T1 Gro

[Anonymous]

This is my first post here.  I live in Melbourne, Australia.  I am trying to promote the T1 format in my local area as it by far the most interesting format available since the terribly bad decision to rotate extended occurred.

I have developed a version of T1 Gro that has had extremely good results against many other T1 decks.  I developed it without the aid of net lists.  Having looked at deck lists since I created my version, I seem puzzled as to the choices made in the deck lists I have seen.

I am interested in feedback from players who have experience in playing and developing T1 Gro (Emerald Alice, Chaplin Gro, etc...).  I understand that people have options, but I have alot of experience with this deck and I know the difference between theory and experience.

This is my cuurent deck listing:

T1 Miracle Gro
==============

Counters (13)
--------
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
2 Counterspell
2 Daze
2 Foil

Draw (6)
----
4 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction

Cantrip (8)
-------
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt

Creatures (10)
---------
4 Quiron Dryad
3 Serendib Efreet
3 Werebear

Utility (7)
-------
2 Boomerang
2 Merchant's Scroll
2 Powder Keg
1 Time Walk

Mana Sources (16)
------------
5 Island
4 Land Grant
4 Tropical Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire

Side Board
----------
4 Annul
3 Propaganda
2 Naturalize
2 Root Maze
1 Powder Keg
3 (Gap that needs to help against Suicide Black)

The current match-up stats are:

Academy -> 90-95% win rate,
Keeper -> 90-95% win rate,
Sligh -> 90% win rate,
Parfait -> 80-90% win rate (not alot of testing yet),
Stompy -> 70-80% win rate,
Dragon -> 65% win rate,
Suicide Black ->40-60% win rate (very draw dependant),
TNT -> 20% win rate (haven't tested with sb yet),

Due to the limited range of T1 players in my area, there are a number of decks that I haven't had a chance to test against yet.

I look forward to some interesting replies  

[Freddie]

It is my personal opinion that you are running to low on mana.

If wasteland is NOT popular, then it may feel secure, but just getting 1 mana in opening hand can be difficult with 18-19 mana, and you are running 16!!

Serindib is a good idea, that I am honestly surprised that i have not seen in other Gro decks.

I think that Boomerrang is a wasted slot, and that maybe (for your deck) they could turn into another werebear, and serindib?

I think that you need to really analize your mana base and beef it up at least to 18, if not to 19-20.

Also, Land grant IMHO is inferior to fetchlands, because it can be countered, duressed, and is effected by things like Nether Void and sphere of Resistance.
---------------------------------------------------------------

IMHO, I think that if your Meta is full of aggro, I think that white can be a great asset!

My meta is full of aggro and this is what I played:

Blue: (26)
Brainstorm: 4
Opt/ Sleight: 4 (I tested both, and was mixed (liking both), but played Opt in the tourney that I won with this)
Impulse: 2
Gush: 4
Ancestral: R
Walk: R

FOW: 4
Mis-d: 4
Daze: 2

White: (6)
Plow: 4
Seal of Cleansing: 2

Green: (4)
Dryad: 4

Gold: (6)
Meddling Mage: 4
Mystic Enforcer: 2

Mana: (18)
Lotus: R
Sapphire: R
Pearl: R
Emerald: R
Flooded Strand: 3
Windswept Heath: 3
Tundra: 4
Tropical Island: 4

Sideboard: (15)
Timetwister: R
Phyrexian Furnace: 2
Winter Orb: 4
Compost: 4
BEB: 4
---------------------------------------------------------------

WG dragon exsists in my metagame, and Mono Red is not real popular, so I opted for BEB rather then Chill.

4 Compost may seem exsessive, but I hate losing to Mono Black, especially when bad players play it, and just keep topdecking all of the time, and I was NEVER sorry to see these in that matchup!
---------------------------------------------------------------

In retrospect, I feel that the deck needs 1 more mana source, a Savanah, maybe in place of one of the Seal of Cleansings.

