The state of the format

[Eastman]

That's a good idea pimpz0r, I run an unpowered (or I should say, 5 proxy) keeper that I will submit for discussion to try and start this trend. I'd suggest we apply '5 proxy' versions of the decks, rather than 'unpowered.' Because quite frankly 5 proxies are allowed in basically every meta where power is a threat.

As for the problems with the state of the format, allow me to copy over my post from this mirror topic in the basic forum:

First of all I'd like to say that I didn't play magic at all until about 8 months ago. I've played like crazy since then and I love the game. I play standard AND vintage. This is a new player's opinion of type 1's 'problems'

There are no problems with the current meta and nothing is degenerate.

There are MORE tier 1 decks in type 1 this year than there usually are in type 2 (or were this year) . The major tier 2 decks are also very competitive and are often the best choices for certain swung metas. If you look at the last few power tournament results you will see that the meta is very healthy. Complaints about the meta have absolutely no justification.

The issue with power should not be an issue. As a completely powerless player I can say honestly that I do not feel limited in MAJOR type 1 tournaments by anything except my skill. With 5 proxies allowed it is not at all difficult to put together very strong builds of tier 1 decks on a very reasonable cost level. I can happily play (and afford ) competitive vintage AND standard by using 5 proxies. If power were a problem I would never have taken up interest in type 1.


When taken to the limit of infinity certain trends in vintage will develop into situations that make our format unplayable. In a few billion years the sun will change phase and incinerate the Earth. I'm not worried about either.

[Matt The Great]

Quote I can happily play (and afford ) competitive vintage AND standard by using 5 proxies.

But what would you do without those precious five proxies?\n\n

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Matt The Great @ July 06 2003,20:25)But what would you do without those precious five proxies?

When don't have them, I simply don't play.

[Matt The Great]

Yes, you've said as much before. I was asking Eastman.

[Prospero]

Here we go...

    Going "broken" is an entirely relative term that completely depends on what your opponent is playing and what is in your hand.  Azhrei gave an example of an unpowered deck hosing what sounded like Keeper because the Sligh player drew lots of nonbasic land hate and a Mox Monkey.  If the Sligh players draw was different (Lightning Bolts, Chain Lightning's and 2/1's for one, that hand could have been thoroughly manhandled - but, had his opponent drawn differently, this hand could have been as good as the previous one was.  It's just not likely that a non powered deck will beat a powered deck.)  The brokenness of your hand, and of your game isn't bound to "I drew my power and played it, and he didn't have power."  It's closer to "my moxes allowed me to break the game open because I was faster.  I outdrew him by casting my Ancestral twice."  Having power helps you climb out of holes better, sometimes you can do it just as easily without it.

    With every set there are new possible additions to your Type 1 deck.  With each new addition there is likely some adequate response, either printed in the past, or printed in that future set.  There are going to be many new threats, but there will be new answers to all those threats, in some form.  The fundamentals to winning:  Speed, Card Advantage, Mana Acceleration, etc.  will always be relevant.  New threats will probably abuse these fundamentals, new responses will try and abuse them as well.  All it proves is that Type One is expensive, but, I think that "Critical Mass" is a doomsday speculation that won't occur for two primary reasons:

1.  Wizards has started listening to us.  They unrestricted Berserk and Hurkyll's Recall.  I have yet to see a deck that is truly abusing either card.  Wizards restricted Gush.  We all complained about how broken the card was, they responded to us (because they've recently seen that they can make a profit on us, just as they do on Constructed/Limited junkies.)

2.  Wizards is testing everything they print.  Wizards can't print a card that is too broken in constructed - and when cards like Mind's Desire get printed, you can always refer to reason number one.

    There has been an interest in Type 1 lately.  My local store has started running monthly Mox tourney's, and had 34 people at the last one - which, when considering the first one had 12, is not too shabby.  Local stores that I know of do run Type 1 tourney's have started allowing up to 5 proxies.  With TMD membership apparently skyrocketing, and with players able to play Type 1 online (through Apprentice for example) the little interest that people had has been cultivated.  I know three people who are playing Type 1 now because of how much fun it was on Apprentice.

    When one of the older players quits, and gets rid of his cards, the power cards that were previously outside of the total pool of power re-enters.  If a player is interested enough in Type 1, that player will be willing to purchase expensive cards - because he enjoys the format enough to spend money on it.

    "Critical Mass" (aka the death of Type 1) will be reached the day Wizards stops printing Magic - there are too many cards for any one person to simplify the overall environment to that one statement.  There will always be new threats and new answers.  The environment is very healthy right now - you always needed power, or proxies, to truly compete with the rest of the field, it was just a question of how much (Keeper no longer plays Twister/Emerald, GAT didn't play Mox Pearl/Ruby - the format is expensive, but just because you want to compete doesn't mean you need to have the full power 9, maybe you need half, or a little more than half - which a proxied tournament can supply you with.)

