U/B Control/Disruption

[xrobx]

Awhile back I wanted to make this deck but never did, as I didn't have the time or money to do it.  Now I have the cards, so I don't need the money, but rarely have the time to play it.  From what I have played of it, I'm finding I run into problems with massive onslaughts of creatures.  I'm considering either adding Nevinyrl's Disk or Powder Keg to the sideboard, and was also given the idea (way back when, by j_orlove) of using No Mercy.  Any other suggestions?  Here is how the deck goes:

Creatures:
4x Shadowmage Infiltrator
2x Morphling
4x Mishra's Factory

Card Search/Draw:
1x Scroll Rack
Rx Fact or Fiction
Rx Skeletal Scrying
Rx Stroke of Genius
Rx Merchant Scroll
Rx Mystical Tutor
Rx Demonic Tutor
Rx Vampiric Tutor
Rx Braingeyser
1x Cunning Wish
1x Trade Secrets

Counter:
2x Arcane Denial
4x Mana Leak
4x Force of Will

Control:
3x Chainer's Edict
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Misdirection
1x Capsize

Disruption:
Rx Mind Twist
4x Duress

Engine/Graveyard Recursion:
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
Rx Yawgmoth's Will
Rx Zuran Orb

Manabase:

Rx Mox Jet
1x City of Brass
3x Swamp
4x Darkwater Catacombs
5x Island
1x Polluted Delta

Sideboard (not really made good yet..needs work):
1x Reins of Power
1x Capsize
4x Unstable Mutation
4x Recoil
2x Serendib Efreet
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Turnabout
1x Fire/Ice


OKAY, my first comment is about the mana base. DON'T worry about the manabase.  I can always change that as I acquire better cards (ie dual lands and more fetch lands), but it works great as it is right now (a bit dependent at times; due to the catacombs). One other thing to note is that NO, I don't own any other power besides the Mox Jet and also I don't own any mana drains.  Now, onto the good stuff.  As you can see, there is a huge element in card drawing here.  Since I don't own power, I don't go off first/second/third turn like a combo deck/mono-U counter deck would.  I run it kind of like a U/B keeper, in that I can deal with any threat they have, but hopefully I get morphling down first, or beat them to death with shadowmages and factories.  The problem here is that the damage I do doesn't go through fast enough to make it a quick game, and since I'm only running 10 counter spells (4 conditional), I don't think I'd win in the long run against a mono-U counter deck.  Some thoughts/ideas on the cards:

Shadowmage: Pretty obvious.  Card drawing and he's a perfect colored creature to fit in my deck.  He also hurts a bit.

Morphling: Win condition.  He owns.

Mishra's Factory: Another win condition.  They start to hurt, can't be countered, and hit the table quick.  They also give colorless mana to my morphling, search cards, and catacombs.

Scroll Rack:  This is my newest addition to the deck.  Just playing around with it to see how it works.  Maybe this could be a free spot??  Lets me switch up usually 5-7 cards, and often gives me the answer I need to deal with bad things.

FoF, Skeletal Scrying, Stroke, Braingeyser, Trade Secrets: Card draw.

Merchant Scroll: Gets me my needed counterspell, cunning wish, capsize, Mis-D and various card drawing cards.

Mystical Tutor: Same as merchant, except it also allows me to get my edicts, yawgmoth's will, ill-gotten gains, and mana sources like mox jet or lands.

Demonic+Vampiric Tutor: Get me anything I want.

Cunning wish:  Gets me that needed capsize, Fire/Ice, recoil, edict, or reins of power.

Arcane Denial: Counter's AND draws me a card.  Seems to be very useful.

Mana Leak: Counters, but is conditional. Great early on, sucks later.

FoW: Self Explanitory.

Edicts: My only way to fight the creatures they drop.  I have chainer's because I often win the long game, and hence, have tons of mana.

Misdirection:  Still have yet to use it effectively.  Possibly because I only have 1??  Rarely has a use except against sui.

Capsize:  Very helpful control later on.

Mind Twist + Duress: Get rid of key cards they have.

