Paragon Keeper 2003 (Zherbus Remix)

[Mith]

Perhaps dropping City isn't so bad an idea...especially considering the synergy of 5 fetches with four brainstorms and the second future sight I'm testing out.

Thanks for the great suggestion ShadowLotus...I'll try it out

Edit: One more question...does Gorilla Shaman pull still pull his weight for you guys? I've rarely been unhappy to see him, but I still wonder if the spot he takes up could be put to better use.

[ump]

With Gorilla Shaman and Fire/Ice falling out of favor in many people's decks, the only reason to splash red anymore is for Red Elemental Blast.  Shattering Pulse can probably be replaced with another Disenchant.  Now I know that REB is a really good card that can do a lot from countering spells to killing togs, but what to people think about cutting red completely?  The countering aspect can be somewhat replaced with Duresses.  I personally feel that Abyss can come back keeping two swords maindeck.  Then, with the extra slots available in the sideboard, you can fit more artifact hate such as Energy Flux and/or Aura of Silence.  I haven't completed my testing on this yet, so I am unsure right now if it is a good idea or not.

[LoA]

I've never been a fan of the second City of Brass, mostly because I run the exact same manabase as ShadowLotus and I've found you really want that 5th fetchland if you're running the lone Island as Blood Moon protection.  I'm flip-flopping between 3 and 4 Brainstorms at the moment, and they've been golden there too.

Has anyone found that running 2 Future Sights and 2 Morphlings (even though these cards are amazing) can lead to clunky opening hands.  Yes, this version of Keeper has more ways to eliminate unwanted cards than previous versions, but still....

[Zherbus]

@Ump: REB is so key and Shattering Pulse really allows for alot of flexability maindeck. I tried cutting colors and what I ended up was with Cunning Wish being worse, and my sideboarded games being NOWHERE near as dominant against other control decks. There is just something to be said for a control matchup where you have 2 (or 3) Duress, 4 Reb, and 2 Scryings.

@LoA, JP, ShadowLotus: I like City of Brass because:

1) I run Zuran Orb and dislike a certain degree of the deckthinning side effect of fetchlands.

2) It really color fixes everything. When you draw things on game 2 like Skeletal Scrying, Balance, and REB, you want to have that City of Brass and a Dual in hand and not a fetchland that only takes care of one of those colors.

Fetchlands are great, but 4 is enough for me. Keep in mind I also anticipate Wastelands increase in numbers and while fetchlands strengthen the early game, reducing you to have to topdeck a colored source just scares me.

[Mith]

Zherbus: How have the Duress been working for you? Do you ever miss running Gorilla Shaman?

[Zherbus]

I rarely ever miss Shaman, namely because against the better decks in the format, mana screwing is very hard to do. As far as artifact sweeping goes, Pulse has filled the role if need be. I just want to note here that Gorilla Shaman hasn't been in my deck for a very long time.

Duress has been great. I started with three, which was way too many (too much black) for the manabase I am working with. Two seems to be the right amount.

Against Sligh it has been amazing since now I can get rid of an Ankh before it ever starts going to work and (as someone mentioned earlier) it lets you see just how much burn they are packing.

It really just has a fistful of things in every matchup that it can grab and dramatically swing the game in your favor. One thing I've noticed against Hulk is how stunting taking an Intuition can be, for example.

[Ufactor, the Restricted]

Quote (jpmeyer @ June 05 2003,18:00)ShadowLotus has the exact mana base that I have in my Keeper test deck.  It's really smooth.

JP-Again, I realize that the focus of this post is Zherbus' remix, but could you post the differences in your list?

[jpmeyer]

Just Brainstorm over Zorb, Mis-D over Duress, Gorilla Shaman over Abyss, and Morphling over Core.

[Mith]

JP, how's MisD working out for you in Keeper? It seems to be pretty decent in Hulk, but then again Keeper isn't trying to protect a Tog...

[jpmeyer]

I haven't touched that Keeper in a while.  I really just have it to test with so I don't bother teaching it out that much.

[Izihobip, Harbinger of Do]

This is going to sound kind of goofy, but if Hulk Smash is giving you trouble, have you considered playing a wishable AK for the matchup?