    I'm just saying that everyone should stop worrying.  There are more competitive decks right now than I remember in awhile.  There are more people playing now than I remember in awhile.  I'm enjoying Type 1 as much now as I ever have.  Calm down and spend more time thinking about what you're going to play at GenCon/next Type 1 tourney near you.  And if you don't have power, make some proxies...Later,

Prospero

[Eastman]

Quote (Matt The Great @ July 06 2003,20:25)

Quote I can happily play (and afford ) competitive vintage AND standard by using 5 proxies.

But what would you do without those precious five proxies?

Matt,

Without the proxies I'm sure I'd still play vintage. Well... not vintage; I'd play 'type 1' and be really very bad at it. I wouldn't play in major tournaments, I wouldn't build good decks, and I certainly would not have become a member of this community.

But I've got the proxies... I enjoy power tournaments, I'm here, and I don't think there are any major problems.

[Matt The Great]

Quote (Eastman @ July 06 2003,23:42)Without the proxies I'm sure I'd still play vintage. Well... not vintage; I'd play 'type 1' and be really very bad at it. I wouldn't play in major tournaments, I wouldn't build good decks, and I certainly would not have become a member of this community.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[dandan]

If Wizards are listening, I'd sure appreciate an explaination of who gets hurt by 5 Proxy tournaments. If I was a dealer with Moxen I'd frankly love it. I am a player with just about all Power (minus that damned Time Walk) and I'd love it. And if I were one of the poor impoverished players like Matt, I'd love it too.

Perhaps Wizards is fine with the fact that their average customer quits the game after 3 years and doesn't think that lessons could be learnt by looking at the group of players who have been playing the longest.

[Ric_Flair]

I think this thread is addressing the concerns of a lot of people without acknowledging the elephant in the room:  Vintage will never become a "serious" (Pro Tour format) because the number of cards in print that are required are insufficient to support lots of people playing and testing the format.  The very existence of restricted cards alone makes the format less skill testing and thus unsupportable as a competitive format.  The fact that many of the most important of those cards have limited availability and extremely high cost is even more problematic.  Add to that fact the unavailability of MODO testing (somewhat compensated by App testing), and Type 1 will forever be a "casual" format.  

However, I used to think that this a bad thing.  In fact, I think that it is the strength of the format.  As Puschkin (sp?) put it the first time I posted, Type 1 is more of an adventure, going back to the early days of Magic.  There are cards out there that people have never or rarely seen.  There is a hidden or almost secret quality to Type 1.  It is like the Wild West of Magic, just beyond the rule of civilization (Type 2) and the watchful (and annoying) eye of the Sheriff (WoTC).  I for one like this.  

I also like comments regarding the more thorough testing of budget decks.  I for one would be more than willing to help test budget decks.  I personally have found a great deal of success and fun with Brought Sui.  I have a few modifications that I think make it work in the new metagame.  I firmly believe that with innovation and work budget decks won't be synonymous with the loser's bracket.  They might not be able to draw "lay down" hands on a regular basis like the $3,000 decks do, but I think they can be made far more competitive.  Maybe we should start a thread for budget decks, tech, and strategy.

[Azhrei]

This thread has been partially cleansed by a VERY pissed off administrator. Cry on your own time, all of you. Cry on my time if you must, but keep it OFF OUR BOARDS. Anyone that has a problem with this can take it up with me at their leisure or stop posting. If someone isn't going to contribute, the EVF doesn't need you.

[Deletehead]

I was playing my unpowered B/G beats last night vs. Powered
Dragon and Parfait. I went back and forth all night and I never
felt like I suffered any major disadvantages. I was playing
B/G beats kinda like PT funk w/Dryads and heavy discard
and I did just fine. The deck I had problems with was the
my proxied up, fully powered Enchantress deck, it sucked monkey ass and it had every bad ass card you can play in a
U/G/W deck (3 Moxen, Lotus, Ancestrall, Timewalk). Of course
I was playing Dragon and he killed me like second turn every
game but I still feel like I could have won if I was playing
a better designed version of the same deck. My point is
Magic is a perfect analogy for the real world, you either
run with the big dogs and get dirty or cry
like a bitch on the porch...Heh... . Either way
people whining about a lack of power should go play
Pokemon or Twister or Type 2 or something...

[Phantom Tape Worm]

@ Grand Inquisitor: You have encapsulated this post perfectly in your four points.  And actually, I'd like to take the posts in a new direction given these points.  In order to get a feel for the general opinion of the community, I would like for everyone to respond to each one of these points, just as you have.  I think we've all done enough arguing back and forth on these topics already and i'd like to see where all of us stand now.  


For those of you who are just joining the conversation and are too lazy to start at the beginning, please read Grand Inquisitor's post above as he has summarized this entire thread very well, and if you could, please respond to each of his points in bullet form.  I will do so now.


1) is the game-play of the current environment overly dependent on opening hand/luck and lacking in playing interaction?

