GroAtog – Well, it’s April 1st, Where are we Now

[Fever]

I guess i have just gotten used to playing Opt over Sleight, especially in Gro variants. I always liked the ability to pump my Dryad at instant speed, or to search for a FoW/MisD in response to something. If i could find room for Counterspell, then Opt becomes even better, letting me leave UU open during my opponent's turn.

I still think Tog is the best secondary creature out there, although i have considered a few others, including some very unusual choices. Here is a list of creatures i would consider in the Tog spot:

Werebear
Tempting Wurm
Forgotten Ancient
Shadowmage Infiltrator

the idea of Tempting Wurm seems very good to me, especially with all the Trix, Mask, Stax and TNT decks running around.
 


Also, the third Scroll is always a possibility, but i think there are other cards i would fit in first.

[David Hernandez]

i really like the counterspells in the deck.  i also prefer Opt over Sleight because it's an instant.  Zhalfirin convinced me (when he beat me at National's...) that 3 Duress, 1 Cunning Wish, and 2 Opt were enough to still allow this deck to work.

I think i agree with Steve's suggestion regarding cutting a Tog. I would add another Opt, and I'm going to try that in my build.  That would give me 7 cantrips.  

I agree with Steve that you should make room for Counterspells.  I believe the deck works better with them.  Your build looks tight, so you would be cutting some important stuff in order to fit them in (the 4th duress and the 4th Misdirection (or 3rd Tog), and probably the 2nd Cunning Wish).

Your inclusion of FoF in the side is interesting.  With Cunning Wish it becomes a 7 caster, so i'm curious about why you are not running it in the main vs. the 2nd Wish.

Also, i'm finding that Frantic Search works well because of the Untap 3 Lands ability--it's a lot like Gush with Fastbond.

--Dave.

[Zhalfirin]

@ David Hernandez: I think 3 Duress is the right number in this deck.  You want one eventually, but multiples in the opening hand can stagnate your board development.  Also, 1 Cunning Wish and 2 Opt worked with 4 Gush in the deck.  With only 1 Gush, I think 4 Opt are required.

Regarding Sleight/Opt: I think Opt is definitely the better choice.  You do not want to play with a card that forces you to tap out unnecessarily.  Moreover, if you're trying to get to 2 mana and you have a dual and fetch in hand, you do not want to be forced to play your dual which can be immediately wasted (which Sleight can force you to do).

@ Fever: I like your list with the following changes:
-1 Misdirection
-1 Duress
-1 Regrowth
+3 Counterspell

My side would be (for a wide open metagame):
3 Naturalize
1 Ebony Charm
1 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Duress
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Strip Mine
1 Submerge
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Energy Flux

[David Hernandez]

@Zhalfirin: hmm. Ok, that's basically everyone saying that 4 Opt/Sleight are required.  I'll change my build by pulling a Tog and the Frantic Search from the main and put 4 Opt in.

I still don't see why Fastbond goes out.  Yes, i understand how it worked with Gush, but the fact remains that the card works as a tremendous accelerator.  In post-Gush GAT it still seems to work great, especially with our low land count.

I also don't understand the FoF in the sideboard.  Help me understand the reasoning behind this if Fastbond will not be in the deck. We'll do what? Cunning Wish for FoF?  Why not just FoF?  For now, i'm moving the Frantic Search to the SB and leaving the FoF in the main. In testing, the FoF has been extremely strong.

I'll be happy to reconsider, i just want to hear 'why'.

Also, in order to get more cards on the graveyard for the Tog's, has anyone tested Zuran Orb?

Thanks!
Dave.

[Fever]

@Zhalfirin
I will consider the changes you suggested, although i hate cutting Regrowth.


@David
The reason that we have FoF in the side is because 4 mana is very high for this deck. However, if we reach the late game and find ourself with 5-6 mana on the board, we can Wish for FoF eot and then either cast FoF main or wait until the next eot if we want. You will rarely cast both in the same end of turn, but it will happen sometimes, during games which last much longer than you would like.

[David Hernandez]

@Fever: Thanks for answering FoF.  However, i think you will find that with the Counterspells in the main you will slow the opponent down and ultimately you will have the mana to cast the FoF from the main.  I understood that you would probably cast the Cunning Wish at the opponent's eot.  Yes, that means GAT is a little slower (by about one land drop), but that's to be expected with the loss of Gush.  This is part of the reason why i still like the Fastbond.  An extra land drop, even once, is like a Timewalk, and with GAT that could be the game winner.

