REMINDER!!!!!

[Zelif]

Quote (thorme @ Nov. 05 2002,04:24)Apparently, some folks think that an increase in the number of decks at Tier 1 is a bad thing, and cry "broken" or "ridiculous mistake".

Its not like TnT or Mask are Tier 0 decks, which beat everything else.  Either one of these decks is probably somewhere around 50/50 with Keeper.  Why does that merit the restriction of a card?

Thorme, I watched several of your matches, and think that several players there underestimated what you were doing.

Exploiting Dreadnought is fine. Can you not say its broken? Would you not agree? I'm not crying foul at all, just stating an opinion. MW should make its way back on the restricted list. Other than that, I loved the variety of decks, and wish the Keepers had shown more diversity. As far as restriction, I am speaking very specifically now, of only one card: Mishra's Workshop. If not, why restrict Sol Ring? Black Lotus is an even better one, since it, like Dark Ritual, and Lotus petal, "goes away".

Darren A. Dew

[Matt The Great]

Because:
1) all of the mana from those other artifacts is far too easy to use. Combo decks like Academy or even Underworld Dreams would explode with the unrestriction of any of "The Seven".
2) Workshop costs you a land drop.

If Sol Ring said "T: Add Two mana colorless mana to your mana pool. This can only be spent on . You may only play one more artifact this turn." it probably WOULDN'T be restricted. But a deck with four 'real' Sol Rings could puke out combo engines FAR too easily. Bargain on turn two. Dream Halls on turn two. Either of them on turn one with Land+Mox or Lotus. Memory Jar turn one. Even something as mundane as "Land, Mox, Ring, Ring, Timetwister" is INSANELY hard to beat.

Workshop does not fuel combo decks (unless you can call Masknought a combo deck, and even then it's suboptimal). Moreover, Workshop can't be used to accelerate out Abyss or something from a control deck like any of the other mana producers you mention can. So don't try to use any other mana producer in your argument, you'll only end up getting egg on your face.\n\n

[thorme]

Quote (Zelif @ Nov. 05 2002,08:41)Exploiting Dreadnought is fine. Can you not say its broken? Would you not agree? I'm not crying foul at all, just stating an opinion.

I can respect your opinion, although I disagree.  It seems to me that you've stated a solution (Restrict Mishra's Workshop) without stating the problem.  Exactly what problem currently exists that the restriction of the Workshop would solve?  I think the game is at a wonderful place now, with both aggro and control represented at the highest tiers.

As for the Dreadnought combo, I can certainly agree that it is a very strong interaction between 2 cards that I'm sure Wizards didn't anticipate when designing Dreadnought.  Still, I'm hesitant to use the word broken since it is a 2-card combo that can easily be played around.  The deck and combo is very vulnerable to spot-removal (both creature and artifact) so decks with Plow, Disenchant, Naturalize, D. Blow, Gorilla Shamans, etc. all have at least a fighting chance against it.  In the Tournament, it was made clear how vulnerable the deck was to Pernicious Deed, that's for sure.

[Radjammin]

Hey Matt,
  There aren't any Workshops in Mask. They are talking about TnT.

I don't remember anyone screaming about how broken the workshops were when they were in Stacker or thouse other decks.  It's not untill someone made a really good deck in TnT that now they cry foul.  The deck is good and wouldn't work near as well without workshops to drop the Tubbies.

Besides the workshops don't help you cast, welder or use the survival.  They just allow the inital onsalught.  Is that what you think is broken?
Besides, not every matchup is Great for Tnt.  I am sure it has bad matchups.  If anything the field is more blanced now because of these decks.

Stompy will still try to kill you.
Sligh will still try to burn you.
Black will still try to make you discard.

TnT just abuses how little creature removal most decks carry.  Maybe TnT will just make people pack more creature removal.

[Anonymous]

I'll take a shot at Eric Wilkenson, stupid white weenie whore! I counter your rod with my mystical sol ring!! (Only Eric would understand this so I might as well not have posted it anyway) Well know thats out, how about some information on the tnt, was is gru or gr? Any interesting creature choices?

[Azhrei]

Yeah, Eric was telling us how he's been playing White Weenie to punish all the people at NG who do nothing but pack hate decks. Go Eric!

[Radjammin]

What would be funny is if Sligh started packing Welders in their side for Mask.   That would be some funny shit.

Not very usefull but still quite funny.

[Matt The Great]

Radjammin - Yes, I know there aren't Workshops in Mask. But he was trying to make a point that unrestricted Workshop was like unrestricted Sol Ring, and I said "No, because Sol Ring can fuel combo decks, Workshop cannot, unless you count Mask as a combo deck." Sure, it's not GOOD to run Workshops with Mask, but it is POSSIBLE.

[Triple_S]

Both of the TnT decks were GRu with less than 4 cards difference in the main deck (main differences were his use of Genesis and 2 Trisks in the MD and my use of Wonder and Shield Sphere MD).  I anticipated some 'bad' old school decks w/ Moat or the mirror match so I ran Wonder main and opted for Shield sphere since it blocks most weenies and starts up the Welder chain for free.

