Perfecting Long's Burning Desire

[theorigamist]

I have never had problems getting UUU for Future Sight.  In fact, I've gotten it out turn 1 or 2 several times.

My maindeck is two cards off yours, Smmenen.  In your open slot, I've still got Future Sight.  I also dropped Mox Diamond for Fastbond.  Mox Diamond was dead so much for me, since you don't have many lands.  Also, you can't really rely on having more than 1 or 2 lands in your opening hand, which you'll then want to play.  Fastbond, on the other hand, is really effective with Future Sight.  I would still like to find something better than Fastbond, but I think Fastbond is better than Diamond.

Also, considering the ass load of mana acceleration in this deck, wouldn't a sideboard Mind Twist be good in the control matchup?  And speaking of the sideboard, wouldn't Recoup be better than Regrowth, if a little more restrictive?

Edited some typos and clarified some stuff.

Edit 2: Bah, I hate thinking of more stuff right after I post.  For the sideboard, would a Turbulent Dreams be enough to combat hate cards?\n\n

[Smmenen]

About Mox Diamond.  I was thinking about adding it into my "random test slot."  I understand the reasons why VGB suggested we cut it.  Let's walk through some of the arguments and counter-arguments.  

The first argument against it is the obvious fact that this deck only has 11 Land.  The fact that this deck has an extreme emphasis on turns one and two suggests that it deck really doesn't want a dead card in the opening hand.  

* However, I am not sure that I can find a better card to fit the spot.  I don't really want to spend my turn one playing Fastbond, as I'd rather play a Brainstorm or Duress.  

* Another argument for it is that it isn't in the deck for the opening hand - but it's there, as in stax, for after you play a draw7.  This argues for it rather powerfully as this deck really likes to play draw7s and it helps accelerate the deck in those first few critical turns.  

*However, the counterargument to that is that if you have cast a draw7, you might not need the Mox Diamond anyway because you should have enough accelleration anyway.  

But, in lack of another alternative card to fit my "random test slow," I'll probably juust use Mox Diamond.

One other question: If you have just cast a draw 7 with no mana up besides a LED, which color mana do you sac the LED for, Black or Blue?

Stephen Menendian

[jdl]

Quote Also, considering the ass load of mana acceleration in this deck, wouldn't a sideboard Mind Twist be good in the control matchup?

Wouldn't Mind Twist have really bad synergy with all the draw-7's in the deck?

[theorigamist]

@Smmenen:  I suppose I've had a better time with Fastbond because I still have Future Sight.  I wouldn't use Fastbond alone, because the acceleration is really minimal without FS to go along with it.

Edit: Now that I've got a little more time, I can finish arguing for Fastbond.  Mox Diamond is comparable to a one-shot Fastbond.  You lose 1 card to essentially play another land.  If you use Fastbond, then that is the one card, and it lets you play out another land.  The slight difference is that with Diamond you then have 2 mana, and with Fastbond you have only 1.  The benefit of Fastbond, however, is that you can use it several times.  So after draw7s, or with Future Sight, or when you have a huge hand full of land that you otherwise couldn't use because you've played a land already, Fastbond lets you use it.  Fastbond helps smooth your mana by letting you play several Cities of Mines.  Also, I hate using a draw7 only to find my new hand clogged with lands.  Fastbond thins out the deck so that doesn't happen as much, whereas Diamond doesn't.  Most importantly, Fastbond is almost never dead.  Even if you don't have a land in your hand, you can play the Fastbond so that, in the future, or after a draw7, or while your'e going off, you'll have the Fastbond just in case.  Mox Diamond is too often dead for me, with no lands in hand.  And even after a draw7, it is still only 1 more mana.  In short, Fastbond is more acceleration on its own, and works for longer than the one-time Mox Diamond.

Quote One other question: If you have just cast a draw 7 with no mana up besides a LED, which color mana do you sac the LED for, Black or Blue?