As for dropping Regrowth, i think i would rather drop a Tog, as Smmenen suggested.  There's too much power going to the graveyard for me to ignore, and i'd love to get some of it back.

The counterspells are, imo, necessary and should be absolutely part of any GAT build.  I stress that i'm offering my opinion...but i do stand by it.

I think we're still going to see GAT in the top 4 consistently, if players wont write it off as a loss because of Gush.

--Dave.

[Zhalfirin]

Quote As for dropping Regrowth, i think i would rather drop a Tog, as Smmenen suggested.  There's too much power going to the graveyard for me to ignore, and i'd love to get some of it back.

With only 7 creatures in the deck, I can find it hard to find and play a critter quickly in matchups where you are forced to go aggro (sligh, TnT).  Dropping to 2 Togs could spell disaster in those matchups.  Moreover, before you dismiss dropping regrowth, consider how often it has been really useful ... then think about when it has been necessary.  I often have found regrowth to be cool (e.g. on ancestral), but hardly a game-breaker.  Moreover, I have found many times when I did not want to tap out to regrow a spell (thus, it was just a dead card).  I know I'm not alone on the cutting of regrowth: Saucemaster (aka GAT master) and I believe Fishhead (aka win every tournament he attends) have expressed discontent with regrowth.

The one point that would make me want to keep regrowth is without it, you only have one card to access your graveyard (yawgmoth's will) and if an early duress hits will, you will lose all contact with your graveyard.

[Saucemaster]

Quote I know I'm not alone on the cutting of regrowth: Saucemaster (aka GAT master) and I believe Fishhead (aka win every tournament he attends) have expressed discontent with regrowth.

[Beats] ...Back once again with the Gro-a-tog MASTER [/Beats]

Heh.  Seriously though, yes, I found Regrowth to be a hand-clogger and very little else in 4-Gush GAT.  The question, I think, is this: obviously 1-Gush GAT is going to be slower than 4-Gush GAT.  With the slower, slightly more long-term gameplan, and the (I think) necessary increase in the manabase (since you can no longer count on Gush to help you cheat to get to 3 mana), it may be that Regrowth becomes better.  It sounds like a testing issue to me.  If I become convinced that this deck can be better than Hulk, then I'll probably start testing with Regrowth in, and cut it if I find that my experience with it matches my experience with it in 4-Gush GAT.

Quote I still don't see why Fastbond goes out.  Yes, i understand how it worked with Gush, but the fact remains that the card works as a tremendous accelerator.  In post-Gush GAT it still seems to work great, especially with our low land count.

Fastbond goes for the same reason that it's never included in any deck that can't abuse it as a part of some combo: it's strict card disadvantage.  And the "low land count" is actually a strike AGAINST Fastbond; if the only thing you're using it for is to drop a land one turn faster, and you've only got one or two land in your hand max, the only effect Fastbond has on the game is to increase your mana development by one turn.  At the cost of a mana, and a card, that's just not good enough.  If I can only Gush once or twice at maximum, Fastbond no longer generates enough mana to counteract this drawback, and you have no "combo mode".  

Quote An extra land drop, even once, is like a Timewalk, and with GAT that could be the game winner.

The main difference is that Time Walk doesn't cost you a card, where Fastbond does, effectively making Fastbond a mulligan with benefits.  That could be a game-loser.  Plus it just sucks to topdeck Fastbond mid-game, when you already have all the land from your hand on the table.  Think of it this way: you've only got one copy of Fastbond (obviously).  When would you ever Tutor for it?  Basically never, unless you have YawgWill.  Even then, you arguably have better targets.

@ all: On Sleight/Opt.  I prefer Opt, especially when playing Counterspells/Drains.  However, there are good arguments for both.  This is all about playstyle, I think.  I hate tapping out unless I'm dropping a threat or Berserking you to death.  And I'll add my voice to the throng saying that you have to go up to all 4 of them, whichever you play.

[David Hernandez]

@Zhalfirin: you know this deck better than i do, so i'll test it without the Regrowth, BUT, Hulk only runs 4 creatures and it's a killer.  With all the draw that GAT offers, i think that 2 may be enough.  Have you tried it?

if you want to spend 1-mana at instant speed, we could try Reclaim...  ...Gush...Reclaim...Gush...Re claim...after all, it's not restricted...