Which BTW I like (the Seal), because UNLIKE the sweet arse Naturalize, it pumps dryad, and can be cast early to get it out of hand, or just simply to pump, even if there are no valid targets, when you need to boost Dryad.

But perhaps to even out the mana and color burden, I would consider losing the last seal for the naturalize, just for less of a white dependancy.

So if I was to play this RIGHT now, it would probibly look like this:

Blue: (26)
Brainstorm: 4
Opt: 4
Impulse: 2
Gush: 4
Ancestral: R
Walk: R

FOW: 4
Mis-d: 4
Daze: 2

Green: (5)
Dryad: 4
Naturalize: 1

White: (4)
Plow: 4

Gold: (6)
Meddling Mage: 4
Mystic Enforcer: 2

Mana: (19)
Lotus: R
Sapphire: R
Pearl: R
Emerald: R
Flooded Strand: 3
Windswept Heath: 3
Tundra: 4
Tropical Island: 4
Savanah: 1

Sideboard: (15)
Timetwister: R
Phyrexian Furnace: 2
Winter Orb: 3
Compost: 4
BEB: 3
Seal of Cleansing: 2
---------------------------------------------------------------

I like this deck alot, and it just cooks off just 2-3 Mana.

I also like the idea of the fetches not being able to be duressed or countered (like Land Grant)

I never feared B2B, with 4 gush, and daze, and moxen, I was never screwed under it... although I only played vs mono blue 8-10 times, so your expierence may be different.

--Welcome to the boards.

P.S.: folks around here don't seem to like players claiming a bunch of win %'s vs established deck types.

The %'s could be effected by alot, but mostly by the following:

1. Did your opponent know how to effectively play the deck you were testing against?

2. Did you play a full SB match?

3. Was your opponent using the most "Optimum" build of the deck they were playing

4. Did your opponent know how to play against the decktype you were playing?

5. How many times did you play these match-ups?

-Freddie

[Pegasus Token]

Quote (Freddie @ Jan. 14 2003,10:42)Serindib is a good idea, that I am honestly surprised that i have not seen in other Gro decks.

Also, Land grant IMHO is inferior to fetchlands, because it can be countered, duressed, and is effected by things like Nether Void and sphere of Resistance.

Serendib was tested in Emerald Alice before Acolytec ever posted the deck and we found it to be sub-optimal.

As for Land Grant, this is very metagame dependant in my opinion.  Land Grant is still my choice because I fear Blood Moon and my Enchantment destruction is green.  This means I need to Grant for my basic Forest.  Fetch lands are better for the reasons you listed, so it's really just a matter of what you expect to face.

[Anonymous]

The environment that I play in has a couple key decks.  They are:

-> Suicide Black
-> WG Dragon
-> TNT

While other decks are around, I've found that these decks along with my T1 Gro, dominate the field.

* WG Dragon is extremely strong against everything that has no/low counterspells.

* TNT is very aggressive, which makes control styled decks struggle at best.

* Suicide Black is well rounded.  It's disruption can annoy many of the average combo and control decks.  It also can be fast which keeps it competitive with faster aggro decks.

The number of black decks in my environment means that there is a high probability that in a tornament I will play against a 4 wastelands, 1 Stripmine opponent at least once.  Having white in the deck for STP and Balance is out weighed by the lack of basic lands that T1 Gro with white can play.  No mana equals certain death!

I have found that you must always play the basic land first.  The probability of a Stripmine in hand is lower than one of the 4 Wastelands they could have.  The second land can be the Tropical Island.  Gush in hand protects you from the Wastelends threat.  If you play the deck this way, you can avoid and potentially make them waste a Wastelands.

I must admit that occasionally I have been stuck without 2 land due the fact that I don't always get the opportunity to play a basic land first.

I have seen much debate about whether to play Land Grant or fetch lands.  I believe that Land Grant is more aggresive than using the fetchs.  I personally prefer to place a land, cast Land Grant then respond to my LG with Brainstorm, or vice versa if I start with more than 1 land.  I think this deck is aggressive by nature, so I don't try to defend my card advantage by losing half of the card advantage (shuffle 1 card away or 2).

