Paragon Keeper 2003 (Zherbus Remix)

[Radagast]

Quote it's not a maindeck card

Could you elaborate on this? I've never been unhappy to draw it in my experience with it (except, of course, in those situations where nothing short of a Balance or Will will do), and I've been running it MD for quite a while now.

[Azhrei]

It's not good to draw in an aggro environment like I have because you can't make maximum use of it very often.

[cooberp]

Might there not be a slot to run both?  Maybe cut the MD lifegain slot and board an instant speed lifegain to Wish for?

[cooberp]

Also, why is the second MD Plow so much better against Tog than a Chainer's Edict?  Just because it's tougher to Mis-D?

[MadWombat]

1. It's cheaper.
2. What if tog player has a dryad AND a tog?

[cooberp]

And that's worth losing the MD ability to kill untargetables?  It makes Morphling much more of a must-counter, and turns decks like D'Avanzoo with untargetables into serious threats.

[Cuandoman]

Future sight is much better in an environment where Misdirections are rampant. I may try it just to see how it feels.

I like the idea of sideboarding lifegain. Currently I have a Zuran Orb in the board. I know its not wishable, but with the 0 Sligh decks I see I have it there just in case it's needed.

I also think that Dustbowl is a solid card against Tog. Most builds use only 1 or 2 islands. I've found that Tog rarely doesn't sac the fetchers right away. Dustbowl can go rampant, forcing a Gush when they have mana available and creating mana problems in an already land light deck.

Scrying is a great card for the board, but even in an area without much burn, it seems that i would draw it when i was at like 6 life, and it would be useless.

While StP is an MVP in the Tog machup, I run Powder Keg main. (2 in fact but that has to do with the lack of other Moxen; thus no MD or SB Monkey) The Keg causes problems for the same reason it always has. Get in a counter war, drop it as an afterthought that deals with their next threat. As a bonus it deals with annoying artifacts and other random weenies too.

On the Misdirection issue, any card that can be Misdirected is a bad card in the Tog matchup. Thus, you see no MD Edicts, and people taking out the Braingeyser etc

[theorigamist]

I'm liking Skeletal Scrying less and less as Tog (either version) can put you down very low, very fast.  And even if they don't, using the Scrying just makes there alpha strike come quicker.

Mad Wombat, if they have Dryad and Tog and all you have is StoP, then you're still dealing with a creature attack next turn.  And you know that GAT has enough cheap cantrips to pump either Tog or Dryad from nothing to huge/huge in that one extra turn.  In the situation you describe, I think Balance is the way to go.  But I don't think the StoP vs. Edict makes as much of a difference as people say it does.  And I'd much rather be prepared for untargetability.  I agree with cooberp on the 1 StoP, 1 Edict.

Quote Future Sight feels a lot more like LoA than Geyser. Perhaps people are comparing it to the wrong card?

Would you ever feel comfortable taking LoA out of Keeper?  Also, LoA isn't Misdirectable, whereas Geyser is.  So even if we're comparing the wrong cards, it still makes more sense to take out the Geyser for the Future Sight.

Zherbus, I didn't carefully read through the two pages of this thread, so this may have been mentioned and if so, I'm sorry.  How effective is Fire/Ice nowadays?  Couldn't this slot be used more effectively for something else?  I like Powder Keg for this slot.  It seems like it would have a better sweeping effect.  Also, before somebody uses it, the argument that Ice cantrips is really a bad one.  If you wanted it just in case and cause it cantrips, you might as well play Brainstorm #3, unless you find that you very often burn the opponent to death for 2.

[Cuandoman]

@theorigamist:

Your missing the point. What he meant was that Future Sight feels more like Library in the way it "draws" cards, not that Library should be taken out.

[MadWombat]

If you're still looking for the morphling kill, why not run a diabolic edict in the board instead of the chainer's, so that you can wish for it?

[Zherbus]

Quote And that's worth losing the MD ability to kill untargetables?  It makes Morphling much more of a must-counter, and turns decks like D'Avanzoo with untargetables into serious threats.

Dan, that makes sense but...Who plays D'AvanZoo in the real world?

