Stacks Primer (Part 1 of 2)

[Black_plague]

Well once again im here to supply the noob question. Anyway I dont know what to do with smockstack. Could someone please explain how it should be played,cause I always play it and dont do anything with it. How many counters should I put on it,When do I put them on, and what should I sac with it. I hope someone could answer my rather simple but necessary question.

Thank you

[Magimaster]

Smokestack should be played as soon as possible...but I would generally play stuff like Tangle Wire/Sphere first. You can just cast a Stack and leave it there. Your opponent would most likely leave it alone, as he's gonna have a wad of other more annoying artifacts to deal with soon.

Stuff to sacrifice to it would be itself, nearly depleted Tangle Wires, Moxes or other land, basically anything you don't really need.

Stuff not to sac would be Welders. As long as you have an active Welder, you should be okay.

I've had Smokestacks hit as high as 4+ counters on me, but generally 2-3 is devestating, especially combined with Meditates/Time Vault.

[Fishhead]

Quote I hope someone could answer my rather simple but necessary question.

There are a huge number of things to know about this deck, including some rules subtelties.  The best bet is to break out Apprentice, go into the IRC channel and try and scrounge up a game with someone who knows what they are doing.  I'm sure Psyduck would be willing to "help" you.  

[Cluey]

i decided to try a Tetravus in my deck tonight.
it worked really well swinging a really bad game back my way and slamming the coffin lid down harder in another    

for those of you who can't remember what it does:
Tetravus

Artifact Creature
1/1
Flying
Tetravus comes into play with three +1/+1 counters on it.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may remove any number of Tetravites created with Tetravus from the game. For each Tetravite removed this way, put a +1/+1 counter on Tetravus. Then you may remove any number of +1/+1 counters from Tetravus. For each +1/+1 counter removed this way, put into play a 1/1 Tetravite artifact creature token with flying and with "Tetravite can't be enchanted."

[Renato]

I tested a U/R version very close to Fever construction against the new JP's Hulk: it outmatch Stax/Ducktape in a way that demostrates to me the necessity to change the direction of what is discussed here. Do you feel the same? Can we add black to gain acess to disruption and restricted stuff? I either think that is necessary to change the mana base to add fetchlands, and at least one Strip.

[Fever]

Well, Smmenen has an excellent list, but im not sure im allowed to post it. Someone should check with him to see if he is willing to reveal it.

[Smmenen]

Wait a couple more weeks.

Steve

[Toast]

more stuff from dave

Quote
 
@Smennen: Awesome play with Tog against Rakso!  
 
@Fever: Are you still playing the Fire/Ice in the main?
 
@ScaldMonger: I think Smokestack-based decks will be even stronger in the field now, though i dont believe that GAT will go away.  Look for the die-hard GAT players to **try** replacing the 3 Gush's with Frantic Search, FoF, and/or Accumulated Knowledge.
 
@Rico Suave/Renato: At this point, I believe that some counter ability is needed in this deck. There is too much random hate circulating. 2 or 3 Mana Leak or REB are looking pretty good IMO. I agree with Rico that Mana Leak acts like a hard counter in the case of this deck.

@Renato: This deck already runs at least Strip Mine.
 
The U.S. National Championships are being held near my home in San Diego http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=events/nationals/us03.  I'm going to play this deck in the Vintage side-event and will post a report for everyone. Is anyone else in this area? If so, lets hook up.

[Toad]

I still can't understand how leaving mana open for countering ability would be superior to just playing Sphere of Resistance and Tangle Wire which would simply prevent your opponent from playing his hate spells.

[Fever]

No, i am not running Fire/Ice anymore, in fact i havent for a long time. I running almost an exact copy of Smmenen's list, because its that damn good. Im really sorry, i know its shitty of me to say that and then not post the list, but i have to respect Steve's wishes on this issue.

[ZoneSeek]

We've been developing the list for a while now, and I think we're finally about ready to declare it a finished version. I really wish I could post more about the topic, but we've worked hard and we want to unveil our results when the time is right. I'm glad you agree with our findings, Fever. I'm really confident in this decklist, despite all the naysaying from people that Stax isn't a strong or solid deck.

[Vegeta2711]

Then if your not willing to post the list, did it really take 3 of you to repeat that same thing?   Just stfu about it until you do post the list then.