The arguments made for fetches are valid too.  I think that the environment should dictate this choice.  If I think the field will be mainly black with 4 Wastelands, 1 Stripmine and 4 Duress, I might swap some or all of my Land Grants with fetches.

The Serendib Efreet is powerful.  A 3rd turn Hypnotic Spectre is no match for a 3rd turn Efreet.  Having a toughness of 4 is really strong against sligh and stompy.  If my opponent has a Powder Keg in play, it annoys them that it is not a 2 drop.  I think that playing Morphling in this spot is a bad call.  It is too slow for the faster decks.

I don't understand why Boomerang is a bad call.  It has won me many games against Keeper.  They can believe that they are safe hiding behind The Abyss, but just when they don't expect it, it's in their hand and they are dead.

I noticed that many Gro players have 4 Misdirection in their decks.  It is a great card against many of the good decks in T1.  I have noticed that it is very average against scrub decks, which is why I only play 3.

I am thinking of taking the Fact or Fiction out of this deck.  It might be better to play 1 impulse in this spot.  I don't know whether it's a good idea, but I'm will to try it.

I think that this deck is a challenging deck to play well.  It is extremely rewarding to players who really know how to get the most they can from it.  I have lent my deck to a number of players and watched them play it (including one of the Australian National Champions).  I have noticed that even good players need to learn how to play this deck to its' potential.

I am eagerly looking forward to hearing more responses to this post.  Until then... Ciao.

[Andreas]

A few comments of mine:

I agree with Freddie that Fetchlands are superior to Land Grant for several reasons:
- You do not need to show your hand
- They can not be countered
- They can fetch basic islands
Especially the last point is often forgotten. For reference in my version of UG Gro I run a manabase of 3 Islands, 4 Tropical Islands and 6 fetchlands, and so far it works well. If at all possible I always fetch a basic island first. Of course in my version this works better as I run Ophidians instead of Werbears, and no Serendibs.

The Sideboard:
There are two very powerful strategies you should think about implementing:
1) Include at least 3 Back to Basics. This may sound odd in a deck with only 3 basic lands, but with the 6 Fetchalnds you will see a lot of them most of the time, and you have Gush to 'untap' your Tropical Islands.
2) Include an Oath transformation. This can either be Emerald Alice style (4 Oath of Druids, 1 Spike Feeder, 1 Spike Weaver, 2 Gaea´s Blessing and a Morphling in the maindeck) or just 4 Oath of Druids, two Cognivores and a Krosan Reclamation. The latter has the advantage to kill quicker, and since you only use it against creature heavy decks anyways...

Also, in my opinion Timetwister has no place in this deck.

Library of Alexandria on the other hand has, with 4 Gushes.

Fact or Fiction in my opinion is too expensive for the main deck.

I have been contemplating going down to three Misdirections myself. I am also not very sold on the Foils.

The Boomerangs should be replaced by a Cuning Wish (maybe 2). Wishing for a Naturalize can solve the Abyss problem very well.

For reference, here is roughly the version I am playing at the moment:

4 Quirion Dryad
4 Ophidian

2 Mana Leak
2 Counterspell
1 Foil
4 Misdirection
4 Force of Will

R Acestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Sleight of Hand
2 Opt
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Cunning Wish
4 Gush

R Regrowth
R Time Walk

R Black Lotus
R Mox Emerald
R Mox Sapphire
R Mox Ruby
R Mox Jet
R Mox Pearl
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Library of Aexandria

Sideboard (fluctuating, 16 at the moment):

4 Oath of Druids
2 Cognivore
1 Krosan Reclamation
3 Back to Basics
1 Berserk
1 Psionic Blast
1 Naturalize
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Blue Elemental Blast

[Pegasus Token]

Quote (Guest @ Jan. 14 2003,05:57)This is my cuurent deck listing:

T1 Miracle Gro
==============

Counters (13)
--------
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
2 Counterspell
2 Daze
2 Foil

Draw (6)
----
4 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction

Cantrip (8)
-------
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt

Creatures (10)
---------
4 Quiron Dryad
3 Serendib Efreet
3 Werebear

Utility (7)
-------
2 Boomerang
2 Merchant's Scroll
2 Powder Keg
1 Time Walk

Mana Sources (16)
------------
5 Island
4 Land Grant
4 Tropical Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire

Side Board
----------
4 Annul
3 Propaganda
2 Naturalize
2 Root Maze
1 Powder Keg
3 (Gap that needs to help against Suicide Black)

I'd just like to start by saying I disagree with a number of your card choices.  Those choices are: Counterspell, Daze, Foil, Opt, Serendib Efreet, Boomerang, Merchant Scroll, ONLY 2 Powder Keg, ONLY 9 Lands, Your whole Sideboard except the 2 Naturalize and the Keg that should be maindecked.

First of all, you run Counterspell, Daze and Foil before the full complement of Mana Drains.  This is just unacceptable in my view.  Mana Drain is simply an unfair card and not running them in a deck that has the ability to cast them regularly and to use the mana is beyond my understanding.  Also, Foil is just plain bad.  Please don't play Foil.  Daze, while not a bad card (I really like Daze), does not belong in this deck.  You already have a fairly fragile mana base (especially your version) and you need to get to 4 mana asap, so Daze is just not good for you.

Opt is a bad card.  This slot should belong to Impulse.  Impulse is one of the main reasons I get to see 40+ cards each game.  The extra 1 in the cc is always worth it.  I have never once wished I ran Opt (yes, I used to run Opt and it is very bad).

Serendib Efreet is cool.  It's one of my favorite cards of all time.  It does not belong in this deck.  The 3cc of it tends to jack with your mana curve.  Also, it is taking up spots that could be better filled by Morphling (which you can cast if you run a reasonable amount of lands and you can always pitch him early game).  Please try Morphling (1-2 is good; I like the configuration of 2 as it has proved better) before dismissing it as it is very good in this deck and with Drains you can cast it rather easily (well, not that easily...).

Boomerang is...  well, Boomerang is ass, really.  Just cut these.  There is no reason for them in this deck and they take up the spot of good cards (try lands).

Merchant Scroll...  2 Merchant Scroll at that...  Why?

2 Powder Keg isn't enough in my opinion.  3 seems to do the job in my experience (but then again I have Impulse and am actually likely to see them).  I don't know how you can get by with only 2.  I'd run 4 if I had room (I don't).

9 Lands is sick.  Just plain sick.  Alice used to try that.  It doesn't work.  12 is about the right number because you need to reach 4 lands.  Also, run a Forest to Grant for against Blood Moon so you can Naturalize or y'know cast things.

Your sideboard makes me want to cry, so I'll pretend you forgot to post one.  I recommend running something like this:
4 Oath
2 Blessing
1 Feeder
1 Weaver
2 Woodripper
2 Naturalize
3 Back to Basics

The Oath transformation says that you can beat Suicide now.  It's still not easy, but you should take more than half with that board.

Also, Back to Basics is a requirement for a deck that can run it (and still function regularly under it) in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

I am glad that I have had a reponse to my topic such as the last one by Pegasus Token.  It clearly states some of the issues I have with the listings I continually see on this forum about Gro styled decks.  These comments are exactly what I would to address in hopefully a way that will not offend members of this forum.

One of the things I find interesting is the idea that 4 mana is the target number for this deck.  I see the other versions using Impulse, Morphling and Mana Drain.  Playing these 3 cards sets the deck into a mode that is less agressive than the version I have created.  By being less aggressive, other cards that are orientated toward control such as Powder Keg become more important.  This contradicts the style of play that my version of T1 Gro has.

Clearly there are 4 main aspects to Gro styled decks.  They are:

-> Aggressive questions.  The aim here is to create a problem for other decks to deal with.  Once a problem, such as a Dryad, Werebear or Serendib Efreet is in play, your oppenent is required to find an answer or die.