[Fever]

I believe someone mentioned that over in the HULK thread, about siding out one AK to wish for in the mirror. I think that, if HULK gains enough popularity, it may become an option for Keeper players. However, its not running rampant quite yet, so we will have to wait and see.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Ok, I've been holding this in for quite a while now, but here goes...What do you guys think about a MD Twister? I've played Paragon Keeper for a while now (-1 Masticore, -1 Swords, +1 Abyss, +1 Morphling), and there are NUMEROUS times where I've won with less than 10 cards in the library (even a  couple with less than 5).  I know that it doesn't happen very frequently, but it can. It seems that Timetiwster would be a big saver for these scenarios. I've tested it in 1 of the duress spots (with the other spot occupied by MisD), and so far, it seems OK. Duress is pretty weak where I play, often only nailing a rancor, or the like. Plus, in the late game, Duress is crap (unless playing against control, something I rarely see). Twister does suck early, but it might be useful late game. Anyways, just a thought.

[Radagast]

Quote  and there are NUMEROUS times where I've won with less than 10 cards in the library (even a  couple with less than 5)

Wouldn't the key word in there be "won"? That would mean you don't really need anything else for those situations.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Well, they've all been close calls. Something Inside me just worries about those situations. It's like I'm in a rush to win, once I get Morphling...and sometimes, When morphling hits, I can't attack (ex., They have a story circle out or there is another morphling in play). Also, Twister has been really good to me, always drawing me good hands, and giving the opponent bad hands. Another main reason for my justification for Twister is that I play in a field full of Sui.

[Amuraivel]

I know the temptation to run Twister is great (I somehow cannot resist).  But, competitive Vintage implies that you want to win, not simply pull of stylish plays (Lotus, Land, Mox, Twister), and as Radagast pointed out you won the games.  I would only run twister if you see alot of SUI and run Tormod's Crypt main.  Otherwise it will just end up being force food, and extremely conditional, but I must say it has bailed me out of a TNT situation.  But I think that it is best to leave Twister in your Academy deck.

--Amuraivel

[Fever]

Here is something that may make it slightly easier for you to cut Twister from your deck: Its not really part of the Power9.

Really, in terms of power level, its not even in the top 20. I used to stick Twister in almost every deck when i started playing, but its just so situational its not even funny. If you do decide to keep it in, make sure you run Gorilla Shaman at least.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I'm still very fond of it. While Playing with in my Keeper deck, it has been golden a few times, and has never really let me down (especially with a future sight/abyss on the board). The thing is, I DO see abunch of Sui. I'll think about cutting it, but it seems pretty strong to me. If I do cut it though, What should I replace it with? Duress has been sub-par for me, and I found 4 Mana Drain + 4 Force of Will have been enough counters for me. In any case, I will test it some more.

[Zherbus]

The idea came across many times since I have included Future Sight. I won't include it while so many of the formats best decks are so explosive and will often abuse those fresh new 7 more than I could.

As for the SB'ed AK, it all depends on how big Hulk gets. If it gets anywhere as obnoxious as Gro-a-Tog was, then count on it being a staple SB card.

[Mith]

Have a lot of people been having problems with Hulk? So far, my matchup has been pretty good. After adding the two Duress as Zherbus suggested, it seems to be even better. I'm still not entirely sold on such a proactive card...but so far I can't really complain

Maybe it's just me, but despite their card drawing power and counters, I feel pretty confident packing 4 StP and 4 REB.

[Maxx Matt]

if i would play 2 future sight and play all games around getting one of them in play, proactive spells as duress are pure gold.

shaman and F/I are the only cards that i can take out to let me adding them to the maindeck.

nowadays i'm playing the list written above and with this configuration i raise a lot the winning rate of my keeper deck in the "ex-GroAtog" match-up and i'm very very very satisfied.

(8)
4 drain
4 FoW

(3)
2 Morphling /1 Morph + 1 Trenches
1 Mox Monkey ( sexy picture...  )

(11)
1 Merchant
1 Mystical
1 Demonic
4 Brainstorm
4 Wish

(3)
1 F/I
2 Sword
1 Balance

(3)
1 YAwgmoth's
1 Mind Twist
1 Time Walk

(6)
1 Ancestral
1 Skeletal Scryng
2 Future Sight
1 FoF

(26)
3 Volcanic
3 Tundra
2 Underground
1 Island
4 Waste
1 Strip
1 LoA
6 SoLoMoxen
5 Fetch


side:
2 Sword
1 Edict
4 ReB/3 ReB+1 Stiffle
1 BeB/1 Disenchant
1 Celestial Dawn
1 Sacred Ground/1 The Abyss
1 Vampiric
1 Disenchant
1 CoP: Red
1 Ebony Charm
1 Shattering Pulse

my meta is really relly really complosed only by gro, atog, tnt and artifact based deck. not other archetips arrive usually to top 8...

