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Hyze
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« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2003, 12:16:50 pm » |
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I can agree that the adding of duress would help against the combo decks, but I would be hesitant to be adding the 5 strips. As I@n has stated his current build has a fragile mana base and to change it would cost the deck alot of its effectiveness.
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wuaffiliate
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« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2003, 03:28:00 pm » |
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i havent had any problems with this mana base:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
4 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
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suicide_slushy
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« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2003, 10:55:10 pm » |
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Piledriver seems like it would just win vs Hulk.
Wu's manabase can easily support the 7 duress, which is a ncessity if you want to have a good match vs the good combo decks of t1.
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lightning_bolt
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« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2003, 04:08:53 am » |
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the addition of 4 duress and 3 cabal therapy is a great addition to goblins ...
I run 4 duress amd 4 cabal therapy ...
I've talked to people that just tell me that it just slows down the inevitable ...
I think the deck works good with the disruption because it not only adds a twist of thought for your opponent, but you can also save yourself by removing a much needed card from your opponents hand and save yourself for a few extra turns where you would hopefully get the kill.
I've play tested this against a few decks ...
Where TNT won about 78% of the time ...
Suicide, where Goblins won about 85% of the time ...
Trix, where goblins won about 90% of the time ...
Pure Burn, where goblins got walked on 90% of the time ..
Hulk Smash, 50/50
Anyways, enough of my rant ...
Hopefully it made sense cause I've been up for about 24hrs straight now ...
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wuaffiliate
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« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2003, 04:22:32 am » |
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those are some pretty false matchups...
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ReallyNubian
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« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2003, 08:44:29 am » |
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I almost never played with goblin decks so i will probably tell something very stupid, but i will do it just the same...
Isn't it worth to play white as a back up colour instead of black?
I'll try to explain.
Instead of duress/cabal you can run orim's chant (like a timewalk vs so many decks, and one more turn is key for goblins), abeyance, gilded light (tendrils...) and so many sideboard cards (sacred ground, disenchant, plows, karmic justice, whatever...).
Sometimes i happen to duress someone only to see their hand full of broken things and the will do what they want just the same, with the chant is somewhat different...
I know, you gotta leave the mana open, but isn't it worth a trying?
Just my 2 cent....
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lightning_bolt
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« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2003, 09:05:34 am » |
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Quote (wuaffiliate @ Sep. 05 2003,02:22)those are some pretty false matchups... well they aren't meant to be exact ... Its just an indication on the games I've tested ... Sorry if I offended you ... |
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wuaffiliate
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« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2003, 01:34:41 pm » |
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oh no offense was taken...i was just commenting
my testing has shows alot less favor to goblins in those matches.
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ReallyNubian
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« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2003, 01:16:45 am » |
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... Forgot a thing about splashing white instead of black: you can even play with goblin trenches that, while not so powerful in this deck, can be very stylish!
.... Or with Eternal Dragon (ok, just joking....)
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Hyze
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« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2003, 04:15:15 pm » |
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I was wondering what everyones thought would be if we splashed green in the deck.
Just think of a Piledriver with berserk on it.
Or a lackey with rancor.
Anyways those are my random thoughts of the day.
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centroles
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« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2003, 09:04:59 pm » |
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ian, what's your take on post mirrodian goblins. is it feasible with chalice?
maybe a few more two costing cast goblins?
post a list if you could.
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g0dzillA
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« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2003, 09:17:09 pm » |
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Whoa, Forum Necromancy! I'm curious about I@n's thoughts as well. My opinion is that a more combo-oriented Goblins variant like Food Chain Goblins or GobVantage is the best answer right now, as they're as fast as (if not faster than) classic Goblin Sligh, and have a much more versatile mana curve versus Chalice.
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Hero
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« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2003, 11:16:36 pm » |
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Doesn't Meltdown kind of take care of Chalice? Or is the converted mana cost 1 because of X?
Sorry if that's a noob question, just getting back into Magic after a three year hiatus.
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BuboniC
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« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2003, 11:27:49 pm » |
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I dunno if goblins can thrive in the meta now, considering some keepers use chalice(All in SB/MD), with sphere of resistance(MUD, Stax, some sui's) and powder Keg(SB in some sui's, MUD) I dont think goblins can outrace too beat a chalice for 1 first turn, a keg first turn, or a sphere, expecaily since you run 4 aabandon/ 4 Grenade- and it is doubtfull you will have a target in play. So this deck has bad matchups vs. Keeper, Fish(SB's Chalice in most builds ive seen) MUD, Stax, Masks, and sui. That leaves Hulk. After SB your matchup increases vs. all these, but an early force takes out moon from keeper/Duress, and a sceptor with Fire/Ice towers of this deck anyway. I may be proved wrong but I strongly think Goblin Sligh cant stad up in the Control/Combo Meta, aggro is obsolete.
