Fever Keeper

[Fever]

There has been a lot of discussion in recent weeks about what Keeper needs to do to stay competitive. Most players will agree that it needs a bit more spot removal and definetly more redundancy. The problem is, its hard to make a deck with so many powerful restricted cards more redundant, and space is already at the highest of premiums. I came up with the following decklist, which was helped by a few key suggestions from Zherbus. I am now satisfied enough with the deck, although some tweaking may occur.

//NAME: Keeper
        1 Zuran Orb
        1 Powder Keg
        2 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Balance
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Mind Twist
        1 Skeletal Scrying
        1 Fire/Ice
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Future Sight
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Merchant Scroll
        2 Cunning Wish
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        2 Morphling
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Wasteland
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 City of Brass
        4 Polluted Delta
        3 Volcanic Island
        3 Tundra
        3 Underground Sea
        2 Island
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Allay
SB:  1 Ebony Charm
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 The Abyss
SB:  2 Powder Keg

I have to say that Abyss is on the brink of being moved to the sb. In fact, thats where it was in my original build, but Zherbus convinced me to put it back in. In a truly perfect metagame, where only the top decks are being played, i think its probably not needed. However in real life, people tend to play a large variety of decks, so it stays in for now.

I have tried to keep the Misdirectable spells to a stricty minium, in large part due to the emergence of GAT and Tog. To be quite honest though, i feel that both Future Sight and Skeletal Scrying are better cards than Stroke and Geyser. Even in a metagame where Tog isnt prevelant i would stick with this configuration.

I am looking forward to discussing this deck with all of you.

EDIT: I have updated my decklist to reflect what i currently run.\n\n

[Zherbus]

If you compare maindecks to the one I have last listed in the Paragon Keeper 2003 thread, you will notice a 2 card difference.

4th Brainstorm vs. Fire/Ice - I feel I own a certain degree of loyalty to a card that has been Time Walk when I have needed it to be, a finisher, and a sweeper. Maybe my Fire/Ice loves me and I just have insane luck with it, but I can't let mine go quite yet. Its just been too flexible, but if I were to let it go, it would be for another Brainstorm. Especially since I run Vamp in the board now and can use it as another shuffle effect.

2nd Island Vs. 2nd City in a 27 manasource Keeper- I really would do this if I thought I could get away with that few colored sources. Maybe I can or maybe I am just pushing it.

Your sideboard is quite a bit different from mine. Honestly, I dont love Keg NEARLY as much as you do. I also feel COP: Red is needed in the Sligh matchup (especially if they are going to 8 Blasts and away from stuff like Scald?). Also, Plaguebearer has done more than earn its Keeper and make Keg not as important.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I just wanted to say that overall I like the direction that it is heading to. It really looks to be getting more to being reliably redundant which is what we've been talking about Keeper needing.

[Fever]

Thanks for the reply Steve.

Plaguebearer is a very good idea, i think i will have to consider him for the sb, probably in place of a Keg.

I probably have a skewed perspective when it comes to CoP: Red, because neither I nor my cousin(PennyLane) has ever lost a game with Sligh after it hit the table. And this was before Ankh Sligh came about, which has made it even less of a problem. Im not saying that Sligh loves the card, just that it has a very dimished effect from what it once was.

[Toad]

Well, first of all I'd like to say that your build look really solid.
Some comments :

* You run 27 mana sources and 4 Brainstorms (isn't this a bit too much ?). I've always felt that 28 mana sources was the right number in Keeper, and that's what I plya currently, with 2 Brainstorm too (same mana base as yours +1 Tundra). I face a lot of non basic land destruction like Wastelands, and still Mono Black decks running Siknhole. So I'd like to know If you ever suffered from severe mana problems, and If yes, in which situation ? Appart from that, considering you run 2 basic Islands, wouldn't City of Brass #2 be a good inclusion to stabilize your mana base (probably over a Volcanic Island).

* Powder Keg over Fire/Ice. Even with GAT becoming predominant, I still see a lot of Sligh decks in my meta, and I think Fire/Ice is a weapon of choice in this matchup. Against GAT, I've found Powder Keg to slow, and you can't kill both Dryad and `Tog. Of course, Fire/Ice won't do anything against GAT, but at least It cycles against control or when not needed. As long as there will be a hudge amount of Sligh players in my meta, I will never get rid of Fire/Ice. So could you explain with you prefer that maindeck ?