If you've got a Chromatic Sphere out, go for UUU, and you can make 1 B if you need to Ritual.  If you've got no Sphere, go for BBB.  If you draw into artifact mana, you have the same chance of getting black or blue.  So the swing vote is whether or not you can cast a Dark Ritual if you draw it.

Quote Wouldn't Mind Twist have really bad synergy with all the draw-7's in the deck?

If you Twisted then used a draw7 right away, yes, it would.  But play intelligently and it shouldn't.  Like, if you draw7, then Wish for Twist and use it, you can just do whatever you want.\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote One other question: If you have just cast a draw 7 with no mana up besides a LED, which color mana do you sac the LED for, Black or Blue?

theorigamist nailed this one on the head - I almost always go for UUU, unless my graveyard has a lot more blue than black (doesn't apply to Timetwister, of course).  You almost always want UUU for Brainstorms and such.

There are 12 blue cards in my deck, and 11 black ones - and blue is completely devoted to draw and tutoring, whereas black has 4 slots devoted to mana (Dark Ritual).\n\n

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

For the anti-Pillar and Arcane Lab spot, I suggest a Tranquility in the SB. It's a sorcery and it kills all the hate they might already have on the board at once. Getting the single green shouldn't be much of a problem.
/edit: For those playing Fetchland-base including a Tropical Island: Reverent Silence might be better for you.

For Mox D, I really like it in the deck. After casting Bargain or Draw7s, you often need another colored mana to go off. That's much to good for me to pass up. I usually even drop it over the first land in my turn, if I can, as that allows me to still drop Academy later after I cast my carddraw.\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

@Mon

Again, theorigamist touched on the main reason I don't run Mox Diamond - my build has Fastbond.  Fastbond usually draws out a counter painlessly, whereas a countered Diamond usually sets you back severely.

The main reasons I run Fastbond are:

1) Lets you play all the lands out of your deck, which has synergy with Timetwister (new hand is all business spells), Mind's Desire (less chances of revealing land), and of course Bargain/Future Sight.

2) Like I mention above, usually draws out a counter at the cost of a Gemstone Mine counter or popped Chromatic Sphere.

3) Win-now card.  When going off, provides way much more mana than Diamond, and also counts as a spell.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Those Arguments for using Fastbond over Diamond are really good. The only problems I see are bad Synergie with Bargain (I usually have to Bargain down to 4 or 5 to finally kill), but nobody really forces you to play your lands and, more important, it costing G instead of 0.
I never tested FB, though, and I definitly don't play the deck as often as you do. Because of this (and Xantid Swarm being good for the Minden Crew despite costing G) I suppose you're probably right and Fastbond is better than Mox D.\n\n

[Smmenen]

My problem with Fastbond, as I have stated earlier, is that it isn't a win now card.  It is a card that you use to set yourself up on turn one.  If you aren't winning on turn one, this decks wants to set itself up for a turn two win, which means Duress/Brainstorm is preferrable to a conditional card that doesn't even function unless you have another land in hand - a chance that decreases becuase of the mere fact that you have played a spell that doesn't necesesarily set you up: i.e. Duress/Brainstorm.

Steve

[VideoGameBoy]

@Smmenen

Again, the difference is in the details.  You have 1 crucial difference that I don't; a maindecked win condition.  My kill is in the side, thus I can't factor in the "random win" scenario, and often need the additional mana provided by Fastbond to solidify my combo turn, which has to be extended until I can safely fetch Tendrils with Burning Wish.  By playing Tendrils maindeck, you allow for the chance of an earlier win, at the cost of a maindeck slot that is dead unless you have played 9+ spells previously.

In any case, I have already stated that in an optimal build I would eschew Fastbond for Hunting Pack, simply because it gets around hate and provides random wins, and requires much less Storm copies than Tendrils to be lethal.  As it currently stands, I built my deck for maximum speed and consistency in a meta devoid of Meddling Mage.