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Chiz
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« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2003, 09:21:08 pm » |
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Quote (centroles @ Nov. 21 2003,21:04)ian, what's your take on post mirrodian goblins. is it feasible with chalice?
maybe a few more two costing cast goblins?
post a list if you could. I've tried to play goblin Sligh post mirrodin. It's really hard. I tried to adapt it with more artifact removal, to deal with CotV and stax, mud, etc. You can search my topics for a little more information, but here's the decklist I played: Goblins: 26 4x Goblin Lackey 4x Goblin Piledriver 2x Goblin Grappeler 4x Mogg Fanatic 2x Goblin Thinkerer 3x Goblin Cadet 4x Goblin Vandal 3x Siege-gang Commander Others: 16 4x Lighting Bolt 4x Chain Lighting 4x Reckless Charge 1x Time Walk 1x Ancestral Recall 2x Goblin Grenade Mana sources: 18 1x Lotus Petal 8x Mountain 1x Volcanic island 4x Bloodstained Mire 4x Wooded Foothills Sideboard: 4x CotV 3x Crash 4x Pyrokinesis 4x Thormod's Crypt Yes, I don't play the rings, they are good in the late game, but most of the times they did no really difference in my games. That made you almost wasteland-proove and allows you to play Crash in the sideboard. I did 3-3, not so good... About the matchup (as what I saw) Good matchup: Keeper and Fish (even with CotV!), Landstill Even matchup: Stax, Mud Really bad matchup: Dragon Really really bad matchup: Long You auto-scoop against Long, you simply can't do anything good except if your opponent screw himself. Dragon is really hard to beat, he kills you 1-2 turn before you can kill him. You have so many artifact removal that you may kill stax and Mud. All depend of the first turn. You go first and drop a first turn Lackey or Vandal and you're alomost winning. He goes first and drop a first turn Sphere or Wire or a CotV (X=1) and you almost loose... You put a lot of pressure on Keeper that you should win. Sure a CotV is a real pain, but it won't cast it always on the first turn. a first turn Lackey or Vandal deals easily with a CotV with X=1. (crash is good too! ) The real problem with goblins is that it can't do anything good against two good decks: Long and Dragon. Goblins is a very competitive deck as long as you don't play against Dragon and Long! |
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gianL
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« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2003, 10:08:25 pm » |
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... Me=goblin player who isn't playing t1 til' chalice is restricted.. lol but do you guys really think 1st turn chalice screws goblin really hard so that it can't come back? it's sad really... but here's my question... Is Chalice "overrated" against goblins?
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g0dzillA
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« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2003, 10:23:02 pm » |
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Quote (gianL @ Nov. 22 2003,19:08)... Me=goblin player who isn't playing t1 til' chalice is restricted.. lol but do you guys really think 1st turn chalice screws goblin really hard so that it can't come back? it's sad really... but here's my question... Is Chalice "overrated" against goblins? First, I think it's unlikely in the extreme that Chalice will be restricted, at least not this Dec. 1. It simply hasn't proven itself format distorting or broken enough to warrant it. Second, yes, classic Goblin Sligh is completely hosed by a first turn Chalice for 1. Considering that it packs a grand total of 4-12 cards (typically) that cost more than 1, it simply can't make up for the tempo loss. This might be alleviated by a bunch of main/sided artifact hate, but this will significantly dilute its threat base. In essence, the archetype must evolve or die. |
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centroles
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« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2003, 09:50:28 am » |
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but that doesn't change the fact that food chains goblins is just as fast (and a lot more fun) than goblin sligh ever was and is at it's heart very much a goblins deck.