* Skeletal Scrying maindeck over Stroke of Genius. The main advantage of Skeletal Scrying is that It's not targeted, yeah. But have you ever been in trouble drawing it when facing burn based decks and already being in the red zone ? Of course, it can cycle for 1 there, but I fear you win't be able to abuse it as you could with Stroke of Genius in some matchups. At least, you should board Stroke of Genius I think. Seeing no Cop:Red in your sideboard makes me think that there isn't a lot of Sligh decks in your meta.

* Future Sight over Braingeyser. I've just started testing this in the Keeper I'm running now, and I found this really interesting. This can't be misdirected, and that's great. But I found that, will all the lands you play in Keeper, Future Sight turns out to be mostly a second Library of Alexandria, allowing you to play only one extra spell each a turn. Furthermore, you can't play this with an early Mana Drain due to the high colored casting cost. But maybe I'm still lacking more testing. So, what are your thoughts about this ? Do you only run this over Braingeyser because It's not targeted, or do you find other advantages ?

* Your sideboard is really original imho, I don't really like 3 Powder Kegs (that's 4 overall). I've always loved Pyroclasm, specially when facing Hypnotic Specters or Shades. Maybe you should try Vampiric Tutor here for getting LoA against `Tog and for another shuffling effect after Brainstorm.

Again, strong build.

[Zherbus]

Quote * Skeletal Scrying maindeck over Stroke of Genius. The main advantage of Skeletal Scrying is that It's not targeted, yeah. But have you ever been in trouble drawing it when facing burn based decks and already being in the red zone ? Of course, it can cycle for 1 there, but I fear you win't be able to abuse it as you could with Stroke of Genius in some matchups. At least, you should board Stroke of Genius I think. Seeing no Cop:Red in your sideboard makes me think that there isn't a lot of Sligh decks in your meta.

I made this decision last night and convinced Fever into trying it. It's something I want to try over Stroke because simply put: Stroke is really expensive and just isn't being the superstar I want it to be. While I think siding Stroke is an ok idea, I just don't think you'd want to side it in very much and wishing for it will be a rarity.

Quote * Future Sight over Braingeyser. I've just started testing this in the Keeper I'm running now, and I found this really interesting. This can't be misdirected, and that's great. But I found that, will all the lands you play in Keeper, Future Sight turns out to be mostly a second Library of Alexandria, allowing you to play only one extra spell each a turn. Furthermore, you can't play this with an early Mana Drain due to the high colored casting cost. But maybe I'm still lacking more testing. So, what are your thoughts about this ? Do you only run this over Braingeyser because It's not targeted, or do you find other advantages ?

It wins when it hits, and I really don't know where you got the Library comparison. Whenever mine hit, either I flip to something I can use (now or later) or a land which just gets played so I can flip over something else. Either way, I am playing more than one card a turn with this out.

It main advantage is that over the course of the game it has more of an effect than Geyser. Oh, and YES, the deciding factor is that with T1 being the bathhouse of aggro-control, Misdirections make much of Keepers card drawing a liability.

[PucktheCat]

I am currently running a similar maindeck:

-1 Zuran Orb +1 Renewed Faith
-1 Brainstorm +1 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Island +1 City of Brass

I just made the Stroke/Scrying swap, but I like it for now.

The real question I have for you is about the lack of draw spells in the sb for Cunning Wish.  I find myself Wishing for Scrying as much as any card in the board (I know some others here have had a different experience).  I was just wondering whether you missed the boarded draw spells and whether you would ever consider adding a Stroke, second Scrying or perhaps a Gush to the sideboard.

Leo

[Zherbus]

Quote The real question I have for you is about the lack of draw spells in the sb for Cunning Wish.  I find myself Wishing for Scrying as much as any card in the board (I know some others here have had a different experience).  I was just wondering whether you missed the boarded draw spells and whether you would ever consider adding a Stroke, second Scrying or perhaps a Gush to the sideboard.