Anyhow, i'll test the list below, and then try it without the Regrowth as well.

EDIT: @Saucemaster: (i didn't see your post until after i had replied to Zhalfirin): Great points about Fastbond.  All the info generated today tells me that we generally agree on a build that runs with the following:

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Misdirection

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt/Sleight
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Cunning Wish
(25)

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Duress
(6)

1 Regrowth
1 Berserk
4 Quirion Dryad
(6)

3 Psychatog
(3)

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
(20)
(Total: 60)

...with FoF in the SB, and the rest of the SB flavored to your local metagame.

This looks very strong. I'm going to test it out.

Dave.

[Zhalfirin]

I will admit that I haven't tried 1-Gush GAT without Regrowth.  I haven't even played GAT since Nationals!   My comments definitely came from the 4-Gush era.  

That said, Regrowth is definitely worth trying.  I echo Saucemaster's comments about Regrowth in the long game.  My suggestions about fever's list still stand, but instead of taking out regrowth, I would take out one wish (I failed to see that he was running 2).

Edit: I didn't see David Hernandez's decklist edit until I posted.

@David H: Let me know how your testing goes.  I personally think that 20 mana sources are needed, but your testing may show otherwise.  In particular, let me know how the deck fares against decks that run 4 Wastes and 1 Strip (Sui, Void, Sligh).

[David Hernandez]

Zhalfirin,

i originally had only 1 Cunning Wish, which i prefer.  i upped it to 2 after comments about Fever's list.  He has 20 sources in his build.

I will cut the 2nd Cunning Wish out of my build and add another mana source because i like Fever's mana base more than what i had posted (even though we only differed by one Flooded Strand, i think that the extra mana source he chose is right on the money).  I'm going to edit my previous post to reflect the change in order to avoid posting a bunch of decklists.

If anyone else can comment on dropping the 2nd Cunning Wish in favor of a mana source, please do.

Dave.

[Fever]

I just wanted to point out that, when you have a Tog on the table, Cunning Wish effectively becomes an instant speed regrowth for instants.

Im sure most of you realize this, just thought i would remind everyone. After all, casting Ancestral twice in one turn can do wonders for a Tog.


I still think Regrowth is worth it, which makes it doubly hard for me to cut anything for the third Counterspell. I really want to keep the Tog count at 3, so i am left with very few options. I love running two Wishes now that Gush is restricted, perhaps i could cut one Opt?

[David Hernandez]

@Fever:  i think everyone will say that the 4th Opt is required. They've convinced me of it. Even you slapped me in the head earlier for running less than 8 cantrips. LOL.

I still like the Regrowth too, and I'll keep it until testing proves otherwise, but that makes the deck really tight.  There isn't anything to cut for the 3rd Counterspell if you keep both the Regrowth and the 2nd Cunning Wish.

You could try running it with 2 Counterspells and test that out.  Cunning Wish can be fantastic, and i understand why you want to run 2 of them.  

Still, the majority of GAT builds from before the restriction of Gush tended to run 3 Counterspells and 1 Wish, and that may be important for the proper operation of the deck.  Also, with the loss of the 4th Misdirection you will have less opportunity to respond to the opponent, and the 3rd Counterspell may be more important than the second Wish.

I think that the 3rd Counterspell will be more important for the build than the Wish.

--Dave.

[Fever]

Yes Dave, i know i screamed at you fro running less than 8 cantrips, but this should illustrate just how hard of a decision i am facing. I really dont want to cut ANY card for that 3rd Counterspell, yet somehow i can live with the following:

3 Duress
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection

I just HAVE to find room for the 3rd counter, but i swear, neither the Regrowth or the second Wish is going without a fight.

[David Hernandez]

You could drop a flooded strand, and run with 19 sources, using the mana base that i posted originally.  That would give you the slot.

i'll test this too, because i like your reasoning behind the 2nd Cunning Wish.  This is the hard part--getting down to the last optimal card.  Zhalfirin was concerned that 19 mana sources post-Gush would be a problem.  

Without actually testing it, i think it can go either way.  It would be great if the mana runs stable at 19, because then i will hop on the wagon and run the second Wish.

Outside of the Strand, i think the Wish is the only other card that can be cut if you want to run the 3rd Counter and you don't want to cut the Regrowth.

--Dave.

