Ankh Sligh Discussion

[JBay]

Does everyboy agree? If so, what are the specific reasons, besides no synergy with barbarian ring? Thanks in advance.

[kirdape3]

Lavamancer's slow, uses up a finite resource, and takes an extra turn to become active.  It's also a 1/1 creature that is much easier to kill than a Scroll.  I wouldn't even consider Lavamancer in an area with all aggro decks; there's simply too many creatures that do more (like Cadets, Pups, Fanatics if wanted, Shaman, Vandal) in this format.  Paying R for 2 red damage is inferior to paying 3 for 2 colorless reusable damage.

[JBay]

Oh ok, thanks..that explains it..

when are you doing your mono-red article thing-a-majig btw?

[kirdape3]

Last I knew Legend's writing one.  I'm pretty saddled down with work already; 18 credit hours is unfun.  I'm having problems getting the Stompy and the R/G ones done already.

[JBay]

yeah, I'm looking forward to the r/g one, because that's always the first deck I look to for a fun casual cheap decks game. (weird kinda game) Also, that was my first deck, back in fallen empires or so.

GO FERAL THALID! (my best creature at the time)  

[BigChuck]

Two Things:

A)The article is already written, it just needs to be gone over as far as I know.

B)This is the extreme forum. Quit posting crap. You've had four posts, and  really, only the first one was relavent, as all the others had either previously been answered or were off topic. We try and maintain quality here.

[Legend]

Yes, Kirdape is correct. I wrote an article about both Ankh Sligh and Red Stompy. Zherbus has it and it'll be up with the next batch of articles. If you want a card by card look at my versions of these two Sligh variants, I suggest you take a look at my article, especially if you are not all that familiar with Sligh. Do stop with the Feral Thallids and such, though.\n\n

[Gabethebabe]

In my next tourney I am going to try Ankh Sligh, I´ve got MD almost complete, don´t have a Ruby (==> Mountain) or a Fork (==> Fireblast). Agree with the replacements or should FB be something else?

My main concern is the SB. It is kinda sucky metagame: one fully equipped Keeper, a couple of other good/semipowered decks, a lot of random things. I sadly don´t own Pyrokinesis.

My sideboard:
- 4 Mogg Fanatic
- 3 Scald - Haven´t got the 4th, few monoblue anyway.
- 2 Tormod´s Crypt (Some dragons, Squee/infestation decks)
- 2 Dwarven Miner
- 2 Bottle Gnomes
- 2 Fire/Ice

I replaced Pyrokinesis with 2 Bottle Gnomes and 2 Fire. I also considered Flameshot, which looks interesting because of the synergy with Ankh. But its sorcery speed hurts, what do you think of it?

I also expect Gro. Misdirection is not funny and with Pyrokinesis lacking in the SB, Serendibs become a menace, maybe some REB´s?

Playing against Keeper: should I make adjustments to the deck? I mean, if I want to put in Scald, what to take out? The same for the Miners. They rock vs. Keeper, but they compete with Ankhs as T2 drop and what to take out for them?

[ScaldMonger]

From my experience with the deck so far, there is no real reason for the crypts. Unless you draw into it first time and happen to also go first, your most likely wasting your time tryin to beat a combo that cant otherwise really be stopped by sligh. The crypts spot should be replaced most likely with REB. Unless ofcourse in your Meta, there really is that many infestation decks running about. For keeper I'd try to get in 4 REB for sideboard and maybe the miner, really the monkey and vandal will shine against keeper. I'd still try if I were you to get those pyrokenisis, they are really good, and are pretty cheap ($ wise). Other than that, not sure what else to put in SB. Hate to sound hypocritical, but I did run 4 crypts in my SB, but I expected to see TNT, which I don't particularly like.

[Legend]

@gabethebabe

Fine, so you don't have a Mox Ruby. This is understandable. The missing Mox Ruby is simply replaced by a Mountain. However, there is no replacement for such a unique card as Fork. I suggest you try to get one. I would not instruct anyone to acquire a Mox, because that would obviously be unreasonable. But I find it difficult to discuss replacements for Fork, because there are none. Just get a Fork somehow. Also, there is really no excuse for not being able to acquire four Pyrokinesis. It is a very inexpensive card, and really a quite necessary addition to the sideboard. For around fifteen dollars, you can have a lone Fork and four Pyrokinesis. Make it happen. As for sideboarding against Keeper, take out the four Incinerates and replace them with the Scalds. Don't bother playing those two copies of Tormod's Crypt. They only shine in the Dragon matchup, and two is not going to come even close to getting the job done anyway. I generally do not run Crypt in my sideboard, choosing instead to focus on the matchups that are more up for grabs.\n\n

[LimDul]

I took this deck to Dülmen this sunday and went 5-2 with it, which brought me rank 16 out of about 80. I got flooded a few times, though, and would strongly recommend to cut one mountain. 16 sources of red is simply enough for this deck.

