WELDER MUD

[Jacob Orlove]

Well, Null Brooch has sealed every game I've won thus far vs sligh, in addition to being decent to great versus pretty much everything else. Without it, I just don't feel safe about trying to set up a hard lock long enough to draw a Karn. You're right that those feelings may stem from my experiences playing control decks in the past, though.

However, as long as I'm not in Europe, I'm not overly concerned about combo. I can't see running Caps MD. I guess I could try out trikes, but those seem like a metagame choice too. In the absence of a strong metagame impetus to run Cap, wOrb, or Trike, I'm going to stick with the Brooch.

[David Hernandez]

Ok, after playing this deck (in a small tourney) and going 2-1, i have a couple of suggestions.  First off, i used Zhalfirin's list (the one he used at C&J's dated Aug. 22 and located here: http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;t=9795 )

first: the Masticores in the Sideboard should be removed.  It's impossible to pay the upkeep cost when you dump your hand to skullcaps every turn.  As skullcaps are your only means of drawing cards, they never come out and there is no synergy at all.

second: it was my experience that the Powder Kegs are not the best choice in this deck.  Definitely not in the main, and probably not even in the sideboard.

i suggest that the 3 Kegs be removed, and that they be replaced with the following:

a 3rd Winter Orb.  This card was a house and i found myself wishing i had a 3rd one in the deck.

...and...

2 Viashino Heretics.  This would wreck whole strategies.  The only games i lost were to Null Rods.

I suggest that the Masticores in the side be replaced with a 3rd Viashino Heretic and a 2nd Serrated Arrows.

SB Jesters Caps were awesome, as usual. 3 in the sb is a good number. 4 REB seemed right.  Null Brooch x 2 works well. 3 Rack and Ruin seemed right.

My matches were against Powered Fish (sideboard had Null Rods), Powered B/g Void (with Deeds main, and Withered Wretches main and sb), and White Lightning (with sb Null Rods--This is the deck that beat me and won the tournament).

Petrified Field rocks (i recurred a Strip Mine a couple of times).

WelderMUD runs well.  Its very strong, though i think its biggest advantage over Stax is that it is less vulnerable to Wastelands.  Grafted Skullcaps can bite you in the butt at times, especially when you have a Sphere and a Winter Orb on the table.

also, remember that the most current ruling is that the Winter Orb ceases to function if it becomes tapped.

thats my 0.02 cents.

dave.\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

At this point, I think most people are replacing the kegs and something with 4x Chalice of the Void. It just wins you games all over the place. If you get it out quickly, it'll stop Null Rods altogether, and for 0 and 1, you hose combo and sligh, respectively. People have already discussed just how good this card is in the various Mirrodin threads, so I only have a few issues to bring up:

What is the fourth card you cut? I've been running the maindeck Brooches, so I cut both of them and two kegs for 4x Chalice (since Chalice is Brooch, only more so). For people with Winter Orbs, what would you drop for Chalice #4?

The last keg seems quite random in a deck with no tutoring, though. I really want to cut it for something. Perhaps a third City of Traitors/Tolarian Academy (depending on which one you aren't already running)? More explosive mana is key against Keeper and Tog, which are the only two decks that aren't totally hosed by Chalice. Then again, Winter Orb is also great against those decks.

[David Hernandez]

Since Chalice is not legal yet, i was just bringing up what i would do now.  4 x Chalice in the main is correct, imo.

i found that i could cut a Karn and still win games, so you might test that.  26 mana is light as far as i believe---i am used to running 28 in Stax. So, we cant cut anything from the mana base.

since the rest of the deck is basically required, the only cards i can see cutting are the 3 kegs and 1 Karn.  That still gives you 2 Winter Orbs (the minimum i would run).  

i am finding that the Orbs are too important to cut.  You could cut one brooch (and continue to run a single one)--i think that the Brooch is more powerful alone than the Keg (though others might disagree).  Both options are kind of random.   From your build, perhaps you could cut a Karn, the Orbs, and the Kegs, and run the 2 Brooches with 4 x Chalice.

--Dave.\n\n

[Saucemaster]

David, that sounds exactly like what I was saying very early along in the development of the MeanDeck list.  I loved the Orbs to death, and I didn't much like the Kegs.  But both the C&J's people and the MeanDeck people (including myself) found that the more they played the deck (and the wider the variety of decks we tested against), the more the Kegs were necessary and the less spectacular the Orbs seemed.  If I were personally to cut anything from the list right now, it would probably be Orbs; I'd then probably maindeck Null Brooches or metagame hate, most likely.  That's in a metagame filled with Hulk, where the Orbs are about as good as they're going to get.  That said, the Orbs will win you games sometimes, and I understand why you like them so much.  

I'm not trying to be an ass and I'm certainly not implying that you just haven't played the deck enough yet.  I'm just interested to hear your reasoning on the Kegs, and where you're coming from on that.