[MoreFling]

I played Smmenen's list today in testing, and in roughly 30 games, I had 5 turn1 kills, 13 turn2 kills, 4 turn3 kills, and 4 turnX kills. The other 4 games were lost. I played against the old rector trix (which means 4 duress 4 therapy 4fow, so heavy disruption) and against Ru Goblin Sligh (which can easily goldfish a turn3 kill!). I lost 1 against rector, 3 against sligh, and overall, was happy with the performance, although I must admit I had insane draws, and lucky topdecks.

However, what I noticed that I often missed an extra land to go off, which means I had to go through a lot of trouble and depend on my topdecking to set myself up for a combo-kill. Maybe a 12th land should be put in there somewhere?

[theorigamist]

MoreFling, with all the draw7s and such, did you still have trouble finding another land?  Or did you have trouble playing it (read: wouldn't Fastbond be a logical addition to this deck?)?

Smmenen, you're forgetting two things about Fastbond:

1) You seem to think you have to play it on your first turn to be effective.  Similar to the way Mox Diamond doesn't have to come out turn 1, Fastbond can also be played later on.

2) If you have 2 lands and Mox Diamond in your opening hand, you're going to play a land, then discard the other for Diamond.  Then you can still do your Duress/Brainstorm to set up for a possible turn 2 win.  If you have land, land, Fastbond in the opening hand, you can go land, Fastbond, land, and still play the Duress/Brainstorm.  So you set up either way.  If you only had one land, and thus Fastbond takes up your entire first turn, I could see your point, sort of.  But if I only had 1 land and Diamond, I'd play the land, not the Diamond.  Similarly, if you have 1 land and Fastbond (and something you need to do with that 1 land, like Duress/Brainstorm) then you should ignore the Fastbond for the time being.  What you're suggesting by your comments is that having Fastbond in the opening hand pressures you into playing it, which I disagree with.  

I also think having 1 land and Mox Diamond is worse than having 1 land and Fastbond.  With Diamond, you either play the land, then have a dead card that you can't cast, or you play the Diamond and pitch your only land.  If that were a Fastbond, you play the land and then play the Fastbond if it's the best thing to do, or you hold the Fastbond and play it when you need it.  Regardless, it doesn't become dead.  And if you have either Fastbond or Mox Diamond with more than 1 land in your opening hand, then Fastbond is clearly superior in just about every situation.

I'd also like to say that Fastbond can definitely be a win now card.  What I've noticed about the deck in the games I've played is that you struggle to float a few mana early on that will then cast artifact mana, Dark Rituals, draw7s, etc. that lead to a lot more mana.  Once you have a few mana to start with, you can go off fairly easily, and Fastbond, much more so than Mox Diamond, gives you an extra mana or two in the early turns in which you need it.

[Smmenen]

Quote (MoreFling @ Aug. 25 2003,09:00)I played Smmenen's list today in testing, and in roughly 30 games, I had 5 turn1 kills, 13 turn2 kills, 4 turn3 kills, and 4 turnX kills. The other 4 games were lost. I played against the old rector trix (which means 4 duress 4 therapy 4fow, so heavy disruption) and against Ru Goblin Sligh (which can easily goldfish a turn3 kill!). I lost 1 against rector, 3 against sligh, and overall, was happy with the performance, although I must admit I had insane draws, and lucky topdecks.

However, what I noticed that I often missed an extra land to go off, which means I had to go through a lot of trouble and depend on my topdecking to set myself up for a combo-kill. Maybe a 12th land should be put in there somewhere?

That sounds exactly how my games go except I never feel like I needed an extra land.  Like I said, it's not inconsistent.

Steve\n\n

[MoreFling]

Quote (theorigamist @ Aug. 25 2003,22:03)MoreFling, with all the draw7s and such, did you still have trouble finding another land?  Or did you have trouble playing it

Like I said, the problem I have is that some games it gets tough because I'm missing one land, which is why I wondered about adding a 12th in the test slot, see how it goes.

