This thread was prompted by the somewhat amusing quote in...

[Grendal]

Quote Why do you play keeper instead of hulk or shining?  Now I don't want to hear people arguing with jp about shit- I do think he's right, but this is outside of that- Why do YOU, yes YOU, still play keeper.  If you defend keeper and aren't playing it, then you are a savage liar and don't mean what you say at all.

I defend Keeper, and I most certainly still play it.   I play Keeper because it is effective...  it still wins...  and contrary to popular opinion, a properly metagamed Keeper is not obsolete by any means.

I'm actually highly hoping that this new Hulk fad takes off.   Means a heck of a lot less hate directed my way.   Heaven forbid people actually study Hulk and discover that it dies to a 3 maze of ith Sideboard :/

- Grendal

[kirdape3]

Quote WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY would you play a deck if you KNEW it wasn't the best one?  This makes no sense at all to me!  Assuming card access, which might be a bigger factor in T1, why would you play a strictly inferior deck?  In true competitive formats(defined as those that qualify you for the pro tour), strictly inferior decks simply don't get played becuase they are bad and people want to win.  Do you not want to win?  Is fun a higher cause than winning?  Do you just not care?  Do you not have the cards?  Please help me understand, becuase I sure don't.

Quote Not everybody knows or thinks that Keeper is strictly inferior.  Plenty of people still, and will, stand behind Keeper.  Also, don't forget that decks like Parfait, although bad, will always be played simply because they can be powerful, they can win, they can be fun to play, and those decks have their own following that will not give up on them, no matter how bad they get.  Regardless of the lack of logic in playing inferior decks, you know as well as anybody that it does happen.

...And, this is why most Type One players are horrible and the format is ignored.

What you just said is different (in most cases) from Pros who will play strictly inferior decks as a metagame decision; all of their decks are focused around evolved fundamental strategies such as either the Necropotence strategy (cycling decks in Block) or the Tinker strategy (Goblins in the same era).  The decks themselves may be bad, but they're built around fully modern fundamental strategies.  Type One decks in the majority still are not.

[Copperleaf]

Quote I'm actually highly hoping that this new Hulk fad takes off.   Means a heck of a lot less hate directed my way.   Heaven forbid people actually study Hulk and discover that it dies to a 3 maze of ith Sideboard :/

Thats what mana short is for.

Anyways.. my post:

Even though I am relatively new to T1, I have played up from t2, to 1.5, to 1 with some success, so I feel that I can add something useful to this discussion.  I have played a lot of tog, and a little keeper, so I will keep my comments limited to those decks.  

First, I think keeper is loosing ground because it is THE metagame deck.  And as the current metagame seems to be in a constant state of flux, keeper is unable to build properly for any given tournament.  I can remember a few months ago everything was about TnT, then Gro-a-Tog, then stax, now tog or tendrils.  I think as the metagame settles into a few standard builds of decks keeper will be able to build properly for the meta.  If tog turns out to be the deck to beat, were going to see 4x sword maindeck and enough counters to push them thru (just a hypothetical example).  Keeper seems to be built around stopping other decks, rather than just trying to win.  This is where its fundamental challenge/problem comes from.  It has to succeed in two arena’s: stopping the other player, and then winning, while the tog/combo player has one goal, ignore the opponent and just plain win.  Thats why combo/tog can do well in random metas.  They couldnt care less what the opponent is doing as long as they go of first.

Secondly, one reason Tog decks are winning because they are relatively easy to play.  The strategy behind winning with it is easy to grasp, and is relatively well known.  Tog is strong in all formats, so as type 1 gains in popularity you get more and more people wanting to play a deck they are familiar with, and know how to play.  Outside of 1.5 (trenches), theres really no keeper equivalent.  Since the tutors are pretty much banned in every other format, tutor -> silver bullet is not a really well known strategy.  

Third, tog is very proactive.  You just go thru your turns drawing and (occasionally) countering before you go off.  On the other hand keeper is reactive, it has to match the opponents plays and drop the appropriate silver bullets.  There are a lot more critical play decisions with keeper, so playing ability is more of a factor.  (Note: I’m not saying tog takes no skill).  Most of the decks that are competing with keeper are proactive as well.  Go thru a few turn of building up before you go off.  Keeper needs at least two-four turns to win after going off.  Morphling/Trenches are not super fast, so even if the deck “goes off” the opponent has a chance to gain control again.  The same is not true with tog.  Once tog hits you either kill it or it berserks and you die.  This also makes keeper harder to play.  You have to be able to react to other decks in one turn, but have to be able to keep the opponent form stopping you in four.

