The Status of Fish

[Diablos8]

Stifle is great, as it has such a wide variety of uses, but Extract can single handedly win games on it's own. Stifle will stop a fetchland or 2, stop a Smokestack trigger, etc, but Extract will just rip win conditions out of the opponent's deck. Seeing a wide variety of decks they rely on 1-2 cards for winning, I think it's the best thing the deck has to offer.

[Sylvester]

Rogue, re stifle:

Isn't Cabal Therapy's flashback used to sac rector? If so, it woud be a MAJORLY bad idea to use it if you know the opponent has a Stifle in hand.

Costs are paid before the effect goes on stack, so it goes like:

Sac rector, RFG rector, put RFG effect on stack, put therapy effect on stack.

Resp: Stiffle enchantment fetching ability.

No?

OTOH, i can see the strength of having 70% chances of getting an extract/thief on T2 against decks that rely on restricted engine cards.\n\n

[Rogue]

You are correct, sylvester. That was a grevious error in judgement on my part. I suppose beyond my argument, the problem is that now you are facing a deck that still has 3 rectors to get bargain, as opposed to a deck with 4 rectors without that option. *Shrugs*. Stifle might very well be better there. Still, that was just my reasoning, not the entire scope of situations where similar things happen. I would really like to run both, but the last part of my argument still stands: stifle is reactionary and has a cost. While it is only 1, most of my first 4 turns aren't spent with mana open.
I think the solution is to maindeck one and sideboard the other, and try to figure out which is better against a broader metagame.

[Diablos8]

If we need to find out what's better in a given metagame, we could just take all the "viable" decks into account, and see what effect each card will have on the deck. I'm really tired right now, so I can do it tomarrow when I wake up, unless you kids would like to step in too

[Rico Suave]

As far as Rector Tendrils goes, you can try to Extract Bargain, but most decks pack at least Necro as back-up, if not Future Sight as well.  Don't forget Mind's Desire either.  At that rate, Extracting Tendrils would be a better strategy, but there's usually 2 or so of them.  A single Extract seems like a dead draw without Thief.  

Stifle however, kills their mana (5-6 fetchlands), it stops Rector's ability, it hits the random suicide Mind's Desire, and it's a lot better to topdeck.  I'd rather deal with the cards they draw than the ones they don't.

That's just my experience from the other side of the board.\n\n

[ZoneSeek]

Rico Suave - That's what I'm looking for: Input from the other side. I'd really like to hear what the opponents of Fish fear from the wonderfully rainbow-affiliated critters. I know it's a lot to ask, and most people won't answer, but I appreciate your input.

I'm very much taking into consideration some of the wonderful posts about Extract in this thread. I will have to give it a serious swing and see how I like it.

I have to agree that taking Bargain out of the deck in the first turn is -very- appealing - but is it really that much of a setback? I'm inclined to think first turn mana disruption could be far more devastating to combo, but who knows.

[Sylvester]

Please show me a tendrils deck use necro as its engine. It's doable, but i believe Zherbus made an analogy with a crippled & a 100m race that i find especially well applicable.

Casting 10 spells with 6(+1 tendril + PROTECTION) cards in hand is imho pretty hard.

[wuaffiliate]

if anyone knows the game can be won with necro or sight its Brad . the deck doesnt need bargain to win, its not as narrow as the illusions build are/were.

my experience vs combo says kills the ability to get the engine going, not the engine if you have the option.\n\n

[Rico Suave]

Of course it's hard.  Yes, it feels like a cripple too, but the deck can still get the job done with Necro.  And Future Sight is even easier to go off with.  After SB'ing a lot of builds can go for Form of the Dragon as well.  I'm not saying Extract isn't a good card for the job, but many Rector decks have tricks up their sleeves.  

To be totally honest though, Fish puts Rector Tendrils through hell, and those cards are both quite effective against it.  Perhaps it would be more beneficial to talk about which is better against the rest of the field.

[Diablos8]

But also remember that there always can be more than 1 Extract to rip the Necro in addition to a Bargain. Plus, you can put the Rootwater Theif on top of that, a little slower, but it gets the job done.

[Mattdog]

Diablos I was wondering if you can post/Pm me a decklist of your U/w Fish deck. There was a very good version i saw do well at gencon day 1. I played vs the deck in the last round at table 1.

Thanks a head of time.

