, 1 Abyss, 1 Mindtwist, 1 Sylvan, 1 Regrowth, 1 Edict, 1 off-colour Mox or 1 Wasteland