However, in the hands of a skilled player keeper can be a top deck.  I have yet to play my tog versus a keeper player running an optimal build and who knows how to play it correctly.  I think a lot of people try to play keeper (as I do/did) because for so long it was “the deck.”  Almost any type 2 player will name “Keeper” as the deck to beat in type 1, just because of its notoriety.  So I think one of the problems is you get a lot of people who think that just because the deck plays so many broken cards its an auto win.  So you run into a lot of keeper players who make stupid mistakes.  

So I think keeper is a good deck when it’s in the hands of good players, and a pile when it’s in the hands of inexperienced people.  If a keeper player knows his/her meta well they can be a force.  However, a newb walking into an unknown meta is just going to loose.

-Copperleaf

P.S. Im not a paragon, and relatively new to type 1, so I apologize in advance if my post is way off.

[kirdape3]

Unfortunately it is; we're not saying it's bad because of the current metagame (however true that may be), but that since it's built on an obsolete concept it is strictly inferior to any deck that is built around a more evolved strategy.

[Kerzkid11]

Well, It has been concluded that unless some awesome tech is discovered, that Keeper cannot evolve furthur without becoming bad Hulk Smash/The Shining.

So why do people keep saying it over and over?

Like eastman said, this thread is going around in circles.

[Os-Vegeta]

What JP has been saying is what I have been thinking for the past two weeks.  I find myself in agreement with much of what he and those supporting him on this thread have been saying.  It is of my opinion that Keeper is just inferior to Tog now, and to quote Matt TG from one of our games, as "instead of trying to answer everything like Keeper does, Tog just says, "screw it" and goes for the win."  A while back, Zherbus described Tog as "Keeper with green and a one-turn win condition."  Though this was true to a point, Tog really has surpassed Keeper in general, and it really has turned into a bit of a different deck now.  

Sooner or later, I felt that control would have to adopt a Necro-like strategy to keep up with the environment, and so far it seems I have been feeling correctly just by looking at The Shining, the new Combo-Keeper.  If I were to say which of the two decks (Tog or The Shining) was closest to still playing like Keeper, I would definitely say that The Shining is it.  From my experience playing against The Shining, I feel it is what Keeper should be turning into, as I see some of the strategy that Keeper utilizes.  For example, from my experience playing against it, I see The Shining having to find answers more often like Keeper does, though not to the point that Keeper has to.    

So, getting to the point, is Keeper's strategy obselete?  I would say it is, though it is due to superior decks arising and not due to it getting its ass handed to it by too many decks, as it still can perform well under a competent pilot.

[PsychoCid]

A lot of people, here, are throwing out words and comments while it doesn't seem that they fully understand what they mean.  This is especially noticable with words like 'seem.'

Keeper's strategy is both different from and identical to its successors (Tog and Shining).  If anyone should wish to recall, Keeper's roots had one goal and one goal -only- in mind:  to survive.  To not die.  Finishing off the opponent is merely an aftershock of success in such a strategy.  Now, because of improved efficiency and strategy in other forms of decks, as well as things like Mirror Universe not working to kill and Morphling being just too f'ing amazing at the time, Keeper evolved to include killing opponent in its steps to success.  It was brought to the front that once you reached a certain point of stability, the -best- way to keep yourself safe was to just off the opponent.  Couldn't just sit behind Moat or even Abyss, anymore.

So, here we are.  Other decks have improved again...much.  Solution?  Off them -faster-.  Tog does that as -well- as appreciate every card you've drawn/used (whereas Morphling just did what he did and that was that...although this used to be incredibly impressive).  Shining does that, too.

I know the thread has just run itself into a rut of people saying basically what I have, but I figured it decent to at least explain it.

Mostly I was inspired to do so by Parrot's few miswordings and seeming misunderstandings of even his own thoughts. =)\n\n

[DerangedParrot]

Well, the original point of this thread was "Keeper's strategy doesn't work anymore becuase no good decks are negated by silver bullets.  How do we fix it without becoming something other than keeper?"  People responded by saying "omg tier 2 decks can win sometimes please don't tell me I shouldn't play it or that something is wrong" and then I stepped in.  I'm not trying to say that hulk is best or whatever- I think it is, but that's beside the point- my point was just to say "If it's not best, why bother playing it?"