[Triple_S]

I understand the reasoning behind the argument on the re-restriction of MW (though I would be really pissed considering the $120 I spent on my set of 4) but given the land's narrow scope of use (for only artifacts) and vulnerability (hmm, Wasteland anyone?) I wouldn't think it would be restricted since it doesn't fuel the brokenness...Survival and Welder are the real 'culprits' behind the engine of TnT

[Zelif]

Thanks for the intelligent input, and no thanks for the not so intelligent arguments.
I will follow up by saying that its just a matter of time, in my opinion. I have been saying for about a year now that I can't believe no one has really taken off with the Workshop. Stacker was strong, but had its weaknesses also. TnT is more specific, and Survival takes it to another level. In a Stacker/TnT "campaign", I'd see Stacker almost always coming out on top, so its (TNT's) own weakness, is in its roots.
To take the restriction argument to another angle, lets say that MW produces 3 mana for only enchantments. Creatures? No, it is the strongest it can be, because of the colorless "restrictions" on artifacts.
Someone mentioned Jar, with regard to brokenness with 4 Sol Rings. How many times have you stared at TnT's first turn Juggernaut? How many other cards can provide that? I agree, that I LIKE having a "grown up" Craw Wyrm deck out there. Its fun as hell to play for and against.
I just feel like it will not be allowed to go on too long.

(And Triple S; the other deck had Wonder, also)

Darren A. Dew

PS: Triple S, did you run black at all?

[Azhrei]

I think if any part of TnT were to become restricted, it would be Survival of the Fittest, the most powerful unrestricted draw engine currently legal. The Workshops are very powerful, but they are limited in use and scope, as well as their status as lands.

[Zelif]

Quote (Azhrei @ Nov. 05 2002,22:05)I think if any part of TnT were to become restricted, it would be Survival of the Fittest, the most powerful unrestricted draw engine currently legal. The Workshops are very powerful, but they are limited in use and scope, as well as their status as lands.

Yes, and arguments are certainly valid in every direction. For my two cents (thirty-two?), Survival is a great, consistent Tutor, no doubt, and with the "Yard-boys" (Anger, etc) it sets up a nice engine. The engine, or "series" has many facets, and like Necro Summer, its hard to pin one thing down as the "problem", if there indeed is one.
I was judging my opinion based upon the history of restrictedness, and the generation of those engines. Survival by itself does nothing, except fill your yard, and get you the card you want. It can be said that is worthy of restriction (see Frantic Search), however, Survival definitely requires other action; MW is just a huge turbine engine, creating power.
The "Landness" of MW doesn't seem to limit its restrictive possibilites; Academy? Library? Both of these have limitations of specificity, and Academy is Legendary, to boot!


Darren A. Dew

[thorme]

Quote (Zelif @ Nov. 05 2002,19:47)How many times have you stared at TnT's first turn Juggernaut? How many other cards can provide that? ...
I just feel like it will not be allowed to go on too long.

Now we get to the meat of you argument.  I can see your point, but I disagree that the possibility (I think it lies somewhere between 35% and 55% chance, depending on whether you draw first) of a first turn Su-Chi or Juggernaut from Workshop mana is harmful for the environment.

You could build a deck based around Dark Rituals and Juzams that would have an equally likely chance of busting out a first turn fatty, but would be nowhere as strong as TnT.  It is the Welders and Survivals that make the deck.

Even so, as we all know (or should) Artifact Creatures are the most fragile cards in the game.  How many decks can't deal with a creature or an artifact?  I think it is a good thing that aggro has the possiblity of putting out a 4-turn clock with a big creature.  It is not degenerate.  Other aggro decks will be able to block a Juggernaut or bolt it, and control should certainly be packing anti-creature measures (assuming they can't Force the thing to begin with)

A turn-1 Juggenaut is a great play, and TnT is capable of pulling off that start with some regularity, but I still fail to see how this is creating an unhealthy Type 1 metagame.

[Radjammin]

A 6/6 for 5 mana that can regenerate and change color
A 6/6 for 4 mana that can morph
A 8/5 for 6 mana that regenerates and tramples
A 3/4 for 3 mana that can be killed by balance.
A 3/4 for 5 mana that taps to draw 3 cards.

I don't think R & D think creatures can be broken. (either do I)

Maybe your argument about survival is a vaild one, but as it deals with creatures and it wasn't untill ReSlur was the best deck in Extended that it was banned, it might be hard to convince the DCI of that.

Just my ignant opinion...

[Zelif]

Quote (thorme @ Nov. 06 2002,08:19)

Quote (Zelif @ Nov. 05 2002,19:47)How many times have you stared at TnT's first turn Juggernaut? How many other cards can provide that? ...
I just feel like it will not be allowed to go on too long.

