Post-Mirrodin Metagame Analysis and Discussion

[Hyperion]

Post-Mirrodin Metagame Analysis

I thought it would be worthwhile to have a discussion about the state of the format, now that we’ve had a few weeks to play with Mirrodin cards and begin to establish some sense of where the various archetypes fit into an overarching tier structure. In addition, December 1st is just a couple of weeks away, after which the format may change dramatically yet again as a result of any additions to the Banned/Restricted List.

In the following analysis, I’ve attempted to highlight what I feel are the environment-defining cards, discuss the more prevalent archetypes and how they are affected by the environment-definining cards, and make some initial predictions as to where the format is headed. I hope that a productive discussion of any of the issues raised will follow. I that respondents avoid turning this into another “Ban/Restrict [card(s)]!” argument because there are plenty of those elsewhere on the forums and it will only serve to distract from the discussion at hand.

Environment-Defining Cards
Force of Will
Chalice of the Void
Mishra’s Workshop
Bazaar of Baghdad
Wasteland
Lion’s Eye Diamond

Force of Will
This always has been—and always will be—an environment-defining card, as it keeps combo in check and keeps the format fundamentally different from the combo-ridden Extended format.

Chalice of the Void
The full impact of this card has yet to be felt. It’s received a lot of hype—much more than any other card in Mirrodin, and much of it negative—but we haven’t had the time to fully gauge how it will effect the tier structure in Type I. Many people thought it would be the death of Long.dec, but Long is still making Top 8 brackets by sideboarding accordingly. Others noted that it meant the death of traditional Sligh, but Sligh is rarely seen outside of low-power metagames anyway. Finally, other people suggested that Chalice would be the proverbial “straw that broke the camel’s back” for the Workshop decks, but this notion is little more than speculation yet.

Mishra’s Workshop
Workshop prison decks are responsible for defining the environment because they have pushed most of the aggro decks out of contention and have many of the weapons needed to contend with combo decks. Workshop has also greatly affected the viability of the blue-based control decks.

Bazaar of Baghdad
Bazaar defines the format because of the deck that best abuses it—the Worldgorger Dragon combo deck. It is also put to good use in Madness decks and the occasionally seen Reanimator build.

Wasteland
Two of the other environment-defining cards are nonbasic lands that play an instrumental role in how the decks they’re used in work. To put it simply—control decks that aren’t designed to accommodate Wasteland have started to fall by the wayside recently, whereas those that are have more potential.

Lion’s Eye Diamond
LED is responsible for making Long.dec fast enough to circumvent much of the hate thrown at it. Thus, those decks that rely heavily on hate to beat the fast combo decks are having difficulty making waves Vintage right now.

I. Control Decks

Keeper
There are several reasons to suggest why Keeper has started receiving more press recently. One is that Keeper is better prepared to deal with the Worldgorger combo decks than Hulk—mainly because of Wasteland, but Swords to Plowshares is another potential threat as well. Given the rise in popularity of Dragon decks recently, the argument for playing Keeper over Hulk now has more merit.

The other reason is that Mirrodin gives Keeper two new toys to play with—Chalice of the Void and Isochron’s Scepter. With a diverse mana curve, and the full complement of artifact mana and Mana Drains for acceleration, Chalice works well in Keeper and between the maindeck and sideboard it is finding a place in almost every posted Keeper list on these forums. Isochron’s Scepter is also being experimented with as well, but results are less conclusive on this card thus far. Some players like it, citing the wide array of Imprintable options already in the maindeck, plus the Wishable component of Keeper’s sideboard. Others suggest that it is too unwieldy to set up and a risky investment because of the potential card disadvantage if the opponent has access to artifact removal. Note that these two cards are not necessarily mutually exclusive; some players feel that running one or the other is appropriate in order to maximize the utility of either in Keeper, and others run both. It will be interesting to see if Keeper players are able to reach a consensus on the placement of either or both of these cards further down the road, and whether that consensus will come about from advancement in the deck design itself or from metagame shifts.

With other blue-based control decks being pushed out of contention because of Mishra’s Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad, Keeper does not have to contend with their stronger draw engines and countermagic arsenals. Its access to Force of Will, Wasteland, and Chalice of the Void should make it well prepared to deal with the other decks in the format.

Hulk
It will be interesting to see if Keeper becomes prevalent enough again that Hulk becomes the logical choice to play again to counter it. Without Wasteland, Hulk has more trouble with Dragon and Artifact Prison decks than Keeper. And with a more proactive playstyle than Keeper (as well as a less diverse mana curve), Hulk is not as well situated to fall back on Chalice of the Void.

Monoblue and U/r Phid
Again, Keeper seeing more play may make for a good argument to playing these decks, which can also make good use of Chalice of the Void.

II. Combo Decks

Dragon
Dragon continues to put in solid showings at tournaments as well, and is unique among combo decks because it is not hosed by Chalice of the Void. In fact, may Dragon players are sideboarding Chalice themselves! However, because Dragon is also very susceptible to hate, its relative strength in the metagame depends on whether people believe it to be a threat or not. A resurgence of Keeper may make life more difficult for Dragon players, but other than that I think there is little reason to assume that Dragon’s status will change for the worse in the coming months other than having to deal with more hate.

Long.dec
So far, we have seen Long continue to place in some Top 8 brackets, but still not come to dominate (number-wise) in the same way that the last truly environment-defining deck did (Growatog) or even as much as Dragon. This is to be expected, given the added difficulty of playing Long, as well as putting it together in the first place. We have seen in a couple instances so far that it can still win tournaments by having a sideboard prepared to deal with Chalice of the Void. If Long is perceived to be “too good”, but isn’t played enough to flood the Top 8 brackets, does that mean something needs to be done about this deck, or should players that take the time to master it and prepare for a field of hate be rewarded accordingly? Is Chalice of the Void enough to bring Long down to earth and retain its upper tier status without distorting the format? So far it seems that just the presence of this card is discouraging people from playing the deck, so I would hesitantly answer "yes". We have seen time and time again that Type I is a more robust format than it appears at first glance, and that breaking it is easier said than done.

Rector Trix and Rector Tendrils
All the rage going into GenCon, these decks have fallen by the wayside recently, with Long and Dragon emerging as the top combo decks, by virtue of the fact that they are faster and more broken. Rector-based combo decks are not consistently fast enough to push as many decks out of contention, and having to use the life total as a resource because of its dependence on Bargain is another weakness. It is unlikely that Rector combo decks will make their presence felt over the other combo decks unless bannings/restrictions make Long.dec and Dragon unviable.

III. Workshop Prison Decks

These decks have received a lot of hype due to the fact that they are the best able to abuse Chalice of the Void, and yet have failed to distort the environment thus far. This is partially because a lot of the decks that the artifact prison decks really beat up on have been pushed out of contention by the rest of the upper tier decks already. It is also because it is a slow, artifact-heavy deck; its artifact-heavy nature means there are plenty of potential answers to the deck, and its slowness gives the opponent a larger window of opportunity to actually do something—unlike Long, which is fast enough for hate to be too slow. Artifact prison decks will remain competitive, especially because of the boost given it by Chalice of the Void, but have not been so dominant as to warp the environment yet.