That's a fair question in my opinion.  I apologize for hijacking the thread.  However, I would argue that I *do* understand my own thoughts.  At least, I think I do....

On a side note, all the best decks in nearly every format can play all three deck roles- aggro, combo, and control- while keeper can't.  In onbc, I'd consider the best deck to be redwhite, in standard wake and burningwishgoblins, in extended tog, and T1 hulk and mud.  All of these decks are capable of taking all three roles depending on what is needed for a game.  Keeper can't- all it can do is try to control.  If that fails, the deck just sort of looks silly.  Coincidence?

[PsychoCid]

It's a fair question that has already been responded to.  What do you expect to hear aside from playstyle, preference, investment, and attachment?  --This was not the part for which your wording seemed odd.

No, such happenings and factoids are not a coincidence--which is precisely what I was aiming to point out and give driving reason to.

[Milton]

Keeper isn't competitive anymore.  It really hasn't been for over a year.  There was a brief period in-between the restriction of FoF and the emergence of Chapin Gro (and then TnT) when Keeper was king again.  That didn't last long, though.  At the time it was thought that Keeper could simply adapt to anything that came it's way by following the time honored traditions of card drawing, countering and silver bulleting.  But, the past nine months have shown that  Keeper really can't adapt.

The reason Keeper isn't very good anymore is because the notion of the "silver bullet" was a bit of a farse in Keeper.  Keeper never really had any silver bullets for anything other than creatures and burn, with the exception of Bloodmoon way back in the day.  Well, building an army of creatures and over-running your opponent is an obsolete strategy, so Abyss and Moat have become obsolete.  What can Keeper use as a silver bullet against Stacks?  Against Hulk?  Against Mask?  There really aren't any inexpensive, fast cards that hose these decks that, in turn, don't hose Keeper.  Null Rod is a great silver bullet, so is Planar Void.  But these cards take away from Keeper.  The new silver bullets (Null Rod, for example) are best played in aggro style decks, like Suicide or Sligh and are best called "hate".

So, Keeper can't counter as well as other decks, it can't play threats as well as other decks and it can't "silver bullet", or hate, as well as other decks.  Really, the only solid strategy that Keeper has left seems to be mana denial, in the form of Wastelands and Shaman, as a method of board control, and that will only get you so far.

[Zherbus]

Milton, you are confusing . Do I need to remind you that you included Keeper among your multiple lists of viable archtypes not but a few weeks ago regarding Gencon? Make up your mind already. Oh, and by the way Null Rod has been used for years in Suicide. I'd hardly call that anything close to new.

I skimmed mostly through this thread, rolled my eyes about a dozen times, and decided just to answer the only real question brought up on this thread: "Why do YOU play Keeper?"

First, I have no misconception about how good Keeper is. I know it can be bad. Everyone else is just overzealous about it. When was the last time someone made a pointless thread called "Is Sligh's Time Up"? Keeper can be competitive, you just have to keep changing it with the times.

I play for the sake of playing. I play because I want to be able to outplay my opponent. I don't like that my games boiled down to who got the Deep Anal first, or whether I had a turn 1 Sphere of Resistance or not. I play magic people, not go-fish. If I played Hulk, Mud, or Long.dec (let's call those the 3 best decks in the format right now) I am very positive that I would always make top 8. I am a solid player and those are solid decks, but it is not hard to make top 8 with those decks at ALL provided you can read at a 3rd grade reading level. This is type 1, LUCKY things happen.

Look at Gencon, Hulk would have likely won but it could have easily been Phantom Tape Worm instead of Carl, or SliverKing had his luck been different. This goes to show that you can predict what deck can make top 8, but not who will be playing it.

What would I gain from top 8'ing with someone elses deck? I don't think it would be a splash in the pan of fame if I won somewhere with Hulk. I likely didn't do much outplaying, so really my reports would be filled with 'he drew his first' or 'I didn't have FoW for this'. I made top 8 and possibly won my dice rolls and won the whole pot but gained no DCI points. What now shall I do with the extra half-beaten Mox? If I needed 100 bucks that badly, I'll pick up overtime.

I don't play Hulk because I'd hate to lose the mirror because an inferior player drew his Deep Anal first. I also don't like that my chances against Mud and Long.dec can go out the window without much blame going to how I handle the deck.

I don't play the Shining because that deck is worse against mana disruption than even Keeper as well as being affected by the hate meant for other decks.