Also, Fastbond isn't a logical addition to this deck. When going off, likely, you are casting Rituals and Leds all over the place already, so then your mana problems should've been solved. And since you're running every cheap artifact mana producer available, why would you need fastbond? i'd rather have a card that
a) wins
or
b) sets me up to win

I don't see fastbond doing a), and I don't see it being very good/effective at doing b).\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote Also, Fastbond isn't a logical addition to this deck. When going off, likely, you are casting Rituals and Leds all over the place already, so then your mana problems should've been solved. And since you're running every cheap artifact mana producer available, why would you need fastbond? i'd rather have a card that
a) wins
or
b) sets me up to win

I don't see fastbond doing a), and I don't see it being very good/effective at doing b).

I play 12 lands, and could probably go down to 11, except that many times I have been caught by a stray Wasteland, and that is pretty harsh for a deck that loses 1/6 of it's total lands every time you use a fetch.  With 12 lands, I am a lot less prone to mana denial, and it seems to marginally improve my mulligan infrequency.

As for the Fastbond debate, I can't really think of any more benefits of running it that haven't already been posted.  I guess I can reiterate, with maybe a few new points:

1) Mana denial becomes moot with a resolved draw seven and a Fastbond in play, since you will usually end up with 3-4 lands on the table.

2) Yes, the deck does pack half mana - which once it's in play doesn't end up a dead draw/reveal.  I cast Timetwister frequently, and Time Spiral occasionally, and it is definitely a bonus keeping lands out of your hand and deck.

3) Fastbond is generally regarded as a must-counter, as it is often an integral component to many combo decks.  Thus it can be used to bait your opponent.

4) There are the obvious cards it is synergistic with, such as Future Sight, Yawgmoth's Will, and Mind's Desire - but it also interacts favorably with Yawgmoth's Bargain and draw sevens (drawn lands give you mana immediately to play spells).  Not to mention that Frantic Search and Time Spiral become much more potent.

5) Fastbond helps gain land-based mana quickly, which is a boon to Storm combo (keeps the spells coming).

6) Drawing Academy with Fastbond in play during a turn you have already played a land can often break the game in half.

Of course when you are "going off", mana often isn't an issue - but Fastbond helps you get there, and consistently.  Lands are uncounterable, thankfully.\n\n

[MoreFling]

In response to VGB:

1)I suppose that's true, but when you're casting draw-7's, aren't you already winning?

2)I noticed that often I don't even need the Spiral, and the twister only half the times I draw it. I'm really happy with the maindeck tendrils, which has given me the win numerous amounts of time already.

3)It sort of depends. I think a smart opponent who knows what you are trying to do might just let fastbond slip, and wait for the more important spells to kick in.

4)I don't pack Future Sight, and I'm not missing it.

5)I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.

6)That is very very true. I've come up with bargains and draw7's where I wished I hadn't played a land yet. However, I'm not sure how you consistently get fastbond into play, but in theory it shouldn't happen more consistently than getting a bargain into play. And where bargain just wins, fastbond doesn't even do something by itself.

I suppose, if you run future sight, running fastbond makes a lot more sense. Right now, I'm getting by just fine without it.

[Smmenen]

That's because I tested for nearly two weeks and cut future Sight.  I never wanted to invest the mana in using it.  I think even with Fastbond, it is too conditional because you can't be assured of having the Fastbond in play with FS.

I find it amusing that Rudy has turned onto the deck, once again, after lambasting it - just like he did with hulk.  Glad he likes my list though.

Stephen Menendian

[Thug]

I don't see any reason the play Fastbond in the deck...

It has too many disadvantegous, to name a few:

- Not all of your lands produce green mana
- It cost you a card and a green mana, so you have to play at least 2 aditional lands to make this go even in terms of mana and cards.
- If your opponent is smart he will nt counter this but the draw spell that will give you the extra cards
- You only run 11 (some people 12) lands and thus will need to resolve drawspells to make this worth anything

If I had to choose between Mox Diamond and Fastbond I would most certainly go for Mox Diamond, it shares more energy with the deck.