IV. Aggressive and Aggressive/Control Decks

Fish
Fish has Force of Will, which is important by itself and makes it unique among other aggro/aggro-control archetypes. Second, with Null Rod, Wasteland, and in some cases Stifle, it has a very punishing mana denial element against a lot of the top tier decks. And third, the relative lack of other aggressive decks to give it problems make it a much more competitive deck. It is slow, underpowered compared to the other upper tier decks, and doesn’t have any “I win” cards (other than Null Rod in select matchups), but this has to be considered one of the best decks with creatures in the format, and is arguably the best deck that can be built on a budget.

Madness
Because of its formidable draw engine and speed, Madness is one of the few pure aggressive decks that can be considered viable. It has a difficult Game 1 against the combo decks but can bring in Chalice or Tormod’s Crypt after boarding and is fast enough that these hosers are sufficient to delay the opponent for the small window of opportunity it needs to win. Bazaar gives it game against the control decks, and it is largely unaffected by Chalice of the Void, unlike most other aggressive decks. Its chances against the artifact prison decks depend largely on who goes first, as a first turn Sphere of Resistance is Madness’ Achilles heel. Overall, I don’t expect this deck to get much better or worse than a decent second tier deck, unless Dragon gets hated out to the point where people want to use their Bazaars to play Madness instead, as it is less dependent on using the graveyard as a resource, and thus less vulnerable to graveyard hate.

If LED gets restricted because of its role in Long.dec, will Madness die as well? From some limited testing I’ve done, I think it will still be a very viable deck, especially since it will still have Bazaar of Baghdad - which is really irreplaceable in this deck.  

Mask
This is a deck that hasn’t been talked about much until very recently, though players have doubtlessly been working on it since Mirrodin’s release with the introduction of Spoils of the Vault into the format to improve its consistency and provide a more elegant deck design than its predecessor (Tainted Mask). Many current builds are similar in structure and purpose to Suicide Black, with the advantage of a much faster kill mechanism. I personally love Mask’s ability to use Lightning Greaves to protect Dreadnought from artifact and creature removal, and the ability to protect what is otherwise a risky play in a number of matchups (Negator). Its primary Achilles heel is Null Rod, and Chalice can also be a pain as well. But Mask’s ability to get the “oops I win” draw—which is increased even more with Spoils of the Vault—will make it a competitive deck in the coming months.

What about Vengeur Masques? Should this be considered over Spoils Mask? While it does have Force of Will, this deck’s weaknesses relative to Spoils Mask are that it is less consistent and it takes longer to set up, which is particularly important for beating the artifact prison decks and having a shot at beating combo decks. For those reasons, I expect that it will not see as much success as Spoils Mask for the time being.

Suicide Black/Void
The artifact prison decks (and Workshop decks in general) are keeping Sui at bay for now. Other than that, this should be a solid contender in a format where aggro is at an all-time low, given its ability to use effective hand disruption, Wasteland, Null Rod, Chalice, and excellent graveyard hate of all sorts. Sui is slow by today’s standards, and unlike Fish it doesn’t have Force of Will to make up for that. However, in a metagame light or totally absent of Workshops, Sui should be a decent metagame choice.

Stacker/TNT
Both of these decks gained some from Mirrodin by virtue of the fact that they can maindeck Chalice of the Void. With that said, Stacker is not as stifling as the Workshop prison decks, and TNT is also quite slow by today’s standards, though play of either of these decks could pick up a bit depending on how prevalent Keeper and other blue-based control decks are that don't use Psychatog.

Conclusion
What will happen to Type I in the near future? While the answer to this question depends in part on any changes made to the Banned/Restricted list come December 1st, we have no control over them and can’t really take them into account when analyzing the current metagame. Right now it looks like the decks that people are focused most on are Dragon, the artifact prison decks, Long.dec, and Keeper. Fish has been putting up consistently good results, and even GrowAtog is showing up here and there. Suicide Black's viability improves dramatically in a metagame light on Workshop decks, as does that of Madness, Stacker, and TNT in a combo-light metagame. Depending on how strong a showing Keeper makes in the coming months, we may see a resurgence in Hulk and other blue-based control decks, which will in turn provide an opening for Mask decks. I expect that Dragon in particular will have to contend with a lot more hate in the form of graveyard removal and Wastelands, as it is perceived by many to be the best deck in the format. Once that happens, I think we will have a wide-open metagame - more so than we've had in months - and it's anyone's guess as to where the format goes from there.\n\n

[bebe]

Although your analysis is for the most part on the money concerning environment defining cards ( although Ancient Tomb will be seen to deserve a mention), I think there are quite a few rogue decks waiting to break out and a few other established arch types that might start coming on.
G/w Stompy and fat green both have great potential in a number of metas. We have not yet fully explored Ghoul decks ( don't mock -we are currently building a very solid version), dicemanx is playing with Eureka, and there are a few other combo decks that are waiting in the weeds until the meta settles down a bit. Even a well built FEB can do well.

I agree that Long and Dragon seem to be on everyone's list now but both can and will be hated out if WOTC does the expected - create the cards to beat them or errata or restrict others. Even that said, neither have dominated yet and they are winning now because the best players have picked them up.

Also, Sligh is far from dead. Chalice will NOT kill mono red. Eel Sligh is a great example of a competitive build easily ported to Type 1 and I fully expect to see more innovations.

[Smmenen]

I think the environment defining cards is an echo of what I did here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5227

Quote
Format-Defining Spells
Here I am going to point out five spells that really define the Vintage Format, omitting obvious cards like Moxen and Black Lotus.

Force Of Will
The most important spell in Type One is Force of Will. It is the glue that holds this format together. Without it, combo decks would unleash a wave of terror in which control decks, while not unplayable, would lose to combo at a sufficient rate to discourage people from playing control, the archetype best suited to keep combo in check. Pure aggro decks would have little real chance in a heavy combo environment.

A basic tenant of Type One is that you either run this spell, or find ways to beat it. One common way to get around Force of Will is Duress. Another is simply to run Force of Will oneself.

Yawgmoth's Will, A.K.A. Yawg Win
This is perhaps the most broken spell in Type One. The more broken the cards are in any given deck, the more broken this card becomes. With Black Lotus, it becomes a free spell - and with bombs like Ancestral Recall and Time Walk in the yard, this becomes so broken that it is commonly referred to as Yawg Win - because once it is played, the game is usually sealed right there. It is perhaps a misnomer that this is an environment-defining spell - instead, the format defines it. And when you consider how broken Type One can be, that is saying a lot.

Mishra's Workshop
This land is unrestricted. Its function is to let you skip the two- and three-drops and pretend that Juggernaut is a two-drop. Just think about this for a moment: You can tap a Mishra's Workshop and play a Tangle Wire or a Metalworker. That is amazing. Just think about that: Play a land, tap it, Tangle Wire. You can Tap this land and a Mox and play a Juggernaut. The acceleration really helps get around counter walls, as you are able to play multiple threats per turn. This card was restricted for a long time, and you could make some really good arguments that it belongs on back on the restricted list now. There are two or three upper-tier decks trying their best to abuse this card.