I don't play Long.dec because I prefer my games not boil down to whether my opponent has a FoW in hand or not.

I really don't care how popular Keeper is and I would actually prefer it if this thread turns everyone else away from Keeper. I know how well I'll be able to do with it and I know when to play it and when not to. I don't need the type 1 communities approval for my deck choice and you shouldn't either.

That said, I have been playing Mud lately.

[routedashf]

Quote What can Keeper use as a silver bullet against Stacks?  

Stifle?  Artifact Mutation?  I have no experience against Stack though, and I've been playing Hulk instead of Keeper.. don't bite me .

Quote Against Hulk?

As a creature based strategy, the anti-creature bullets should apply here.  Red Elemental Blast, while not a silver bullet, per se, is an effective card against Hulk as both a counter or removal.  Of course, Hulk just outdraws Keeper and doesn't care.

Quote  Against Mask?

Stifle?  Swords to Plowshares?

[routedashf]

Oh, and to answer the question why do YOU still play Keeper?  I occassionally put a Keeper build together when I play some semi-casual Type 1 at FNM.  I play it for the simple reason that it is fun to play.  Well, and its fun busting out with power cards that most of the kids down there have never seen .  Next week, I'll probably bring an *old* version of Keeper, aka Weissman's The Deck, circa 1996.  I'll have to proxy the Moats though.

[Zherbus]

Milton, I would actually like you to ask those questions on my Keeper thread where I would be happy to share my thoughts with you. I won't give my replies here because this thread is for talking about how terrible Keeper is and it would just be a distraction.

[jpmeyer]

:<

And I just wanted to know if someone else had an idea of where to go from here with Keeper cause I couldn't figure it out.

[Rico Suave]

Just to start up a conversation, what do you all think would happen if FoF was unrestricted?  Would that thrust Keeper back up?

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Rico Suave @ Sep. 02 2003,11:05)Just to start up a conversation, what do you all think would happen if FoF was unrestricted?  Would that thrust Keeper back up?

More like it would make 'Tog into best.deck.evar.

[Jacob Orlove]

Does Tog even run FoF? I thought it preferred Deep Analysis, to evade counters, and for intuition synergy.

This raises the obvious question of whether Keeper should run some DAs, and possibly an intuition or two (although there's very little else you'd intuition for...you could SB it to fetch with wish, but that seems clunky).

[Rico Suave]

But Tog now doesn't even have room for 1.

I think some sort of Keeper-hybrid using Tog as kill would be what would come out of it, but that's different from the Intuition-AK Tog we currently have.

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Rico Suave @ Sep. 02 2003,11:13)But Tog now doesn't even have room for 1.

I think some sort of Keeper-hybrid using Tog as kill would be what would come out of it, but that's different from the Intuition-AK Tog we currently have.

Intuition->AK/D.A. is a de-facto substitution for Fact or Fiction.  Believe me, with unrestricted FoF, T1 'Tog will make room for 4 x FoF - mad card drawing combined with 'Tog synergy (a single FoF either pumps 'Tog anywhere from +3/+3 to +7/+7) makes for World Champion decks, I hear.

[Radagast]

The whole discussion really only hinges on one thing: how you define Keeper. If you define it as JP does to be pure control, it could easily be obsolete. If you define it as using Mana Drain to fuel huge X-spells, it certainly is. If you define it simply as a blue-based *primarily* control deck which is otherwise defined entirely by the current metagame, it lives on in Hulk and The Shining.

JP: It seems there are two main card drawing engines you can base a (control) deck off: Future Sight and Intuition/AK. Keeper has to use either one or the other (if not both). If you choose Future Sight, it turns into The Shining; if you choose Intuition/AK, it turns into Hulk. Find a different card draw engine to use, and it will either mutate into a different deck again, or there's a chance it will end up remaining Keeper.\n\n

[jpmeyer]

Quote (VideoGameBoy @ Sep. 02 2003,14:30)

Quote (Rico Suave @ Sep. 02 2003,11:13)But Tog now doesn't even have room for 1.

I think some sort of Keeper-hybrid using Tog as kill would be what would come out of it, but that's different from the Intuition-AK Tog we currently have.

Intuition->AK/D.A. is a de-facto substitution for Fact or Fiction.  Believe me, with unrestricted FoF, T1 'Tog will make room for 4 x FoF - mad card drawing combined with 'Tog synergy (a single FoF either pumps 'Tog anywhere from +3/+3 to +7/+7) makes for World Champion decks, I hear.