[Diablos8]

@Mattdog

Since this is a discussion about Mono-U Fish, I can't post it here, but I'll gladly send you the copy a U/W Fish that my friend Adam and I built for the TMD Invitational(Went 5-2)

[Rico Suave]

Nobody is denying that Extract is good, or that multiples of them are better.  The thing is that Stifle is just as effective, and it's just as good in multiples.  

My point is that Extract is good against what, one version of one other deck?  That's way too narrow, and Stifle is much better against everything else.

[Diablos8]

Extract is good against a majority of the field. Of course we've really only mentioned 1 deck, but look into it. It rips out Goblin Trenches, and i don't suppose Keeper will win with it's Gorrilla Shaman now do I? Against Stax, it rips out the Karn and Triskelion too. There is a large amount of the field working on a low amount of win conditions that Extract can get into.

[Skeeter974]

iv been reading thru this thread, was all very interesting and helped out my fish's sideboard alot, but in the maindeck, has coastal piracy been cut? i just started using them and i cant believe i have played so long w/o them. I love them! any comments from the pros?

[Rebel428]

My experience with Future Sight showed that it's simply too expensive.  Usually, if it happens to resolve AND there are a good number of creatures on the table, I'm probably winning anyway.  

Concerning Extract: I personally haven't found it to be worthwhile, but that might be due to the fact that I never see combo.  I'd say it's a metagame choice.  It, combined with Rootwater Thief, can be totally evil against a decent number of decks.  However,as Rico said, Stifle is a better general-purpose spell.

[Diablos8]

Quote (Skeeter974 @ Aug. 09 2003,21:57)iv been reading thru this thread, was all very interesting and helped out my fish's sideboard alot, but in the maindeck, has coastal piracy been cut? i just started using them and i cant believe i have played so long w/o them. I love them! any comments from the pros?

I had Coastal Piracy in my build before I moved it to U/W, but it was removed from the deck when we went o the white plan. It's still amazing tech, and if you can have room for it in your deck, more power to you.

[bebe]

Just speaking as one who has faced and tested  Extract/Stifle/Thief from early on ... Extract definately are a sideboard card but they hose a decent amount of decks. If you main deck Thieves and a few Stifles the combination can be quite devastating ... I've experienced svg beatings and given svg beatings due to dmg they can do to your game plan.
I mentioned them as a possibility however. The drawback, of course, is that they are not pure counters and they do replace them. I currently play four Stifle in my mono blue deck and love them. At worst they are an additional four Wasteland ( against some decks this is uber good tech) or fodder for my FoWs and MisDs.
In my Finkeltron i replaced the Null Rods in the side with three Stifles and often side them in ( any decks playing Fetches can expect them and Trix and Dragon are now near auto wins).  
As to Coastal Piracy - I've beenn using one copy since Marc asked me to test it out and I love it. Fish is all about draw and tempo and the Piracy is solid.

[Fever]

I dunno guys, 4cc enchantments dont really appeal to me in this type of deck. I understand its a bomb if it gets going, but that can be said for a lot of cards. I may test it, but it seems just a tad too slow for my tastes.

As for Stifle, i am currently testing this counter configuration for my Fish deck:

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Stifle

With two more copies of Stifle and MisD in the sb. I think that, even though this deck likes to tap out a lot, a pair of Stifles really compliment the deck. They have a myriad of uses, which i wont go into, but even if none of those situations arise you can always pitch it to FoW/MisD. Obviously nothing is set in stone, but i like the way it feels so far.

[Diablos8]

Quote (Fever @ Aug. 11 2003,06:32)I dunno guys, 4cc enchantments dont really appeal to me in this type of deck.

That's basically the reason why I removed it in the 1st place. It's great when it gets going, but by the 4th turn, I'd assume the deck already have a good amount of creatures and/or a Standstill to cover it up.

[ZoneSeek]

Coastal Piracy just never really appealed to me. I'm a huge, huge fan of drawing cards - but I find the draw engine to be just perfect. Anything more, to me, is excessive and will result in too much draw, not enough smash face. Drawing Coastal Piracy against something like Stax would have to be the worst feeling imaginable.

Fever, I run the same configuration of counters - but no extra in the sideboard. (Well, Disrupt.) I never found it all that necessary to bring in more Misdirections - in fact, if you're going to bring them in, why not just use Divert instead?

The more I play it, the more I like "Leave One Mana Open" Fish.

[Fever]

When would i bring in more Misdirections? Well, versus: Tog, Keeper, Suicide and Sligh. Remember that MisD is just as important to force your own spells through, which is why i love having 8 pitch counters against control. The more chances i have at resolving my Standstill the better, even at the cost of some card disadvantage. Divert is good, but it wont let me go: Island, Cloud, Standstill with counter backup on turn 2.