Yes.  In a metagame of what are currently the top decks, I believe Triple S put it best with this comment:

Quote The best decks now just penalize you too harshly for the suboptimal hand.

I believe this is a problem because it causes more of these types of games:

Player 1: "Do you have the broken opening?"
Player 2: "No. Do you?"
Player 1: "Yeah."
Player 2: "Shit, you win."

While these games have existed in the past, they have not existed to the degree that I believe we are currently experiencing.

These types of games are bad because this was the type of game that occured most often during combo winter, which of course was a time in magic where we lost a very large amount of players.

I believe our goal as THE vintage community should be to  protect and nurture the newfound popularity of our format, thus we should avoid a combo winter like state.





2) are we approaching a critical mass of broken cards, and will the environement be (inappropriately) defined by these cards?

Yes.  Critical mass occurs when a deck is made entirely, or almost entirely, of the restricted list AND becomes too dominant.  The deck cannot be stopped by restricting key components because those components are already restricted.  And so the deck cannot be stopped period.  I believe we ARE approaching this day.  With each passing set another solid blue card drawer bleeds into the format.  The most likely scenario is something in a future set allows for academy becoming too good, since all of its components are already restricted.

The question is what to do when that day comes?  Rather than decide then, after the format is ruined for several months and we have lost many players/potential players, i would like to have a plan ready now.  We can present this plan to WotC and essentially decide vintage policy for them (which is what they want anyway).  




3) should budget decks be viable in type 1, as a requisite for a healthy format?

Yes.  Budget decks do several very good things for a format.  First, and formost, they allow new players who may be on the fence about committing to the format to play.  Then after they've tested the waters and decide it is a format worth the investment, they can move up to a more expensive deck.

In that way budget decks are "gateway decks".  Our commitment, as vintage enthusiests, to budget decks should be the same as the drug dealer's commitment to marijuana.  We need it to get new people, who would otherwise be scared off, hooked so they can fuel our existence.  Without new players/junkies, we cease to exist.


The second thing that budget decks do well is provide a non-broken game.  Budget decks' viability provide a good measuring stick to us type 1'ers for the level of accpetable brokenness in the format.  It is my belief that we as a communitiy have become a bit jaded about our brokenness.  As the cardpool has increased so has the amount/level of brokenness in the format.  It has happened slow enough that most of us don't even realize that there is a problem (this ofcourse goes back to point #1).  While we do want broken in type 1, no doubt, it is healthy and even part of the appeal of the format, you can have too much of a good thing.  I believe we've crossed the line, and budget decks are becomming far less competitive.




4) should we adopt (or recommend to wotc) a different approach for handling the B/R list and/or should reprints or proxies be used to affect the available card pool?

Yes.  Given my response to point 2, we really have no choice.  Are reprints the answer?  I don't know.  Reprints do address the dwindling card pool dilemma and assuming we can find an answer to the "critical mass" problem (i'm thinking it will have to be bannings at this point) reprints turns us into type 2...hmmm.  Suddenly the format has enough cards in its pool to accomodate anybody who wants to play.  This of course would WRECK collectors and I personally would be out a small fortune (i am mostly powered now), so on a purely selfish note, i'd say reprints are NOT the way to go  
A strong commitment to budget decks is actually the answer, NOT reprints.  If you don't NEED power to play type 1, reprints aren't that big an issue.  And then we can avoid alienating everyone who would loose 3 or 4k because the value of their cards fell through the floor.

That said, the mind is the slave of the heart. So know that my opinion on reprints is biased.

[Radagast]

When the format reaches critical mass, the solution will be to simply leave it be, relegating it to a casual format with the sole purpose of letting people play with every card ever printed, and move to 1.5, which is exactly what you described: Type I with bannings. This would of course require the seperation of the Type I and 1.5 B&R lists, and the cleaning up of the 1.5 banned list. (This should be done regardless, asap, kind of thing, but at that point it would likely be inevitable.)

[Milton]

PTW asks four questions.  But we should look at these four questions in this context:

What is going on in your metagame?

1) Is game play in your environment too dependant on opening hand / luck?

     Not in my metagame.  It is my experience that decks that are very dependant on luck generally are  not redundant enough to be consistant.  GAT was consistant.  Not consistantly lucky, but consistant through it's redundancy.  
     Also, a perfect hand can be easily disrupted by a single Duress or an opponents Force of Will.  Right now there are no decks in my metagame that are sooooo broken that they completely dominate.

2) Are we approaching a critical mass of broken cards and will my environment be defined by these cards?