Ill-Gotten Gains:  This is a very unusual choice.  It is one of my two ways of accessing my graveyard, and dependent on the type of deck I'm playing against, often has very useful options.  Since my deck has so much card draw/search, I can often rifle through my deck very quickly, use my broken cards/clear paths for my creatures, and then cast this to open up my graveyard for use of broken cards again (tutors, dead morphlings, edicts, mind twist often works well with this card too).

Yawgmoth's Will:  Helps a ton if I'm not doing so well, turns the game around and clears the path for creatures, hurts their hand often, and provides lots of search through the use of tutors.

Zuran Orb:  Strictly for life gaining purposes, since this deck takes awhile to win.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  I've thought of running Time Spiral, as it would through my search cards and disruption/control cards back in my deck, but I'm not sure if it's worth the slot yet.  Thoughts/ideas?

[dtower]

By popular request and after many complaints, I moved this topic. If I stepped on any toes, my apologizes as I know this is outside my normal field, but frankly, it needed to be done and I was the only mod online.

  dt

Edit: Before anyone does complain, please read this line: Arcane Denial: Counter's AND draws me a card.  Seems to be very useful.
  That looks like a 'Nuff Said.\n\n

[Anonymous]

These are just suggestions, but if I were to play this deck, I would move Stroke to the sideboard as a Wish target, as it is a dead draw early on.  The same could be said for Skeletal Scrying and Braingeyser.  Also, you said that aggro was a problem.

So I would try
-Braingeyser
-Stroke of Genius
- Skeletal Scrying
- Trade Secrets
- Mystical Tutor
- Ill Gotten Gains

+ 2 Powder Kegs
+ 4 Impulse

Also
-2 Arcane Denial
+2 Counterspell
(Listing Arcane Denial will get you flamed out of here faster than a fat kid in dodgeball)

In the board I would have more edicts, another Misdirect, Capsize, and Planar Void.
You may want to splash red for Shattering pulse, Pyrokinesis, Red Elemental Blast.

[xrobx]

Quote
By popular request and after many complaints,

grrr.....many complaints??? hmm.....funny, i just posted a few minutes ago...

e2theipi: thanks for the suggestions! greatly appreciated! =)
and you're right about the arcane denial comment. haha, it seems everyone on here is so close minded, its funny really.  just testing the card, and a "mod" moves the topic away from people seeing it because of the thought of playing a card not listed in every other deck.  sure it may suck, but i'll find out for myself first.  its a good thing to suggest to remove it, but its retarded to move a post based entirely because of it.

[PsychoCid]

We don't just bitch about posts because of SIMPLE fact of mention of certain cards.  There is reason behind the supposed wisdom most of us claim to have.

Arcane Denial works against the base of 'Control' deck theory.  You wouldn't play it for some of the same reasons you shouldn't play Memory Lapse: it's not so much a true control card as something used to gain tempo for a short while (what they lose in cards, they'll gain back in a turn--two fold).

[j_orlove]

On Arcane Denial: why reinvent the wheel? You don't need to waste valuable hours of your life to find out just how bad it is.

This isn't just about the Arcane Denial, though. The following cards are all very questionable:
1x Scroll Rack
1x Trade Secrets
2x Arcane Denial
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Darkwater Catacombs
1x Reins of Power
4x Unstable Mutation
1x Turnabout

That, combined with the fact that you're running 19 mana producers (in a control deck) led to a slew of complaints on mIRC when you posted this.

[Anonymous]

The mana base is going to cause you a world of hurt. You need to look at 24-28 re-useable mana sources in a control deck. You want more mana out then your average opponent as it gives you an advantage when countering multiple spells in a single turn. It also makes you much less affected by land destruction. Obviously you want to acquire Dual lands as you mentioned and the fetch lands from Onslaught are pretty good.

You have alot of tutors but don't see to have to much to tutor for. Some card drawing and a little creature removal seems to be about it. None of the sweeping effect cards like Balance, Abyss, or Moat are in your deck to tutor for. I know the last two are quite expensive but Balance is surely affordable. By splashing White you can pickup some very nice cards in Balance and Swords to Plowshares.

If you want to stay in U/B I would look at some of the type 2 MBC decks for ideas since they are currently dealing pretty well with the U/G madness decks which are very quick and can be difficult to control. Mutilate is nearly a Wrath of God for Black if you have 4 or more Swamps in play. Chainer's Edict you know about and it is a good re-useable answer to problem creatures for control.

