Powerless Chalice Black// Disruption - 294 Hypnotic Spect...

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (BaronSengir @ Nov. 23 2003,20:20)That being said, I know   means broken, but what card or what thing is this referring too?  

It's a Noble Panther. Once upon a time, there was a post where someone explained that "Noble Panther decks Keeper". It doesn't get more   than that.

On Unmask, you really want to play it turn 1, when chalice is irrelevant. If you're drawing it later, you'd be better off with Hymn, even with dead cards in your hand.

[g0dzillA]

Unmask does have synergy with the rest of the deck, in that you tend to end up with dead cards in hand under your own Chalices. However, it has the same disadvantage that Therapy does: that it cannot remove land from your opponent's hand the way Hymn can. Because the deck is already so focused on mana denial and especially under a Sphere, you want to take lands from your opponent any way you can.

On the Petal issue, I agree with its inclusion. It helps accellerate out your Chalices and Spheres, which is absolutely vital. Any tempo you lose from the unpermanent mana source should be more than made up for by the tempo gained from the early disruption it allows.

[kooaznboi1088]

Ill add my opinions to this deck.

First of all about factory.

You are already packing 5 colorless mana, and even more if u pack sol ring.

During testing, I found that factories were often slowing me down then helping me. They dilute the mana base in some games just way too much. And if you are running things like shade, hymn, and necro, thats not really cool.

Wretches have never failed me thus far. And I am quite happy with them replacing factory as a threat.

The original idea of the sphere was that it would give you an extra swing so that you can win with the gator. But when i tested it, it either did not have the effect to halt the opponent much, or it stopped me also.

So I ended up cutting the factories/spheres for Wretches/Swamps.

And the thing about chalice is that IMO they are kinda usless late game, and u really only want to see 1-2 the whole time. Maybe not even two, jsut one. And topdecking it lategame against anydeck would be usless. A lot of times I had it either dead or just another thing to feed the gator. So i reduced the number to three.

Just IMO though, whatever works for you guys might not work for me.

[Sytupal]

I've noticed in this thread that there is talk of card options that are good and bad and prominently playable in a variant of the deck.  

I would like to touch upon several things.

Mishra's ~ Something that Centroles brought up was that it's a land drop.  That gives factories their biggest setback ~ It can't be afforded.  "Mishra's Factory, go" is game loss.  a first turn "duress, go,(turn two) factory...(than what? make him into a creature and NOT attack?"  it's not good..  that's where sphere comes in i know, but what if it isn't drawn?  I don't think the chances taken by playing Factories are worth it.  

Yawgwin ~ too slow?  Even i can't agree with that.  I played a mono-black variant without Yawgmoth's will for about a year, simply because it was not accessible... literally.  When i finally got it, it proved to be a major game winner.  It keeps Monoblack in games that it should straight out lose.  


Being able to have two swamps on the board, ritual, yawgwin, use the ritual again, and cast a hymn/duress or sinkhole etc from the graveyard is insane!.  

The point of MonoBlack, sphere of resistance builds or not, is not to win fast!.  

Nothing broken for monoblack is "too slow" in todays meta.  Monoblack isn't fast.  Not for today's standards.  IT's not meant to be.  It's a decent speed, and faster than most builds of older "tier 1" status, but not today.  

I must admit, my build does not play sphere.  Before i get criticized, let me explain.  Sphere of resistance is a waste of disruption.  

I'll Compare Sphere of Resistance to Howling Mine.  

Howling Mine was dominant in Old Monoblue control for years.  It allowed extra card draw into counter magic and morphling/ win condition/ ivory tower food.  What people realized in today's meta is that by using Howling Mine now, it affects the opponent before it helps the caster.  An extra card draw is not what you want today.  Especially when it affects you negatively first.  

Now Sphere.  Sphere is played first, maybe second turn.  IF it's played first, dark ritual, duress, sphere. or jet, swamp, sphere.  IF it's played second turn it's swamp, swamp sphere or whatever.  