     Broken cards define the environment.  A Lightning Bolt is more powerful and more broken than is a Shock.  But, new sets don't usually create broken cards.  Most good cards that we use are from distant sets, not recent ones.  However, Wizards created some awesome creatures recently that have become broken in T1 decks.  But this misses the pont.
     What the creation of new sets does isn't to create new broken cards.  What it does is to create really good card combos.  Cabal Therapy, for example, is a sub-optimal card.  But, combined with Rector, it becomes a phenomal card in one deck.  In any other deck, it sucks.  Gennesis and Anger are simmilar cards.  Generally sub optimal, but in specific decks very good.  We could probabally come up with a list of dozens of cards that are good in specific decks, but are not broken.  This doesn't indicate a critical mass, such as when everyone was packin four Strip Mines or Ritual Necropotence was a common turn one play.
     So, what I see is not the creation of broken cards, but the creation of combos.  Maybe not even combos, but cards that just work really well together.
     But, I think this is a good thing.  Granted, the creation of new combos or the development of cards that work well together throw off all kinds of existing deck strategy and cause the format to shift more quickly than before.  But, this is good.  I didn't like the three or four years when Keeper was king.  Our format was not responsive at all.  I mean, TnT should have been invented when Goblin Welder was printed and Workshop became unrestricted.  But, we were slow on it.  We were slow to embrace Gro.  Keeper continued to hold dominance, but our formats increase in popularity over the past three years has brought some great minds to the game.  Now, my environment has the potential to shift quickly, which means that a strategy or deck design that was good last month has become less than optimal this month due to shifts.  One good Stacks deck can drastically alter the number of GAT players, for example.
     Also, as more proof of this we are seeing more and more decks using less and less of the restricted list than they did three or four years ago.  

3) Should budget decks be viable in T1?

     Well, you can't truly have a budget deck in any competitive format, be it T1, T2 or whatever.  But, the fact is that you can probabally be more competitive in T1 with budget decks than in any other format.  Generally a good T1 budget deck card, such as Cursed Scroll, will be less expensive than a premium T2 playable rare.  I think Ankh Sligh is a good budget deck.  It wins tournaments.  Fish is another good example.
     I think the real problem comes when the solutions to good decks are very expensive.  If Energy Flux or Duress or Force of Will or Bloodmoon were prohibitively expensive ($50 each), then I would worry.

4) Should we adapt a new approach to the BR and list and reprints?

     Hell no.  Like I said, I think more and more decks are using fewer and fewer cards off the restricted and banned list.  
     As for reprints, no way.  It would crush stores and hammer collectors.  I've been in the game long enough to remeber the exodus from Magic that occurred following the release of Chronicles.  It took Wizards a while to fix that mistake.
     As for Proxies, no way.  We have a proxied tournament once a month, although I've never been to one.  But, hell I'm playing B/U mask now.  I need three Hurkyls Recall's.  I don't have them.  It's my responsibility to get them before the tournament.  That's part of the game.  Play the deck you got.  Get the cards you need.

[the phoenix]

Much to my confusion, I cannot find Grand Inquisitor's post  In any case, here are my responses to his four questions:

1) Is the game-play of the current environment overly dependent on opening hand/luck and lacking in playing interaction?

No, I don't think so. Perhaps it is more dependant on luck than in the past, but I don't think it is overly so. As for player interaction, who needs it? You get plenty of interaction whenever you go to a tournament, regardless of your matches (assuming that I am interpreting "player interaction" correctly).

2) Are we approaching a critical mass of broken cards, and will the environement be (inappropriately) defined by these cards?

No, we're not approaching any sort of critical mass, and we never will. Granted, the sheer number of cards available to use in T1 will likely one day make the format so broken that luck and going first will play an increasingly huge role in deciding the outcome of matches, but this won't destroy the format but, rather, it will change it. As the T1 cardpool grows, so does the number of competitive decks and the opportunities available in terms of deck design and metagaming. Indeed, the format will shift away from in-game skill and towards out-of-game deck building/metagaming. I look forward to this change because I think it will be fun (I love brokenness ), and it would seem that we're currently witnessing its beginnings.

3) Should budget decks be viable in type 1, as a requisite for a healthy format?

Of course, ideally, budget decks should be viable, to allow everybody, rich and poor, to take part in the pleasures of T1. The sad reality, however, is that there's no way in hell that budget decks can be among the top decks for an extended periode of time in the average metagame (strongly metagamed hate budget decks can always steal a tournament or two if they get the right match-ups). Making budget decks viable in T1 would entail taking away what I love about T1 so much - brokenness. So in that light, no, budget decks should not be vialbe in T1. In terms of the health of the format, I don't think that brokenness (read: non-budget decks) will effect it negatively. Like I said in the previous question, the format will change but it will remain healthy, it will just be healthy in different ways.

4) Should we adopt (or recommend to wotc) a different approach for handling the B/R list and/or should reprints or proxies be used to affect the available card pool?

No, I think that WotC is handling the B/R list just fine right now (in terms of handling, not necessarily in terms of specific choices ). They are merely guiding it along its natural course. As for getting more old staple T1 cards into the market, I think that doing so would be good for the format since it would allow for more people to play T1 which, in turn, could possibly result in an eventual T1 pro-tour of sorts.