[erik]

I never played more than one Wish pre-July, but much like the Opt/Slight choise it is a matter of playstyle IMO. I usually tap out a lot in the early game to get a large Dryad, relying on the pitch counters to keep her alive long enough to do the job. Thus I always thought of the Wish as a tempo-loss and sort of a necessary evil, should the initial plan fail. Now I guess we have to become more control-ish, and the 2nd Wish pretty much has to be in there I suppose.

I also understand where you are comming from regarding FoF Dave, it's one of those spells you always want to play but just can't due to the high cost. Pre-July it was in my board for the control matchups only, but with a second Wish it will probably see more action. Still wouldn't play it MD though.

On finding room for the 3rd counterspell, my top contenders are Regrowth and the 20th mana source. I don't like Regrowth because it is awful in the early game (which is even more important now with all the combo decks) and it's green. Sure it sucks to lose graveyard interaction, but then again Tog takes care of that pretty well You can usually Wish for the good stuff anyway, as Fever pointed out.

If you are hell-bent on keeping Regrowth though, I think we have to put the lone Island under the magnifying glass again. How often does this save your ass in practice and not just in theory? The Island + Wish for BeB/Nat. against Blood Moon is a pipe dream, really. The only time I really love the Island is in mana-light hands where you just can't afford to have your first land wasted. What are your experiences?

[David Hernandez]

Erik,

you have a good point regarding the lone Island.  If a mana source is dropped for the 3rd Counterspell, it could be the Island.  

I like running the Island only because i feel uncomfortable running only special and dual lands.  I want insurance against a Blood Moon or some other randomness.  That may not be 'scientific', and except for a random/occassional/rare instance when a Blood Moon was on the table and I drew Island for BEB, i can't give a good reason.

However, i know that there is a psychology to playing this game, and i play with my mind at ease knowing that i have a basic Island in the deck.  Maybe that's odd, but it helps me.

In the Pre-July format, i liked running 5 fetch lands.  Running 6 now may be the better way to go because of the changes to the deck.  I think at this point i need to go test this list, because without real data i'm just going to waste your time with theory.

That being said: i like the Regrowth, i agree with Zhalfirin that 20 mana sources is probably the right number, i think 3 Counterspells and 4 Opt/Sleight are mandatory, i've been convinced that FoF should be in the sideboard, and i think a single Cunning Wish makes sense.

--Dave.

[Fever]

@Erik
Basic Island tech does work, thats why everyone and their mother uses it. I have had it done to me several times playing RG TNT, so i can attest to its usefulness. Also, the lone Island is just as important versus Wastelands, its a big help having one solid source of blue on the table that you know cant be stripped away.

@David
Dude, theres nothing wrong with theory, although testing is always nice. The third counter will find its way into the deck, but im much more likely to replace Regrowth than the second Wish. Running only one Wish, even with ways to search for it, just isnt enough for me.

[walking dude]

I know if you run two wishes the basic island wish for beb works. The island lets you slight and storm to find the wish as well. Its saved my 4$$ a few times and is no pipe dream.

[Zhalfirin]

I wanted to echo what other people have said: The basic island is very important.  Not only does it allow you to deal under a blood moon (i.e. wish for beb), but knowing that it won't get wasted is huge.  It also has the minor benefit of being less painful for Price of Progress.

[erik]

Thanks, that's kinda what I was looking for. I've mainly thought of the Island as an anti-Blood moon measure, but I guess the immunity to Wastelands is just as important. How often do you guys first-fetch the Island in general?

The original question remains though, what (if anything) should be cut for the 3rd Counterspell? My vote is on Regrowth, but if you think 19 mana is doable a case could be made to cut the 6th fetch. Thoughts?

[Siral]

In the last tourney played here in italy i took 3rd place losing only vs tendril deck with a GAT deck in a 79 people tournament (5 win 2 ID in swiss round, wins vs Trix, Rector Trix, Pandeburst, Suicide Black and Reanimator and win 1st game of the top8 vs Keeper, all the wins 2-0)

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
4 Duress

4 Quirion Dryad
2 Psychatog

1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
1 Gush
1 Future Sight
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Fastbond
1 Pernicious Deed

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Mox
1 Black Lotus
2 Island
1 Loa

Sideboard

1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Ebony Charm
1 Stifle
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Berserk
1 Naturalize
1 Crumble
1 Energy Flux
1 Powder Keg
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Zuran Orb
1 Gilded Drake
1 Waterfrount Bouncer


I think that in the actual metagame 4 duress are a must. Have the possibility to see at the 1st turn the opponent's hand and knowing what threats he could cast it's very important.