But after all I don't think either one is needed in the deck (And yes, I did test this deck, this is not theory)

Koen

[VideoGameBoy]

@Smmenen

Have you tried the following cards in your open slot?

1) Frantic Search
2) Helm of Awakening

Just for a final note about Fastbond, if you notice my build from the first page, I cut 2 Duress slots for Fastbond/Sight.  That means game 1 Duress usually crops up after some intial digging and drawing, and I have a higher threat density.  It also makes it easy to sideboard, since obviously the cards I can cut are as follows (in this order):

1) Fastbond
2) Helm of Awakening
3) Future Sight
4) Frantic Search

I have never been a fan of Mana Vault in the deck; this deck craves colored mana far more than colorless.  A land would be far better in this slot.

I also feel that Fetch+Dual lands is superior to running Cities of Brass, since thinning and shuffle effects are so key to getting optimal usage from Brainstorm and other draw.  I have never had issues with mana using the following base:

3 x Gemstone Mine
2 x Underground Sea
4 x Fetch
1 x Badlands
1 x Volcanic Island
1 x Tolarian Academy

[erik]

I think their inclusion depends a lot on the meta you expect. Since both of them are great after a draw7 but mediocre before, I'd have to be pretty sure that 4 duress will be enough to let me resolve my draw on a regular basis. In a control meta those slots are much better off as Xantid swarms (which are amazing) in my opinion. Going off before your opponent has countermana pretty much means you have to both win the coinflip and get a first turn spell that takes out  FoW, with Swarms that's 7-8 spells instead of four. Swarms are to this deck what Cabal therapy is to rector.

So to sum it up: If you expect fast aggro play FB, Diamond and everything else that lets you goldfish faster. Against control/decks with Fow play Swarms. On a sidenote don't ever, ever cut consult; it's on par with demonic in this deck and should be played in any combo deck that uses wishes.

Oh, and Smmenen, I think everyone is having fun with this deck while they can. It shouldn't take very long before LED is restricted to be honest...

[MoreFling]

Quote (Smmenen @ Aug. 26 2003,15:56)I find it amusing that Rudy has turned onto the deck, once again, after lambasting it - just like he did with hulk.  Glad he likes my list though.

I'm not "turning" to the deck. I'm just giving it a go, and giving my teammates a good deck to test against for upcoming tournaments, since it will certainly appear enough in the region that if you hit the higher tables, you are going to run into it.
You convinced me your list posted some posts back is the best possible, so I put that one together, and I'm doing pretty well with it. I must admit I had some amazingly lucky draws, but I suppose that's the nature of the deck.
Also, I didn't lambast it in the first place. I just think it's a vulnerable deck, that's all.

Tomorrow, I'm gonna try playing without Duress, and with Xantid Swarm solely. Seeing as the deck is probably the fastest combo deck anyway, I might as well go for that route. I'll report back tomorrow evening with my findings.

[Smmenen]

@VGB:

Yes, Helm is in my slot right now based upon your suggestion some posts back.  Nothing conclusive yet though.  I plan on testing Fastbond eventually.

Steve

[theorigamist]

To clarify, I'm not trying to say that Fastbond is the best choice for the deck.  I'm just saying that it's a better choice than Mox Diamond by far if you also play Future Sight, and that FB is better than Diamond a little without FS anyway.

That said, Smmenen, when you test FB, you should put Future Sight back in.  Or maybe test FB alone and with Future Sight, but it's obviously at its best with Future Sight.

[VideoGameBoy]

I'd like to give everybody a head's up on another Burning Academy variant that has been utterly neglected - Brenn Oosterbaan in fact piloted a build to fifth at Dulmen, and I had posted a list a long time ago on the Tendrils Primer thread.