Illusionary Mask
A card that is used in multiple decks right now, it is hard to deny the power of the Illusionary Mask/Phyrexian Dreadnought combo. For those who don't know, you can play a Phyrexian Dreadnought through an Illusionary Mask without suffering the Dreadnought's drawback. Yes. That means on turn 1, you can go Dark Ritual, Illusionary Mask, Phyrexian Dreadnought. Cool, huh? This card isn't format-defining like Mishra's Workshop, but I have a feeling that in the post-July 1st metagame, we are going to see a proliferation of different decks using this card beyond the two that are already running rampant in the Vintage metagame. For more detail on one deck running this card, see my article from last year here.

Psychatog
This card has quickly taken the spot of the best creature in the format (although some belligerents still believe that Morphling is better). One of my favorite plays in Type One is to cast Berserk on my 'Tog. This card is a kill mechanism of choice for many of the best Type One players. 'Tog is hungry, but Vintage provides some massive card drawers. Sadly, he doesn't fit into every deck that can use him - but all other things being equal, if you have cards in your deck, he is the best creature in the game.

In Summary:

Principle #3 (and perhaps the most important): Force of Will is the Glue that holds T1 together.

I wrote that in late may and my phrase about FoW as the glue has been repeated alot, even in one of Anthony Alongi's articles in August I believe.  

You really want the environment defining cards to be just that, environment defining - core to archetypes, or omnipresent otherwise.  As far as that is concerned, while I agree Ancient Tomb is underused, it isn't environment defining, and I'm not sure Wasteland is either.  

But Hyperion's post is excellent.  It helps to have someone do this once in a while to get a littler perspective.\n\n

[Eastman]

Quote The other reason is that Mirrodin gives Keeper two new toys to play with—Chalice of the Void and Isochron’s Scepter. With a diverse mana curve, and the full complement of artifact mana and Mana Drains for acceleration, Chalice works well in Keeper and between the maindeck and sideboard it is finding a place in almost every posted Keeper list on these forums. Isochron’s Scepter is also being experimented with as well, but results are less conclusive on this card thus far.

It has become clear at this point that Isochron Scepter does not belong in traditional keeper. It is terribly strong, however, in some newer Scepter-based control decks (we use a build in Hadley called 'the chronic' with four fire/ice). It is not unreasonable to view the scepter decks as an evolution of the Phidian/BBS control strategy as the playstyle is very similar.

The post mirrodin meta will evolve to see 3 dominant and distinct control archetypes; Keeper (specifically Chalice Keeper), Hulk, and Isocontrol. GAT is still of reasonable strength but will likely be edged out by it's inability to deal with Dragon as effectively as the less agressive control strategies (unless of course it is somehow evolved to cope).\n\n

[Dante]

Quote (Eastman @ Nov. 19 2003,15:25)GAT is still of reasonable strength but will likely be edged out by it's inability to deal with Dragon as effectively as the less agressive control strategies (unless of course it is somehow evolved to cope).

Both your statement and Hyperion's lack of putting GAT in the aggro control section of his nicely worded post above seem to imply this is not a highly competitive deck, but the recent Waterbury and other show this deck can stand right up there.

Notice in a Dragon-heavy environment (17 dragon decks, 3 in the top 8), 2 GAT decks made the top 8, one making the finals and losing in 3 games.

I think trying to group the GAT decks with control is a mistake.

Bill

[Eastman]

Quote (Dante @ Nov. 19 2003,16:43)

Quote (Eastman @ Nov. 19 2003,15:25)GAT is still of reasonable strength but will likely be edged out by it's inability to deal with Dragon as effectively as the less agressive control strategies (unless of course it is somehow evolved to cope).

Both your statement and Hyperion's lack of putting GAT in the aggro control section of his nicely worded post above seem to imply this is not a highly competitive deck, but the recent Waterbury and other show this deck can stand right up there.

Notice in a Dragon-heavy environment (17 dragon decks, 3 in the top 8), 2 GAT decks made the top 8, one making the finals and losing in 3 games.

I think trying to group the GAT decks with control is a mistake.

Bill

You are right, it is not fair to group GAT with other control builds.

I only mentioned it because I felt like I was leaving something out by not mentioning GAT along with the three other control Archetypes.

GAT is still definitely very strong and is obviously a more important part of the meta than we've recently given credit.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote GAT is still definitely very strong and is obviously a more important part of the meta than we've recently given credit

TESTIFY!

Seriously, it obviously doesn't have the raw power of its predecessor, but in a workshop-light metagame, this deck is has very few bad matchups.  I was a little surprised Mono-U and Stacker got their own section, and this deck was only mentioned in passing.

Quote will likely be edged out by it's inability to deal with Dragon

 While not an easy matchup, I worry about Long and Workshop a lot more than I worry about dragon.  I'm probably at least 75% in tournament matches against it, as my sideboard has so many options against it (Coffin Purge, BEB, Naturalize, Crypt, Stifle).

Quote I think trying to group the GAT decks with control is a mistake

I think this is highly dependent on the build and the player.  I certainly play mine much more like a control deck, except against other control decks.  I've seen others that almost always try to drop a creature by turn 2-3.

Regarding the rest of the post:

Quote Environment-Defining Cards
Force of Will
Chalice of the Void
Mishra’s Workshop
Bazaar of Baghdad
Wasteland
Lion’s Eye Diamond

I also wouldn't consider Wasteland in this list, as sometimes its not enough since it doesn't stop the initial activation of bazaar and workshop, and in the control matchup its only good in multiples.  It doesn't win games by itself.

Quote Monoblue and U/r Phid

As Eastman said, these concepts live on in scepter control.  I still feel this archetype is underdeveloped, and time will tell if its robust enough to compete with more refined control builds.

Quote Aggressive and Aggressive/Control Decks

Fish and Madness have earned their rep in my opinion as competitive (if not elite) decks.  I'd like to hear more from others about Mask, Stacker/TnT, and Void, as these decks aren't played much in my local area.  Do these decks have the tools to disrupt lightning fast combo and more redundant control decks?

Quote It helps to have someone do this once in a while to get a littler perspective

I agree.  I also thing this is needed so that we can absorb the Dec. 1 changes from a more solid position.  I think we have a slightly faster, although equally enjoyable metagame when compared with pre-GAT type 1.  It would be nice to fit more budget aggro decks in, but people just aren't evolving them.

[leviat]

As an echo to previous statements, I feel that Gro/Tog decks are still very strong and should be considered among the highest level of competitive decks in today's metagame. I would analyze today's Gro/Tog decks into three different catagories.

Quick Breakdown of today's Gro/Tog builds

Control
The controlish builds would include NeoGro, Hulk and Emerald Alice (although this has dropped off) builds. These decks are played in control mode. They will keep a handle on the game until they are ready to win.

I find these builds are designed with hard counters such as Counterspell and Mana Drain, they include Wishes to find answer for threats, and they most often play a Strip Mine with maybe a Wasteland or two to deal as additional disruption.

Aggro / Control
The aggro / control builds are a mixture of both worlds. I would classify ChapinGrow and SuperGro this category. These will almost always include Dryads to compliment the Psychatog (or Mystic Enforcer).