If it's dropped first turn, that's your turn.  It uses up your lands and doesn't allow you to cast hand disruption.  Next is the opponent.  He/she throws down a land and assuming he went second, he says go.  50% of the time, it's his second turn by then.  He has the extra mana to cast turn 1 spells/ hand disruption, whatever.  It gives you a time walk some percentage of games you play it in.  The rest of that percentage goes to someone forcing it, or a game in which you didn't play first.  Thus allowing your opponent to play his second land ~ therefore playing a turn 1 hand disruption or accelerant.  So he can still recall, brainstorm, duress, whatever.  And now, They went first, letting them cast whatever they want,  You went second playing ONE CARD, giving them a timewalk in a game where essentially they have one land in hand(how it works out).  They drop their second land and both of them contribute towards one.  

I'm not sure how this sounds to anyone else but my proof reading tells me it's okay.  
- My .02

[g0dzillA]

@kooaznboi:

I may be pointing out the obvious here, but Wretch, like Factory also does not tap for black mana. The bottom line is, Factory isn't even considered part of the land count for this deck. It's considered part of the threat base. If it occasionally produces you some colorless mana, good times. But it's not necessary.

By replacing both the Spheres and the Factories, you're lowering the disruption/threat rate in a very significant way. You may have a more constant stream of mana, but you are also allowing your opponent much stronger tempo in the early game, and are not making up for it with a faster clock in any way.

@Sytupal:

As far as the Sphere is concerned, its inclusion only reinforces your argument that the point of mono-black is not to win fast. This is true, and one of the few things that allows this paradigm is Sphere. It slows the early game down enough to the point where you have a chance to stabilize and strart building up your threats. Without something to slow the early game tempo, you'll never get to see a late game against most decks.

@both:

It's rather hard to heed your input as far as Factory is concerned, because the number one reason for its inclusion in the deck is its synergy with Sphere. Certainly if you're not playing Sphere, then Factory is a much more questionable choice. Of course, if you're not running Sphere or Factory, you're not really running Chalice Black; you're running Sui with Chalices thrown in.

[The Advantage]

@sytupal:  I'm not trying to argue that Will is too slow, I am arguing that it has the potential to be ineffective.  This deck wants a Sphere or Chalice(preferably both) on the board, and I think that must be taken into consideration when debating the usefullness of Will.

Is it safe to say that the two most common numbers for X on a Chalice are zero and one?  Further, as it is acknowledged that Will is a late game card in this deck, is it also safe to say that you have at least one Sphere or Chalice on the board, if not more?

I will take the liberty of naming the above situation very probable, but please let me know if you feel differently. Note that in this case your Will is likely to cost 3b and, assuming you dont have Chalice set at one, your rituals now only net you b.  It is very hard to abuse Will like we are acoustomed to abusing it when your rituals lose half their affect.  I have not tested w/o Will yet, nor am I advocating it gets the boot immediately, but I am interested in testing without it, as I would like to find room for Wretches.

[Arvid]

@Moonshine:

I think your last decklist defenitely was the best. Although I don't know how random one Withered Wretch is...

@Yawgmoth's Will:

If you have a couple of Mishra's Factories and Chalices and/or a couple of Spheres out the Will is slow. But in this case just don't play it, instead attack with the assembly workers for the win! In another scenario perhaps your opponent managed to Meltdown everything on your board. Yawgmoth's Will here would take you right back into action again!

(My) Conclusion: Yawgmoth's Will defenitely belongs. In the scenarios where it is actually to slow, you should already be winning!

This is my current build:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator

4 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
14 Swamp (1 Lotus and 1 Jet if)
4 Dark Ritual

I wanted to make room for an additional tutor, I cut a Hymn for it, not sure that was right, though. Comments? Perhaps Spoils of the Vault would be better than Vampiric Tutor?

Current Sideboard:

4 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Contagion
4 Withered Wretch
3 Sengir Autocrat
1 Gaea's Blessing

Please comment on it!

[Sytupal]

@g0dzilla ~  
    
     I don't know if you fully understood what i meant when i typed what i did.  Using sphere takes up an entire turn of yours, two mana i would rather spend on a hymn to tourach or chalice for 1.

@All Yawgwin Statements

Yawgmoth's Will is a very important card to even the fastest of monoblack builds.  However, it is not mandatory in all games and at times it sometimes may be better to sideboard it out in favor of a better card.  The reason i leave it maindecked besides what i stated in my previous post is because it's still a better option than randomizing a card to put in in hopes that you get to use it against whatever deck you're facing.  