I'd cut Intuition/AK for them.  This would free up two more slots in the maindeck, where I could put in say, DA #3 and like a random Deed or or Fire/Ice or something.  It actually might make the mirror more interesting, since while AK is bad there, FoF is a fine card drawer.

EDIT: On the subject of Keeper and FoF, one of the reason that Keeper was easily the #2 deck during the 4 FoF era was because it let Keeper combine extra draw and extra search in a single card.  Granted, monoblue could abuse it better, but the ability to dig as well as draw made it so Keeper could run just like 2 Diabolic Edict and Balance for its creature removal and simply cut tutors like Vampiric.\n\n

[Setnakt]

I think the main point is that many decklists haven't caught up, so to speak. I think I can say it more clearly now. The deck has to evolve, just like any other deck, if not to a greater degree. It'll always be a viable strategy but I think what may be confusing some people is that "viable" is not necessarily "the best." And if it's not among "the best," there are those of us who will not depend on it for tournament play, and thus, won't call it our mainstay deck. Usually it's just a matter of perspective that causes confusion.

Obviously it needs a better kill. The Shining is good, but the most common complaint is that it has to run at least one dead card. Hulk does not; it always has the option of throwing down a piece of its win and interacting with the board. Hulk also operates as one synergetic beast.

Anyways, so it seems the thing to do is to give it a better kill, or way to arrive at that kill condition. Unless there's another kill mechanism on-par with The Shining's or Hulk's, or at least comparable, without a tremendous difference in tempo and one that is either small enough to fit inside a control deck or synergetic enough to work as a part of it, those two seem to be the way to go.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote The Shining is good, but the most common complaint is that it has to run at least one dead card. Hulk does not

Which card in Shining is a dead card?  As far as I know, the kill in Shining is burning wish.  This is actually more useful than Tog is in Hulk in many matchups.

Hulk's advantages over Shining is a lower mana curve, stronger mana base, and more resiliency to hate.  Shining's advantages over Hulk are its explosiveness (i.e. ability to go combo).

Regarding keeper, I think it is useful to consider Hulk, Shining, and multi-color phid decks as evolutions of keeper.  Right now hybrid strategies are more successful.  This does not mean that straight control is obsolete; Urphid is quite a good deck as well.\n\n

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote The Shining is good, but the most common complaint is that it has to run at least one dead card. Hulk does not



Which card in Shining is a dead card?  As far as I know, the kill in Shining is burning wish.  This is actually more useful than Tog is in Hulk in many matchups.

I think he means the lone StP and ZOrb. Those are quite dead in some matchups. I think Shining compensates those with a little bit more raw power than Hulk has (i.e. Burning Wish ->Will).

[LemanRuss]

And I just wanted to know if someone else had an idea of where to go from here with Keeper cause I couldn't figure it out.

Yes, JP. I have an idea about this. Is it a good one ? I don't know. First, I'll try to figure out where is The Deck's actual problem by summing up what was previously said with these quotes:

Quote Keeper has no real proactive threats in the first few turns and I think that is what makes it weak currently.

Yes, Keeper can play proactive threats. The card I am thinking about would work that way.

Quote Without these (Balance and The Abyss) to generate card advantage, the only real other way that a control deck can generate card advantage is through draw.

and:

Quote The reason Keeper isn't very good anymore is because the notion of the "silver bullet" was a bit of a farse in Keeper.  Keeper never really had any silver bullets for anything other than creatures and burn, with the exception of Bloodmoon way back in the day.

So you need an anti-spell polyvalent silver bullet ? The card I was talking about works exactly that way !

Quote What can Keeper use as a silver bullet against Stacks?  Against Hulk?  Against Mask?  There really aren't any inexpensive, fast cards that hose these decks that, in turn, don't hose Keeper.

Yes, there is. If you assume two manas are inexpensive, and that hosing Goblin Welder partially hoses Stax, hosing Illusionnary mask totally hoses Masknought, etc...

And the card I am thinking about is blue, so pitchable, and can also kill your opponent ! It is called Meddling mage.


Trust me or not, but this card IS a deck hoser, a real anti-spell proactive silver bullet. I am testing is for several weeks now, and it kills so many recent top decks that I believe it could be a key of The Deck's evolution.

I will say more about that on Zherbus's Keeper post.