They often include just a couple of hard counters to go along with the pitch counters. The control elements are reduced and cantrips/tutors are increased. Strip Mines are included but rarely will you see a wasteland. The white version may include a Disenchant or a StoP, but most of the answers are left in the sideboard.

Aggro / Combo
The aggro / combo builds are designed to kill you as fast and possible and rely upon pitch counters to stop the most dangerous of threats. The two most popular builds are GroAtog and EnforcerGro. The deck relies upon a fast Dryad for the win and uses a Psychatog or Mystic Enforcer as a backup.

These deck lists include very little disruption or control elements. The only control elements found maindeck are the pitch counters FoW, Foil, and MisD. A typical build will include 6-8 threats, 6-8 pitch counters, 18-20 mana sources, and 22-24 cantrip draw spells. If a Cunning Wish is included, it's main purpose is to grab a Berserk in the sideboard.


Unfortunately, the middle ground is pretty hazy and it's probably easier to classify the Grow decks into one of the two ends of the spectrum. The deck is either designed with a Control element or an Aggro element in mind. To complicate things further, Gro and Tog are turning into words similar to Keeper where there is enough diversity in the decks that the word itself doesn't do a well enough job to explain what deck really consists off. Grow simply means that Dryads are present and Tog is likewise with Psychatog.

In an effort to sumup these decks in today's metagame, maybe we could simply refer to the control builds as HulkGro, and the aggro builds as AgGro?

Edit: Removed 'w' from Gro \n\n

[Hyperion]

Re: Wasteland

Some comments have been made about my inclusion of Wasteland in the list of environment-defining cards. Mainly, that Wasteland is not "core to archetypes, or omnipresent otherwise" and "sometimes it's not enough since it doesn't stop the initial activation of Bazaar and Workshop."

Wasteland cannot be considered omnipresent at the moment -but I think the relative lack of it IS definining the environment. I cannot think of a better way to explain the fact that Hulk is being played less at the same time that Dragon has ascended to be one of the best decks in the format. Or, that Keeper stands to be in good shape in the post-Mirrodin metagame while Hulk's playability may depend in part on how good Keeper is. Or, why Welder MUD replaced Stax over time as the artifact prison deck of choice for many. A common factor here is that the absence of Wasteland is why the metagame is the way it is, and that as it continues to evolve Wasteland will become an environment-defining card because of its omnipresence rather than its absence.

As for the points made by Grand Inquisitor, that Wasteland is sometimes not enough to stop Bazaar or Workshop and that it doesn't win games by itself - couldn't the same be said about any of the other environment-defining cards as well?

Re: GAT

I was initially going to mention something about it along with Hulk, and in hindsight I probably should have. With that said, I am reluctant to use results from a single tournament as a barometer for the current metagame, and while it performed impressively at Waterbury that same level of success has not yet come anywhere close to being duplicated elsewhere. In the past month it has been virtually absent from the Top 8 brackets in Europe, and in the US I have only seen successful reports playing this deck from Grand Inquisitor (who was one of the two that T8'd with it at Waterbury) and a Top 8 showing here.

This does not necessarily excuse the lack of discussion on it in the opening post, especially considering that other potentially less viable decks were touched on. Perhaps a seperate discussion on this archetype is necessary to bring others up to speed on it, if it is in fact as competitive as people are letting on here - what metagame factors make it competitive where Hulk isn't, its matchups against other top tier decks, etc. (especially if the archetype is as complex as leviat lets on in his reply). And possibly a discussion of the aforementioned 'Isocontrol' archetype - which I confess to knowing little/nothing about - as well. If this discussion serves as a springboard for discussions of these archetypes, as well as those brought up by bebe earlier on, I would say it has served its purpose admirably.\n\n

[Dante]

Quote (Hyperion @ Nov. 20 2003,18:27)Re: GAT

I was initially going to mention something about it along with Hulk, and in hindsight I probably should have. With that said, I am reluctant to use results from a single tournament as a barometer for the current metagame, and while it performed impressively at Waterbury that same level of success has not yet come anywhere close to being duplicated elsewhere. In the past month it has been virtually absent from the Top 8 brackets in Europe, and in the US I have only seen successful reports playing this deck from Grand Inquisitor (who was one of the two that T8'd with it at Waterbury) and a Top 8 showing here.

Well, What big tournaments have there been since Mirrodin was legal?? Kansas City, Waterbury, and Eindhoven 10/26.  

KC had 1 Gro deck, Waterbury had 2, and Eindoven had 0.  2/3 ain't bad.  If you look at little closer back, the previous 2 Dulmen's each had 1 Gro Top 8.  I think we'll see how things pan out with the East Cost Mox tournaments this weekend and next, along with Crazy Con2 and Eindhoven all in the next 2 weekends.  Certainly better than Hulk, which has 0 top 8's of the above mentioned tournaments.  Of course I wonder if that has to do with the deck or the fact that Dragon and Long are the decks that are "in style" at the moment.

Also, to all, it's Gro, not Grow.  It's based on the Miracle Gro ™ product, which has no "w".

Bill

[Smmenen]

And how many workshops have been in those top 8s?  If anything, that shows that Gro is a better deck than Workshop Prison.

Steve

[Dante]

Quote (Smmenen @ Nov. 21 2003,11:20)And how many workshops have been in those top 8s?  If anything, that shows that Gro is a better deck than Workshop Prison.

Steve

or at the very least solid.  I agree on the workshop decks, it seems like the prison decks were a step behind.  I think that most people were sticking in 3-4 Chalice to existing MUD decks without doing much testing of other new cards or interactions (notable exception is the one that incorpated Damping Matrix, a good maindeck inclusion in a field top-heavy with Dragon).

Bill

[MolotDET]

Quote (Smmenen @ Nov. 21 2003,11:20)And how many workshops have been in those top 8s?  If anything, that shows that Gro is a better deck than Workshop Prison.

I find this statement very misleading.  The truth is that Workshop decks very often make up a small percentage of the field and only luck seems to keep them from winning.
     Taking a look at extended, decks that could be workshop based are ruling that format and these decks become even stronger with the addition of the type 1 card pool.

  As Dante said,

Quote most people were sticking in 3-4 Chalice to existing MUD decks without doing much testing of other new cards or interactions

    This tells the tale.  For the first few weeks, people were content to just add their Chalices but as time went on they are finding more and more toys from Mirrodin.  Perhaps even that avenue has not been fully explored.  Thankfully, Workshop decks do not win on turn one or two, but they are capable of setting up a position that makes it hard for other decks to win against.
     In the less than two weeks since Waterbury, I have been testing a few Extended type Workshop decks and all I can say is, "Wow."  Through the use of some of the best disruption in the format, these decks are able to buy a few extra turns, which is all they really need to get things going.  I have also noticed that the decks really have very few, if any, bad match-ups.  And with the addition of very few sideboard cards, these matches become much more tenable.

On Wasteland:

     Outside of control Strategies, Wasteland is not a very prevalent card.  With the exceptions of Fish, OSE and Keeper, Wasteland is not often used.  In a Meta of ultra-fast combo decks, Wasteland stands out as only part of the arsenal of hate that control must incorporate into their strategies.  But as stated before, Wasteland is not the catch-all answer to many of today’s decks.  The truth is that one activation of Bazaar or Workshop is often enough to give the dragon or Stax player what they needed and then it is still up to the control player to be able to follow it up with more control.
     Using Wastelands also puts the control player in a position where they take an added turn or two to get Mana Drain on-line.  Now while Force of Will might be the glue for the format (and I no-longer think it is), control strategies need to get their other counterspells out of the box to remain on top.  The other problem with control right now is that these decks are competing for the same spots.