...that's right. Not nearly as many people as play Gro-a-Tog, TnT, or something.

Quote I also think that Dustbowl is a solid card against Tog. Most builds use only 1 or 2 islands. I've found that Tog rarely doesn't sac the fetchers right away. Dustbowl can go rampant, forcing a Gush when they have mana available and creating mana problems in an already land light deck.

Thats what I was going on as well; Dustbowls potential cominance of the mid-game. I changed to Wasteland because Gro-a-Tog often puts too much pressure on for Dustbowl to get working properly and because I would really hate to get stuck with a Dustbowl in the early game when they get a LoA.

Quote Zherbus, I didn't carefully read through the two pages of this thread, so this may have been mentioned and if so, I'm sorry.  How effective is Fire/Ice nowadays?

Yeah, its on the first page. Keg is a good replacement, but Fire has just been too damn flexible to get rid of for me.

Quote If you're still looking for the morphling kill, why not run a diabolic edict in the board instead of the chainer's, so that you can wish for it?

Look at the very first post in this thread. Skim down to the sideboard and look there.

[Freddie]

In Paragon builds, and if Fire/Ice is cut for a Keg, or 2nd Plow (leaving in the MD Edict) is merchant Scroll still worth running.

When testing different builds of keeper, I found that being able to scroll for removal/ DD was the deciding factor to include the merchant scroll.

It sounds like Zherbus is going to be playing against alot of Tog, and I think that Keg is better then F/i in that matchup.

Would it make sence (for Zherbus's metagame) to play 2 plow, 1 chainer's, 1 Keg? (having lost 1 F/i and 1 Merchant Scroll?)

-Freddie

[PsychoCid]

Merchant Scroll was an incredible card to run before Fire/Ice broke out and should still be afterwards.  I just -don't- understand why people suddenly think the card is no longer worth a slot because one of the weaker of its abilities has been cut off.

As far as I'm concerned, any time I can fetch Ancestral(/FoF)/a counter, Merchant Scroll is a wonderful card.  The remaining use, being able to pitch it, goes without saying.

PS-I think I did a rather decent job of not using the word 'moron,' here.

[riffraffxl]

Maybe I'm approaching it the wrong way, but when I see five mana I usually compare it with casting Morphling. Obviously the two cards do radically different things, but in the situations in which you can cast Future Sight, would you have rather cast a Morphling instead?

-------------------

Of course, you need mana free to protect a Morphling, and against certains decks you can often slap down a Future Sight without worrying about it being destroyed. Just wondering.

[theorigamist]

riffraffxl, think about the card it's replacing (Braingeyser).  Do you ever cast Geyser for 4 or less?  I can't think of a single time I have, ever.  So why not use the same argument against Braingeyser, or Stroke of Genius, etc.?  I don't think having the same CC as Superman goes against Future Sight at all.

[PsychoCid]

The answer to the question comparing paying 5 mana to drop a Morphling and paying 5 mana to drop Future Sight is far from static.

I don't think there's any way to convince me with ease that Future Sight is worth running in a Morphling slot, as the deck does need 2 of those, and no more.

Future Sight can pull you out of a sticky situation, possibly, by finding multiple answers to a plethora of threats, whereas Morphling may not be able to deal with all of them (ex. can only block one creature, threat may not be a creature, or you won't have the mana to block and perfom other necessary functions).

If problems were solved easily enough by dropping a Morphling, we might as well go back to playing some form of BBS.

[theorigamist]

I don't think he meant to run Future Sight in a Morphling slot.  I think he just meant that you don't want to decide on turn 5 which bomb you want to cast.

[chaosdjinn]

I played Future Sight in my keeper at the last Gamemaster Type 1 and it has served me well. Twice in that tournament the situation arose that it was time to use FS to selectively 'mill' through my library to find the key cards that were needed for the present state of the game.  

I equate the playing of FS in the mid-to-late game to the early dropping of the LOA.  It speeds you through the 'needing to get greater card quality/advantage stage' to the plateau of your win condition.

In the late game, I played it off a will(balanced it out of my own hand early game) one game and although I lost the match to a BBS variant(who draws 7 land in a row in game 3?!?!?!?), that FS GAVE me game 2 by providing more threats to pressure my opponent until he was out (of counters).