@Arvid ~

   I don't think cutting a hymn to tourach is the correct move for putting in another tutor card.  The good part about demonic consultation is that it's an instant that gets you the card almost immedietely.  Vampiric tutor requires you to think about what to search for as opposed to consultation which is used in a clutch situation where one card is needed above the rest.  The next best thing because consultation is already in there is spoils of the vault.  But with the build you have, I will bet that it's not hard to find cards you need.  If you insist on putting in the vampiric, take out a sphere of resistance for it.  4 of is not good. ~ getting two first hand with two swamps is not ever a good thing.

[Arvid]

@sytupal:

Ok, I will perhaps follow your advice and cut a Sphere instead of a Hymn. At least I'll playtest it. Although I will keep Vampiric and won't replace it with Spoils .. The reason is that I want to fit a "silver bullet" Withered Wretch in there somewhere ... Don't know what to cut there, though.

[MoonShine]

Alright, You guys need to chill out and look at what the deck is trying to accomplish.  The deck is trying to accomplish 4 turn clock with a soft lock, with Negator and Sphere/Chalice.  In which you have a 4 turn clock that is protected.  In addition to that, how does Mishra's Factory contribute to that theme? It doesnt. Sure Mishra's Factory is a VERY solid card that puts on tha beats, but the deck alone already lacks black sources of mana for the 1st/2nd turn Hymn to Tourach, which is VERY critical in a lot of matchups.  Lets look at Mishra's Factory what does it REALLY do to the deck?  Then answer my question; does it really belong?  I think that it doesnt.  Sure 'its a free creature under Sphere' well thats complete bull shit. Total bullshit.  Well sure, I coulda payed 1 more mana for a Withered Wretch and won the game, or played a Swamp so I could play Necro to seal the game.  Tell me what you think, Ill be glad to argue.

My Current Listing:

//Mana - 20
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
12 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

//Disruption - 26
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Mindtwist
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance

//Treats - 9
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade
1 Withered Wretch

//Broken - 5
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

But ya; please think about Mishra's Factory and my comments about it.  Thanks.  Btw is this the best list? Or is my past list?

What do you think about 1 Chains of Meph. maindeck?

If you convince me that Mishra's Factory HAS to be maindecked here is my Mishra Listing .

//Mana - 20
12 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring

//Disruption - 25
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance

//Threats - 12
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Nantuko Shade
1 Withered Wretch

//Broken - 3
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Vampiric Tutor

I swapped Consultation for Vampiric Tutor; as V. Tutor can search out my lone Withered Wretch.

Please think about:

-Withered Wretch Maindeck (1)
-Mishra's Factory Maindeck Out/In Your Thoughts(4)  Refer to the top of my post about Factory.
-Yawg Win in the deck
-Chains of Meph. Maindeck (1)

Sideboard Posibilities:
Chains of Meph.
Anvil of Bogardan (?)
Unmask
Cabal Therapy
Contagion
Plaguebearer
Diabolic Edict

[Luk5000]

Interesting.  Cool discussion fellas...

I have a few comments.

I think that this deck is pretty solid.  I like the strategy that Negator is a 4 turn clock and you use the lockdown to protect it along with sui's good buddy the mono black disruption crew.  I do think that the factory will play a big role in the deck becuase, as godzilla points out many a time, he is VERY synergistic with the deck and he's the beatz that makes you kill faster.  The damage does add up.  Not including him just becuase you fear him being drawn really early is a poor excuse.  You have many things to cast with this deck and I feel that the factory can wait a few turns while you lock your opponent down.  You also have sinkhole, hymn and duress to play not to mention the 5 strips... that will take time.

The mana Curve to this deck does pan out pleasantly even though your 2cc slot is heavy.  I also think that the Will could be left out- it's just simply not as good and the extra slot is much needed.

I personally prefer this creature configuration:
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Withered Wretch

I feel that 2 Wretch main and 2 in the SB could work out great.  Also, since this deck works well with the clock method you will advance by having the shades and factories working together if don't have Negator.

Be carrful on which 'broken' cards you use.  The Vampiric Tutuor can be clunky and ineffective when 1) you chalice for 1, 2) you have card diasadvantage and 3) you have to wait to get it...cast it EOT when you want to use your black during your turn for disruption.  I also think that consultation, while really good, could be tossed when in doubt.