Waterbury Coverage
Waterbury top8

     If you look at Waterbury as a model (just as a for instance), of nearly 50 control type decks 5 made the top 8 (1 Gay Fish, 1 Gay/r, 2 Gat and OSE).  So of these control decks that made the cut, only one of the guys playing a lone Stripmine made the finals.  Even in the game in which Ben drew his Stripmine, it didn’t make a difference because dropping another Bazaar and using it once was all that Adam needed to win the game.  Perhaps you might say that Ben was lucky but there was nothing that the other 3 control decks that played 5 Strips could do against Dragon.
     While the 5 strips might be better against Workshop decks, I have noticed that the only Null Rod is a real house against them.  Sure, after sideboard Energy Flux is great in addition to Wastelands but this is really only an option in decks like Fish, that don’t rely on heavy artifact mana.
     So, will Wasteland become a format defining card?  I don’t think so.  As the format speeds up by minor increments between turns 3 to 1, Wastelands become less prevalent.

[Razor]

I'll discuss some random points as I think of them to write down.  I think Control should generally beat Combo, Aggro should generally beat Control and Combo should generally beat Aggro.

Aggro:Aggro is utterly screwed in the current metagame.  This is a huge change given the historical MTG game of: Rock, Paper, Scissors of: Aggro, Combo, and Control.

Recently, after I crushed a Challice:Keeper player at a local tourney [with one of my Blood Moon Survival variants] we discussed the format.  The shocking part is that he felt Aggro has no place in Type 1.  Ugh.

Aggro is dead because their casting curve is easily disrupted by just three cards.  Kegs and Challice utterly eliminate Aggros cheap spells even while Mana Drain utterly robs Aggro of the option to play mid-sized to high-end spells.

We need to somehow enable Aggro to once again smash Control decks in the face.  Aggro needs to be resurrected with a restriction of Mana Drain.  It would be cool to see fat critters in play once again besides in Combo decks.

Workshops:

Quote For the first few weeks, people were content to just add their Chalices but as time went on they are finding more and more toys from Mirrodin.

Both Lodestone Myr and Mind Slaver come to mind.

Non-basic land hate:I think that Blood Moon is as noteworthy as Wasteland.  Even one use of Bazaar or Workshop can be fatal.  Note that Blood Moon prevents use of broken-lands.  Wastes used to be key cards when Academy ruled the Combo world.  Another reason we're not seeing Wastes as much is probably because of the lack of Aggro decks.

Yawgmoth's Will: It utterly ruins neck-and-neck games.  Restiction does not seem to be enough.

Wishes:Restricting both Burning and Cunning Wish is a must; however, if Yawg-Win is banned then Burning Wish might be ok unrestricted.

LED: hope they leave LED unrestricted so that Madness can survive as a strong Combo:Aggro deck.  Restricting LED to neuter Long would colaterally hurt Madness, much the way that restricting Gush killed burgeoning Gush:Stasis.

Isochron Scepter: It is proving to be weaker than originally thought.  Sometimes it works really really well, other times it costs games in its potential-card disadvantage and because it ain't pitchably-blue.

I still think Challice:Keeper will emerge as the strongest deck.  It is resilient, adaptable, robust, and strong against all kinds of decks.  Challice utterly fixes its old achilles heel: Aggro.

Force of Will:As much as we ever needed it to stop Combo we need it now, if not more.  Combo used to abuse FoW to prevent Control's FoWs from stopping them.  However, neither Long, nor Dragon use FoW due to low number of blue cards.  Dominant Combo today has chosen balls-to-the-walls speed.

For that matter, I don't see much difference between Disruption and Control.  I man, Duress (disruption) is arguably as good as Force of Will (Control).  This leads me to conclude that Suicide Black is actually an Aggro:Control deck of sorts.

Aggro:Control:I am always amazed that people regard this hybrid as blue plus a splash colour such as LandStill and Gay Fish.  In fact, it also includes many so-called 'rogue' decks.

Fish/LandStill: Both are still under-respected despite excellent showings.\n\n

[Matt The Great]

Quote This leads me to conclude that Suicide Black is actually an Aggro:Control deck of sorts

Welcome to the year 2000! Even Rakso has known this for awhile.

Seriously though, your commentary is pretty good. However, I have to ask why you don't consider Madness to be aggro - if you're looking for a 'pure aggro' deck like Sligh or Stompy, I think that's a pipe dream - such decks are basically fated to grow ever weaker as more synergistic cards are printed. Just like Zoo died out when they started printing REAL aggro cards (enabling Sligh's ascendancy, back around 1997-8), strictly aggro decks should start dying out to hybrid decks.

Also, restricting Mana Drain won't suddenly make high-cost cards viable. Having cheap answers to expensive threats is what makes those cards unviable - StP, Force of Will, Drain, and Counterspell ALL keep stuff like Blastoderm from being viable. Mana Drain is the most egregious offender, but far from the only one.

[Smmenen]

My internet connection went down, not the website - nothing would have saved it except writing the post in word and then copying it into the reply.

Here we go.

What I am going to do is break down Each key matchup in Type One as I know it.  The point is to try and glean some sort of tier structure from the mess that currently is type one.  Each little analysis is supported by playtesting - there is no theorizing here.

There is no logical place to start, however seeing as Dragon has captured alot of attention, I'll begin with its matchups.

Dragon v. Mud.  There are a couple of key problems with Dragon for Mud.  The first is that you can't just use any combination of lock parts - it often requires specific combinations.  Tangle Wire + Sphere + Chalice may not do it, but Stax + Sphere + Wire may.  Mud cannot simply sit on Chalice at 2 with not much else and hope to win.  Dragon has too many ways to find a necromancy before another threat pops up.  And Sphere is not terribly effective against Dragon since it plays so few spells - in fact, Dragon only needs to play one spell to win in an entire game. Goblin Welder is also quite awful game one - especially in multiples.  However, it gets much better <a href="http://0-2u.com?go=games" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: games';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">games</a> two and three with Tormod's Crypt, however, you may be dealing with Pernicious Deed at that point.  Necromancy, Duress, and Force of Will all make this entire matchup more tricky.  This matchup is Dragon's Favor.

Dragon v. Keeper.  While there may be alot going on here, and while a match could go either way, Xantid Swarm is obviously very strong.  Dragons FoWs and Duresses can clear the way so that a randomly resolved Animate on Turn two can mean game.  Dragon is also immune to keeper's Chalices. Wastelands don't solve the problem becuase once Compulsion comes down, the squee engine becomes even more powerful and over time, if unchecked, Dragon will almost surely win.  While I think it is a rough matchup for Dragon, Dragon has the upper hand, if only slightly.  