[SpikeyMikey]

Quote (Grendal @ Aug. 31 2003,15:22)Saying Keeper is dead is moronic IMO.  It may very well be that Keeper isn't "The next big thing" but just because the popularity of decks has swung towards Hulk, doesn't mean Keeper is any more or less viable than it was before.   It just means with more people playing Hulk, that there is a higher likelihood of us seeing Hulk decks in the finals.

I think boards like this are great because they let us fine tune decks, and really put everyone’s heads together about meta gaming strategies and the like, but to actually make a thread stating that a deck archetype is dead, when obviously it isn't, is crazy.    Mark my words, the same people posting on this thread, or ones like it saying Keeper is dead, will many months down the line be preaching it as the be all and end all of decks once again.

Currently Keeper is still probably the most hated deck in the environments, and rightly so, it’s dominated for years on end.   But if Hulk really does take off, what then?   All of a sudden there will be decks packing tons of graveyard hate, 4 Maze of Ith's main decked, and crazy stuff like that, and then guess what... the tide swings the other way, and Keeper in the eyes of many rises again.   Keeper is a pendulum, this month it may not be the most popular deck, but just wait...  its always there, it never goes away...  and it continues to win and evolve.

- Grendal

@JP - I've been arguing the point you brought up in your original post for a long time now, and while it is amusing to note that people are much more polite about calling you a moron, their arguments remain the same.

Keeper used to win off the power of absolute hosers.  Just as BBS won many games simply off the hosing strength of Back to Basics, Keeper won many games simply off the strength of hosers like Moat or The Abyss.  Like a 5 color Napster, Keeper establishes absolute control over the game, and then proceeded to win.  The win condition wasn't even particularly important, if you could establish a soft lock via a combination of hosers and the most powerful control cards ever printed, you could beat your opponent with Stroke of Genius.  Morphling was used simply because it was efficient, but I've won games before by beating with Gorilla Shaman, because I had to Force with Morphling early.

The lack of a draw engine has *always* been a weakness for Keeper, but more importantly, the hosers just aren't as strong any more.  The Abyss doesn't deal with hordes of first turn Juggernauts and Su-Chi's.  Cunning Wish for happy fun ball doesn't happen fast enough to deal with a first turn Phyrexian Dreadnaught.  Allay isn't a solid answer against Trix because it runs both the trix engine and also Tendrils, and even if you could shut down the Tendrils, you can't keep Allay in hand against a deck that runs so much targeted hand destruction.  Much like BBS before it, Tog simply outdraws and out counters Keeper, forcing it to rely on a combination of lucky draws and godlike playing skills to win.

The problem is, Keeper has had terminal cancer for the last year and a half or two years now.  As decks like Stacker broke the monotony of Stompy/Sligh/Suicide/WW/BBS/Keeper/Academy/Crap Decks, introducing new themes and a more varied threat pattern, Keeper started getting weaker.  Unfortunately, it will continue to get that way.  If you were to build a deck using nothing but Alpha and Beta cards, you would find that it's nearly impossible to build a competitive mono-red deck.  A 5 color control is the best possible option then, because none of the colors have the strengths on their own to compete with something that has access to the best answers from every color.  Now let's move this up a bit.  Let's say you can use cards from Alpha through Stronghold.  Suddenly, you've got a very viable mono-red deck, Sligh.  3 years later, we've got an even better mono-red deck, Gobbo Sligh.

We could do the same thing for every color, each color gets stronger as the years go by, while the multi color decks get weaker against the field.  Not because they don't still have access to the best answers from each color, because they do, but simply because there's not enough room to fit them all.  Strong cards get cut because there simply isn't enough room.  Look at Moat.  "Creatures without flying cannot attack".  You don't get a much stronger card than that, but there simply isn't room any more.  Add to this the number of incredibly powerful cards that simply work against the deck, cards like Price of Progress, Back to Basics, Ankh of Mishra, Psychogenic Probe that see(or will see) widespread play.

It's not that the cards don't exist to build and support a Keeper style deck, it's simply that the metagame doesn't support the entire STYLE.  Now it's entirely possible that some time down the road, things will have changed, and a come-back will be possible.  4 years ago, a competitive T1 millstone deck would have never been possible, and yet just last year, people were winning with Laquatus.  4 years ago, Prison decks were as dead as the dodo, and now Stax has people running Energy Flux in their sideboards.  Keeper could make a comeback.  Right now, however, it's not a viable strategy.