I think that WotC should slowly reprint P9 and other old T1 staples that would be identical to their original older counterparts (as much as possible) and, slowly, they should put these cards up for sale at their various WotC stores accross the globe. This a) makes them money b) does not make the value of P9 plummet (it's done slowly) c) does not affect T2 d) allows more people to have access to brokenness.

In conclusion, I will share these two thoughts:

- Why fix it if it is broken?
- Man I love T1.\n\n

[jpmeyer]

On the way back from the TMD champs way back in March I was discussing a similar idea of T1 eventually hitting a critical mass because of sheer redundency, and we felt that this probably would be a concern.  I'm starting to have second thoughts about it, though.  Through MaRo and Buehler's columns each week, it's clear that R&D is going in a really new direction now with Magic to get it to work the way it's "supposed" to work, and this requires lots of cuts to commonly held sacred cows.  Card drawing should be sorcery speed instead of instant speed because it would always be played EOT given the chance (think Concentrate or Deep Analysis,) counters need to work more along the lines of high-cost, high-effect (think Dismiss) to prevent them from gaining inordinate tempo gain, cheap creatures with drawbacks need to be phased out and replaced with more moderately priced creatures with more special abilities (think Anurid Brushhopper or Exalted Angel,) and some whole classes of cards need to be heavily weakened (think global LD like Armageddon and pinpoint discard like Duress.)  Type 1 already has pretty heavy redundency already so I'm having a lot of trouble working within the new guidelines thinking of many types of cards that can still get new additions.  The only one that springs to mind are possibly multilands, and even they have very steep competition.\n\n

[Ric_Flair]

First I need to get this out of my system

Quote 4) Should we adapt a new approach to the BR and list and reprints?

    Hell no.  Like I said, I think more and more decks are using fewer and fewer cards off the restricted and banned list.  
    As for reprints, no way.  It would crush stores and hammer collectors.  I've been in the game long enough to remeber the exodus from Magic that occurred following the release of Chronicles.  It took Wizards a while to fix that mistake.
    As for Proxies, no way.  We have a proxied tournament once a month, although I've never been to one.  But, hell I'm playing B/U mask now.  I need three Hurkyls Recall's.  I don't have them.  It's my responsibility to get them before the tournament.  That's part of the game.  Play the deck you got.  Get the cards you need.

Okay, normally I let things slide that I think are wrong, but enough is enough of this kind CRAP.  Magic's most successful year in terms of sales and in terms of tournament participation in all formats was this past year.  MaRo and Buehler as well as Hasbro financials say as much.  Coinciding with the release of Onslaught, every positive indicator has gone up.  Furthermore, the release of Chronicles had a similar effect.  The game has only grown, not declined (except for a brief hiccup with Combo Winter), since the release of Chronicles.  A few dealers that gouged people with high prices for dumb cards lost out, but as we have seen since the re-release of Serra Angel, reprinting cards is something that is good for the game and for collectors.  Foil Serras are quite valuable.  With a new card face and foils I imagine that the old cards would hold their value quite well.  It is time for people who spent tons on Power to QUIT BITCHING.  The only reason they don't want reprints is because a) they will have wasted money and b) it will become readily apparent that what they lack in skill is made up for by ridiculously powerful cards that a monkey could win with.  Reprints, yes.  Proxies, absolutely.  Comments like those quoted above indicate a lack of skill and a fundamental misunderstanding of what the game (yes it is a GAME) is about.  

Sorry about the outburst.  Now on to the requested topics.

1. Opening hand and luck:

For the most part I think that the environment is healthy enough.  Stax does present a problem though.  It is really easy to get a good hand with the deck.  When playing on line out of about 20 games the Stax player got 2 hands that were basically lay downs (Eucher term).  I think that this is leading us to one conclusion that is painful but necessary--Workshop needs to go back on the Restricted list.  If TnT were the only deck that used it, it could remain unrestricted.  As it is, it is too good.

2. Broken Cards and Critical Mass

I have a sneaking suspicion that this is the way the format is headed.  Decks like Stax and the Shining seem to be little more than packages of combo with a few card drawers.  They a certainly intriguing decks, but in the end they will only get better until the point where....

But some other impulses, like those that JP mentions, seem to show a different road.  Magic's creators seem to be willing to go in other directions and I think this will help slow down the critical mass problem.  Hopefully instead of a few really broken decks we will have a vast array of viable decks.

3. Budget decks

I wholeheartedly agree with this idea.  Budget decks are gateways to the format and to have someone repeatedly be crushed by the Four Thousand Dollar Solution (Stax) or TnT we all but insure that the format will not grow.  If Vintage is to thrive and not simply survive budget decks must be viable.

4. Restrictions

I have two sentiments about this.  First is that the approach used now, at least since the unrestriction of Berserk has been a good one.  Reprints would help, but that is an entirely different issue.