Dragon v. Mask.  My <a href="http://0-29.com?go=games" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: games';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">games</a> in testing both in Columbus and against Rich show that Masks' clock can race Dragons - even without heavy discard (although some discard is needed).  My <a href="http://get-faster.com?go=games" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: games';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">games</a> against richard were 5-4-1 but my testing had mask going something like 55-60% in a much larger game set.  Once in a while Hymn to Tourach would be ridiculous taking away key lands/search/counters/disruption - but other times, it may be too much of a risk.  If you are going first with Mask and you have Ritual, Duress, Hymn - that can work out.  Sometimes Dragon simply can't find a Dragon on time since it may only see 12-14 cards before lethal damage - sometimes you have duressed/unmasked the key reanimate spell so that if Dragon does come up its simply too little too late.  

Dragon v. Null Rod.dec aka Fish.  Dragon has no issues at all with Null Rod.  The biggest problem is actually probably just the combination of Stifle, StandStill, and Force of Will.  Not large problems at all.  

Dragon v. Slavery (For those of us who don't come by IRC very often, this is a Mindslaver deck Steve cooked up).  In 30 or so <a href="http://get-faster.com?go=games" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: games';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">games</a> so far, Dragon wins when it plays first and has sufficient disruption and brokeness to win quickly or be one stop ahead of the Slaver's game plan.  The matchup, however, is in Slavery's favor.

Dragon v. Long.  This matchup is pretty straightforward.  In order to compete the Dragon player must try and combo out quickly.  That is Dragon wins against long win it goes off turn two.  However, this means that since Dragon is so much slower than Long, Long may want to slow the game down just a bit to maximize its power.  To illustrate Dragon's plan, in KC, richard sbed out 2 squees.  This suggests that he wants some squees so that if he is aggressively using bazaar he won't be totally mauling his hand with card disadvantage, but he isnt' relying on winning with the squee engine.  The fact is that Xantid Swarm solves lose SB problems by stopping FoW and Stifle and Long just overpowers dragon.  I think Dragon really needs Chalices to compete - and even then, I don't think its pretty.

Long v. Keeper
The analysis here isn't significantly different from that presented in my articles facing Tog.  The differences are that it has lost Duress for the weaker Wasteland + Shaman contingent.  Why is wasteland weaker?  Becuause smart long players against keeper do not drop their lands unless they a) have two lands in hand b) plan on winning this turn or c) want to play a key card like xantid Swarm or duress.  Shaman is often just too slow.  The best threat is really chalice of the void instead of duress.  While this is indeed a significant threat, keeper can't always cast this on turn one and so you'll have a chance to win or duress it - and even if they do resolve it, they may incorrectly play it for zero and then you just go off and win.  Or if they play it for zero you may be able to resolve a Swarm and create a stalemate which you'lll end up winning.

Long v. Mud.  This is the matchup i fear the most on the strength of Sphere of Resistence.  Although I can win if Sphere resolves and I can also break serve better than Mud can, a match is only three <a href="http://get-certified.net?go=games" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: games';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">games</a>.  If they win the coin flip and have turn one Sphere + chalice <a href="http://go-acct.com?go=games" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: games';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">games</a> one and three, it sucks to be me.  All the other cards are irrelevant.

Long v. Mask.  Masks SB plan may bolster the overall matchup with Chains and Chalices, but discard is not enough to stop Long - even brutal discard with a short 2-3 turn game clock.  Even if their hand was raped, long could usualy win the turn before mask swung for the final blow.

Long v. Slavery - this may be the one deck that can actually take more than 50% against long - but that remains to be seen.  The combination of key threats along with all the cards Long hates and bombs like Slaver is a real problem.  

Keeper v. Mud.  Keeper is such a good deck against Mud becuase it basically wins if it wastes the workshop, and STPs the Metalworker.  That then makes Mud's symmetrical spells vrey much so - something MUD doesn't want.  Mud wins <a href="http://get-data.net?go=games" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: games';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">games</a> mostly for the reason that keeper didn't have a Force or an STP to stop the first worker.  After board, it gets insane as Keeper brings in Rack and GAME OVER MAN. STPing a Worker + Wasting a Shop generally means that the Mud deck will be unable to play mutliple lock parts on turn two-three which means that Mana Drain can go active.  Once that happens, Cunning Wish for Rack and Ruin can come into play as well as massive Shaman munching and Decree of Justice.  When that happens, its just not pretty.

Keeper v. Mask - this is one of the best reasons to play mask.  Keeper's weak draw engine put up against Masks brutally fast clock means that the steady stream of threats/discard wins out.  Mask has more discard that Suicide black ever had and is far faster.  

Mask v. Mud (from my article)
Workshop Prison
The prison matchup is really complicated. Much of what determines the outcome depends on who goes first. Mask and Workshop prison are highly opposed strategies. The goal of Workshop prison is to play spells that affect the board by destroying and locking down the opponent. The Mask player attempts to play its primary combo threat as quickly as possible and use the very best discard as key disruption. The biggest key to winning this matchup is winning the die roll. All varieties of Workshop Prison run the five key lock components: Chalice of the Void, Smokestack, Sphere of Resistance, Tangle Wire, and Goblin Welder.

If you go first, you should be able to nab any one of these cards that you perceive to be the biggest threat. But in fact, the biggest threat to them is usually the fact that your game plan attempts to make those lock parts ineffectual, (a side effect of the MaskNought combo is that you attempt to play multiple permanents in the first few turns) but unlike most combo decks, you only need to untap one of them twice: The Phyrexian Dreadnought.

The fact is, if the Mask player goes first, they have likely played at least part of the combo, or accelerated sufficiently that the combo is forthcoming, and used discard to proactively neuter the Workshop player's hand. If the Workshop player goes first, they are going to want to play a key lock part such as a Sphere, Chalice, and Smokestack, with the Tangle Wire getting played on the following turn unless they feel it necessary to play it immediately. For the most part, Smokestack without a Tangle Wire or other heavy disruption is generally too slow. Tangle Wire by itself is also extremely slow. If Mask player goes according to plan with Mox, Swamp, Ritual, Mask, 'Nought with a discard spell or Spoils in there somewhere, Tangle Wire is simply too slow to prevent the MaskNought player from untapping that lone Dreadnought enough times to get Smokestack into a threatened position.

A turn 1 Chalice for one is probably the most effective threat outside of a turn 1 Sphere that can be played if the Workshop player is going first. Neutering Spoils, Dark Ritual, Vampiric Tutor, and Duress means that you probably will be unable to cast a heavy disruption spells like Hymn and be unable to get the combo into play.

The one thing the Mask player must always keep in mind is how the Workshop decks operate. The Workshop decks are built upon the premise of evading the drawbacks of highly symmetrical cards by being permanent heavy and by using a very small, but absolutely critical selection of mana accelerants like Mishra's Workshop. The reliance on these accelerators to play extremely costly lock parts is the real weakness of the Prison decks, because it makes them inconsistent, and moreover, makes them vulnerable to Wastelands.

As such, they attempt to play as many of the artifact accelerants as are available to Type 1 (I call them the terrible twelve) - the twelve restricted artifact accelerants. The reason this is important to keep in mind is that you cannot simply think about how the lock parts are going to affect you - when casting Unmask or Duress, you need to consider how they will affect the Workshop player, should they play any particular part. If you are unable to take a key lock part, then taking away a spell which makes their lock parts more symmetrical is something to keep in mind.