While playing it has the inherent disadvantage of exposing more information to your opponent, it does allow fun tricks to really screw with your opponent's noodle through library manipulation via mystical tutor, brainstorm and just plain old late game sacking of fetch lands to give you yet another peek into your library for answers. BTW, It also leads to a -1/+1=0 situation on the card disadvantage scenario people complain about from mystical and vampiric tutors.

Just like my Keeper always has had a LOA, I am sold on a lone FS that gives me that OOOOMMMPPPPFFFF!!! when needed.

@Zherbus:
Thanks for the update on Paragon Keeper 2003.
It looks real solid and I'll post my experiences with it after the next time(wed night) I run it through our gauntlet.
\Matt

[rozetta]

It's nice to see people are finally trying new things out, even if it does take the word of a more established player to start it.

I posted a thread back in January about FS here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;t=3783

but it didn't get too many replies, although some were quite interesting and enlightening. Of course, that was back before GAT had grown into what it is now (sorry, no pun intended). It's an interesting read for nostalgia's sake.

I'm currently working on a build of keeper slightly different to Zherb's and might start a new topic in regular vintage with the list if it ends up doing well (which it so far is).

By the way, I absolutely love the plaguebearer tech  Plus the artwork is not far off from yawgwill

[Zherbus]

In fairness, the reason I had previously written Future Sight off was because Misdirect effects weren't as en-vogue at the time rather than say Morphlings, Juggernauts, and Dreadnoughts.

[Freddie]

I can see the appeal behind it, but I have done very poorly with it.

i have seen it do really well, but EVERY time i saw it do so well, I thought, "That guy is really lucky" for not flipping land and counters forever (which was my expierence)

Question: What would you SB Future Sight out against?

would you leave it in vs the mirror, were REB could have a few turns to kill it, maybe before the advantage becomes insurmountible?

-Freddie

[Meridian]

Why is Future Sight better than Yawgmoth's Bargain?

[Zherbus]

1) Future Sight is Blue. It can be pitched to FoW and works better with the manabase.

2) Given its casting cost, either comes out generally in the late game. The life aspect of Bargain hits hard against:

- Gro-A-Tog (insane pressure at times, I often end most games below 8 life)
- Sligh (obvious reasons)
- Zoo (See Sligh)
- TnT (See Gro-A-Tog)

3) Future Sight works alot better with Cities and Fetchlands considering the life loss.

@Freddie: As it is right now, I don't think I would side it out against anything. If it were to be REB'd it costs us both a card and still likey yielded me a few. I may change my mind as I test more, but thats what I see it as now.

[Amosw99]

@siding out future sight

In the (limited) testing i've done I've been siding it out vs. ultra aggressive decks (sui, sligh, stompy) and I've also been siding it out vs. Mono blue and UR phid (don't want to tap out and get it drained or get blood mooned)  

I've been keeping it in vs. tog and gro, and i've been keeping it in vs. tnt, mask, combo, and the mirror. I really like it by the way, I often find it when I need it and it provides the midgame boost that pushes you over the top by turning every card you can cast into a cantrip.
Amos

[Milton]

Changes I would make for metagame tendencies and personal preference:

-2 Brainstorm (I think these have outlived their usefullness and that, due to a lack of discard decks, it would be better to have tutor effects in this slot).

+1 Vampiric Tutor (ability to get Library is becoming more and more important)
+1 Merchant Scroll (more speed)

-1 Zuran Orb
-1 Fire/Ice (should be a Plow in the modern environment)
-1 Gorilla Shaman (becoming less and less important)

+1 Swords (gro-atog, TnT, a great card all around).
+2 Kegs (kills artifacts, dudes, man-lands, everything!).

Also, in your board I would pull the Skeletal Scrying for a Gush as Wasteland protection and ability to fill your hand to activate Library if necessary.

Just some thoughts.

[Zherbus]

Hi Milton,

In general, there are things I just don't agree with. These may or may not be metagame/playstyle differences, but for the sake of useless debate I won't get into them. However you brought up some thoughts that actually HAD been swimming in my head.