[Diablos8]

I've found Misdirection to be one of the most important cards in the deck. It easily stops many spells that give the opponent card advantage, burn your weenies, destory your lands, etc. It's too valuable of a spell not to have 4 of them. Divert is nice, but you need the mana open, whereas MisD you can just play tapped out, plus Divert has the drawback of not working.

[Vegeta2711]

Go Stifle! Extract is such utter ass here I'm amazed you guys are suggesting it. I mean seriously, you have to cast 2 or more within the first 2 turns to be effective against just about anything.

Keeper can ride the stupid little monkey to victory if they only packed 1 win condition or even run something like Flaming Gambit SB'ed. Combo can go off with Necro or FS out and don't need the Bargain. Hell I've had people go 2x Extract first turn to me and I just busted out FotD and Time Walk and proceeded to blow him into tiny pieces. Against heavily redundant artifact decks it doesn't affect them at all.

Stifle just goes with the entire tempo theme of Fish and is a good card by itself, unlike Extract which happens to be a rather crappy card.

[Diablos8]

Extract, Crappy?? Lol. When actually played in high level tournaments, It has proven to be extremely useful. Sure it's not the best against matchups that feature good amount of win conditions and bombs, but look at all that it can do. It easily nukes Keeper's win condition, nuke Stax's Trike/Karn, it rips out Academy for those style decks, and it rips out Mind's Desire/Hunting Pack, etc for the Tendrils decks, and it rips out Bargain/Necro. I don't know what you think if you say Extract is a crappy card, because it hoses combo sooo good, and that's what most of the formatr is.

[Grendal]

In all honesty I think Fish is severly hard pressed to perform well in this current meta.   Fish has never really been a counter deck threat, in that it does pack force of wills, but doesn't have the ability to sit back and do the control thing.   That being said combo decks usually don't have to terribly much to worry about when going off against Fish, atleast not the ones that go off relatively fast.

Just about any aggro deck gives Fish problems, Sligh / SUI can both be a tough battle for Fish, and to Hulk, Fish pretty much seems to be a walk in the park.    I like the way Fish seems to be going, in the more (hoser) direction with lots of mana disruption...   maybe its time for a permanent color splash and some reworking of some old strategies...

U/R
+ Bloodmoons
+ Mox Monkey
+ Fire/Ice
+ Psionic Blasts

Null Rods are clutch...  3 is the perfect number imo.   Maybe a couple of maindeck mox monkeys though?   and I know that Fish relies heavily on manlands, but perhaps there is a better option now days...   Maybe some maindeck bloodmoons...   What hurts more, a land doing 2 every round, or completely shutting down there mana base?

I think that Fish in its current form is definatly lacking in the meta as a whole, and its high time someone revamp fish for the current meta.

My friend ran a fish build at GenCon, although he didn't run it with a ton of success, it did have some interesting tech.

Creatures
-----------------
4 - Lord of Atlantis
4 - Rootwater Thief
4 - Cloud of Faieries
2 - Gorilla Shaman
2 - Tidal Warriors


Control Elements
-----------------
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
2 Psionic Blast
3 Fire/Ice
2 Null Rod
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity


Mana Sources
------------------
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faeirie Conclave
3 Fetch Land


Sideboard
-------------------
3 Energy Flux
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Extract
2 Razorfin Hunter



Now you'll notice real quick that he was 100% unpowered...  although I would guess that a great deal of possible Fish players most likely lack all the power cards...   I personnaly think his U/R version was a step in the right direction.   It wasn't quite perfect by any means, but I think it was heading that way...

Fish's biggest problem seems to be in the form of other creatures...  Perhaps a maindeck Control Magic or two, although I hate to see Fish limit itself so by putting in a card that is only (REALLY) usefull against a handfull of decks, yet limited against so many others in the field.

- Grendal

[Fever]

Some of the opinions stated in your post would lead me to believe you have never played Fish. For instance, Sligh and Suicide are not all that tough-of course either deck is capable of taking a match here and there, but they are still considered to be good matchups by Fish players. What other aggro decks are left? TNT is the main one, but its popularity is dropping rapidly as most players find a better home for their Workshops (ie: Stax).

Fish is an aggro-control deck, and as such, combo is meant to be one its better matchups. Newer breeds of combo packing disruption and countering ability such as RectorTrix and Tendrils are harder to deal with, but they remain winnable, especially with intelligent sideboarding. I dont see how a deck packing 4 FoW, 3-4 MisD, and 3-4 Null Rod is inherently week against combo.