Chains should definitly be SB.  They are really good against many big decks...if you feel the need I advise 1 MD becuase it could be good, but it's use is limited so be careful.

I have more to say and no time to say it...but I will be back.

Word,
Luk5000

[MoonShine]

Interesting ideas, and good point about Vampiric Tutor.

Hmm, Ive decided that Mishra's Factory has to be in the deck;

This is THE CURRENT listing.

//Mana - 19
13 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Jet (or Lotus Petal)
1 Sol Ring

//Disruption - 25
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance

//Threats - 12
4 Mishra's Factory
3-4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Nantuko Shade
1-2 Withered Wretch

//Broken - 4
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
0-1 Necropotence
0-1 Yawgmoth's Will
0-1 Chains of Meph.

I still think Will should remain in the deck, as should Necro... But could Necro be replaced by Chains of Meph. ?

[Negator0808]

This may be a bit radical, but how about cutting Hymns for Wretches? Too many times Hymn has been crap for me with Chalice diluting it, and Wretch is good against the majority of Tier 1 decks.

4 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual

4 Withered Wretch
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Duress
4 Sinkhole

1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB: 4 Rack and Ruin
SB: 3 Contagion
SB: 3 Chains of Mephistophiles
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy

[MoonShine]

WHAT?

Your actually considering droping Hymn to Tourach, a staple black disruption card... for a METAGAME choice?

Sorry, that doesnt make sense at all, no I cant see your reasoning, yes that is a bad move;

Hymn has a chance of getting rid of Land, also known as Disruption, and with Sphere out, that can set your opponent back 1+ turns.  Hell, if you grab 2 lands thats already 2-3+ turns right there with a Negator out.

Withered Wretch is a good card, but no I would NOT touch the disruption base we already established;

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Chalice
4 Sphere

How can Hymn be crap for you with Chalice 'diluting' it when Wretch is 2 mana also... Omg thats retarded.

I do like adding red though, and I was going to suggest that... but I am not sure about that decision yet.

[Negator0808]

...

I am sorry.

By diluting, i meant you have a good chance of making them pitch Chaliced cards... but I agree cutting Hymns would be a bad idea. The main point however is that Wretch needs to be maindeck and I can't find anything to cut for it.

Also, WW is NOT a metagame choice. Look:

Dragon
MUD
GAT
Rectory
Anything with Yawg Win
Etc.

WW is great against so many decks it shouldnt even be questioned.

[g0dzillA]

Quote (MoonShine @ Nov. 24 2003,17:31)How can Hymn be crap for you with Chalice 'diluting' it when Wretch is 2 mana also... Omg thats retarded.

He didn't mean diluted because of its 2cc. What he's saying is that when you have a Chalice in play, assuming it's doing its job, it's preventing your opponent from casting some cards in his hand. That being the case, your Hymn is diluted by the higher likelihood that you'll remove cards that your opponent already can't cast. In that regard, Hymn and Chalice don't have the greatest synergy, but the fact that Hymn can remove lands, and that it's 2 for 1 card advantage regardless, makes it a very hard card to cut.

Also, I have to agree with Negator - WW isn't a metagame choice. I mean, technically it is, but any remotely competitive meta right now will have decks against which the Wretch will be useful.

[MoonShine]

Ahh, Ok that was a mistunderstanding by me.  I am sorry.

But ya, in my deck I have;

4 Negator
1 Wretch

-or-

3 Negator
2 Wretch

-or-

3 Negator
3 Factory
3 Wretch

I think those are good along with 3 Shades with each set.

I think Hymn is a good card against the metagame decks; along with Wretch, so I do agree that Wretch needs to be maindecked.

[Negator0808]

Theres absolutely no reason not to add red though... it hurts your mana base NONE and gives you a much better game against MUD.

So... for now:

4 Swamp
4 Mire
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mishra's Factory

2 Withered Wretch
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator

4 Chalice
4 Sphere
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
1 Tutor
1 Necro

SB
2 WW
4 Rack and Ruin
3 Chains
3 Contagion
3 Null Rod

Consult and Yawg Win need to find their way back into the deck... I'm thinking that with Factories being counted as threats and not towards the mana base, we can cut a couple land... just trying to make room for WW.