My other sentiment echoes comments made during Combo Winter. Ban everything until Necro is good, then ban Necro.  Instead it would be ban everything until Anhk Sligh is good then leave the format alone.  

Personally I think we should take the first approach until critical mass is definitively reached then switch to the second approach.  

Good thread.

[Smmenen]

Quote (Ric_Flair @ July 08 2003,08:26)For the most part I think that the environment is healthy enough.  Stax does present a problem though.  It is really easy to get a good hand with the deck.  When playing on line out of about 20 games the Stax player got 2 hands that were basically lay downs (Eucher term).  I think that this is leading us to one conclusion that is painful but necessary--Workshop needs to go back on the Restricted list.  If TnT were the only deck that used it, it could remain unrestricted.  As it is, it is too good.

Ahh.  Someone has breached the issue.  And it is a debatable Issue.  In the end, I think it should stay as it is, but it isn't just my opinion that makes a difference.

I think you could build a real good argument that Workshop should be restricted.  And moreover, despite the fact that I think it doesn't need it, I wouldn't mind it (despite owning Workshops) becuase I would _love_ to see some collectors and dealers get fucked in the ass.

On the broader subject of Critical Mass and distortion of the environment, I think NO ONE can as of yet tell what is going to be needed becuase, on my watch it is only the 8th of July, which means that it is going to take a while for the whole metagame to sort out this mess of Scourge and Gush leaving the format - both which have profound and deep consequences which MUST have a ripple effect throughout the whole game.  I think Combo will definately be on the increase, but there are other unknown factors.  I KNOW that the most brokeness will probably emerge at Gencon.  After Gencon, we might even be able to sort out this whole mess.

Steve\n\n

[jpmeyer]

The market for cards is very different than it was back in 95 when Chronicles came out and reprints killed prices.  This was when card value was based almost entirely on collectability rather than power.  The people that lost out here were the ones that were mad that their Carrion Ants went from $20 to nothing and then never recovered because they are unplayable.  Cards like Mishra's Workshop and Illusionary Mask have shown that prices even on OOPs are based heavily on the current pricing system of usefulness.  Back in 2001 when only Stacker played Workshop (and no one played Stacker because mono-blue was far and away the best deck and Keeper was far and away the second best deck) Workshops were only worth around $25-30.  Now SC can get away with selling them for $150 and still have a dozen on backorder.

That all said,  has stated time and time again that reprints WILL NEVER HAPPEN so it's a moot point.

[Milton]

Quote Okay, normally I let things slide that I think are wrong, but enough is enough of this kind CRAP.  Magic's most successful year in terms of sales and in terms of tournament participation in all formats was this past year.  MaRo and Buehler as well as Hasbro financials say as much.  Coinciding with the release of Onslaught, every positive indicator has gone up.  Furthermore, the release of Chronicles had a similar effect.  The game has only grown, not declined (except for a brief hiccup with Combo Winter), since the release of Chronicles.  A few dealers that gouged people with high prices for dumb cards lost out, but as we have seen since the re-release of Serra Angel, reprinting cards is something that is good for the game and for collectors.  Foil Serras are quite valuable.  With a new card face and foils I imagine that the old cards would hold their value quite well.  It is time for people who spent tons on Power to QUIT BITCHING.  The only reason they don't want reprints is because a) they will have wasted money and b) it will become readily apparent that what they lack in skill is made up for by ridiculously powerful cards that a monkey could win with.  Reprints, yes.  Proxies, absolutely.  Comments like those quoted above indicate a lack of skill and a fundamental misunderstanding of what the game (yes it is a GAME) is about.  

No, it's not just a game.  It's a collectable also.  Wizards recognizes this.

My play group went to shit when Chronicles was released, or should I say the month before it was released when the list of reprints was leaked.  The guys just quit, sold all of their stuff.  I bought a lot of that stuff and expanded my collection.  Wizards has recognized this and the no-reprint list was created after the Chronicles debacle.  And it was a debacle.  It was eight years ago, so we forget a little bit, but that and the unlimited printing of Fallen Empires at the same time really hurt the secondary market for a while.  That hurts stores who are selling singles.  That hurts stores that support tournaments and support the format.

But the point is this:  The cards are not that hard to get.  There are far more moxes, Ancestrals, Time Walks, etc... than there are competitive T1 players.  You can buy a beat up Mox and put it in a black-backed sleave, unlike four years ago.  You can buy an Alpha mox and play that in a sleave, unlike five years ago.  The cards are out there.  Getting them is part of the game.

Reprints have become a sore issue apparently.  I guess we will have to RESPECTFULLY agree to disagree.\n\n

[Toast]

I think workshop is too popular and expensive of a card for wizards to make a blind stab at and restrict because they think that it might be overpowered. If they restrict it there better damn well be a degenerate combo resulting from it.