I lost vs Tendril only because he got 2 god's hand (land swarm ancestral brainstorm necropotence enlightened tutor burning wish in the 2nd game on my first turn duress)

I think to add white to this build because here in italy a lot of deck starting to play pyrostatic sligh and sphere of law could do the difference between life and death vs this kind of deck...

White give also sacred ground vs stax and sword over the smother as creature removal....aura fracture vs blood moon....

Try a little this build of GAT deck and give me your opinions

I think that 2nd island could be fifth fetchland but maybe need more testing about it's mana base

[David Hernandez]

siral:

this is an interesting build.  Fastbond/Future Sight is a broken combo, but usually you need to have a Zuran Orb in order to take full advantage.  The combo also works well with Gush, so i understand why you played gush in the main deck.  

Did you regret not playing the Zuran Orb, or did it not matter?

Pernicious Deed works well in this deck, although i know smmenen brought up a good point that Deed's will kill your own creatures due to their low casting costs.  Still, i think it has it's place, and I also like it in Hulk.  

19 mana sources is very light.  Did you mulligan often?

--Dave.\n\n

[Grand Inquisitor]

After playing this in two small tournaments lately, I wanted to offer my latest take on a deck that I thought would never survive the restriction of its draw engine.

GroAtog, Concord Tourney 9-13-03

Mana base: (21)
3 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
5 Fetchlands
1 LoA
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus

Creature Base: (7)
3 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dyrad

Broken Stuff: (3)
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Wil
1 Fastbond

Draw: (10)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge

Tutors: (7)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish

Counter Base: (12)
4 Force of Wills
2 Misdirections
3 Mana Drain
2 Daze
1 Divert

SB:
1 Naturalize
1 Blue elemental blast
2 Coffin Purge
1 Ebony Charm
1 Berserk
2 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
3 Pernicious Deed


About card choices...
The biggest change in this build over others I've seen posted lately, is using AK in place of both more expensive drawers (FoF, Future Sight, Scrying) and search spells (Sleight of Hand, Opt).  This creates space in the deck for more counters and more tutors.  It also strengthens GAT's mid-late game, which were quite weak with only a single Gush.

Tutors...
Since AK is supplementing the other draw spells I've increased the merchant scroll count to two.  In the first tournament I didn't like drawing berserk when I saw it, so I've moved to just one in the sb, and added a cunning wish.

Counters...
Everyone hates daze, its a bad card, sure.  My experience is just the opposite, so in spite of everyone's advice, they remain.  I'm not being irrational.  I run them for the following reasons:
1) While duress could easily take this spot, I feel without four gush, the mana base is too susceptible to strips so that I need to drop an island turn 1, and then fetch for the appropriate source next.
2) Against combo, daze is great in the early game.
3) While it is not useful in the lategame, GAT does not play many (winning) late games.  Additionally, with 4 brainstorms and 7 pitch counters, I can get rid of it if I have to.
4) The psychological effect of knowing your opponent is playing daze cannot be denied.  It won't slow them down an entire turn, but it will effect their play choices.

With more suicide (at least in my area) misdirection effects are a valueable commodity.  Divert also helps win early counter wars, and stealing someone's ancestral recall is priceless.

The mana drains are now much more appropriate with more scrolls, wishes, and AK.  Everybody likes free mana.

Creatures...
With a lone Gush, the deck has much more difficulty pulling off a quick Tog->Zerk win.  This has caused me to reduce the number of Togs down to 3, and rely more on protecting a big dryad for the win.

Sideboard...
The three pernicious deeds are excellent against aggro, random decks and workshop based decks (your worst matchups).  Everything else is pretty standard, I'd like to fit in a stifle, probably for the second smother.  If I end up moving duress to the maindeck, things will change, but for now, I like where they are.  I also think blue elemental blast is great right now (REBs, Welders, Pillars, Gobbos, Bloodmoon), but I can only fit one.

Potential Changes...
I still need to do a lot more testing with the AK's, but my early experiences have been positive.  It becomes very tempting to want to run Intuition, but I feel its too mana intensive right now.  I may test it in place of merchant scroll #2, with the rational that its instant speed makes up for its increased cc.

I really want to fit in a strip mine, since this isn't as explosive as pre-restriction GAT, and it has no answer for Library of Alexandria (and now Bazaars).