Now we get to the meat of you argument.  I can see your point, but I disagree that the possibility (I think it lies somewhere between 35% and 55% chance, depending on whether you draw first) of a first turn Su-Chi or Juggernaut from Workshop mana is harmful for the environment.

You could build a deck based around Dark Rituals and Juzams that would have an equally likely chance of busting out a first turn fatty, but would be nowhere as strong as TnT.  It is the Welders and Survivals that make the deck.

Even so, as we all know (or should) Artifact Creatures are the most fragile cards in the game.  How many decks can't deal with a creature or an artifact?  I think it is a good thing that aggro has the possiblity of putting out a 4-turn clock with a big creature.  It is not degenerate.  Other aggro decks will be able to block a Juggernaut or bolt it, and control should certainly be packing anti-creature measures (assuming they can't Force the thing to begin with)

A turn-1 Juggenaut is a great play, and TnT is capable of pulling off that start with some regularity, but I still fail to see how this is creating an unhealthy Type 1 metagame.

Thats not really the "meat" of my argument, if I ever had an argument. I'm glad you only listen to the parts you want to hear, but ignore the "I like having a variety of decks" and "I like there being a grown-up Craw Wurm deck out there" parts of my "argument".
And, likewise, you say that a first turn Su-Chi/Juggs is not all that dangerous, and then immediately compare it to Negator/Juzam (did you really say Juzam?) via Dark Ritual. Besides, Forcing a Juggy doesn't really do much since you just explained to me the Welder/Survival is the key. I could swear I already also said that Welder should have been worded like Mox Monkey, "non-creature artifacts" and all. Yes. Welder is tough, and Survival is heck. Justify restricting either, and I'll be amazed.
Anyway, I'm just waiting out the tournament report(s). In six months, we'll see where MW lay.

[thorme]

Quote (Zelif @ Nov. 06 2002,08:33)Thats not really the "meat" of my argument, if I ever had an argument.
...
And, likewise, you say that a first turn Su-Chi/Juggs is not all that dangerous, and then immediately compare it to Negator/Juzam (did you really say Juzam?) via Dark Ritual.

Well, since you have repeatedly refused to answer the question, "What problem exists that restricting Mishra's Workshop would solve?", I am left to having to infer the meat of your argument.

Yes, I really said Juzam.  In case you missed it, my point was that first turn large creatures are nothing new, and that it is just as easy to get out a Juzam as a Juggernaut.  Despite this, Dark Ritual has not been nor should be restricted. It is not the large creatures that make TnT a great deck, otherwise Stacker would have been dominant for some time.

There is only a single deck at Tier 1 which uses Workshops.  Are you of the opinion that TnT is so dominant that we need to restrict a card simply to rectify this?

[thorme]

For reference, here is a list from a jpmeyer post awhile ago regarding the reasons a card gets restricted:

----------------
1) The Tolarian Academy Rule: If a card creates a degenerate deck, it can be banned/restricted.

2) The Rishadan Port Rule: If a card stifles the environment, it can be banned/restricted.

3) The Black Vise Rule: If a card reduces the game to luck, it can be banned/restricted.

4) The Fact or Fiction Rule: If a card is too powerful in multiples, it can be banned/restricted.

5) The Chaos Orb Rule: If a card creates too many logistical problems, it can be banned/restricted.

6) The Contract From Below Rule: If a card is an ante card, it can be banned/restricted.
---------------

You could make a case for Rule #4, but I still think the proof is in the pudding.  To qualify as "too powerful", its inclusion in a deck must make that deck "too powerful".  I think there exists not such deck now in Type 1.

[Fishhead]

I was explaining to a friend why Gaea's Cradle is not restricted in T1 -- "The format is not about creatures.  No one cares about lands that require creatures to be on the table."  

So, it's a gross oversimplification, but I think it also applies to the MW debate.  "No one cares about lands that are used to cast creatures."  Since thats what the Workshop is for in TnT, its not likely to be restricted.

[Triple_S]

A 3/4 for 5 mana that taps to draw 3 cards.

I am assuming you are talking about Arcanis....he is actually UUU3 to cast I believe.

I have no black in the deck but I have thought of trying the deck out w/ White for Cloudchaser Eagle and Monk Idealist.

I agree with Az on the SotF issue.  That is what makes TnT really potent as it allows you to access your utility creatures easily and allows you to recycle your Fatties (w/ Genesis).

[Zelif]

Quote (thorme @ Nov. 06 2002,10:08)Well, since you have repeatedly refused to answer the question, "What problem exists that restricting Mishra's Workshop would solve?", I am left to having to infer the meat of your argument.
[snip]
There is only a single deck at Tier 1 which uses Workshops.  Are you of the opinion that TnT is so dominant that we need to restrict a card simply to rectify this?

Now that you've gone and goaded me into saying something else, lemme add my LAST words on this. After this, feel free to misquote me all you want. What i said was:
"I think Mishra's Workshop is quickly headed back to the restricted list."
Thanks for all the memories.

Darren A. Dew