About the post scourge meta game...I really do not think I am going to like it. Storm is a stupid ability and it is obvious that they were paying no attention to T1 when they made it. Force of Will is the glue that holds this format together and they just made cards which are useable in combo decks that force of will can't deal with. The problem with Storm is the same problem I have with dreadnaught, a triggered ability that goes on the stack before the card even resolves (in dreadnaught's case it is because the card can be resolved before the ability goes on the stack meaning the ability never does go on the stack). They could easily errata storm to read:

Storm (Copy this spell for each spell played before it this turn. These copies do not have Storm.)

this way it still gives the desired effect (they wanted to prevent an infinate loop) without making the spell uncounterable.

My prediction is without the errata critical mass will be reached within the next year, and a whole string of bannings will have to occur (or maybe a restriction on the number of restricted cards you can use in a deck)

[Milton]

Well, I think we all have to wait and see in regards to the Storm mechaninc, the new restrictions and the health of the foramt.

Speculation at this point is just speculation.

After GenCon we should have a good idea what the state of the format is.  I think it looked pretty healthy following Origins, but I wasn't there and just read a few tournament reports.

[Fever]

What i find amusing is that a whole bunch of people are throwing the term "critical mass" around without any real idea of what it means. There is no scenario i can imagine where we reach this mythic breaking point within the next year or two unless Wizards decides to reprint Ancestral and leave it unrestricted.

Also, on the issue of reprints: THERE IS NO ISSUE. Yes, i would welcome them, as would many others, but there is no chance this will happen because Wizards cares a hell of a lot more about the bottom line than the wants of budget T1 players.

Lastly, on Workshop, it is a matter that has been discussed to no end, yet is still unresolved in my mind. People argue that you cant restrict it just because Stax is broken, but i dont see it that way. If Gush got restricted solely because of how good GAT was, then it is perfectly feasible to restrict Workshop based on the performance of Stax. However, at this point in time, Stax has not reached the stage of dominance i would deem necessary in order to restrict Workshop, of course this doesnt mean that it cant or wont in the near future.\n\n

[MoreFling]

Quote (Fever @ July 08 2003,18:56)What i find amusing is that a whole bunch of people are throwing the term "critical mass" around without any real idea of what it means. There is no scenario i can imagine where we reach this mythic breaking point within the next year or two unless Wizards decides to reprint Ancestral and leave it unrestricted.

And you are trying to say what? I think it's funny that you don't seem to understand what is meant here.

I'll explain.

Critical mass means that at some point, decks will be lightning fast, unstoppable, and really strong. Think Combo Winter.
Right now, look at the upper tier decks. It's all combo, except for Stax. Now explain to me again, how that doesn't seem to be headed to critical mass.

[Fever]

You know what is even funnier? Somone explaining critical mass to the guy who first mentioned it on this very thread. Now, that is comedy. Im sorry to report i actually know what i am talking about, but thanks for the explanation anyway.

Im not sure why you felt offended, since my previous comment certainly was not aimed at you.

[MoreFling]

I didn't mention critical mass in this thread, but I did in kl0wns Gush discussion. I'm not sure who was first, and quite frankly I don't care.

Back to my previous post. My question still stands! How can you possibly say that when an enviroment which has an upper tier full of disruptive combo decks and stax (ok ok, and hulk smash, but I'm not convinced yet by it so far), is not going towards critical mass?

I think ric_flair has a great point about the budget decks btw. They are already unplayable right now because of the sheer speed and disruption of the upper tier, thus noone will start playing vintage. They will much rather try to compete in block, t2 or 1.x.
Or just keep playing casually with friends.

edit: for the record, I'm not personally offended, however, I do think you are totally wrong, and actually rather ignorant. No offense.\n\n

[Dante]

Quote (Smmenen @ July 08 2003,10:45)Ahh.  Someone has breached the issue.  And it is a debatable Issue.  In the end, I think it should stay as it is, but it isn't just my opinion that makes a difference.

I think you could build a real good argument that Workshop should be restricted.  And moreover, despite the fact that I think it doesn't need it, I wouldn't mind it (despite owning Workshops) becuase I would _love_ to see some collectors and dealers get fucked in the ass.

I think it would be a plausible argument, but not good enough to warrant restriction.  What has Stax dominated?  It won a few GAT-plagued dulmens and places well in other large tournaments.  It doesn't dominate (so far, maybe it will, that's another topic when it actually happens).

On a separate topic, if we "ban everything until necro is good, then bad necro", what's left of Type 1??  I guess we can all play kird apes and whirling dervishes and be happy....


On the budget deck issue - there are only so many copies of the power to go around.  There is power available for those who really want it.  If people want the Type 1 scene to "thrive" ala the Pro Tour formats and all that jazz, then that will require reprints, no ifs ands or buts about it.  Odds of that happening are slim to none.  Thus, the format will stay roughly the same size(possibly double or triple in size, at best) unless reprints happen.  Again, if you restrict all the remaining "power" cards (mana drain, academy rector, workshop, etc), then we are basically playing extended with duals and lightening bolts.  Oh boy, that sounds fun.  (note the sarcasm dripping off your screen).