@ Gabethebabe (respectfully): I think this thread is to serve the discussion about how a specific type of deck can be best tuned with regards to the dominating Archetypes in the format. I don't know if your individual situation, which is dominated by lacking quite inexpensive cards, can help us much there......just my two cents....

@ Scaldmonger: I don't think there is much use for Tormod's Crypt. 3 Rack or Ruin + 4 Pyrokinesis + 4 Price of Progress + 4 Ankh of Mishra should really be able to do the job vs. TnT......
Boarding Crypt for random reanimator or Dragon only is simply not justified.

[Legend]

I have to disagree with you about the mana sources, I have found 16 Mountains + 1 Mox Ruby to be ideal in online games, and 17 Mountains to be solid in real life. I have not had problems with mana flooding. However, I do agree with you about Tormod's Crypt. I have been saying this all along: Tormod's Crypt serves far too narrow a purpose to be included in the sideboard most of the time. My addition of Rack and Ruin to the deck has proven to be more than sufficient in battling TNT. I am willing to ignore the Dragon matchup.\n\n

[Nevyn]

I played in a Toronto tourney yesterday (having sold my cards a while ago I borrowed from Bebe, who had build legend's exact list I believe). Here are my observations, with the footnote than I only played about 15 games and had some weird matchups.

Observation on mana: I got mana flooded a surprising amount of the time. I think the curve is so light on this particular list that 22 sources may be too many without thinning or further utility (such as factories). I think the deck would really like to have a mox ruby, and am wondering if even mox diamond (which I, in principle, don't like either) would be helpful. Ankh is just so much better going against possible FoW than against counters and drains, plus I kept seeing turn one fetch-lands and then no more from the opponents (which they may have held back, but they never had mana difficulties).

Also, I am surprised that no one has brought up lava blister as a sb option yet. It's 6 for 2 damage ratio is right on and it's  a bargain if it kills a land. It fits the curve ok and is not too harsh if drained. Most importantly, it either creates a mana need that complements the ankh and wastes, or hits like an average price of progress while being usable in the first couple turns (where price would be too small), thus giving it more of a shot at getting past a counter wall.

[Nevyn]

I almost forgot, I concede that my matchups were unusual, but having practised against a reanimator and played against a Pandeburst deck, I really wish Bebe had put crypts in the side. Rack and ruin may be better versus TnT, but crypt helps in more matchups,so people should consider what they expect locally before dismissing it.

[FeverDog]

Obviously, your own metagame is what determines your sideboard. The reason Legend doesnt like Crypts is because he doesnt expect to face PandeBurst or Reanimator very often, if at all. If you expect to see some kind of reanimation like Dragon or the like, then Crypt can be an excellent sb card, but its probably a little too narrow for a "normal" metagame(if there is such a thing).

[Sylvester]

Nevyn: You should know better about the lava blister. When you need those 6 last damage before {moat/propaganda/keg for 1/...} hits you get a land, and when you want to mana screw the opponent, blister gets 6 damages... It's always the same with those opponent chooses cards.

The only time it could be useful is when the opponent has reached 3 mana sources and is going to slap (eg) The Abyss next turn, and you can win now with 6 damage. And even then, a mox in hand screws you....

Of course, you could argue this scenario is pretty common, but how often is it going to happen in a game that isn't already lost or won, while you have blister in hand?

[LimDul]

I agree with Sylvester concerning the blisters and am glad to hear I'm not the only one who is getting flooded. Regarding the manabase I wouldn't want to run factories, though, because that would mean only 13-15 red sources, which in my eyes won't be sufficient. I have been testing again today with 15 mountains + Mox Ruby and got flooded only 3 times out of 31, while I got screwed only 2 times. This is a big improvement compared with what I reached before. I'm not certain about how to fill the slot, though, yet. Right now I'm running a wheel, which in spite of all the risks is quite good in those situations, where you got your opponent low on life and an Ankh on the table, so that they won't play many lands anymore...and these situations appear quite often; I actually found that with 2 Ankhs or Ankh/Scald on the table you create kind of a soft lock, which is also great in battling down a Zuran Orb.

[Nevyn]

sylvester, I am not saying that blister is a guaranteed inclusion, but I believe it to be worth consideration. To me the biggest strike against it is whether other cards are more effective.