-sligh isn't so usual  but 8 blast are scary, so non blu bombs re gold,
-blood moon's are only in tnt and lock&stock deck so i'm not fearing it a lot is counter-power backup
-Ur-Phidian and monoblu are disappeared from the metagame
-monoblack is not so rielvant here, but with my mana base if i face a well built suicide i would be very scared from his sinkhole and wastes... . the 5 fetch help me a lot...


the choices that i have done ( such as 4 wish, less land, full set of waste, no zuran and some cards, in the side, such as sacred ground and celestial dawn ) that differs from paragon's current lists are only based on my specific meta.

i could drop shaman and FIre, but the mana explosion of a stax deck will result as near as unstoppable and without fire i  have to kill welder, specters, pup, nantuko and other little weenies  in other NON productive or too mana intensive ways ( "wish for..." ... )

i'll test duress right now but after july, all the "old glories " of the past metagame will come back IMHO ( fera Ur-phidian, monoblu, monoblack, monored!!!! ...   ).so i don't know if i would have room for them in my maindeck...


-----------
Maxx Matt
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[Diablos8]

...isn't Sex Monkey Uktabi Orangutan???

I think you mean 'Mox' Monkey...

[Maxx Matt]

2 paints for Gorilla Shaman.. so 2 Nick... . The Hungry One and the Sexy One... i usually play with the PoWEr oF ThE SexY OnE fROm mY SIdE oF The GaME TAbLe...

[Fever]

Actually, Diablos8 is right, Sex Monkey refers to Uktabi Orangutan and not Gorilla Shaman.

You are free to refer to it as you like, just know that everyone else interprets "Sex Monkey" as the Uktabi, so there will always be confusion if you keep referring to it that way.

[Zherbus]

Quote if i would play 2 future sight and play all games around getting one of them in play, proactive spells as duress are pure gold.

Whenever I ran Future Sight, I'd seemingly always draw one in my opening hand. I really hate clogging myself up like that, which is why I board a Vampiric Tutor to just grab Future Sight when I need it.

Quote i'll test duress right now but after july, all the "old glories " of the past metagame will come back IMHO ( fear Ur-phidian, monoblu, monoblack, monored!!!! ). so i don't know if i would have room for them in my maindeck...

Mono Blue is really marginal against all the upper tier decks, I expect little to no Mono Blue. Suicide will always be kept in check by Ankh Sligh and TnT. URPhidian lost one of its 'targets' and I question its potency as well.

The bottom line here is that people think the metagame is going to revert to last summers metagame for some reason as if TnT and Hulk never existed. That's pretty much not true and I expect the metagame to evolve forward instead of backwards.

[Black_plague]

@Zherbus: Have you tested the Your Mother match up yet. I feel this could be a difficult match for keeper and i'd like your opinion on this.
thnak you

[Grand Inquisitor]

i've played a few games against paragon keeper.  the decks are similar enough, so much of the matchup depends on the draw (even more on the playskill...crazycarl>GI).

recent adjustments to Your Mother have improved the matchup (mind twist, another duress, uber-secret tech), however, the 'speed' of cunning wish over burning wish is definitely a factor.

at the end of the day (especially since cunning gets answers while burning gets bombs), keeper is trying to 'hold' Your Mother from going off, while Your Mother is trying to find an opening to force through y.will or future sight.  their respective success is often a coin flip.

[Zherbus]

Listen to Grand Inquisitor then add a sprinking of playskill to the batch. Preheat the oven to 350 and bake for 50 minutes. That's a good answer pie!

[CrazyCarl]

My one match against your mother went well for me, with me winning the majority of the games.

I ran busZherb's list tonight, sans Scroll for Fire/Ice, then the JP/ShadowLotus mana base.  It worked ok... sorta.  The Fire/Ice was pretty good one match, then I got mana fucked against awfulstax.dec(he wastelanded one of my blue sources and I didn't draw another etc).  I was unhappy.  Then I helped playtest Extended(heh, borrowing 1.x decks 4L) and smashed face with Tinker.  That was fun.

Keeper's still good.  Don't play Phids, and eat all your veggies.

[Mith]

Duress is somegood against so much of the field...I wish I could run six.

The second Disenchant in my board has to go...who's had good results boarding Gush? Speak now or forever hold your peace. Hmm...perhaps I'll board a 3rd Duress.

Oh, and what's this talk about Deep Anal? I can understand the tactics for boarding this in Hulk with its Intuitions...but in Keeper? Seriously?

Man...if I could tutor for Opalesence....and then serve with my Future Sight for five a turn, that'd be a serious beating