If someone doesn't want to or can't spend the money to buy Type 1 cards to get into the format, then that's just too bad.  Every hobby/competitive game has entry costs and the idea that people are somehow entitled or SHOULD be expected to compete at a format's highest level for little capital investment is ridiculous, when that format involves something that is collectible and has greater demand than supply.

Accept that fact that Type 1 costs what it costs to play it at the highest level and unless WotC reprints, that's what it's going to cost.  If we restrict all the "expensive powerful cards", you don't have anything that resembles type 1 anymore.

We've all also heard the "well without new budget players the format will die" argument.  Possible, the format may die.  But if you dumb down type 1 beyond a certain point, you've already killed it.  It's dead both ways.  It's just more obvious the first way.

Dante

[Fever]

Quote (Dante @ July 08 2003,10:20)On a separate topic, if we "ban everything until necro is good, then bad necro", what's left of Type 1??  I guess we can all play kird apes and whirling dervishes and be happy....

/nick JP Miz0r

ph34r t3h 1337 4p3s!!!

/nick Fever

[Toast]

Fever, since your comment was directed at me let me say this... first of all I commend you on your ability to decipher whether or not somebody knows what critical mass is based on a 1 sentence prediction with no evidence to back it up.

That aside I will elaborate on my previous post. Things that have kept combo in check IMO: lack of consistancy, countermagic, discard.

Onslaught- fetchlands= 4c combo is now very consistant

scourge- storm = way to bypass countermagic...draw card and kill card

that leaves discard like duress which is really not enough protection against combo.

discard becomes fairly useless if a deck gains enough redundancy and consistancy. Which means that once combo gains a little bit more of both critical mass will be reached because combo decks will be difficult for even the most tuned of control decks to beat.

Mirrodin is supposed to be an artifact set with colorless spells, assuming that at least some of them will be worthy of play in a t1 combo deck this is very bad news. Then there are 2 more (probably artifact heavy) sets for them to screw up the format with too. Maybe I am being a bit pessimistic but they have been doing some pretty stupid things as of late.

[Vegeta2711]

1) is the game-play of the current environment overly dependent on opening hand/luck and lacking in playing interaction?

Um... it's pretty damn close. Unless getting broken hands every 1 of 3-4 games is super fair. And let me expand here, this is the LIMIT I think of how powerful decks can be before it becomes totally stupid. In simple terms, if decks get anymore broken/consistent in they're brokenness then the format is as bad as the original combo winter really was.

With my Stacker 3 deck I consistently get starts that make people want to break my face. Examples include, 1st turn Ankh and Sphere, Pillar and Welder, Vise and Sphere, Pillar and Sphere, etc etc.

Stax does this very consistently as well, if you read the newest report (I guess double report) in the tourney section. I count 7 times it just goes 'I win' out of about 20 games.

"He scoops when I resolved my third Sphere in 3 turns game 1"

"Let me introduce you the brokeness of $tax little guy. First turn Workshop, Mox,  Sol Ring, Tangle Wire, Sphere of Resistance. Second turn Volcanic,  Smokestack. Third turn Timetwister, drawing into a fourth turn Meditate/Tangle Wire, with 2 counters on the Smokestack. "

Etc etc. oh and I only counted the times he pulled it against a FoW or Duress packing deck. So much for normal disruption being good.

2) Are we approaching a critical mass of broken cards, and will the environement be (inappropriately) defined by these cards?

See this question I find funny, because we were ALREADY defined by less than broken cards for a long time now. Mana Drain for example helped to define the enviroment for a long long time. I think though lately we've gotten so many new tools that someone could find a deck/strategy to eventually wreck the enviroment. It just hasn't happened yet.

Combo has been devloped in Rector Trix and Tendrils Rector that can consistently go off turn 3 and has plenty of tools to beat control are good examples. They aren't dominate yet, because no optimal versions have been created and decks haven't adjusted correctly yet to combat this threat. For this question I agree with Milton, after Gencon we'll be in better positions to judge this.

3) Should budget decks be viable in type 1, as a requisite for a healthy format?

It would be nice, but we've had a following for a while so even if the newer people drop off for a while I can't say it would be a huge change from how is USED to be. We grew a lot already, I think worrying about the overall environment should be first though, this second.

4) Should we adopt (or recommend to wotc) a different approach for handling the B/R list and/or should reprints or proxies be used to affect the available card pool?

Eventually I think we'll have to adapt bannings since restrictions aren't enough.

Reprints we could never get anyone to agree on anyways, so I'll just leave it as this. We have 0 control over reprints, the only real fact is that reprints would allow them to generate a huge amount of revenue quickly. Which means when they happen it's going to be when they feel they can cash in the most from it and that they won't give a shit what anyone says.