As someone else suggested Powder Keg is pretty good at controlling early aggro and can disrupt decks that rely to much on Moxes/Artifacts. No Mercy can also take the place of Moat/Abyss if you're on a budget since it effectively kills the early rush of even prot Black creatures.

Arcane Denial, as mentioned, is pretty suspect at this point with the variety of counterspells available. It used to be a decent choice when stacked up against Force Spike, Flash Counter, Spell Blast, and/or Power Sink but you now have Mana Leak, Misdirections, etc.. that fill a similar role while not resulting in card advantage for your opponent. If you were playing some type of lock deck (Stasis, Combo, Solitary Confinement, etc...) it might be a decent hard counter though.

Since your on a budget an Ivory Tower or two can work quite well by buying you a few turns to set up but doesn't combo real well with the Kegs. It's also un-restricted now??? but since it doesn't seem to see much play anymore I guess it doesn't matter Same with Zuran Orb which you already have in your deck.

Trade Secrets maybe in the sideboard versus land destruction but main deck in a non-combo deck you can probably do better.

You could also maindeck the Power Artifact/Grim Monolith combo. Combined with Stroke or Braingeyser it gives you a fairly quick kill combined with all your tutoring/card drawing.

The Scroll Rack can actually work very well when combined with the fetchlands in a control deck. Being able to thin your deck, shuffle, then grab 5-7 new cards is pretty good when your searching for an answer (or Monolith/Power Artifact).

Work at least 1 Ebony Charm into your sideboard to wish for since it wrecks re-animate strategies long enough for you to get setup. Also your going to need something in your sideboard for TNT since the Infiltrators can't get by their creatures to draw you cards.  Hurkyl's Recall isn't a bad sideboard choice since it's wishable or Energy Flux for the second/third game.

[PsychoCid]

Yes, Ivory Tower is unrestricted.  It's not as efficient as it used to be because since decks are now able to attack you on many fronts it is much more difficult to sit on a full hand and wait for an answer.  Moat just isn't the be-all, end-all it used to be

FYI, Arcane Denial is _still_ not viable in decks like Stasis, TurboStasis, or decks with similar theories behind them that would give Arcane Denial some appeal.  If you have Stasis set up (just an example, could be any important piece(s) from another deck where you might want to use it), those extra cards will still do more to set your opponent up for trying to make a break for it than they will to putting them closer to being decked.  If your lock or combo isn't up and you aren't going to have lockdown immediately after, you're still providing more advantage to them than the supposed damage is worth.  The point about better counters like Mana Leak and Misdirection covers it.

[xrobx]

thanks so far for suggestions.  i still havent found the counter i want yet to replace the arcane denials.  counterspell is UU, and i usually dont have the right kinda mana for it.  it really helps early on to have 1B, as i run many non basic/non blue lands.

the idea about the power art+grim mon.  combo;  i've thought about it before....i'm currently running another deck with it, that runs lots of artifact, future sight, and academy.  it wins win academy hits the table within about 2-3 turns.  but, do you think it would be easily viable here to use the combo?>?
thanks for the suggestion, definatly one i should think about...

[ump]

Quote i still havent found the counter i want yet to replace the arcane denials.

How about instead of trying to find more counterspells, which are going to be suboptimal anyways (compared to what you already have), put in more utility cards like the Powder Kegs that you are trying to fit in anyways?  I have found 2 Powder Kegs maindeck in my OSE-like deck extremely useful, especially against the creature rushes you are running into.  Besides, you already have plenty with Force of Will, Misdirection, Mana Leak, and Duress.  I think the key is not rely on trying to counter everything that your opponent plays.  Also, trying to maindeck 1 or 2 Fire/Ice can help out against creatures as well as not being a dead card against other decks.  If you can use 2 for 1 cards like Fire/Ice or Powder Keg, you will end up with the card advantage you need.  Personally, I see the 1 Scroll Rack as somewhat random and would rather see Brainstorms in it's place.  Try Smothers in your sideboard to complement your Edicts (you probably don't need that many to begin with, especially if you use some of the replacements suggested above).  Depending on your metagame, I suggest finding room for Red Elemental Blast, Gorilla Shamans, and Shattering Pulse.  Try adding another Cunning Wish (to make it a reliable resource) and move some of the extra utility to the sideboard so you don't need as many Edicts maindeck, for example.  I won't say anything you don't already know about your mana base.  Hope this helps a little.