1) 4th Swords - Dude, its funny you mentioned that because last night I ran it in the board to see how its going to work. I only got so far in my testing, but I think it might be a necessity. FYI, I cut Keg for it since Keg is too slow against my two common 'rough' matchups TnT and Gro-a-Tog.

2) +1 Vampiric - You and I both know that LoA is a big stick up the ass for Tog. I have been seriously debating bringing it back just for that reason.

3) +1 Gush - If I go balls out on the LoA thing I might go with this and possibly a Response if I think it'll work decently. This one wasn't considered since last I tested it in Keeper with Masticore, I didn't fall for it. Since you bring it up again, with LoA being important once more, it could be useful.

[PucktheCat]

Quote 2) +1 Vampiric - You and I both know that LoA is a big stick up the ass for Tog. I have been seriously debating bringing it back just for that reason.

It is also helped by the Braingeyser -> Future Sight swap.  This switch adds one potential bomb to the deck that mystical can't get, and if the Future Sight is in play it makes Vamp super-uber broken instant speed demonic tutor.  (and don't tell me if the future sight is in play you have already won.  You are in a good position, but only abusing cards that have synergy with the Sight makes it an win.  Vamp has huge synergy)

I haven't tested it yet, but I am thinking more and more that it might be time to try it.

Leo

[ShadowLotus]

Well, I've finally gotten around to replying to this thread after playing w/ my most recent Keeper build thus far against GAT and Hulk, and things are looking fine for Keeper.

One thing I'm certain about, without a doubt, is that Moat just doesn't do the trick anymore.  I wish it did, and if I could find space in my tight sideboard, then I'd reconsider adding it back in, but there's no way I would run it over more important spells like Red Elemental Blasts and Swords to Plowshares.  It's too slow when playing against GAT or Hulk, and hasn't really improved any of my other match-ups significantly enough to warrant its use (other than those I already do well against).

Regarding Future Sight, I've been running it off and on since it was released in tests, and I've loved it whenever I tried it.  I agree totally that Braingeyser is a lot weaker when playing against 4xMisdirections.dec (I tested it in the Braingeyser slot as well, since I can't think of anything else worth cutting to run it), and anything that improves my chances against those rough match-ups gets a second look in my book.  For me, it's too early to say whether it belongs permanently in Keeper, since I've been so used to milking 'Geyser for everything I could in so many matches, but perhaps its time has come.

I'll report my final decision after April 1st.

As well, no more MDed Edict.  It was nice using Chainer's Edict for its flashback ability, but decks like GAT and Hulk are too fast to get that established.  Also, if the Mirror was my main concern, then I'd prefer to improve my mirror-match playing skills, rather than drop cards that are imperative to use in my other important match-ups.  Another Swords was a no-brainer for me, since Cunning Wish still allows me access to Diabolic Edict if I really need it during Game 1.

Quote (Zherbus @ Mar. 11 2003,15:21)1) 4th Swords - Dude, its funny you mentioned that because last night I ran it in the board to see how its going to work. I only got so far in my testing, but I think it might be a necessity. FYI, I cut Keg for it since Keg is too slow against my two common 'rough' matchups TnT and Gro-a-Tog.

I've been running 4x Swords to Plowshares for the last month or so, and they've been great thus far (I cut my last Powder Keg in the sideboard to do this, but I still maindeck a lone copy in the Fire/Ice slot) in all the problem match-ups, like TnT, Mask, GAT, and Hulk.  Kegs are great, but running precise spot removal is much better after testing.  It's a must to run the full set of StPs, I believe, in this current environment.

Quote (Zherbus @ Mar. 11 2003,15:21)2) +1 Vampiric - You and I both know that LoA is a big stick up the ass for Tog. I have been seriously debating bringing it back just for that reason.

I gave it some thought, but I haven't had a chance to try it out, since I really don't want to see Vampiric Tutor back into my deck when I'm playing against good aggro.  What would we cut for it if this change was necessary (I doubt I would touch the 2x Brainstorms, since they've been good to me, but that's the only glaring spot that's flexible right now)?