If I do decide to run more mana, Future Sight does become attractive, I would really like some advice on this from people.

While this is not close to its earlier cousin in raw power, it is clearly a viable choice in the right metagame.  Most of all, it has a slightly positive matchup against Hulk from what I've seen so far.  This and its ability to battle combo make it a solid deck.  Obviously much of this may get turned upside down once Mirrodin is legal, but for now I'd like to hear some feedback.\n\n

[David Hernandez]

G.I.,

i notice you're not running any Intuitions.  Did you find that to be a problem?

i know you mentioned that you might run one in place of a Merchant Scroll, but i'm surprised that you didn't run at least on Intuition in the first place.  I'm really looking for some more detail on this.

is your metagame Hulk-heavy?

dave.

[Grand Inquisitor]

@david,

I only tested the version with AK over sleight of hand in two tournaments (9 matches total).  I made the move, since I really want to play instants, and opt is terrible.  I thought the 2 cc might be too difficult to overcome, but my limited experience has shown otherwise.

Regarding the lack of intuition, I felt that GAT cycles through its deck fast enough so I could find two easy enough, and then scroll for the third.  Since Intuition doesn't have many real targets beside AK (no Deep Analysis, or Tog/Cunning Wish), and I figured that it would be too clunky to go tutor > intuition > AK as a draw engine, I just left it out entirely.  I am certainly open to trying one in the maindeck.

One adjustment I wanted to make to the earlier post is that my decklist was actually incorrect.  It has now been changed to:
+1 island
-1 misdirection

I may test both the single intuition, and after that, a single future sight.  5cc sounds like a lot, but off lotus or mana drain, it would make this deck hum.  Any suggestions on what to cut for either of these cards?

[David Hernandez]

G.I.,

i think you can move both the Vamp Tutor and the Divert to the sideboard.  You could then play 2 Intuitions.

others have argued (pretty convincingly) that Fastbond no longer has a place in this deck, so you could remove that too and add a third Misdirection.

however, if you run a Future Sight, its my opinion that you should then change the engine a bit so that it includes Fastbond and a Zuran Orb (this would make it run like The Shining).

you might be better off replacing Mystical Tutor with a Fact or Fiction, or a Deep Analysis.

i am convinced that at least 3 Duress belong in the main deck.

Sirals list (a couple of posts ago) took 3rd place in a big tourney (7 rounds of swiss).  I think his build is the direction that i would go, except that i would add a 5th Fetch Land, Drop a Duress, and remove Regrowth in favor of Zuran Orb.

Since you dont like Opt, you could use some of your changes in their place, like running 4 A.K.

In fact, i might try that myself.

--Dave.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote i think you can move both the Vamp Tutor and the Divert to the sideboard.  You could then play 2 Intuitions

I may move the vampiric (although I don't think the deck is redundant enough), but the divert has been gold against ancestral, DA, all things Suicide, Sligh, and as a winner of early counterwars.

Quote others have argued (pretty convincingly) that Fastbond no longer has a place in this deck, so you could remove that too and add a third Misdirection

I disagree in that fastbond, even with only one gush, allows this deck to go combo with yawgmoth's will.  Since I probably will test future sight, its staying for now.

On another note, I would like to fit MisD #3, however, divert fills this slot well enough, and only costs me one card instead of two.  This is a big difference now that the draw engine is weaker in the early game (AK can be huge in the midgame)

Quote however, if you run a Future Sight, its my opinion that you should then change the engine a bit so that it includes Fastbond and a Zuran Orb (this would make it run like The Shining

I think you (and Siral) are onto something with Future Sight.  It looks clunky, but there is a decent amount of acceleration in here.  I may drop the 3rd and maybe even 2nd island for the off color moxen.  This would also alleviate some of the issues I have against wastelands.

Quote you might be better off replacing Mystical Tutor with a Fact or Fiction, or a Deep Analysis

I don't mean to be offensive, but this statement makes it look like you haven't played the deck at all.  Mystical is a vital tutor, is synergistic if I decide to run Future SIght, and is blue to boot.  FoF isn't even played in Shining (because of its cost with FS), and DA is only played as a wish target, or for the control matchup.  These are much too slow for a deck with 21 sources.