If you look at the Paragon Keeper thread, you see that I have 2 Scryings

[Toad]

Quote (Zherbus @ Mar. 25 2003,07:12)It wins when it hits, and I really don't know where you got the Library comparison. Whenever mine hit, either I flip to something I can use (now or later) or a land which just gets played so I can flip over something else.

I've just playtested on Apprentice, so I may have had some problems inherants to the lack of efficiency of the shuffler, but I've almost never played more than one card with Future Sight on the board, which made be compare this to LoA. I will test this more IRL this week end, and my thoughts may change.
Future Sight is a real bomb, and if It hits, you've won, yes. But you have only one tutor in order to get it (Demonic Tutor), meaning that you can't get both Future Sight and LoA. Against GAT for example, you really want an early LoA, so Vampiric Tutor may be a must have in the sideboard when playing Future Sight.

In my own meta, with few Control or Aggro Control players and a lot of Sligh or burn based decks, I prefer Stroke of Genius to Skeletal Scrying, even if it's really expensive.

@Zherbus
What is exactly the main purpose of Plaguebearer in your sideboard ? Against what do you side this in ? I've just seen your new list in the Paragon thread, I'll give more thoughts afterwards.

[Fever]

@Toad
Thanks for the good replies. 27 mana may seem a bit low, but its perfectly fine when you run 4 Brainstorms. If it doesnt work for you and you find yourself wanting a little extra land then theres nothing that says you cant run 28. I just like having one more actual spell over that last land. As for the Keg, its not really over Fire/Ice but rather Gorilla Shaman. I think Zherbus answered your other questions quite well so i will leave it at that for now.

@Puck
Zuran Orb becomes infinetly better with the addition of Scrying, you might want to reconsider that change to your deck.

Also, i am considering another Scrying in the side to Wish for, but im still not sure what i would cut.

[Fever]

I hate to double-post, but i just wanted to mention a few things.

1) I am now sideboarding a copy of Stroke in case i need a card-drawer late. I know its more mana intensive than Scrying, but i figure its unlikely that i would be Wishing for and casting either in the same turn.

2) My eternal desire to ditch The Abyss from my maindeck has made me consider Fire/Ice in its place. I think this is a decent idea and something i will have to test, although i believe it will work out just fine.

3) My sideboard has changed a little, here is what it looks like currently:

SB:  1 Stroke of Genius
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Allay
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Ebony Charm
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  1 The Abyss

[Toad]

I know those decks are becoming 'rarities' with TNT and Gro-A-Tog dominating the field, but isn't the lack of The Abyss maindeck problematic against Suicide or Stompy ? I play in a mainly unpowered meta (only 2 players have access to power and play Keeper other than me) with a lot of Sligh/Stompy/Taiga/Suicide decks, and The Abyss has won me sooo many match that I'm really reluctant of cutting it of my maindeck. Have you playtested against those aggro decks ? If yes, what are your conclusions ?

(This may be off topic)
I'm currently running approximatively the same Keeper, with -1 Brainstorm +1 The Abyss (1 Fire/Ice too). As I face many aggro decks, I'm thinking of cutting 1 Brainstorm (going down to 2) for a second Fire/Ice (at worst it cycles). Do you think this is pertinent considering my meta ?

[Fever]

Obviously Toad, you have to play what works best for you. In my experience, The Abyss is only really good vs Suicide, Stompy always seemed a little to fast for it to matter. However, if you face a lot of those decks and you find that The Abyss is a key factor in your winning against them, then by all means run it. I just meant that i dont find it helps me against the decks i really want to beat like GAT, TNT and Mask. Its even marginal vs Ankh Sligh because that deck only runs 12 creatures, 4 of which are often Fanatics.

As for cutting a Brainstorm for another Fire/Ice, i dont think its necessary, but if you face that many 1/1 creatures, its worth considering. Always remember that your local environment affects your deck to a great degree. Nobody should be playing exact copies of another Keeper deck unless they play in the same meta, because the deck needs to be tuned for each individual.

[PucktheCat]

I have been testing your deck just as you posted it and I have some questions for you.