Here is a slightly more refined version:

//NAME: Burning Rectal Agony
// CREATOR: V.G.B.
// CREATED: 7/14/2003 2:43:00 PM
// FORMAT: Classic
// Lands - 13
1 Badlands
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
// Creatures - 4
4 Academy Rector
// Enchantments - 2
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
// Spells - 25
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
// Artifacts - 16
2 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Phyrexian Negator
SB: 1 Balance
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Mind Twist
SB: 1 Replenish
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Time Spiral
SB: 1 Vindicate
SB: 1 Windfall
SB: 1 Necromancy
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 1 Form of the Dragon
SB: 1 The Abyss

Thoughts?\n\n

[MoreFling]

Rector is not the way to go right now. There is hate and more hate everywhere to be found.

[Kaervek]

I don't have the time at the moment to read the entire thread (I will do this tonight, so if appropriate, I will delete this post), but I have some questions after playing with Smmenen's current build for a bit.

1. Tinker can be really decent MD, but I think I'd rather use a Frantic Search in that slot as it provides more mana with Academy and ups your Tendrils count while sifting for business spells. Why not move Tinker to the SB where it's still wishable?

2. Perhaps this is a lame suggestion, but is it viable to put a Hurkyl's Recall MB? That way you:
- really (really) up your Tendrils count by replaying Moxen etc. while generating additional (perhaps unneeded?) amounts of mana.
- have a MD answer against Null Rod (which I see more and more of MD in hate decks).

3. Why is this thread not in the Extreme vintage forum? Other than the occasional flame, it seems worthy of that.\n\n

[erik]

1) Tinker should be SB:ed just like you said, acting as a wishable draw7 along with time spiral. Frantic search should be in the deck in a meta where going off fast is top priority (along with mox diamond and fastbond), but is probably better off as a swarm against control.

2) I can see hyrkull's being good, but most of the mana actually comes from lotuses and rituals. The moxen are just good storm uppers And as always, what to cut? If null rods become too much of a bitch I guess it's the first answer to try though...

[Zherbus]

Moved

[Thug]

Quote Just for a final note about Fastbond, if you notice my build from the first page, I cut 2 Duress slots for Fastbond/Sight.  That means game 1 Duress usually crops up after some intial digging and drawing, and I have a higher threat density.  

So you give away some of your control matchup to not roll over aggro with one bulldoser but with two???
Cutting duresses sure doesn't give you a higher threat density against control, Duress is a threat against them, Fastbond is not

Quote
It also makes it easy to sideboard, since obviously the cards I can cut are as follows (in this order):

Yeah adding Mountain Goat to this deck would also make it easier to sideboard...

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Thug @ Aug. 27 2003,10:43)

Quote Just for a final note about Fastbond, if you notice my build from the first page, I cut 2 Duress slots for Fastbond/Sight.  That means game 1 Duress usually crops up after some intial digging and drawing, and I have a higher threat density.  

So you give away some of your control matchup to not roll over aggro with one bulldoser but with two???
Cutting duresses sure doesn't give you a higher threat density against control, Duress is a threat against them, Fastbond is not

Quote
It also makes it easy to sideboard, since obviously the cards I can cut are as follows (in this order):

Yeah adding Mountain Goat to this deck would also make it easier to sideboard...

What differs about pulling out a FoW with Duress versus them casting it is that they lose a life and an additional card.

I have never had Fastbond resolve when my opponent could counter it, to my knowledge - and Fastbond resolving was usually game.

Shall I refer you to the third place deck at Berlin, Thug?  Admittedly, he plays Xantid Swarm maindeck, but I would rather not waste slots to creatures that pollute my mana base, give my opponent targets for their removal, and force me to wait for it to become active.  I have Defense Grid sideboarded if that is necessary, and Tinker to reliably fetch it.

Sideboarded Duress is also fetchable with Burning Wish, giving every single one of my tutors access to them.  Just because 2 are maindecked does not mean that only 2 are available.

With my last statement, what I mean is that if my deck (which is utterly tuned to maximum speed, resilience, and utility) is still not enough to defeat my opponent, then I am positive what cards can be relegated to the sideboard to improve the following match, since some of the cards I run are purely devoted to speed (Fastbond, Helm).  This is a very difficult deck to pull cards in and out of, and modifying so much as a single card can dramatically affect its performance.\n\n