The problem is, the defenders of Keeper are like religious zealots.  Try telling a devout christian that god doesn't exist.  All the logic, all the proof in the world won't convince them.  They'll still walk away from the conversation thinking the way they did before you entered into a discussion with them.  "It's not the power level of Keeper, it's the fact that you're a bad player".  How do you argue that point.  If you lose with the deck, you're a bad player, if you win with it, it must be a good deck.  If the woman floats, she's a witch, if she drowns, she's not...  I've done well with Keeper when I've played it, but that doesn't mean that I've ever considered it better than a tier 2 deck.  "Keeper is no longer a silver bullet deck".  So why does it run the gamut of tutors from weak tutors like Merchant Scroll all the way up to Cunning Wish?  Why does it still have no draw engine?  Of course, you can't convince anybody that the deck can't draw cards either.  I tried that years ago, saying that Ancestral Recall+FoF+Stroke+2 Impulse did not constitute a draw engine.  I proposed that control should be running at a minimum 4 Impulse and 4 AK.  I was told that I simply don't understand T1.

Whether the deck is viable or not is not an issue you can rationally discuss, it's something that you figure out on your own, and keep to yourself.  I'm actually rather surprised that you came to that conclusion, I figured you'd be one of the Keeper proponents.  Saying Keeper is dead, in my experience, is tantamount to asking people to flame you.

@Grendal - I chose your post to quote from because it succinctly sums up the basic dogma of Keeper fans, but answer me this please:  Who is hating Keeper?  I don't see anyone running board hate for Keeper, nor do I really even see people taking it into consideration when designing their decks.

[Malus]

Quote (LemanRuss @ Sep. 04 2003,11:57)Yes, there is. If you assume two manas are inexpensive, and that hosing Goblin Welder partially hoses Stax, hosing Illusionnary mask totally hoses Masknought, etc...

And the card I am thinking about is blue, so pitchable, and can also kill your opponent ! It is called Meddling mage.


Trust me or not, but this card IS a deck hoser, a real anti-spell proactive silver bullet. I am testing is for several weeks now, and it kills so many recent top decks that I believe it could be a key of The Deck's evolution.

I have tested this a bit in a Keeper build as well. It really does make the game easier against many decks, such as Mask and Tendrils.  The only problem I had was trying to fit it into the deck.  I ended up cutting red out of the deck to fit them in and to help smooth out the mana base in order to make them easier to play.  Probably not the right decision, but it does help to get them out.  Though it kind of downplay's the mana denial theme by cutting out  the Gorilla Shaman's, I was always under the impression that mana denial wasn't the best way to win games anymore.\n\n

[Eastman]

Spikey... let me quote some of your dissertation above:

Quote Try telling a devout christian that god doesn't exist.  All the logic, all the proof in the world won't convince them.

(a metaphor for the 'overzealous' keeper supporters... apparently it is a religion)

Quote The problem is, Keeper has had terminal cancer for the last year and a half or two years now.  

Quote The lack of a draw engine has *always* been a weakness for Keeper

Seriously.. do you believe this?

[Grendal]

Quote Keeper used to win off the power of absolute hosers.  Just as BBS won many games simply off the hosing strength of Back to Basics, Keeper won many games simply off the strength of hosers like Moat or The Abyss.

I think cards like this are still very playable, and extremely effective.  The fact that people have disreguarded them entirely doesn't mean they don't work.   A resolved Abyss or Moat vs Hulk is huge.   But if Keeper players decide to lose The Abyss in favor of something else that is not as potentially a (bomb) then don't be to suprised if decks like Hulk don't even bother to counter what you cast.   Ask Smmenen about The Abyss...  I played Abyss maindeck vs GAT at Origins, and both games resolved it, and both games abused it to no end.  Just because other Keeper players don't choose to keep bombs, doesn't mean its not good...

Quote The lack of a draw engine has *always* been a weakness for Keeper, but more importantly, the hosers just aren't as strong any more.  The Abyss doesn't deal with hordes of first turn Juggernauts and Su-Chi's.  Cunning Wish for happy fun ball doesn't happen fast enough to deal with a first turn Phyrexian Dreadnaught.  Allay isn't a solid answer against Trix because it runs both the trix engine and also Tendrils, and even if you could shut down the Tendrils, you can't keep Allay in hand against a deck that runs so much targeted hand destruction.  Much like BBS before it, Tog simply outdraws and out counters Keeper, forcing it to rely on a combination of lucky draws and godlike playing skills to win.