I dont want to critique your friend's decklist too much, but i will say a few words about it. Tidal Warrior is absolutely horrid, i truly cannot imagine the thought-process which lead him to choose the Warrior over several other superior choices. Gorilla Shaman also seems highly questionable given the fact that the deck also packs Null Rod. The Rod performs the same function, but is colorless and invulnerable to spot-removal, this makes it a much better choice.

[bebe]

Wow. What a mess this thread has turned into.

1) As one of the two originators of fish (Phantom perfected the mjy very rough prototype), I can say we began playing it when Sui and Sligh were everywhere. We were looking for a deck that beat them both but could also compete with Keeper. MisDs were great tech against Sligh and really this is not a tough match up. You have so much more tempo then Sligh. Sui we used Psi Blasts and Legacy Allures from the side and generally hosed them as they were playing Negators, Hymns and Sinks against a deck full of Psi Blasts, MisDs and Allures.

2) I'm sorry I brought up the Stifle/Extract comment now. Read the post. I recommend Stifles unless you have a combo heavy environment in which case - despite the nay sayers - Extracts out the side combined with Thieves are some bad.

3) Fish not competitive in today's meta? Please. I still see Fish top fouring everywhere that it is played by experienced - read that carefully - players.

4) No. Coastal Piracy is not a bomb. Yes, it is expensive. When it resolves you generally win. One copy is nice as is one Future Sight in other decks. It is not necessary for the win but it can sure help.

5) Fever is right on the money about your friend's deck. BTW, Null rods are so good these days I'm trying to fit two of them into my EBA (it's budget and does not use Moxen). Any deck that comfortably support them should consider them.

[Grendal]

I don't think his deck is any where near 100% what it could be, but I think a red splash is a good thing.

Tidal Warrior was just a (thing to try), wasn't any better or any worse than Manta Rider is.

SUI and Sligh are matches that can be won yes, but any really well built aggro deck can give fish trouble.   Combo in days of old was something Fish could handle...   however the Combo that showed up at GenCon imo would be almost entirely to fast for Fish to handle.

Staks with an early tangle wire can handle Fish

Tendrils can just (go off) not much any deck can do about that except battle there mana in the early game.

Dragon is amazingly fast, and is a 2 card combo to infinite mana.  Squee can also be an amazing chump blocker that just won't go away.

Combo is just hella fast now days...  I do love where you guys are going with Fish though...   and i'm dieing to see where it ends up...

- Gren

[Fever]

Quote (Grendal @ Aug. 13 2003,10:33)I don't think his deck is any where near 100% what it could be, but I think a red splash is a good thing.

1) Tidal Warrior was just a (thing to try), wasn't any better or any worse than Manta Rider is.

2) SUI and Sligh are matches that can be won yes, but any really well built aggro deck can give fish trouble.   Combo in days of old was something Fish could handle...   however the Combo that showed up at GenCon imo would be almost entirely to fast for Fish to handle.

3) Staks with an early tangle wire can handle Fish

4) Tendrils can just (go off) not much any deck can do about that except battle there mana in the early game.

5) Dragon is amazingly fast, and is a 2 card combo to infinite mana.  Squee can also be an amazing chump blocker that just won't go away.

Combo is just hella fast now days...  I do love where you guys are going with Fish though...   and i'm dieing to see where it ends up...

- Gren

I have edited your quote to include numbers, so that its easier for me to respond point-by-point.

1) Tidal Warrior is MUCH worse than Manta Riders, really. The Warrior has a totally useless ability, whereas the Riders can gain flying-this is huge in a deck with Curiosity.

2) Sui and Sligh can be won... easily. Again, it may look close on paper, but you need to test it for yourself to truly understand. Its like the old Sligh vs Stompy debate, where the majority(including me, at first) thought that Sligh would win handily.

3) First, i never said Stax was an easy matchup, in fact its not. However, Stax has the ability to cripple just about every deck with a strong opening, and Fish is no exception.

4) Exactly, which is why we are packing 5 Strips and 4 Null Rods, to try to slow down these new combo decks. If you admit that every deck has problems with them, how is this a bad commentary on Fish?

5) Dragon placed well at the Championships, but lets not overrated, ok? The fact is, Richard is an exceptional player with intimate knowledge of the deck and its workings, in fact i dont think anyone else would have gone as far with the deck. Also, while they may be very consistent, the new Dragon builds are not nearly as fast as they used to be.