[Anonymous]

Wow....
Just how do you plan on casting spells.  You run fewer mana sources then some aggro decks.  And the catacombs are just lame, they suck.  In order to use it you need another mana open, so why not just replace them with underground river (the black and blue pain land) and we can at least not make fun of you for them any more.  And arcain denial is just kinda bad, while you do draw a card, your opponent draws two, and that is two cards to many.  And a question to everyone, how come he can get an account and I can't.  At least any deck ideas I post here make sense and can actually work.  And merchant scroll is not restricted, though I don't think you need anymore search.  And a second cunning wish along with a better sb would help you a lot, and if you got rid of some bad stuff and added some lands, you know, those really common things that you can have more than four of in a deck. Lands are good, add them and remove the crap.

Don´t use other member´s posts to pick fights about the membership policy.If you think you are a worthwhile member, continue posting quality messages. Complaining about others does not qualify for this.
-Puschkin\n\n

[xrobx]

Quote Just how do you plan on casting spells.  You run fewer mana sources then some aggro decks

15 mana sources, + 4 mishras factories is usually sufficient mana to fuck other decks over.  i never run into mana problems, and if you read the part about "dont worry about the mana base" then you wouldnt have concerned yourself with this issue, as you shouldnt.  if i had the cards to replace them, i would.

Quote
And a question to everyone, how come he can get an account and I can't.  At least any deck ideas I post here make sense and can actually work.

i'm not an annoying retard, and how could you know if this deck works if you've never played it? it works great currently, not something i would yet enter in a tourny (as ALL decks need power to be a big contender in tournies), but it works great for local crap.

Quote
 And merchant scroll is not restricted, though I don't think you need anymore search.

strange, i thought it was. oh well.  and for you're right, i DONT need anymore search.

Quote And a second cunning wish along with a better sb would help you a lot,

if you know how to read, you would've read this above ==> the sideboard is not done, it isnt even a sideboard really. i need suggestions for a SB, not comments on how bad this one is, thanks.

Quote if you got rid of some bad stuff and added some lands

could you clarify what BAD stuff i need to ditch please? and stop worrying about the manabase.


ump:  thanks for the suggestions.  do you really think i should run fire/ice with a U/B deck though?? it wouldnt be viable to splash a 3rd color w/o power here, would it??? and w/o dual lands??? i like the utility thinking idea.  my only problem usually is the creature rush but the edicts do a decent job taking care of them...maybe thinking about running masticore over morphling...???  think about it, i've got plenty of card draw to feed him, and morphling is just a big beat stick in this deck.  masticore could ass rape hundreds of little shits all over the place...?


=P

[ump]

Quote do you really think i should run fire/ice with a U/B deck though?

I mention Fire/Ice because I saw one in your sideboard.  I assumed that you got the red mana through the lairs or something, because I honestly didn't even bother looking at the manabase.  That said, I think U/b is definitely viable.  However, I feel that the splash of red can only help.  It might a be consideration after you fix the mana base with dual lands and fetch lands.

[Puschkin]

The comment ybout your mana base will most likely come up again and again because it is truly weak. controllish decks just need more than that, just to be able to cast things with counterbackup for example. I mean, you run even Factories in your mix of nineteen sources, which are highly vulnerable to all sorts of removal!
You say that you haven´t had any problems so far but that is almost unbelieveable. Most likely you played against bad decks with Srip Mines and Wastelands that give you way more time than you should have. And maybe casting Stroke of Genius for 2 cards is enough in your meta but I doubt it.
I suggest just playing with some more mana sources and you will most likely discover that, even if you realy had no problems beforehand, that your performance will have improved, just because you have more options to do each turn.