I agree 100% with everything you just said.   Many Keeper players are stuck in a rut in terms of deck design.   They do not change things much, and they expect a few people (Zherbus/Rakso) to pave the way for there future changes when they should be doing that themselves.   Keeper in its most current form gets oudrawn by Hulk quite easily...

This leads me to your next quote that I also agree with...

Quote So why does it run the gamut of tutors from weak tutors like Merchant Scroll all the way up to Cunning Wish?  Why does it still have no draw engine?  

Again, I don't know why people still run those cards.  I at origins had ditched both Mystical Tutor / Merchant Scroll, and did quite well I think.   I still to this day do not run either one of those spells maindeck.   I'm currently still running 3 Cunning Wish, I have as many solid draw spells as Hulk, and no I am not counting Brainstorm or Impulse, and I pack 4 duress main.   I still maintain the 4 brainstorm maindeck and 5 fetchlands.   But I unlike a lot of the Keeper players have changed my deck according to the format.   Where once before a Keeper vs Hulk match would quite easily be 30/70 in Hulks favor game 1, and 50/50 if your lucky game 2.   I think my game 1 is now 50/50 if not in favor of me game 1.  Sideboarding to this day still favors Keeper a little bit.

I'll post it now, since I know I will be asked...

----------------------------
My Current Keeper
----------------------------
Total Cards   60
Mana Perc.   43.33%
Avg. CCost   2.53

\\Mana
1   Black Lotus
4   Moxen
1   Library of Alexandria
1   Sol Ring
1   Strip Mine
4   Wastelands
2   Tundra
3   Volcanic Islands
4   Underground Sea
2   Polluted Delta
3   Flooded Strand


\\Cards
1   Masticore
1   Balance
2   Swords to Plowshares
1   The Abyss
1   Demonic Tutor
4   Duress
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1   Skeletal Scrying
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Time Walk
4   Mana Drain
4   Force of Will
1   Fact or Fiction
1   Morphling
3   Cunning Wish
1   Stroke of Genius
1   Braingeyser
4   Brainstorm
1   Future Sight


\\Sideboard
1   Disenchant
1   Swords to Plowshares
1   Orim's Chant
1   Ebony Charm
1   Diabolic Edict
1   Skeletal Scrying
4   Red Elemental Blast
1   Pyroblast
1   Shattering Pulse
1   Flaming Gambit
1   Fire/Ice
1   Hurkyll's Recall

----------------------------

Some things to note...  I ditched the Mind Twist in favor of 4 Duress...  the reason for this is although Mind Twist in many matches can be a huge bomb, in the matches that give Keeper the most trouble, I would much rather be able to see there hand and remove a potential counter.

With MisDirection pretty much obsolete from all but the mono decks (Phid/Fish) its high time Keeper reinvent itself in terms of a draw engine.   I have ditched the 2 slots that some Keeper players have been testing Impulse in, and brought back 2 old favorites (Braingeyser / Stroke of Genius).   Now before anyone goes on a rant of how this is bad, let me explain first.

MisD is gone from the format, or atleast considerably less,  so its not so much to worry about.   With 4 duress main you can at the very least insure your opponent doesn't have a MisD and hopefully a counter when you attempt to resolve one of these.   Keepers biggest problem in terms of a matchup with Hulk,  was that if it did win a early counter war, and early on Keeper / Hulk are essentially entirely equal, then whoever won that war would punish the other player.   For example, if Hulk won the war, he would most likely intuition into some AK's and draw 3 or 4 cards.   The problem came with Keeper, in that Keeper with its lack of a draw engine, couldn't always respond with a devestating bomb upon winning a war.   A bomb to Keeper might be attempting to lay a morphling, or just using various mana to Cunning Wish or the like.   Keeper couldn't punish hulk for losing by drawing a fat X spell.   Now it can.

Now I am not about to ask everyone to run out and test this, because this is not what this forum is for, but I have played this version of Keeper in quite a few Hulk matchups and found that the Pre-Sideboard match is extremely even, if not a little in Keepers favor, although that may be my deck bias stepping in on that one.

My current problem with the Keeper being dead arguement is that the Keeper deck everyone is refering to, IS DEAD.   It can't compete draw wise, and in losing that battle, it certainly can't compete control wise.   But Keeper is not dead if you know what you are doing, and are willing to change your deck according to the current metagame.

I'm interested in getting some feedback on this...  

- Grendal