[walking dude]

Quote (ZoneSeek @ June 13 2003,09:00)despite all the naysaying from people that Stax isn't a strong or solid deck.

You are preaching to the choir here. I think most of the regulars in this thread know that artifact prison was never really a Meta game deck to beat grow. It was a good deck that people didn't happen to find until grow was popular. But it does well against just about everything else (though I still can not get a good game one feeling vs sligh).

I am anticipating your revealing of your build I would like to see how it compares to my build. As a teaser can you tell us if this deck is just an optimal configuration of normal card or does it have secret tech and cards others have not tried before? That would not give away what is in the deck, but it would whet our appetites.\n\n

[Sauron]

Hi all!

I recently acquired 4 Workshops and have a T1 tournament in a few monthes (by which time I expect to own 4 Moxen, borrowing the 5th and blue power, but with virtually no prospect of getting a Lotus). Naturally I want to play a Workshop deck, I am literally the only person in my country, New Zealand, who can build a Workshop deck so I really have to play one don't I?

My expected field will be Sligh, more Sligh, a little more Sligh (none of them powered), about 5 powered decks in total (combo and black based decks predominantly I would expect) and then random decks from various formats.

Do you guys think this would be a good choice, or would MUD with Bridge/Cap be better when Sligh is expected en mass?

[Renato]

I am testing a B/U/R configuration: not a reconfiguration of the archetipe as I think Smmenen is working (and I think that is necessary), but I have fun with it.

STAX/DUCKTAPE

Mana Source: 27
// Mana
       4 Mishra's Workshop
       4 Badlands
       4 Polluted Delta
       1 Swamp
       4 Underground Sea
       1 Tolarian Academy
       1 Strip
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Mox Emerald
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Mox Ruby
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mana Crypt
       1 Black Lotus

Draw / search / Disruption: 29
// Core lock: 12
     4 Smokestack
     4 Sphere of Resistance
     4 Tangle Wire
// Utility 6
       4 Goblin Welder
       1 Yawgmoth's Will
       1 Time Walk
// Draw/Search 11
       3 Meditate
       1 Tinker
       1 Ancestral Recall
       1 Memory Jar
       1 Demonic Tutor
       4 Duress

// Kill: 4
       2 Karn
       1 Triskelion
       1 Phirexian  Colossus

// Sideboard - 15
4 Open slots
SB:  1 Whell of Fortune
SB:  1 Timetwister
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Fire/Ice
SB:  3 Rack and Ruin

[ZoneSeek]

Stax as we have developed it doesn't really have too much jank. I tried nearly anything that had a strictly colorless mana cost, and we finally decided on a list that had the most stable mana base we could afford while offering explosive draws and consistant lock-down.

Quote You are preaching to the choir here. I think most of the regulars in this thread know that artifact prison was never really a Meta game deck to beat grow. It was a good deck that people didn't happen to find until grow was popular. But it does well against just about everything else (though I still can not get a good game one feeling vs sligh).

I agree with this statement entirely. I was simply ranting and getting off-topic. I'm sorry. It just disturbed me to think that there were people out there who thought it could only handle Gro-Atog, etc.

[Renato]

An update of my list:

STAX/DUCKTAPE

// Mana Source: 26
- Mana
      4 Mishra's Workshop
      3 Underground Sea
      2 Badlands
      2 Volcanic Island
      4 Polluted Delta
      1 Island
      1 Tolarian Academy
      1 Strip
      1 Sol Ring
      1 Mox Emerald
      1 Mox Sapphire
      1 Mox Ruby
      1 Mox Pearl
      1 Mox Jet
      1 Mana Crypt
      1 Black Lotus

// Lock, utility, draw and search: 27
- Core lock: 12
      4 Smokestack
      4 Sphere of Resistance
      4 Tangle Wire
- Utility 6
      4 Goblin Welder
      1 Yawgmoth's Will
      1 Time Walk
- Draw / Search 9
      3 Meditate
      1 Ancestral Recall
      1 Memory Jar
      1 Wheel of Fortune
      1 Timetwister
      1 Demonic Tutor
      1 Tinker

// Disruption and Kill: 7
      4 Duress
      2 Karn
      1 Phyrexian  Colossus

// Sideboard: 15
- 2 Open slots
SB:  1 Triskelion
SB:  3 Blood Moon
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Fire/Ice
SB:  3 Rack and Ruin

[Toast]

Quote
@Renato: The U/R/b with Duress and YawgWill looks good.  Duress can give the type of disruption that I'm trying to get with Mana Leak.  Duress is more proactive and should be very strong.  Have you tested it against real opponents(?), and if so, how did it fare?  Without the Wheel of Fortune  and the Windfall, I would be concerned about the deck's ability to "go
off". For example, in one of my games on Saturday, i dropped all seven cards on turn one, the last of which was Windfall, and then i dropped 2 more cards. That was against Keeper.  Phyrexian Colossus is interesting.