The Heretics are interesting, but I'd point out that one of the biggest strengths of wMUD over Stax is that except for the Welders, everything in the deck is castable off Workshop/'Worker/Wasteland/etc.  And the Welders, of course, only cost one mana.  One of Stax's biggest holes is that it has multiple spells that cost 3 mana that cannot be cast off Workshop.  Now, this doesn't always hurt Stax, but it certainly can and will at times, and that's one of the major sources of wMUD's increased consistency.  Heretics not only cost 3 non-Workshop mana to cast, but they also require two non-Workshop mana to activate, which makes them juicy, but slow.  Thoughts?

[Zherbus]

Quote  I'm just interested to hear your reasoning on the Kegs, and where you're coming from on that.

I think alot of it comes from your experience in regards to what decks you've faced. For instance against Keeper and Sligh, the Keg can really pull through at times. Meanwhile, something like Long.dec is affected very little by keg.

[David Hernandez]

it may be playstyle and metagame dependent, but i find that the kegs (while very strong) are lacking in some areas.  Many of the decks in our area run 4 Null Rods (sligh, sui, fish, and in some cases Hulk) either maindecked or sideboarded.  Kegs just die to that while the weenie hordes come rolling over.

Kegs also have a tendency to hurt yourself. For 0, eat your own moxes and mana crypt. For 1 eat your welders, sol ring, and mana vault. For 2, eat some more stuff (spheres/orbs).   For 3, blow your tanglewires and metalworkers. For 4, eat your deck.  Against certain decks (fish/sligh/sui/while lightning) i find that i am hurting myself as much or more than the opponent.  Then the Null Rod hits, and important stuff becomes useless.

i think that Heretics can work.  If you are willing to hold 2 open for Null Brooch, you can do it for Heretic (yes, i know it requires 1R, but i have been seeing that there is usually Red Mana available).  They might require going up to 27 mana, with an additional mountain added to the deck.  I might be happier with the extra mana anyway, as i found the deck to be a little light (not much, but i did notice a difference compared to Stax [where i run 28 sources]).

the ability to hose Null Rods, the mirror match, Stax, TnT, and others, while hosing the opponents mana sources, dealing damage, and blocking weenies make the Heretic very strong imo.

maindeck Null Brooch is a good idea.  i was happy to see them every time i boarded them in.  the only real downside i find is when they come up early (dont want to discard my hand) or when i dont have enough mana to keep 2 open AND cast stuff.

i like to play prison decks, so Orbs are a mainstay for me.  i like them and i am more accustomed to playing around them than my opponents usually are.  

i agree with Zherbus that the Kegs can pull you through at times.  Still, i think that another disruptive card that can offer a kill condition while protecting you against hosers (like Null Rod and opposing Kegs) is worth testing.  So far, i think Heretics fit that bill best.

--dave.\n\n

[Fishhead]

Quote But both the C&J's people and the MeanDeck people (including myself) found that the more they played the deck (and the wider the variety of decks we tested against), the more the Kegs were necessary and the less spectacular the Orbs seemed.

I always liked the Orbs so it wasn't completely unanimous.  Just for the record.    

I'm sure its been gone through somewhere else in this thread, but when my land makes 3 mana and my opponents land makes 1 then the Orb is no longer symmetrical.  Welder Mud is generally two turns from hardcasting anything in the deck under Orb as long as there is a Workshop available.  

Anyway, I do think that its a metagame call; Orb is not so good against Combo so if you are expecting lots of Long.dec then you want to make the switch.

[David Hernandez]

@Fishhead:  I agree with your points.  Winter Orb has been a favorite of mine since...well, forever.  I used to play a G/W Artifact Prison with Titania's Song, Kismet, Winter Orb, Serrated Arrows, and Icy Manipulators.  Lock them down, animate your artifacts, and swing for the kill.

I'm considering a mono-green version of "Stax" that does something like that, but so far Stax and wMUD are better.

--Dave

[Saucemaster]

Quote I always liked the Orbs so it wasn't completely unanimous.  Just for the record.  

Well I *loved* the Orbs ever since the first time Zhalfirin whipped out mono-brown MUD and Wire/Orb locked me for four turns playing Hulk.  So there.    But seriously, yes, the Orbs *are* great, but I think that with varied and thorough testing they begin to shine less brightly than they do when you first Orb/Wire someone, and you start to notice that Kegs are stronger than they originally appear.  Or, that was my experience.  But I certainly don't mean to give the impression that Orbs are bad--I love the little guys.

[jntemp777]

Quote (Saucemaster @ Sep. 23 2003,20:37)and you start to notice that Kegs are stronger than they originally appear.  Or, that was my experience.  But I certainly don't mean to give the impression that Orbs are bad--I love the little guys.

I really miss the orbs too, but I took em out in favor of Chalices.  I kept Kegs MD too because they are stronger than they originally appear.  

Goblin Charbelchers vs the Triskelions anyone?  I tested em out this weekend at Frank&Sons and found them to be fun, but not reliable.  You'll never forget the times that you dealt 18+ damage and won, but I absolutely hate it when you just need to deal 4+ damage to some target and you only deal 0-1.  

Damn stupid ass goblins.  We're always trying to save money on production costs and labour and now finally we're letting goblins make these things.  I want a German engineered Charbelcher.  Effectively, and Efficiently deal 20+ damage upon activation.