[xrobx]

thanks for the ideas puschkin! =)

ok, so what do you think i should be dropping? so far i'm thinking:

Creatures:
4x Shadowmage Infiltrator
2x Morphling
-4x Mishra's Factory
+3 masticore

Card Search/Draw:
1x Scroll Rack
Rx Fact or Fiction
Rx Skeletal Scrying
Rx Stroke of Genius
Rx Merchant Scroll
Rx Mystical Tutor
Rx Demonic Tutor
Rx Vampiric Tutor
Rx Braingeyser
1x Cunning Wish
1x Trade Secrets

Counter:
-2x Arcane Denial
4x Mana Leak
4x Force of Will

Control:
3x Chainer's Edict
1x Diabolic Edict
-1x Misdirection
1x Capsize

Disruption:
Rx Mind Twist
4x Duress

Engine/Graveyard Recursion:
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
Rx Yawgmoth's Will
Rx Zuran Orb

Manabase:

Rx Mox Jet
1x City of Brass
1+3= 4 Swamp
4x Darkwater Catacombs
3+5= 8 Island
1x Polluted Delta
note: the land is like this cuz i dont have duals yet, will change with the acquiring of duals

Sideboard (not really made good yet..needs work):
1x Reins of Power
1x Capsize
4x Unstable Mutation
4x Recoil
2x Serendib Efreet
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Turnabout
1x Fire/Ice

need a good sideboard, possibly involving kegs? other stuff? ideas?? no mercy?? --> or would it be better to drop mainboard edicts, mainboard the no mercy's/kegs, and run diabolic edict sideboard??

still got alot of re-organizing to do here, help is greatly appreciated, just please dont flame the deck =P

[Anonymous]

You lost the Mishra's but didn't increase your mana count. More colored mana is good but you really do need at least 24 reuseable mana at a minimum for this type of deck and I've run as high as 30 in U/W control (course that was when Strip and Wasteland were both unrestricted )

3 Masticores is probably a bit much for you to support. With all of your search/Tutor's you could probably cut down to 1 while adding 2 Powder Kegs. Keg is just great against aggro and, when blown at 0 or 1, often wrecks decks relying on artifacts/artifact mana.

Not seeing alot of use for the Ill-Gotten Gains unless you intend to win off the play with counter backup (control will just pickup a Force, Misdirection, and any other blue counter for it's 3). You could lose this to increase your mana count.

Is the Trade Secret's really helping you more then your opponent? (was thinking this was Trade Routes last time I looked at it). This would probably be alot better as an Impulse or Brainstorm. Sorcery speed card-draw is usually pretty bad in a control deck, as is giving your opponent more cards.

With that same sorcery speed drawing reason, and the fact you aren't running Grim Monolith/Power Artifact, I would lose the Braingeyser (you still have Stroke) and replace it with more mana or another Impulse/Brainstorm.

Scroll Rack for the same reason, no combo, could be removed and replaced with more mana.

With the low land count I would probably lose the Zuran Orb for an Ivory Tower since once you start sacking land you are probably not recovering. The Tower may give you enough life, without losing your mana, to gain control.

To up your land count more I would probably lose the Merchant Scroll. This still leaves you with 3 direct tutor effects and lots of draw/search.

Sideboard stuff needs some work as you indicated.

Ebony Charm belongs in the sideboard versus alot of recursion/combo decks. It's even wishable.

If there are alot of Dragon decks in your area Chain of Vapor is really solid as it wipes there side of the board for 1 blue mana allowing plenty of mana for counter backup. It could take the place of the Recoil's very easily. It's wishable and does very well at stopping big Togs, Beserked stuff, and annoying quite a few decks.

Unstable Mutation needs to go as well. You don't have enough creatures to really use it and none of them will last long with a Mutation on them. If your trying to rush control decks instead of out control them you'd probably be better off running Negators in your Sideboard and swapping the Shadowmages out for them.

Serendib's aren't bad but you have Morphlings which are much better. Probably swap these for Dystopia's.

Turnabout and Fire/Ice also don't serve any real purpose. If the Turnabout is just there as a Fog effect then you could run Darkness in it's place or Hibernation/Perish. Fire/Ice, as you said, is just a place holder. It could be another Diabolic Edict or even a Misdirection as a good wishable target.

Reins of Power would probably be better off as another Hibernation or a Mutilate.