-> Tempo.  I think that this aspect of the deck is the least understood.  Once a threat is in play, restricting your oppenent from dealing with this threat, forces them into wasting good cards in order to attempt to get to a mid-game.  Cards such as Daze, Force of Will, Misdirection, Boomerang and Foil allow Gro players the ability to immediately hold tempo over slower deck that are trying to break free from the threat that is upon them.  There have been a number of decks over the years that have worked on this theory.  (T2 Blue Skies, T2 Stunted Growth, etc...)

-> Control.  Many of the decks that have traditionally been associated with control have focused on nullifying threats and advantages in other decks.  My version of T1 Gro can perform this task, but it is a secondary aim.  The permission is used to control my advantage as stated in the point above.

-> Consistency.  Cards choices such as Opt and Brainstorm are chosen in this deck as they make this deck more reliable.  Having 1cc cantrips means that the deck's draw correction is immediately functional.  I believe this is 1 of the 2 the main reason why people don't understand how this deck can get away with the mana base that it has.  I don't play with apprentice, which cannot seem to shuffle a deck right.

I don't understand why questions are raised about Merchant's Scroll.  An early Ancestral Recall, or an extra Gush, or one of the many instants in the deck (with no card disadvantage) is excellent.

I really love Mana Drain, but this deck doesn't take advantage of it much.  I believe that needlessly taking mana burn is not a great plan.  I am considering testing with 1 or 2 in the counterspell slot just to see if I will burn more than not.  In the past I have taken lots of mana burn due to this card.  It needs to be treated with respect (just like fire).

As for the sideboard...  I do think that it could do with some refinement.  I just don't like the Oath of Druids conversion.

I would like to make it clear that the point I am raising is that this deck is different to the slower versions that I have seen here.  I have seen people make posts with versions that are closer to mine than Emerald Alice.  Experience has told me that the the suggestions made to these people, such as the ones made to me in this topic, are not the only way of going about building a powerful version of this deck.

I cannot test this deck enough to convince many of the members here that this version of Gro is brilliant.  I need help from people who are interested in learning about the pros and cons of this deck.  If you are a Gro player, try this deck.  I think that you will be suprised to see what it can do.  I had a 3rd turn win with it the other day against a version of sligh.  I do admit that it included a Black Lotus and a Time Walk.

Kind regards to everyone!

[hulk3rules]

Quote (Guest @ Jan. 14 2003,11:57)Academy -> 90-95% win rate,
Keeper -> 90-95% win rate,
Sligh -> 90% win rate,
Parfait -> 80-90% win rate (not alot of testing yet),
Stompy -> 70-80% win rate,
Dragon -> 65% win rate,
Suicide Black ->40-60% win rate (very draw dependant),
TNT -> 20% win rate (haven't tested with sb yet),

I'm sorry, but I just couldn't keep my mouth shut here.  There is no way you're taking 95% of your games against keeper, that is unless you are playing against a bunch of inebriated 9 year olds.  And even if, and that is a huge if, you really are pulling of these insane win percentages against these decks, then let me ask you this:

Why the F*** do you need help from us?

[Zherbus]

Basically what my dear friend is saying is, that on these boards we stay away from win percentages. Firstly, they are often skewed (you should read my article about Keeper players as about 8/10 of them are not good at playing Keeper) and inflated.

Honestly if you are beating the Keeper players in your local metagame, then thats all that matters and may god have mercy of their cute little hards should they continue to pilot Keeper. Honestly, from the brief description you gave of them, they sound like scripted players (meaning they follow a script when they play, and dont actually PLAY the deck, rather than the deck plays itself).

[Pegasus Token]

Quote (Guest @ Jan. 15 2003,20:10)Clearly there are 4 main aspects to Gro styled decks.  They are:

-> Aggressive questions.  The aim here is to create a problem for other decks to deal with.  Once a problem, such as a Dryad, Werebear or Serendib Efreet is in play, your oppenent is required to find an answer or die.