First, while I think I agree that Gorilla Shaman should be cut, at least in some metagames, I question whether the card to add is a Brainstorm.  The Shaman was one of a bare 10 or so cards that actually affect the board position.  If you cut it for a Brainstorm you are decreasing the threat density of the deck while adding a card that is dependent for its effectiveness on having a reasonable threat density.  I think four brainstorms is just to much for Keeper, at least the versions with only 8 or so shufflers.  Three BS is strong, I think, but four leaves you Brainstorming away Brainstorms to save mana cantriping them, which just sucks.

I am also not sure about the Stroke in the SB over a 2nd Scrying.  I am just going on my feeling here, as my testing hasn't really gotten this in depth, but I think the cost of Stroke is just to much after spending 3 to get it in the first place.  By way of argument let me just point out that you say you can't see yourself casting Wish and Scrying in the same, turn, but casting Stroke alone costs only ONE less than casting Wish and Scrying in the same turn.  Yes, there are other resources to consider, but I find that Cunning Wish leaves me the option of getting another card when my life total is threated.

Edit: I now see that you cut Fire/Ice for BS and Gorilla Shaman for Keg.  My argument still applies though, business spell=good.

Also, consider the fact that you are cutting The Abyss.  One of the reasons The Abyss was so good in Keeper was because it let it get away with skimping on cheap board control.  Your version cuts down on board influencing spells and eliminates the option to 'cheat' when you draw a hand full of tutors and other nonsense.

Leo

[theorigamist]

First of all,

Quote * Future Sight over Braingeyser. I've just started testing this in the Keeper I'm running now, and I found this really interesting. This can't be misdirected, and that's great. But I found that, will all the lands you play in Keeper, Future Sight turns out to be mostly a second Library of Alexandria

So is a second LoA bad?  There's a reason it's restricted.  Future Sight also doesn't require you to have exactly 7 cards, and it finds you colored mana sources, business spells, tutors, etc.  I often find my way into a shuffle effect if I get stuck on a second land with FS on the table.  But Zherbus is right, it pretty much just wins games.

@Puck: Actually, I only count 7 maindeck shufflers in this version, but I still think 4 Brainstorm is good, especially with 27 mana sources instead of 28.

@Fever: Which sideboard is your current one: the one at the top of the page or the one about halfway down?  If it's the one at the top, I wouldn't go so heavy on the Powder Kegs, and I'd add another Skeletal Scrying to the sideboard.  If it's the one farther down, I don't think you need a maindeck and sideboard The Abyss, and I would change the Stroke to a Scrying.

[CrazyCarl]

Well I just got home from a tourney where I learned some interesting things:

-- I missed Gorilla Shaman once, and this was in the mirror(!?) which never happens, so I call that a fluke.

-- Future Sight is ABSURD.  It won me sooo many games outright, and almost pulled me back in in another(in the mirror).

-- Chainer's Edict kinda sucks.  I want to leave it in, but it's probably better off as something else(Vamp?)

-- I want Vampiric Tutor in the MD like you wouldn't believe.

Here's my list:

Follow the Leader
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
2 Morphling
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Misdirection
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Future Sight
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Stroke of Genius(Slow yes, but I want another win condition)
1 Fact or Fiction

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 The Abyss
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

1 Fire/Ice

1 Zuran Orb

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 City of Brass
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra

SB
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Ebony Charm
1 Plaguebearer
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Shattering Pulse
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Circle of Protection: Black(Likely will be cut)
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Aura Fracture
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant(Yes, it's good and yes Allay blows)

Carl

[theorigamist]

Carl, anything in particular happen that made you hate Allay?

[Rico Suave]

Allay isn't as good when the decks it matters against have Claws of Gix.  Disenchant can hit an enchantment, then be Willed back for an artifact, at least.  Not to mention it's good to actually SB in, which is the purpose of a SB card.

I still like Stroke maindeck.  It's still an EOT card-drawer, and it's still blue for pitching sake.  That's not bad at all.

[theorigamist]

That brings up another question.  Let's say you Allay, and they Claws of Gix you in response to fizzle it.  If you play Yawgmoth's Will and play Allay, can you buyback it to your hand?

[Toad]

Yes you can. It's up to you to decide whether you want your Allay to go back into your hand or in your graveyard (and be removed). But i fear that a 5 mana disenchant is not really what you want to play out of a Yawgmoth's Will.