@Toad: I'm impressed with the results I'm having with 2 Mana Leak in the main.  Against Combo Keeper (i think they're calling it 'The Shining'), GAT, and Keeper (not the remix, i.e., no Plague Bearer) it really increased  my ability to push stuff through or just say 'no'.  Against Sligh and  Nether Void it allowed me to stop some key spells.  I'm going to run 2  standard because they were "just that good" against everything.

During 14 hours of testing on Saturday, there were several games where I wished I had access to a YawgWill.  The #1 player in San Diego plays B2B in the main (1), and another 2 or 3 in the side (he plays Alice with Oath  of Druids in the side), so i will be keeping my basic land count at 4.  If not
for the B2B threat in my area, I think i would make the change to add
YawgWill.

This deck wins A LOT of games without the sideboard.  First game  match-ups are in our favor, no matter what the opponent is playing.  The deck that gave me the most trouble was The Shining (this is the deck that runs 2 Future Sights, 4 Burning Wish, and then Fireball/Kaervek's Torch in the
sideboard).  After sideboarding, this deck still wins more than it  loses.

Here is my current deck list.  It's extremely consistent in mana  production, drawing ability, and winning with Karn and the Lock.  If you want to  run a YawgWill, replace 1 Island with an Underground Sea and 1 Mountain with  a Badlands, remove the Triskelion to the sideboard (IMO you should have
access to 2 Triskelions), and add the YawgWill.  

Stax_Remix

DaveH Stax_Remix

4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Vault
 (14)

2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Triskelion
(3)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
3 Meditate
1 Tinker
2 Mana Leak
 (10)

1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Goblin Welder
(5)

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Grim Monolith
1 Tolarian Academy
(28)
(60)

Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Mirror Universe
1 Bottle Gnomes
1 Triskelion
1 Jester's Cap
(15)

I hope this is helpful.  I'm convinced that this deck can win in a big way.

we may be able to make a different build with Burning Wish in the main, and put Duress, Balance, Primitive Justice, and other stuff in the side.  

It could be an interesting change.


--Dave H.

[Renato]

Dave,
after testing I have updated my list with Wheel of fortune and Timetwister: it really belongs to the archetype (18 June). I think that Black, with disruption, YangWill and demonic tutor increases the matchup against the top decks, especially Hulk: I manage to win turn 3 and 4, but it is a very close match, with a serious disadvantage after sideboard - I am not satisfied with my sideboard either.
I am curious about your options (Mirror Universe and HRecall) when dou you use them? Sligh, Tnt ?

[Toad]

I really don't feel the need to have counters main. It's useless against a lot of decks. Your best tactics against control decks is to overload them with threats. If you play carefully, they won't be able to counter all your threats. Stax is a prison deck, and you need to be really fast to settle your lock.

Against Keeper, GAT or Hulk, you'll just have to keep strong hands. If they can't counter/disrupt you at least two times in the first two turns, you should win.
Against Sligh, all you have to do is drop a Sphere and just win. Gorilla Shaman is a threat, but you have Triskelion for that. And keeping 1U open during Sligh's turn is not something you want. First turn Sphere, second turn Tangle Wire, you've won. No need to counter key spells now. Price of Progress is a threat too. You'll have to play carefully, and sacrifice useless lands to Smokestack.
Nether Void is a pretty easy matchup for Stax. Once you have a Welder on the board, Void's most potent threats, Hymn to Tourach and Hypnotic Specter, become dead cards, as they don't want to help you to discard artifacts in your graveyard. Just consider Sui and Void as GAT variants with disrupt over counters. Sphere will do the job. Tangle Wire is strong.