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Chiz
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« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2003, 10:06:25 am » |
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Quote (gianL @ Nov. 22 2003,22:08)... Me=goblin player who isn't playing t1 til' chalice is restricted.. lol but do you guys really think 1st turn chalice screws goblin really hard so that it can't come back? it's sad really... but here's my question... Is Chalice "overrated" against goblins? Yes Chalice is a little bit overrated against Goblins. Chalice hose the deck, that's for sure, but Chalice for 1 is not like an auto-scoop. If you go first, you have 8 first turn drop (4 Lackey and 4 Vandal) that allows you to deal efficiently against Chalice. After Sideboard, you have acces to 3 Crash, maybe 4 Crash to deal with CotV. If you're really in trouble, the last option is a thinkerer second turn and active it the third turn. Quote Second, yes, classic Goblin Sligh is completely hosed by a first turn Chalice for 1. Considering that it packs a grand total of 4-12 cards (typically) that cost more than 1, it simply can't make up for the tempo loss. This might be alleviated by a bunch of main/sided artifact hate, but this will significantly dilute its threat base. In essence, the archetype must evolve or die. Is playing Vandals and thinkerer dillute the threat base!? I really don't think so! What it more of a threat, a vandal of a raging goblin?? The Raging goblins boost your piledriver immediatly and that's a real threat, but, that's not before turn 3. First turn or second turn raging goblin isn't a real threat, but a first or second turn Vandal is a really big threat for a lot of decks (stax, mud, mask, everyone who plays Chalice or mishra's factory). Raging Goblin add speed to your deck to kill, sometimes, a turn faster. Vandal add more threat against key part of opposing decks, their control (CotV, Wire, ..) or their winning condition (Mask, Mishra's factory, Charlbencher, .. ) Having a threat against their control or winning condition buy you some times, and is more profitable that the speed the Raging goblins may add. And crash is really good because it don't affect your tempo the turn you play it, but may affect your tempo the next turn, especialy if you have to play it the first turn. If Crash allow you to destroy a CotV or a sphere first turn, well, that's worth the lost of a land. One other thing I want to say is that how likely your opponent will play a first turn Chalice. It's not likely that keeper will cast it first turn for 1 (he need a land, a mox and a chalice in his oppening hand). You have more chance to drop a first turn lackey or vandal first turn that he cast the chalice in the first turn. And I don't think that keeper will mulligan aggressively to have a CotV in his oppening hand, if he have to mulligan twice, he's in a big trouble! And a Chalice second turn may not be enough to stop you if you play a Vandal or a Lackey first turn. The only decks that are likely to cast a first turn Chalice is stax or Mud (because of their Mox and Workshop). |
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g0dzillA
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« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2003, 06:50:33 pm » |
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Quote (Chiz @ Nov. 23 2003,07:06)Is playing Vandals and thinkerer dillute the threat base!? I really don't think so! What it more of a threat, a vandal of a raging goblin?? The bigger threat would be Mogg Fanatic, actually. This is because he can often trade two for one, and more importantly, reinforces your ability to force through an early Lackey. And yes, from a damage standpoint, even Raging Goblin is a bigger threat because of its synergy with Piledriver (and Flunkies, if you happen to be running them). This isn't even to mention Jackal Pups, which are also a bigger threat. So are Incinerate, Price of Progress, etc. Understand that when I say "threat base" I'm referring not to hate, but to raw damage dealing capability. Goblin Sligh's one and only strength as a deck is its ability to do lots of damage very quickly. I can think of at least 5 different cards I'd rather run (from a threat standpoint) than Vandals. So by that definition, they most certainly dilute the threat base. Furthermore, even without Chalice in the mix, Goblin Sligh is too slow to race combo, because while it can kill on turn 3 or 4, Long and Dragon can kill on turn 1 or 2. Without disruption, classic Goblin Sligh is a bad choice, which is only compounded by the prevalence of Chalice in the meta. This isn't to say that Goblins are unplayable; they're probably my favorite archetype. I do think that GobVantage or Food Chain Goblins are much better choices, however, because they are faster and far less succeptible to Chalice than classic Goblins. The only advantage classic Goblins has over the two more combo-ish iterations is its lack of succeptibility to Mana Drain. So if you play in a Control-heavy meta with very little Combo, it is theoretically a better choice. Just pray you can race wMud's, Chalice Black's, and Keeper's Chalices. |
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Chiz
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« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2003, 08:30:33 am » |
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Quote Furthermore, even without Chalice in the mix, Goblin Sligh is too slow to race combo, You are right g0dzillA, Goblin Sligh is to slow to compete against combo (Dragon and Long). That's what I said. You have no to little chance to win those matchup. Quote Just pray you can race wMud's, Chalice Black's, and Keeper's Chalices. From the games I played, you can race wMud and you should win against Keeper's Chalices (I never lost a matchup against a Keeper, playing Chalice or not!) So, if there is no to little Combo in your metagame, goblins Sligh can be competitive. Quote This isn't to say that Goblins are unplayable; they're probably my favorite archetype. I do think that GobVantage or Food Chain Goblins are much better choices, however, because they are faster and far less succeptible to Chalice than classic Goblins. Well, I don't know GobVantage (sorry!!), but I know a little bit Food Chain Goblins and if you don't resolve your Food Chain, you're deck is really slower than Goblin Sligh (so it becomes worst than Goblin Sligh). Sure you don't loose to Chalice, but you loose to a duress or any Counterspells. I'm pretty sure that you will see more Duress, FoW and Mana Drain casted in a tournament than CotV. By the way, Vandal is strictly better than Jackul Pup or Incinerate. Those does not boost your Piledriver, those can't be drop by a Lackey, those can't be sac for a Grenade, Those can't destroy really annoying artifact, but Vandal do all of that! |
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