You stated that it won't kill an opponent when drawn off the top later. This is true. However if it kills a mana source against a deck with nonbasics (many of whom now run fetches), then it puts more pressure on them to play into ankh or disrupts what they are doing. The usefulness of this is debatable, I suppose.

On the other hand, I disagree with your assesment of it's early usage. If I cast it turn 1/2, and the opponent takes six, that is AMAZING for me and very efficient damage in a deck trying to subtract 20. If you get an opportunity, a fetch-land is a good early play. I will accept the argument that fetches make this less useful (although they do help your ankh), and that it is perhaps a bad topdeck after about turn 4-5, but I disagree with the assertion that it does not help early.

I don't like punisher cards in general, but they tend to be better in bunches, and while narrow, blister is one of the more effective ones. Remember that Ankh is essentially the first punisher card (which is probably why it is so contentious)

[bebe]

I did a fair bit of testing with Ankh Sligh before handing the deck to Nevyn. My original build was a little different from Legend's - less land to start. But I decided to just build Legend's deck for Nevyn as he said he wanted to try it out.
I did not have a Mox or Lotus in the deck - now I would normally as I use less land but they were in my TnT deck. I like the Lotus and Nevyn could have played first turn
Ankh a few times if he drew it. I know it sucks mid-game. So does a mountain. So replace one with it.
I think Crypts will become more and more important. Good vs. TnT, Reanimator, Pandeburst, and the new deck out of  Dulmen. You will see that deck at a store near you coming soon.
Nevyn, I'm sorry - I used the Crypts in the TnT sideboard as I thought it had a better chance to top four ( it did ). I offered you the TnT deck so stop whining about it  .
Nevyn promises to rebuild Turbo-Nevyn again but I'm making him a Parfait to be safe ... end of random mumblings.

[Ric_Flair]

A while back someone asked why Piledriver was not included in the deck and Fever Dog's response was that this was an Ankh Sligh deck, not a Goblin Sligh deck.  My question is why are those two things mutually exclusive.  I have thrown together the deck using Gobbos and Ankh and the combination has been great, at least so far.  Lackey makes your goblins free under the Ankh and you get access to some super cheap finishing burn (Goblin Grenade).  Just a question, though.  I am not doubting the choices people have made I would just like to know what I am missing

Second issue.  What about Hand to Hand in the SB to prevent any tricks during the combat phase like Welding out an Artifact fatty and Zorbing lands.  Does that work?  Just another thought.

[Dave Kaplan]

They can just do it in responce to the attack step, Hand to hand used to stop COP:Red, but it's terrbile now. I think you are tending more towards putting ankhs in Red Stompy, which is possible, but the deck is very tight as is. It's very much a consideration, though.

[PsychoCid]

They might seem mutually exclusive, and it is because of a) the curve of casting costs and b) the amount of goblins that make piledriver and grenade optimally effective.

Goblin Sligh already has room for only 12 burn spells (all of which top ankh by fitting the curve better and being able to remove blockers), and, in my experience, you certainly wouldn't want to drop any goblins, as they are particularly important and you want as many out as you can get.
Obviously the prime candidate for removal would be Flunkies (since it's a 2cc slot)--but try dropping Flunkies for Ankhs and tell me you don't suffer for it.

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote A while back someone asked why Piledriver was not included in the deck and Fever Dog's response was that this was an Ankh Sligh deck, not a Goblin Sligh deck.  My question is why are those two things mutually exclusive.  I have thrown together the deck using Gobbos and Ankh and the combination has been great, at least so far.  Lackey makes your goblins free under the Ankh and you get access to some super cheap finishing burn (Goblin Grenade).  Just a question, though.  I am not doubting the choices people have made I would just like to know what I am missing

Ankh Sligh is simply a slower deck compared to those that run Goblins, and cutting other damage sources for extra goblins isn't needed.  Looking at Goblin Sligh, you're throwing your mana into Lackeys and Reckless Charge during the first couple turns.  In Goblin Sligh, you're looking for the quick kill, so since Goblins come out quickly via Lackey, you kill with them before they become Keg-bait.  Also, Mogg Fanatics and the burn spells like Goblin Grenade fill the graveyard quickly so that Barbarian Rings can quickly deal damage.  I know I'm comparing two decks to you, but Goblin Sligh is simply built around the speed of the Goblins, therefore, the deck is all about speed, as are the Goblins if you want them to work.  Ankh Sligh slows everything down, causing less synergy with the goblins.  With an Ankh on the board facing a mox or two, I would rather have a Gorilla Shaman on the table to cripple my opponent than have a Lackey and the couple goblins put out and having a Keg waiting for them (via the moxen leaving those couple land open for counterspells etc..), killing your main strategy as  you will be cutting back Scrolls (ie, Keg hits anyway, shaman kills opposing moxen, shaman and probably a pup or cadet die, you drop scroll that may soon be able to be active, if not right away) etc... if you want enough goblins for piledriver to be effective.  Therefore, it goes back to the synergy - the goblin hoarde doesn't have synergy with Ankh Sligh, as it is a slower deck that is really built on diversifying threats for flexibility, not making them more uniform (like Goblin Sligh does and what the Goblins do).  