[Renato]

Dave,
it do well against control, but I have some problems after sideboarding Blood Moon, so I am considering to include a basic Swamp SB and a 5th fetchland  MD over one Badland to support Duress, Tutor and YWill.
Toad,
what do you think about Rector/Trix matchup?

[Toad]

Rector Trix is probably the worst matchup of our Stax build before SBing, which is really disappointing. They can drop an really early Academy Rector, nullifying your Smokestacks. They have a lot of disrupt and can FOW pretty often. When going second, Spheres of Resistance are not great. Without a full set of Blood Moons in the SB, Games 2 and 3 are going to be really tough too. Boarding in REB for killing Illusions in response to its CIP ability is useless, as a smart Trix player will cast Duress/Therapy before.

[Vegeta2711]

If you guys are having that many problems with Rector Trix and are willing to donate some valuable SB space to beating it.

SB
+4 Su-Chi (Jugg auto smashes Rectors, which is a no-no)
+4 Pyrostatic Pillar

Su-Chi can deal early damage and combined with Wire's and Sphere's can sometimes just go all the way. Though mainly I suggest this so you have another damage source with my other sugggestion of Pyrostatic Pillar.

Pillar is just a friggin beating vs Rector Trix. It not only hurts them while setting up, but limits how much they can use Bargain and their going off turn. If every mox, ritual and tutor is suddenly a shock they lose a lot of life really fast.

My Stacker 3 deck usually wins off Pillar, Sphere and early beats mainly and I can usually go a little better than 50/50.

Just a random suggestion.  

[Toad]

Su-Chi for early beatdown is not that great, because it will take you 5 turns to kill the Rector Trix player, and will do nothing against a first or second turn Rector. And once Rector is in play, Su-Chi is a dead card.

Pyrostatic Pillar is a nice SB card, but really narrow. I will only be usefull against Rector Trix, and I don't imagine having 4 SB cards that are only dedicated to a single matchup.

Obviously, the best (and least narrow) weapons against Rector Trix are Blood Moon, Tormod's Crypt and Phyrexian Furnace. Some of these should be enough, as Stax SB is not meant to be a Rector Trix hoser.

[Vegeta2711]

Well like I said, if your willing to devote the space. Su-Chi isn't dead if you can get Welder down and if he deals 8-12 damage he's done his job. I don't know about you, but playing the RT player wasn't consisently able to get 1st or 2nd turn Rector if your using your disruption and/or going first.

Blood Moon is by far your best option as Crypt/Furnace can be dealt with or simply worked around by hard casting the combo w/o Rector. Just watch out for Rushing River.

[walking dude]

Quote Rector Trix is probably the worst matchup of our Stax build before SBing, which is really disappointing. They can drop an really early Academy Rector, nullifying your Smokestacks. They have a lot of disrupt and can FOW pretty often. When going second, Spheres of Resistance are not great. Without a full set of Blood Moons in the SB, Games 2 and 3 are going to be really tough too. Boarding in REB for killing Illusions in response to its CIP ability is useless, as a smart Trix player will cast Duress/Therapy before.

I've found that the spheres are gold against trix. If you get a sphere down even on turn two it can slow them down a lot. The combo is realy pricey and most of the mana they use to cast it moxen /rituals ect don't work well under sphere. With mud trix has been crushing me game one, but with UR artifact prison I've been doing at least 50/50. The trick is to know when not to be afraid of killing rectors. If a rector dies and they have mana they win. But if it dies when you have a tange wire on the table and a sphere on the board its very hard for them to kill you.

[Toad]

When going second, I've almost always had to face either a first turn Academy Rector or a first turn Duress / Cabal Therapy discarding/naming Sphere of Resistance. Furthermore, Rector Trix can drop a lot of mana artifacts on its first turn, and Spheres become less usefull. As you're a control deck, the Rector Trix player can draw until he's at 1 life without fear, drop all the mana artifacts he has in hand even with a Sphere on the board, and combo off on the following turn. Cards that Stax hate the most are Duress and Force of Will, and Rector Trix packs both, with 4 Cabal Therapies. It's really hard to drop your bullets when going second.

When going first, it's obvious that a first turn Sphere of Resistance is great, but it's the same against all the decks.

[David Hernandez]

Hi guys, it's Dave H. in a new "memberish" form.  