-> Tempo.  I think that this aspect of the deck is the least understood.  Once a threat is in play, restricting your oppenent from dealing with this threat, forces them into wasting good cards in order to attempt to get to a mid-game.  Cards such as Daze, Force of Will, Misdirection, Boomerang and Foil allow Gro players the ability to immediately hold tempo over slower deck that are trying to break free from the threat that is upon them.  There have been a number of decks over the years that have worked on this theory.  (T2 Blue Skies, T2 Stunted Growth, etc...)

-> Consistency.  Cards choices such as Opt and Brainstorm are chosen in this deck as they make this deck more reliable.  Having 1cc cantrips means that the deck's draw correction is immediately functional.  I believe this is 1 of the 2 the main reason why people don't understand how this deck can get away with the mana base that it has.  I don't play with apprentice, which cannot seem to shuffle a deck right.

I don't understand why questions are raised about Merchant's Scroll.  An early Ancestral Recall, or an extra Gush, or one of the many instants in the deck (with no card disadvantage) is excellent.

I really love Mana Drain, but this deck doesn't take advantage of it much.  I believe that needlessly taking mana burn is not a great plan.  I am considering testing with 1 or 2 in the counterspell slot just to see if I will burn more than not.  In the past I have taken lots of mana burn due to this card.  It needs to be treated with respect (just like fire).

As for the sideboard...  I do think that it could do with some refinement.  I just don't like the Oath of Druids conversion.

I would like to make it clear that the point I am raising is that this deck is different to the slower versions that I have seen here.  I have seen people make posts with versions that are closer to mine than Emerald Alice.  Experience has told me that the the suggestions made to these people, such as the ones made to me in this topic, are not the only way of going about building a powerful version of this deck.

I cannot test this deck enough to convince many of the members here that this version of Gro is brilliant.

All 3 or your threats are made useless by The Abyss.  To get around this, you are running an answer in the form of Boomerang.  What I don't understand is why you do not simply ask a more difficult question (Morphling).  Morphling gets around The Abyss and still gets around Moat (like Serendib).  Obviously, to run Morphling you'll need the Mana Drains I suggested, but you do not argue that they aren't good only that you fear mana burn.  With Morphling, you have a pretty good sink. (note that I rarely if ever burn with Drains and I play 4; they're way better than I initially gave them credit for)

As for Daze, I still disagree on behalf of its mana-stunting, but if it works for you, I won't argue the point further.  Foil, however, is BAD.  It just isn't a good card.  As for Boomerang, see what I said about running more proactive solutions to The Abyss.

Consistency is important, indeed.  Impulse adds a great deal more consistency than Opt.  I will concede however that one of the main reasons for Impulse is that it helps you find your Oaths in Games 2 & 3.  After playing with the Impulses since the middle of summer last year, though, I can't imagine playing the deck with the far weaker search card Opt.

As for the Merchant Scroll, they just seem unnecessary to me.  You don't really need the tutoring, though this just may be due to the fact that I see so many more cards than you do because I run Impulse, so if you require tutoring, I won't argue against it.

Mana Drain is taken advantage of in the deck.  You will rarely if ever burn and the boost is just amazing.  Free Kegs... Cheap Morphlings... 1cc dorks for a turn...  It's simply amazing even though it may not seem like it on paper.  I highly recommend that you try it out, I think you'll like it (but maybe not so much since you aren't running Morphling and he likes to come down with Drain mana).

What exactly don't you like about it?  Without the transformation, you aren't going to beat Mask or TnT (and Suicide is much more difficult w/o it as well).

The point  I want to make most clear is that your deck looks a lot (I mean a whole lot) like early, unrefined Emerald Alice.  Then again, if you're really taking 95% or whatever bullshit number you posted from Keeper, don't let me tell you what you're doing is wrong.

As for your deck being brilliant, see above how it is basically the exact list of Emerald Alice pre-not sucking.