Quote Second issue.  What about Hand to Hand in the SB to prevent any tricks during the combat phase like Welding out an Artifact fatty and Zorbing lands.  Does that work?  Just another thought.

I don't see the point of Hand to Hand here.  Rack and Ruin does perfectly fine against TnT, Mask, etc... As for control ZOrbing during the combat phase, this would most likely be to protect against lethal damage.  Therefore, you are potentially winning already, and the less land your opponent has in play, the better since this could force your opponent to play another land the following turn, which may put him back in that same bad position again or close to it.  Therefore, Hand-to-Hand simply isn't needed.

[Legend]

This is addressed to no one in particular.

All I want to say here is that the components of Ankh Sligh and Red Stompy ARE in fact mutually exclusive. They are COMPLETELY different decks. Ankh Sligh is a slower, more versatile deck. Light disruption combines with more burn,  fewer creatures, and punisher elements. Red Stompy is simply a blitz deck, nothing else. The goal is to reduce your opponent to zero life without ANY detours. This means no disruption or mana-denial/punishment of any sort. That is why I coined the term "Red Stompy" - because the deck is so Stompy-like in its goal and structure.  Furthermore, the manabases are totally different as well, and it would be impossible for Red Stompy to support Ankhs as a result. I discuss this in my article that will be up soon, so if anyone else needs further clarification about this subject, check it out.

[Legend]

I acquired a Mox Ruby today. This change will be reflected in the decklist at the start of this discussion and in the upcoming article. So now -1 Mountain, +1 Mox Ruby for real life tournaments, just as in my TMD Invitational decklist.

[Amosw99]

I saw a guy playing at the Dallas prerelease what looked like an exact netdeck of Legends list for the maindeck but with a different, and well thought out sideboard. He played with:

4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Ball Lightning
4 Browbeat
3 Tormod's Crypt

I'm not entirely sold on the lack of Mogg fanatics, but he explained that in the matchups that fanatic would be good in to side in the browbeats and ball lightnings and just deal 20 to the nugget by bashing through all the littler creatures. He also said that with the Crypts and REB's he actual has a reasonable matchup against all but the fastest combo.

I think that the biggest strike against the sideboard is the lack of scalds because of their interaction with ankh. Also, I'm not sure if the browbeats are actually better vs. aggro than pyrokenises would be.

What I do like is the sideing of ball lightning and I also like the ability to steal wins from decks you useually shouldn't beat (dragon, ReapLace etc.) with the crypt/REB combination.

I'm not advocating this as the best sideboard or anything, in fact I don't think I would take this to a tourney I wanted to win. But I liked the ideas it presents and thought that it would be beneficial to hear arguments for/against ball lightning and browbeat in the side.

Thanks,
Amos

[Legend]

I don't like that sideboard at all.

RED ELEMENTAL BLAST - I have already made my feelings about blasts known during this discussion - I don't like them. They don't impact the game enough to make the cut in my sideboard. Scald is much better than Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast against any sort of blue-based control deck. Blasts will have a very limited impact on the overall flow of the game, while Scald is an IMPACT card. Scald changes games. It wins games against control decks. On several occasions against Keeper, I have managed to establish the Ankh/Scald "lock," which is just brutal.

BALL LIGHTNING - This is a VERY poor choice in my opinion. The RRR in the casting cost makes it far too unwieldy for my tastes. In what situations would this get sided in against? Mogg Fanatic is superior in the aggro matchups, allowing you to take out an opposing creature and still inflict a bit of damage. Ball Lightning is not difficult to stop. If you tap out for the Ball, your opponent can simply respond by bolting it and seizing the tempo. Of course, Ball Lightning stinks against control, so I don't see how it fits in.

BROWBEAT - Again, not in favor of this card. The casting cost is not particularly attractive. The only three mana card in my sideboard is Rack and Ruin, and only because the effect is so utterly devastating. Even then, I am only running three copies of Rack and Ruin. I find Pyrokinesis and Mogg Fanatic to both be better options than Browbeat. The lack of Pyrokinesis in this guy's sideboard is a gross oversight. Browbeat does not belong - the price is not right.