Before i take another step, i want to thank Toast for putting up with all of my emails, and posting here while i was "unregistered", and thanks to Zherbus for protecting TMD while still allowing new memberships from time-to-time.

Ok, here is a tourney report from Tony S. of Southern California.  He used my "Stax_Remix" build exactly and took first place out of about 30 players in a Type I event on Saturday, June 21st 2003.

Round 1 vs. g/w 1-2

GAME 1:
He makes a turn-1 1/1 shadow creature.
I make a turn 1 welder.
He makes basking rootwalla and puts a rancor on the shadow creature.
I make a smokestack.
He proceeds to beat down on me because he sac's the rancor to the smokestack.
I lose game 1.

GAME 2:
I make a turn 1 smoke stack.
He drops a land.
I make a turn 2 Karn.
He sacs land and drops a land.
I swing for a couple of turns with Karn and Animated Artifacts and win the game.

GAME 3 is a lot like game 1 and I lose.
--------

Round 2 vs. White Weenie 2-1

GAME 1:
He makes a quick creature and some crusades, and Stax develops too slowly. I lose game 1.

GAMES 2-3 I get tangle wire and sphere of resistance in play quickly and he can't recover. (That combo is the key vs. weenie, but it must happen quickly).
---------

Round 3 b/g something 2-0

The Deck just works as intended and I take both games.  Both openings were so explosive and he couldn't recover. I never saw much of his deck.
---------

Round 4 vs. Mono U garbage

I go 1st and have to Paris, then I drop volcanic-sol ring-lotus-time twister, mana crypt-sphere; he never has more than 1 land in play after my smokestack hits the board.

Game 2 I make a turn 1 smokestack, and he can't recover.
---------

Top 8

Round 1 vs. Reanimator 2-1

GAME 1 he gets a great start and makes a phattie like turn 2 (the one that brings back creatures from the graveyard). He wins game 1.

GAME 2 I drop 3 moxes and mana crypt, and make 1st turn smokestack plus welder. He can't recover and I win.

GAME 3 I get a fast tangle wire/sphere combo and win.
---------

Round 2 vs. mono g 2-0

I get an early Tangle Wire/Sphere combo in both games 1 and 2. He only gets 6-damage on me over the 2 games (combined), and I win both easily.
----------

Round 3 finals vs. Gro-A-Tog 1-0

The Deck performs its usual brokenness. Sphere hit early (Sphere was the MVP here). He concedes the match after Game 1 (in the finals) and I win the tournament.
-----------

I spoke with Tony this morning, and he said that the Mana Leak's were not used.  He suggests (as Toad does) that they should be pulled.  He wants to put Duress in the deck, and agrees with a previous post that 4 x Duress and 1 x YawgWill should be in here.

Based on his performance, and the strength of Duress against B2B and Control (along with the obvious power of YawgWill), I'm probably going to modify the build to add at least 2 x Duress and 1 x YawgWill.

Tony will be here this afternoon and we will playtest a new build plus my existing build. Tomorrow we will enter the National's Type-I side event and we will create reports for this forum.

As this is my first real post, if i should have put this report on a dedicated URL or something, please let me know and I will do that in the future.

I hope this was helpful.

--Dave

For future reference, this belongs in the Tournament Report Forum.

-Fever \n\n

[MoreFling]

Dave, so apart from the finals against GAT (which is the whole reason this deck got started in the first place), you played against 0 good T1 decks. Hooray!
I'm happy you won the thing, but it has next to no value.

[David Hernandez]

LOL.  No need to poke my eyes out...  

I didn't play it.  Someone else did, and I asked him to draw up a report.  I'm playing tomorrow at National's San Diego and the field should be much more interesting.

Anyway, I thought it was good info regarding how the deck remained consistent in a particular build.  It also proved out that the Mana Leak's are probably sub-optimal, and gave everyone something tangible to focus on (instead of "just a theory").

@Fever: I will put future posts in the proper forum. Thanks for the info.

@Vegeta2711: I agree with Toad that the Su-Chi are not the best card against Rector/Trix.  That deck and Emerald Alice/Oath of Druids are what convinced me to put a Jester's Cap in ths SB.

@Renato: The Mirror Universe is for matchups against weenie and Sligh.  I think Raven was running it and I thought it was a good idea.  

Hurkyl's is for the mirror match and TnT, but I'm probably going to pull them for something else.

--Dave.