Keeper versus Gro

[Big Blue]

This thread results from some issues raised in the recent Trinity thread. But it is by no means restricted to the Trinity-community. In fact, I would like to hear some input,  from other Keeper players, be it Paragon-Keeper, pre-Onslaught Keeper, Impulsive Keeper, Keeper with or without the Power Artifact/Grim Monolith combo splashed etc.

To simplify the discussion I would like to know

1. Which Keeper version you play (not a whole list - just a phrase like "Paragon with the combo" or "Ubrw with 4 Impulse" or "Trinity" is probably enough; maybe indicate the number of basic Islands and whether or not you play UP)

2. Your experience against Gro

3. Your SB strategy

4. Your playing strategy in games 2 and 3
You can skip point 4. if you like because Keeper is notorious for being unable to follow a fixed strategy...

I will start:

1. Trinity (1 Island, 1 UP)

2. I have watched 2 games against Paragon-Keeper with the combo instead of Brainstorms and I know in principle how Gro works (not very much, I know); the Keeper player won 2-1 in rather close games (he had 1 Island and 1 UP in his deck)

3. I would follow the advice to add 4 Duress and 1 Aura Fracture for the 2 combo pieces, the Vampiric, the Mystical and the Stroke (but maybe also suicide MOathling coul work, couldn't it?); don't play KrOathan engine

4. Duress away good stuff and try to survive until Morphling shows up; kill B2B with Aura Fracture if needed (and allowed by opponent); get Island with the first or second fetchland

[Maxx Matt]

1) i'm playing Azhrei Paragon now becase it is the better version i've tested until now. i play an island instead of an underground and UP instead of 2° city. the remaining maindeck is equal to Az's one.

2) i tested a lot against different gro building:

Vs.UWG gro: it has a lot of duals if not only duals and my wastes aren't unuseful in this matchup. i can screw it enough not to cast Mr.Oppressor and if i can bring into play The Abyss and preventing him from Gush-ing  all the game i win a lot against this version. The problem could be an early Meddling Mage that call some nasty counters such as FoW or Drain during game 1 o r Powder Keg game 2 and 3.

Vs. Emerald Alice. game 1 against EA is the worst matchup among all  gro buildings i've faced.  he couldn't be easily manascrewed due to the presence of many basics lands and my wastes usually were slowed by his own fetchlands or/and fizzles for his Gushes.  if i can mantain under four mana, for any reason, i've the possibility to win, doing some nasty tricks with my restricted cards... but it is a Chess Game, not a Magic The Gathering Game... the first who fail doing a move is brutally slayed!.  

Vs. Supermask. it has the same engine of gro and it has only different winners ( illusionary mask- dreadnaught+werebears  instead of Driads+ werebears...  ).  if i can bring into game an early shaman and not for chumpblocking creatures i can control illusionary mask enough to survive his 12/12.  but having a shaman in play, isn't so funny for me because it turns his usually dead misdirection effects into useful and strong spells...


3)i usually side.
+2 sword
+2 keg
+1 fracture (if BtB could come out from his maindeck + side )

-1 mystical
-1 edict
-1 Renewed Faith
-1 stroke
-1 shaman

i would bring in some Reb  too if i face EA, because he usually increase the number of BtB.


i didn't play any game against Pat Chapin's Gro and i don't know if it perform better than the other version of gro i faced until now...


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Maxx Matt
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[Rico Suave]

1) Close enough to Paragon version.

2) I do pretty well against Gro.  I don't want to name numbers, but it's not really scary as is.  

3) My boarding:
-1 Renewed Faith
-1 Braingeyser
-1 Stroke of Genius
-2 Cunning Wish
-1 Mind Twist
-1 Gorilla Shaman
+1 StP (2 maindeck already)
+2 Powder Keg
+3 REB
+1 Skeletal Scrying

I call it "I will not fear Misdirection" sideboarding.  

4) My strategy is to just remove their threats, stop their card-drawing, draw some cards of my own here and there, and eventually play Morphling.  Most of my cards are 1:1, whereas a lot of theirs are 2:1 in my favor.  I just let that eat away at their hand.  I treat it more like a control mirror than anything, except my StP's are useful and they don't have Yawgmoth's Will.

[CrazyCarl]

Quote I treat it more like a control mirror than anything, except my StP's are useful and they don't have Yawgmoth's Will.

Or Balance, or Mind Twist, or any way to remove Morphling for that matter .

I basically try to bleed their FoW's away to make their Misdirections useless or near useless.

[Fishhead]

1) I've played several different Keeper variants against Gro over the last 6 months.  I played Paragon Keeper against it last FNM.

2) In my experience it's a tough matchup.  No surprise there.  Basically, if I resolve Abyss or a Strip Mine hits home, I win.  If I Mana Drain their first 2CC creature, I can often gain control.  If I have to play catchup, trying to find point removal or tutor for solutions, I lose.  I went 1-3 at FNM, though I believe my opponent opened with Island->Emerald->critter in most games.  Its very difficult to come back once you get behind the curve and have to react to their play.  Generally, I do better than that (or Gro does worse , I'd say 50/50 is a pretty realistic assessment, though it depends on the exact version a lot.  I generally crush the UWG version (6-0 in tournament play, against good players), but a good player with a UG version is more like 50/50.  

3) I bring in ReBs and 3xKegs.  "Keg for 2" just slaughters the versions with few creatures.  Bring in as many Kegs as you can, even at the expense of ReBs.  I SB out Mis-D'able stuff like Mind Twist, 'Geyser and Stroke.  I like to keep the Tutors in since Gro is so vulnerable to Abyss or Strip Mine.  If you play Trinity, its not impossible to keep the Stroke and try to win after gaining control.  One horrible flaw in Gro is that they have to show you their hand to Land Grant.  Ugh.  (I'm not sure why Gro players havent moved to the Fetch Lands; being able to do free tricks with Brainstorm and Land Grant doesnt seem worth showing your hand at the start of the matchup.  And fetching basic Island is so important to this crappy mana-base.)

[Rogue]

Since I have a good ammount of experience from the opposite of the matchup, I would like to chime in with my observations as well.
1. I have played against paragon for the most part.
2. My experience if that if it is a well built, well played keeper deck of any making, but especially zherbus version, the matchup game 1 is 50/50 or slightly less. I would like to thank Fishhead and Maxx Matt for confirming what I have been telling people for quite some time-that ug is the hardest for keeper, and adding white is generally not going to make your deck better. Their experience(as well as my own), combined with a bit of common sense(btb is decent against keeper, isnt it?), seems to point this way.
3. I board out my kegs for btb's(I dislike this, but it is about the only way to go, other than removing cantrips). The board that I find to be best against me is reb, extra removal, and aura fracture. This tends to help keeper match my counter power and allows them the ability to have good answers to my threats. Moat and keg are also obviously good, but keg can be too slow, and moat is also pretty costly. I still dislike seeing them, but a good old plow does the job about as well most of the time(7 2cc creatures isn't a ton).
4. Your trinity strategy seems fine to me. The matchup is basically aggro control versus control. If Gro tries to be cute and play the long game, it will probably lose. This isn't to say that reckless abandon is correct, but you need to remember that you are the agressor. Therefore, simply dealing with gro's threats and limiting their draw tends to be a fine strategy in my experience.