Obviously, it'd be very broken w/ Future Sight, but FS would also have to resolve, so it isn't a sure-thing.  Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Quote (Zherbus @ Mar. 11 2003,15:21)3) +1 Gush - If I go balls out on the LoA thing I might go with this and possibly a Response if I think it'll work decently. This one wasn't considered since last I tested it in Keeper with Masticore, I didn't fall for it. Since you bring it up again, with LoA being important once more, it could be useful.

Gush is great in the sideboard.  After I dropped Masticore, I ended up just leaving Gush in, since it was performing well anyway.  It protects duals, it draws cards, and is blue - it's wonderful.  I ended up cutting Skeletal Scrying to make this change, since I wasn't happy losing life against Berserk-o-Tog or Groing-Dryad, due to the fact they put me on a fast clock, and can overwhelm any opponent in an instant.  As well, Gush is still a nice Wish target, so it's been fairly versatile in every game I've played so far.

Teferi's Response would be cool to run again, but I don't know where I'd fit it in.  As it stands, though, Gush is a great Keeper sideboard card in today's environment.  I definitely support players running it.

[rozetta]

+ 1 Vampiric

As good as it is with FS, I think I'd still be loathed to play another card-disadvantage tutor, since I only see FS in play maybe once every 5 or more games. It's almost a must when running the combo version of keeper, but otherwise I'd be inclined not to run it. It's also a little slow at fetching LoA, since you have to wait 2 turns to get than online, and if you already have LoA in play with a full hand, it probably doesn't fetch anything more useful than what can be fetched with mystical. Added to the fact that life points are at a premium right now, there's further reason to maybe pass on this one.


SB: +1 Gush

I still think Keeper is all about having more mana on the table at the right time. I admit I haven't tested this too much, but have to say that scrying does, generally, at least as much as Gush, without the loss in mana advantage/tempo. As mentioned, wasteland protection is only good early game to prevent tempo loss, and this doesn't really prevent that anyway. Plus it can't save LoA, which is probably the most important land in play. I know I'd rather have skeletal scrying over gush maindeck in game 2 versus a number of decks.

4 swords (2 in side, 2 in main)

Absolutely. Can't say any better things about this choice than what have already been mentioned.

SB: 4 REB

Again, golden.

- Fire/Ice

I'm so so about this one. I'm keeping it around right now because the threat diversity (having a burn spell so your opponent won't frivolously go to 1 or 2 life or play a turn 1 negator) keeps things in check. It's not great versus mask, tnt or groatog, but there are still plenty of people running sligh, sui, etc. anyway. Pitchable is a massive plus over keg, which is, as far as I can tell, generally too slow, and at times harmful (e.g. kills sol ring).

- Mox Monkey

I play in a relatively low-powered metagame and I still think the monkey is worth running for the most part. He eats a great deal of good artifacts and between him and strips, you could possibly keep gro-style decks at a minimum of mana. Not to mentioning at least chumping a dryad once.

Merchant Scroll
============
I'll go out on a limb here and mention my slight dislike for merchant scroll right now. It's a 2 mana sorcery which, in general, has grabbed ancestral. With all the misdirections flying around right now, you probably don't want to be pulling early game ancestrals without at least 2 counter backup anyway (I've been burned on this enough times). Okay, so it also fetches a counter or FoF/Stroke, but with the tempo of games being that much faster these days, I've been wondering if some reasonable business spell might be better off in that slot. Just an idea at this point, but I'm currently testing without one.

[Rico Suave]

IMO, I don't think cutting Edict for StP is the greatest move.  I'd rather cut Brainstorm and keep Edict while still having 2 StP.  Then you get a sheer number of removal spells instead of different quality spells.  

After all, what's so bad about Edict against Groatog?  Yea, it's Misdirectable, but so what?  That's still a 2:1 trade, which is always good when you're trying to fight the card-advantage game or force through a Misdirectable spell.  

Also, have you considered Timetwister instead of Future Sight?  It especially puts a hurting on a Groatog player after they Gush, since they end up with 7 cards and no land.  It can also reset the graveyard and buy a turn or two against a Tog on the board since they can't power it with the grave.