A first-turn Sphere is about as brutal for you as turn 1 Chalice for one. The other advantage of both spells is that they are tappable or saccable to subsequent Wires and Stax. The only advantage of Sphere is that it affects them as well, slowing down their later turns. A Sphere by itself is not even close to being sufficient enough to stop you. Unfortunately, a second Sphere on turn 2 takes them most of the way there. The real key is getting Tangle Wire going followed up by a Smokestack to clear the board (they work very well together - you just move counters from Tangle Wire to Smokestack each turn).

MaskNought has fifteen swamps so that your chances of playing more Swamps is very good. One reason for keeping this deck mono Black was to keep the deck invulnerable to Wasteland - a trait that really shows up in this matchup, the Keeper matchup, and the Welder Mud matchup.

The good news is that Meditate is really risky for the Stax player. The bad news is that Meditate radically increases their chances of finding more Tangle Wires. If you have a decent draw, their best shot is really to mise into a second Tangle Wire, followed by Smokestack. I have also found that Phyrexian Negator is a very good card in this matchup if played following some heavy disruption. Hymn to Tourach is incredibly conditional against the Workshop decks. One of the key elements to these decks is getting the mana they need to make their lock parts asymmetrical - if you have the pressure that this deck has combined with the denial of resources with Hymn - Hymn can just win games.

Finally, one tactic that Stax has at its disposal that Welder Mud really lacks, is the Welder + Draw 7 threat. It plays out like this: They play a Welder and then a Draw 7 with the hope of depositing an artifact in your graveyard. If it works, they can make your combo dead by Welding out your Dreadnoughts and then systematically destroy the rest of your artifacts by welding the Naughts back in. After sideboarding, it gets worse for you, as Rack and Ruin is incredibly strong.

Welder Mud is very close to Stax in many respects, but it lacks many of the advantages that Stax has in this matchup, and compensates for this by one big bonus: Powder Keg. Powder Keg is obviously a brutal threat to this deck for two reasons. First, it quickly kills Dreadnoughts. The Second reason is that in combination with a Goblin Welder they can keg away one of your Moxen and suddenly you'll find your entire combo worthless with Goblin Welder, making your Dreadnoughts dust.

The disadvantages are as follows: In most matchups, the Welder Mud game plan often relies on playing a turn 1 Metalworker off a Workshop, followed by a brutal unloading of combo parts - Wires, Stax, Spheres, Chalices, and cards like Grafted Skullcap. The vast majority of the time, this plan is far too slow to win against MaskNought. The reason is simple: You have (or attempt to have) most of your combo, if not the whole thing, in play by turn 1. If the Smokestack goes active, start sacking swamps, but try and avoid sacking Moxen or combo parts because if they have an active Welder your combo is toast.


If you go first and you have the Mask, most of the cards that Welder Mud could play become much worse - and the problem is that the few key lock components that still retain their strength: Tangle Wire, and Goblin Welder with Powder Keg, are harder to find because you have a much worse draw engine than Stax.

The reason is rather straightforward - Welder Mud attempts to slow the game down instead of playing massive card drawing spells, and then lets Grafted Skullcap do its job. If the Mask deck is playing first, the biggest threat is Tangle Wire, followed by another Tangle Wire and Smokestack. That is as close to unwinnable as it gets when you are playing first, because at that point, both Chalice and Sphere are too slow and Goblin Welder does nothing by itself. Also, Grafted Skullcap is almost laughable if you have a 'Nought on the board. Stax has a much better shot of "breaking the serve," so to speak, because they run massive draw spells like Timetwister and Meditate.

When all is said and done, don't keep a hand that will lose when playing first, and win the die roll.

Conclusion:
If Going First, Favorable.
If Drawing, Unfavorable.
On the Whole, Slightly Unfavorable. The Workshop deck will "break serve" more often than you will - but even if going second, you still can win the match.

Sideboarding suggestions. I don't have all of these perfectly ironed out, but one big threat you must expect is Rack and Ruin. This card costs three, but is an absolute beating in Type 1 right now. This card can also take down your whole combo at instant speed. One way to beat this card is Lightning Greaves. It will also make your 'Noughts Welder-proof and possibly give them haste and speed up the win.

Something you need to keep in mind is the enormous difference between playing first and second. If you are playing first, I would seriously consider sideboarding in Chalice of the Voids for the Hymn to Tourachs. The reasoning is simple: It is another permanent that taps down to Tangle Wire, but also makes their spells far more symmetrical by negating most of the non land accelerants like Black Lotus. With a deck as heavily oriented towards the first three turns as this one, Chalice seems like a solid choice for slowing down the opponent just enough so that they cannot recover.

I'm too tired right now as it is nearly 3 am.  I'll finish the matchup analysis at some later date.

EDIT: Expanded Matchup Analysis
The one deck I still need to test is Neo-Tog.

Steve\n\n

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Type 1 should be combo, and combo hate, period.  And if you take a close look at the current decks to beat, I think you'll find that is exactly the case.  If you want a breakdown of the metagame ala the old "rock, paper, scissors" you first have to start by classifiying each deck by whether they are themselves combo, or combo hate.

Fish: combo hate
chalice keeper: combo hate
Long.dec: combo
dragon: combo
workshop: combo + combo hate

Basically, every deck that is neither combo, nor combo hate, has become unviable and has dropped off the metagame and cannot seriously be considered to be a deck to beat.

[Bastian]

That's yet another proof of how distorted the metagame currently is, and that it should be dealt with. Hopefully in a couple of days we'll see if that actually happens or not...

[Razor]

Quote Type 1 should be combo, and combo hate, period.

Wow.  I can but humbly disagree and pray that Wizards gives Aggro a chance once again.

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Quote (Razor @ Nov. 28 2003,20:47)

Quote Type 1 should be combo, and combo hate, period.

Wow.  I can but humbly disagree and pray that Wizards gives Aggro a chance once again.

I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just calling it like it is.  

With so much acceleration in this format, so many tutors, so much good draw and so many horrible design mistakes that never EVER go away, how can this format realistically be anything but a combo format??  I don't mean to be negative, I really don't.  But now that we've tasted the forbidden fruit of really good tier 1 combo, we aren't gonna go back.  Mark my words, type 1 deckbuilding will focus on combo more and more from this point forward, be it in trying to optimize the perfect turn 1 pure speed combo, or tuning a combo hate deck to be as flexible as possible so it can have an advantage when it's up against other combo hate decks.  Combo is here to stay, now and forever unless WotC does something VERY drastic to the format.

But...this isn't necessarily bad.  Many people actually like playing in this kind of environment as proven by the high attendence at large tournaments like Waterbury.  The format continues to grow and people are still not turned off by abominations like long.dec.

I know it's been said before by many people who were just saying it to be pricks, but in all seriousness, my advice to anyone who dislikes a combo format, ie. a format defined by tier 1 combo, is to play something other than type 1.  Type 1.5 is actually my favorite format in large part because the kind of degeneracy that exists in type 1 simply does not exist there (well...that's not entirely true...i recently ruined that format by introducing Spoils Dragon, but that's neither here nor there).