Quote i am convinced that at least 3 Duress belong in the main deck

You're probably right.  However, these would certainly take the place of daze and something else.  I like to be able to lay a creature and still have a free counter, that and daze is a pet card of mine.  They do come out a lot after boarding, but think of how this looks to the storm matchups games 2&3:

4x Force of Will
3x Mana Drain
2x Daze
3x Duress
4x Misdirect effect

Its a pretty good wall of disruption to overcome, and it all (except for the Mana Drains) happens turn 1.

I guess I would advise others to run duress, I'm staying with daze for now.

Quote Sirals list (a couple of posts ago) took 3rd place in a big tourney (7 rounds of swiss).  I think his build is the direction that i would go, except that i would add a 5th Fetch Land, Drop a Duress, and remove Regrowth in favor of Zuran Orb.

Since you dont like Opt, you could use some of your changes in their place, like running 4 A.K

I am going to try to take more from siral's list, particularly the Future Sight   .  I think Zuran Orb is overkill, but we'll see.  I definitely don't want this turning into the Shining.  The Shining has its own merits because it can run 4 Yawgmoth's Wills.  GAT can't.  Its niche will be lightning fast creature threats backed up by a wall of counters.  FS, fastbond, YWill remain a combo option for it if its original plan fails, or if it simply draws into it.

[David Hernandez]

i had a bad experience with Diverts.   (while playing them in my Stax deck).

hey, if you have pet cards, i dont have a problem with that.  In fact, thats why this game is so cool.  Putting your "signature" into your deck is half the fun.

i personally like Fastbond in the deck.  i also like Regrowth.  i am still testing vs. what others have said, and i think it can go either way.  I have a great deal of respect for the guys at C&Js (northern california: Zhalfirin, Saucemaster, Fishhead, Raziel, Webster, Unstablecornbread, etc), and they have argued against those cards in the main deck (post Gush restriction).  That doesnt make them "right", but it adds a lot of weight (for me) against those cards in the main, with the exception of playing Future Sight and Zuran Orb (then i think at least Fastbond and Zuran Orb are required).

I dont think the Zuran Orb is "overkill".  It tends to give you the extra edge to stay alive when the deck goes off with FS.  As for The Shining, i had no intention of making Tog look any more like it.  Only in regard to the Fastbond/Zuran/FS engine.  Its very comboish, but a Tog build similar to Sirals seem to be able to handle it.

i have played this deck a lot.  i like Mystical Tutor.  You asked for suggestions on cards to remove, and i didnt want to turn your list into something that was already posted.  So, to keep your originality intact, i suggested the Tutor as a possible card to swap out.  You were not offensive (but thanks for being polite).

As for Daze, i dont like them, but i think that is a personal preference.  Other players love them.  I just think that Duress is better, and i dont see many other cards that can be cut.

if the lone Divert is working well for you, then you dont need to put in a 3rd Misdirection (as you pointed out).

this deck is still broken, and there a several good ways to run it now.  I think this is a good thing because we wont see a bunch of clone-decks.  Variety keeps it interesting, and lets all of us play our personal pet cards.

i have PM'd Siral previously to discuss some of these changes (but no response yet), so now i dont mind discussing it here.

--Dave.\n\n

[Saucemaster]

Quote i personally like Fastbond in the deck.  i also like Regrowth.  i am still testing vs. what others have said, and i think it can go either way.  I have a great deal of respect for the guys at C&Js (northern california: Zhalfirin, Saucemaster, Fishhead, Raziel, etc), and they have argued against those cards in the main deck (post Gush restriction).  

For my part (and thanks for the kind words, DH), I haven't spent that much time testing post-Gush GAT.  My impressions from relatively limited testing: I disliked Regrowth in the original GAT, because it was just too slow and clogged your hand.  Now, though, you're forced to play a slightly slower game than before, and there are spells you really do want to Regrow.  Pre-July, it made little sense to Regrow your Ancestral and spend three mana drawing three cards when you could just Gush, draw two cards, and actually generate one extra mana this turn, which often led to yet more card advantage.  The deck no longer has that option.  I think contemporary GAT not only likes Regrowth, it actually needs it.

Fastbond, if you don't go the Future Sight route, seems the same in this deck as it is in Hulk: extraneous.  If you're running a card almost only because it makes your Will better, isn't that almost the definition of a win-more card?  With Future Sight, things start looking different.  I'm seriously wondering when you're going to get 5 mana to cast FS, but that's something that people who've tested the deck recently will have to discuss, I guess.

My $0.02.