TORMOD'S CRYPT - I am disposed a little more favorably toward this card, but I almost invariably do not run it, because it only truly shines against Worldgorger. Worldgorger is not played in my area, and I don't see it all that often in general. Also, I have already dicussed my willingness to concede bad matchups in order to focus on the matchups that are up for grabs. The presence of decks such as ReapLace and Pandeburst is not a good reason to run the Crypt unless you play in a totally wacky metagame featuring multiples of these decks. I could see running the Crypt if the situation truly called for it, but it is usually too narrow to make the cut over more versatile cards such as Pyrokinesis, Mogg Fanatic, and Scald. Rack and Ruin, while not particularly versatile, is strong against a commonly played deck in TNT.\n\n

[Terevaune]

I tried a deck similar to this a while ago (I still run 2 fireblast), and we tested ball lightning.  In the end the best use for it was to trade it to the store owner for good cards.  It will get hit with mana drain, fire ice, mog fanatic, masticore, plow or any number of other things.  This is assuming you even get to cast them, as even with 17 red sources they will be hard to cast.  I never once played a matchup where these were good, even matchups were they looked like they would be such as mono blue, parfait and enchantress.

Browbeat is almost always too expensive to support, and even if you do get to draw, likely you have just given them an extra turn to stabilize.

[Amosw99]

I agree that that sideboard isn't optimal, I especially think that Scald belong over the REB's, but I think you are selling ball lightning and browbeat short.

Just as Scald is more of an IMPACT card than REB, ball lightning is more of an IMPACT card than mogg fanatic  
In the situations where mogg fanatic would live to deal the 6 points of damage that ball lightning can be MUCH better.
Lets look at ball lightnings drawbacks
1) costs RRR, juicy mana drain target, can be unreliable because you only have 17 sources of R
2) easy to remove with reactive spells, I.E. fire/ice, Stp, bolt

The times that ball is sided in are against other aggro decks, and against combo decks where you need as quick a clock as possible. Most aggro and combo decks have such tight mana curves that they end the early turns of the game tapped out so one of ball lightnings main drawbacks, it's vulnerability to spot removal almost never comes up.
Also, you can often produce RRR if not by turn 3 then by turn 5 and the 6 points of damage can often act as a finisher or at least put them in burn range.

Browbeat puts your opponent in a quandry as either choice they make is very good for you. It's either a 3 mana lava axe or a 3 mana ancestral and usually the next 3 cards contain more than 5 damage (barring drawing multiple land). Against a deck that cannot mana drain it (keeper, Urphid, Mono blue) and cannot race it (academy, WGdragon, Mask) it's golden.

Also, when sligh is running 4 balls and 4 browbeats after sideboarding then each one drawn makes all the others better. I don't think I have ever lost a game in which I played any combination of 3 balls/browbeats.

On the crypts, I think that they are the least 'experimental' of the cards and are definatley correct in some metagames while being incorrect in others. If there is alot of graveyard based combo and TnT then crypts are a good call, otherwise rack and ruin or pyrokenisis should fill this slot I think.

I have not tested either browbeat or ball lightning in this specific build, but I have played MANY games with a sligh build that ran both of them main (metagame choice). I'm certain that ball lightning is usually both unexpected and very effective, and that browbeat usually pulls it's weight and flat out wins games when drawn in multiples.
Thanks,
Amos

[Legend]

I don't see Ball Lightning at all. It really is not going to help you in the slightest against combo. Not in the slightest. Against decks like Worldgorger or Academy, you are either going to get lucky and win, or you aren't. There is really not much of a gray area there. Ball Lightning is not the answer to combo. As far as it being an impact card, I don't agree. It is not an impact card. Being that its casting cost is unwieldy and it is so easy to stop, its chances of making an impact on the game are slim. Do you really want to spend RRR for a card that can be stopped by Lightning Bolt, Incinerate, Mogg Fanatic, Pyrokinesis, and Cursed Scroll? Not to mention what control decks can do to a Ball Lightning - Mana Drain, Plow, Fire/Ice, etc. etc.

Now, let's move on to Browbeat. Once again, at three mana, I am already skeptical. So let's then move ahead to the real heart of the issue. You would side in Browbeat against aggro, correct? Well, almost without fail, any intelligent opponent will choose to take the five damage, since letting you draw three would most likely result in even more damage. So once you accept that premise (which is a correct one), you come down to what Browbeat really is: five damage to target aggro opponent, for three mana, and without the ability to target an opposing creature, or creatures. That is suboptimal.\n\n