I hope all of you realize that I'm not saying these things because I'm "sick of whiners" or because I'm "an elitist asshole", but rather I'm saying these things because I, like many of you, used to think we should avoid a combo-winter-like state.  I thought such a state was a degeneration of magic and bad for the "game".  Now I realize that combo-winter is the natural way of things in type 1, and, more importantly, people like it that way.  Those of you that do not enjoy combo winter really should play other formats because type 1 is not for you.  Again, I'm not trying to be exclusionary, I'm just trying to be realistic.  The card pool has too many combo pieces for things to be otherwise.  That said, there are plenty of good combo hate decks.  Fish, Chalice keeper, and I'm sure there are many others.  

In other formats you play aggro, or you play control, or you play aggro-control.  But in type 1, it's a combo format.  You play combo, or you play combo-hate, or you play combo/combo-hate.  THIS IS THE NEW TRINITY.

I hope this post opened a few eyes if nothing else.  Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just calling it how it is.\n\n

[Bastian]

I don't disagree with you. I disagree with the state of the format being the way it is. In extended they banned cards until Necropotence became too good to be left around (although it was always too good either way). In type 1 we should do the same. Restrict cards until the format is healthy again.

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Quote (Bastian @ Nov. 29 2003,02:44)I don't disagree with you. I disagree with the state of the format being the way it is. In extended they banned cards until Necropotence became too good to be left around (although it was always too good either way). In type 1 we should do the same. Restrict cards until the format is healthy again.

I really do believe that what you are proposing is impossible Bastian.  Restricting degenerate cards still leaves too many in the format for it to ever go back to non-combo.  It's time people realized that WotC has left type 1 to be a combo defined format, that's just the way things are.  If you want to play decks that don't have to worry about losing on turn 2 but you still like to play with older cards then I urge you to play type 1.5, that's what it's there for.  

And now that I think about it, WotC probably did foresee the eventual degeneration of type 1, it really just has too many broken cards that can never go away.  This is why they created type 1.5, so that when type 1 gets so bad that it is just combo, people have another outlet for kirdapes and other old cards.

[Bastian]

True. But I'm left to wonder what's the fun of playing in a format where you can lose or determine the outcome of the game in a couple of turns. It's stupid mindless.

It's true that type 1 will eventually reach critical mass in which there'll be so many good cards that no matter wether they're restricted or not, excelent decks will prevail.

Even so I believe that it's currently possible to lower the power level of the format to make certain decks less dominating than they currently are.

[Smmenen]

I think its more complicated that people are letting on.  The format is skewed towards SPEED, not necessarily combo - that is a key distinction.

In my article on why workshop should not be restricted I tried to show how Workshop is a key part of the new triumverate of Combo, Control, and Prison.  You can't really slow the format down, but you can take away the imbalancing elements.  

I completely disagree that the format is stupid when many matches are decided in the first few turns.  In fact, I think a consistent turn two combo deck is perfectly fair - what is not fair, is a deck that does it consistently on turn one.  

Stephen Menendian

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Workshop could easily be considered a varient of combo, it's a very blurry line when you begin to realize that workshop decks strive to win based on assembling their combo pieces (eg. welder + mindslaver) much the same way dragon does (animate + bazaar).

I think the key difference between workshop and dragon is that workshop is a slower less consistent combo and so it has to rely on disruptive measures like sphere of resistance and chalice of the void.  Because of this, I would group workshop as combo/combo-hate within the scope of the new trinity (analogous to aggro-control in the old way of looking at things).

I agree with you steve in that there is some balance, and that the format can have balance; this is in large part because the hate cards happen to be very strong.  If sphere, chalice and null rod were to suddenly disappear, and no similar effects were ever printed,  I think balance would cease to be a possibility and combo would dominate (not just define the environment as it does currently).

Regarding the stupidity of the format: I also don't necessarily think it's stupid per se; afterall black jack, texas holdem, and other non-magical card games you might see at a casino are all played and enjoyed by many people.  Type 1 has just become more like black jack or poker in many cases than like what we'd expect MTG to be.  It is only when 2 non combo (ie. combo hate) decks are paired up that you see old MTG as it was intended in other formats.  Again, if you have a problem with this, type 1 is probably not the format for you.\n\n

[Azhrei]

Prison will never be a steady part of the metagame because the turn one combo is right around the corner and will simply be too fast for anything not packing FoW.

Of course, that won't matter because the combo deck will be blue.

I think we're only a set or three away from Vintage being like High Tide season in Extended, where combo decks have to start being metagamed to beat the mirror match and just walk over everything else. It gives me a little artistic tingle all the way down my spine. I can hardly wait!

[Smmenen]

Well, it's difficult to see the metagame dynamic becuase all the combo decks have consolidated into two primary forms - which are so widely different that to say Combo is one thing is oversimplification.  In my Preview of the Gencon metagame I talked about how multiple combo decks usually don't exist in the same metagame - however, Long and Dragon really perform incredibly different functions.  Long is the surviving pure combo deck and replaced Rector.  Dragon is a combo deck that doesn't stall out ever if you screw up and is better against slower decks becuase it gets stronger as time goes on.  Ironicaly workshop prison is better against the former and worse against the latter.

If I expected a field of Academy and Long I would play Workshop Prison ALL DAY LONG on the strength of turn one: Chalice of the Void + Sphere of Resistence = Game Over

Steve\n\n

[Bastian]

Quote  In fact, I think a consistent turn two combo deck is perfectly fair - what is not fair, is a deck that does it consistently on turn one.

Isn't that a whole big difference...  

Magic is a game that's meant to be played between human players, therefore it requires interaction. When that interaction is reduced as much as possible, then what's this? A solitaire card game?

Prison and combo are decks that hardly estimulate player interaction. It turns games into one-player games. It really doesn't make sense, and it makes even less sense that there's actually people that don't matter this happening.

Sure that not all metagames allow for fully powered decks to exist. Not everyone can build a fully powered prison deck, or Long, etc... but there are environments where this is possible, and most players who dedicate themselves to type 1 have always a fully powered environment in mind.

Type 1 is on the verge of becoming degenerate. It that hasn't already happened... Let me repeat: degenerate. This isn't a compliment. It means the state of the format became unplayable, and too stupid to be good. The only thing that type 1 is currently achieving is the point of no player interaction.

Furthermore... I wouldn't mind playing t1.5 if I didn't like type 1 better. Why? Because it gives access to cards that I may have or want to use, and the same applies to other players who might have full sets of power, who want to play with them and dislike the state of the format. Are you going to suggest that them too should bow down to a game that doesn't stimulate player interaction and longer games?

Where's the fun of ending a game in a couple of turns..? It's like... "duh"!!

[Smmenen]

I think it makes all the difference in the world.  Dragon is almost incapable of winning on turn one - which is why its such a good combo deck for type one.  Any deck that has a whole turn two respond has a chance to drop Tormod's Crypt, to bring in Gaea's Blessing (which slows the game down), Coffin Purge, STP, Blue Elemental Blast.

I think it makes a huge difference.

Steve

[Bastian]

A whole turn can make a difference yes... But what I was saying is that there's really not much difference between winning in turn 1 or turn 2. What happens is that you have an extremely short game with no player interaction at all.