EDIT: Hmmm, a 3/3/3/3 creature base actually seems decent... I may go with that.

[MoonShine]

Here is THE CURRENT LISTING :

//Mana - 19
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Jet(or Lotus Petal)
1 Sol Ring
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Swamp

//Disruption - 25
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance

//Threats - 12
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Withered Wretch

//Broken - 4
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawg Win

//Sideboard - 15
2 Withered Wretch
3 Contagion
4 Rack and Ruin
3 Chains of Meph.
3 Null Rod

Im still not sure about the dual land idea, as Wastelands are running around, but then again if someone actually does Wasteland a land of yours anyway, you arent accomplishing your goal or you are already winning... IMO.

Mono Black Version:

//Mana - 19
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Jet(or Lotus Petal)
1 Sol Ring
13 Swamp

//Disruption - 25
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance

//Threats - 12
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Withered Wretch

//Broken - 4
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawg Win

//Sideboard - 15
2 Withered Wretch
4 Contagion
3 Chains of Meph.
4 Null Rod
2 Bottomless Pit

[Crater Hellion]

Your mana base would of course be best running no factories. Red is a viable addition because of (non-Dragon) black deck's inherent inability to combat artifact prison decks such as Welder Mud effectively. One qualm I have with the current list is how badly it rolls over to chalice for 2. If you are running Wretches over Hypnotics (which I do advise), are you sure you would not be better off running Cabal Therapies, or perhaps a pair of Rack and Ruin maindeck? Contrasting what MoonShine said, I do believe cutting Hymns can be a decent metagame choice.

[MoonShine]

I agree with Crater Hellion in that this deck will not have a defined decklist.  As it is a sort of 'metagame choice deck'...

So ya, 2 Rack and Ruin maindeck wouldnt be a bad idea, or you could use 1 Withered Wretch, 1 Shattering Pulse, 1 Rack and Ruin maindeck with Vampiric Tutor and Demonics.

[Crater Hellion]

Well Withered Wretch is certainly a card you want. Although I have limited Suicide Black experience, I would probably go as far as to maindeck 3 and possibly sideboard one, given the prominence of Dragon and Mud (2 of what I consider the big 3 decks, both hosed pretty savagely by this card), and Keeper is even hurt by it to some extent.

[Luk5000]

I am not sure vering from the Mono black build is wise... I don't really think Blood Moon will make very big of a difference and can not be played MD at all.  I also think that the mana base wouldn't be hurt bad at all if you added red and the artifact hate be welcome, but do you really need an improved game at the expense of a weaker one to others.  I don't know, but I think that mono blacks' redundant and consistant behavior are quite solid when trying to use sphere and COTV.  When you start adding colors and limited control cards like RnR you lose a lot of that solid consistancy and weaken the deck as a whole.

Now...Moonshine... *shakes moonshine repeatedly*

Do NOT put in red if you plan on only using RnR and only in the SB...that is just a waste and you will never use the red that will be thrown about.  I think if you are only going to add 4 red cards it's not worth considering adding red.

Now if you insist on adding red at least put some good cards into the red side...4 duals and 4 fetches...thats a lot of red...

Consider some of these:
-Terminate (not bad at all)
-Blood Moon(good, but I am not sold.  This would be the best reason to add red in any case)
-Meltdown (I don't know, just thought of it as a mud, long, comb hoser in one.  Though it is a sorcery.  )
-REB (becuase...thats why!)
-Gorilla Shaman (problem becuase its a creature, costs 1, and is harder to use than, say RnR...but a permanent under sphere...)
-Goblin Welder (agian costs 1, but it could be cool...i dont know it's just a brain fart and will complicate things too much. dont really consider this.)

Okay.... thos are just suggestions if you want to go with red, but I think red is not going to be as good as mono black.

GTG again...damnit,

Luk5000

ps...BAM!

[Jakedasnake]

Damnit Moonshine, stop posting lists, it's pissing me off. Changing two cards can be said in a post. And neon green text?

Anyway, in a competetive metagame, the 3:3:3:3 creature layout is just better than most others. It effectively evens out the threats your deck can deal out, and it makes it harder for the opponent to hose down one of your strategys.

3 Mishra's Factory because you don't want to drop it early. It's best played under a Sphere, and early drawing one is just shit; you want to play the Sinkholes, Negators, Wretches, and Shades. Colorless can hurt early.