Additionnal comment on Fever's Build.
I've playtested it today IRL. Brainstorms really add consistency to the deck, but 4 seems a little bit to much for me. I sometimes found myself cantripping instead of playing usefull eot spells, or shuffling back other Brainstorms. I think 3 is the way to go. Even with 7 shuffling effects.

[CrazyCarl]

A few times today I was stuck with Brainstorm and no shuffling effect.  It was annoying.  I want to add Vamp, but i'd be cutting Merchant Scroll, so that really doesn't help ;\

[Fever]

@theorigamist
My current sb is the one listed half way through the thread, although im still tuning it and it may change.


As for the number of Brainstorms, i will repeat what i said in Zherbus' Keeper thread, although you dont really want to draw multiples you do want to draw one. Of course, going down to 3 Brainstorms is fine, and probably wont hurt consistency too much. If i were to cut one, it would probably be for another Wish or a Vamp. I used to swear by Vamp, and i still think its a great card, i just dont feel the need for it with 4 Brainstorms in the deck.

[Mith]

So has plaguebearer proved it's worth in the board? I haven't had the time to give that card a test run...but it seems like everyone has only positive things to say about it.

[Zherbus]

Quote A few times today I was stuck with Brainstorm and no shuffling effect.  It was annoying.  I want to add Vamp, but i'd be cutting Merchant Scroll, so that really doesn't help ;\

Carl, like I've been telling ya. VAMP IN THE BOARD!

Quote So has plaguebearer proved it's worth in the board? I haven't had the time to give that card a test run...but it seems like everyone has only positive things to say about it.

Pretty much a bomb against Fish, old gro, and Mask, but pretty borderline/mediocre against other things.

[jpmeyer]

Plaguebearer is really strong against Sligh because they need to cut burn to fit in Blasts.

[Mith]

Vamp in the board? How is running a tutor in the SB worth the already scarce space? Plaguebearer vs. Sligh is an interesting approach...never thought of bring that card in from the board.

[Ric_Flair]

Please don't think I am a retard, but I have seen an individual that used Spinal Villian in his SB as a way to combat GAT.  This card or Plaugebearer might be a worthy card to test.

[Dre]

I like this build of Keeper.  I do have a couple different card choices.  They are:

Different to your base:
+1 Future Sight
+1 The Abyss
+1 Vampric Tutor
-1 Powder Keg
-1 Skeletal Scrying
-1 Wasteland

Different to your side:
+1 COP Red
+1 Sacred Ground
-1 The Abyss
-1 Swords to Plowshares

Future Sight:
As it has been mentioned above, when Future Sight hits the table, it can be hard to lose.  I have just made the change to 2 in the base.  The card it replaced was Skeletal Scrying.  So far I like the change.

The Abyss:
I definately agree with people who have moved this card to the sideboard, but I think that this choice has to be made according to what the expected decks will be.  In Melbourne Australia there are many players who like to play Suicide, as well as other aggro decks.  I'm keeping it in.

Vampric Tutor:
I really like the way this card works with Future Sight.  That aside, I still like the 'silver bullet' style that Keeper can be, especially after sideboard.  In the past, with some of the earlier versions of Keeper, I didn't like this card.  With the introduction of Brainstorm and now Future Sight, my opinion has changed.  I guess that it has been working for me now, so I'll keep using it.

Sacred Ground:
This is my I hate Stax card.  It is a silver bullet.  I don't think I need to go any further with this.

Now I know that the main critercism that other forum members will have with my build is the 26 mana sources I use.  Ok, fair enough, but it just works for me.  Maybe I am a good top decker in this case.  As I said earlier, I play in an environment where I see alot of 4 Wasteland, 1 Stripmine, 4 Sinkhole decks.  I can't explain why this works for me, it just does.

Anyway...  As I said at the beginning of this post, I like your build of Keeper.  If nothing else, at least try 2 Future Sight.  The card is wrong in its' goodness.

[Diablos8]

It's a little on the OLD side....don't ya think?

[Fever]

Considering that Zherbus's Keeper deck is now only one card off from my own, this thread is pointless.