I'll try and take a look at the deck again next time you post it and see if I can come up with anymore suggestions

[xrobx]

wow
thanks alot mike! great suggestions!
keep em coming please people!!

what about the whole idea of no mercy?!?!

[Anonymous]

Well No Mercy is an affordable alternative to the Abyss and actually can eliminate creatures quicker (everyone that attacks and can't regenerate dies, even untargetables and Prot Black dies). The downsides are the double black casting cost (which shouldn't really bother you playing U/B) and the fact they can 'store' up creatures and attack for the win. Perhaps as important is that No Mercy kills Artifact creatures and with the popularity of TnT it can win you games that The Abyss will not.

Under The Abyss you can't really store up creatures since you're losing one a turn, with the exception of Prot Black, Artifact, and untargetables. The Abyss also handles regenerators (only one you'd really expect to see is River Boa or maybe Sedge Troll though) which No Mercy does not.

With the advent of Anger to give creatures haste I think the difference between the two spells in lessening. No Mercy will wipe the board of most all attacking creatures and allow an attack back. At best The Abyss eliminates 1 a turn and if they all have haste from Anger The Abyss player is taking the same damage the No Mercy player is.

No Mercy can work pretty good with U/B control decks because you can deny them creatures other ways (removal, counters, Mutilates, etc..). I would try and run an Ivory Tower or two though to offset the lose of life that comes with the No Mercy type of removal. You always get hit once with a creature to kill it with No Mercy but with sufficient life gain (or a Forcefield but that costs more then The Abyss) it works pretty well.

The Ivory Tower also allows you to basically ignore small groups of 1 or 2 power creatures if you have a No Mercy out as long as you are gaining sufficient life to offset the eventual rush. You can conserve more counterspells or wait for an even more effective Mutilate. Just watch out for things like Goblin Piledriver

You could swap out a Chainer's Edict to fit in a No Mercy and give it a try. I've always had access to The Abyss in my type 1 decks (started playing when Legends was out) but I did like No Mercy in a couple of my, at the time, type 2 decks.

[xrobx]

do you guys think this deck would ever be a viable contender in a t1 tourny?? (lets say i was able to pick up mana drains and possibly a bit of p9; borrowed of course)

i would definatly have the element of suprise, which won me the tourny for the mox jet (sui black).  my only fear would be against mono-U control, yet as mentioned earlier i could always have a sideboard of things like negator to lay down early beats, or serendib efreets.  both of these creatures work disgustingly amazing with unstable mutation as well.

thoughts/ideas??

[Anonymous]

Really depends on the level of players and the decks but U/B control can be pretty strong. You would have to fit the Mana Drains in (not sure I would just replace 4 Mana Leaks for 4 Drains). You have 4 Duress, 8-12 counterspells, Infiltrators, etc.. which all can be good against most decks.

If you can get a good sideboard together, a couple Mutilates/No Mercy's for the aggro decks, and play test alot you should do fine. If you expect TnT you should include some artifact hate (Hurkyl's, Energy Flux, etc...). Mutilate should also work very well against Tnt since the toughness of their creatures is relatively low compared to the number of swamps you should have out. Dragon I would have Diabolic's in the sideboard or even main in place of the Chainer's since you need instant speed destruction. Or Chain of Vapor of course.

[Puschkin]

Well, it just looks like a suboptimal OSE deck and the latest changes makes it look like OSE more and more. As such, you have some chances since OSE is still a good deck, but the differences you have (oddities like Ill-Gotten Gains for example) do not make up in surprise what they lose in consistency and effectiveness. It´s like "Oh, I feared a Back to Basics now and I am surprised that its a Ill-Gotten Gains ... okay then, I get my Drain, Misdirection and Ancestral back".

[xrobx]

good point puschkin, about the ill-gotten gains and all.

what is OSE?? i've never heard of it, and i made this deck entirely myself, and with the suggestions of the people around here, could turn it into a wikkid deck like i wanted it to be.

basically i ran ill gotten gains to grab me 3 key things i needed in tight situations where i was about to die, much like yawgmoth's will does for me.  ideally i would get say 2 edicts and a counterspell, or capsize with lots of mana on the table + zuran orb + edict, basically to keep me alive a bit longer so i can stabilize.