3 Shade because early you're not going to have too many extra swamps lying around. Late they are golden, but early a Wretch is better.

3 Wretch because this card is the ONLY thing that gives this deck a chance against Dragon or wMUD.

3 Negator because there wasn't enough room for 4.

I personally think that Cabal Therapy is better now-a-days. Targeted disruption is more important against decks that don't mind having cards in their grave.

The only reason I would splash red is for Rack and Ruin; it just wrecks house. But weakening your matchup against Keeper can hurt; their Wastelands are no longer dead draws, they can easily mana fuck you with only 4 real swamps.

[Sytupal]

@Jake

You beat me with that comment ~  Changing your list every time there's a suggestion is not wise and just gets annoying.  the Font color makes me want to skip over your posts and just read the responses.  Crater hellion, despite his limited chalice/sui experience is correct.  Withered Wretch is almost always the better MD choice over Hypnotic Specter.  

The mirror match

WelderMud

and Dragon are SEVERELY hurt by this deck.  

And in addition it takes out long's ability to really use yawgwin to their full advantage.  It's a hoser in almost any metagame.

[centroles]

if you're so unsure of factories. why not simply play 3. for the same reason many people opt to play 3 shades. because you rarely want to draw more than one per game.

the factories because you'll rarely be able to spare two land drops and they eat up mana to activate and the shades because they're very mana hungry.

v. tutor and spoils are both big no nos. spoils can mean too much life loss and 15% of the time, autoloss. v. tutor is card disadvantage and often shut off by chalices.

i'm still not sure about will. i guess you're right in that if you're in a position where it's useless, it's either too early or you're already winning. but it has proven to be a deadweight for me quite often in this one particular deck.

the usefulness of wretches is directly related to the prominance of workshop based decks in your area. if workshop based decks are rare, there's no reason to maindeck wretches. frankly, i would be more inclined to play wretched anurid instead or maybe even sarcomancy since aggro is for the large part dead thanks to chalice. if workshop decks are common however, i wouldn't even play this deck as workshop decks are the one and only weakness this deck has. but against them, it's virtually an autoloss.

[Arvid]

The 3:3:3:3 creature base looks pretty solid, and the arguments presented by Jakedasnake convinced me to playtest it, at least. Although I will never compromise on the Phyrexian Negator, so for me it will be 4:3:3:2.

@centroles:

Vampiric Tutor is carddisadvantage, I defenitely agree, but I don't buy your argument about it being shut by Chalice for 1. If that would be true the same reason should cut Demonic Consultation, and later down you talk about Sarcomancy - again a 1cc card! One reason why we all play Demonic Consultation is that it could easily become Chalice nr #5, especially with an opening hand like land, ritual, consultation for chalice, chalice for 1 (against Sligh). I think V.T., although its carddisadvantage, could be considered the same. Ofcourse the opponent Sligh player will get one creature into play before the Chalice hits the board, but that's a deal I can go with unless it's Lackey or Vandal ...

A question to you all is what you think about Sengir Autocrat. Is it a valid sideboard option against wMud/$T4KS?

[g0dzillA]

Quote (centroles @ Nov. 24 2003,21:25)the usefulness of wretches is directly related to the prominance of workshop based decks in your area. if workshop based decks are rare, there's no reason to maindeck wretches.

I heard a rumor that Dragon uses the graveyard in some way... but I guess it's not um... competitive enough to mention. Clearly Sarcomancy is the better choice.  

[Sytupal]

oh yes clearly.     *sigh*

~Wouldn't you rather play cursed totem over sengir autocrat?  It shuts down welder, metalworker and karn.  I feel it would be a better "2 of" sideboard choice.  How's this for sideboard options,

2 Powder Keg
2 Cursed Totem
4 Contagion
2 Masticore
2 Planar Void
3 Null Rod

Yes?  

It's very versatile considering there's no way you're going to get decent enchantment destruction without splashing green.

[Arvid]

I think Cursed Totem is ok, but it has bad synergy with Shade and Wretch. The Autocrat seems good against Tangle Wire and Smokestack but ofcourse it does nothing against Welder trix, but isn't that what Withered Wretch is for?

To make more space in the sideboard what do you think about Damping Matrix?