First off, Lets start with a list.Creatures: <13>4x...

[Tijnie]

First off, Lets start with a list.

Creatures: <13>
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Phyrexian Negator
3x Withered Wretch
2x Gorrila Shaman

Disruption: <16>
4x Duress
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Cabal Theraphy
3x Null Rod
3x Blood Moon

Broken: <4>
1x Yawgmoth’s Will
1x Necropotence
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation

Mana: <27>
4x Dark Ritual
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Lotus Petal
1x Sol Ring
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Badlands
2x Polluted Delta
5x Swamp
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

Mots of today's Meta's are heavely filled with decks like Workshop, Dragon and some Keeper. Taking the mana-base of all these decks and others, we can agree that there are very few decks with a mana-base solid enough to survive a fast blood moon.

Dragon will have a serious problem if Bazaar is a mountain.  Keeper and things with workshop won't be so happy too. Other decks like Gay/r or Long won't be happy with Blood Moon on table too so why not play it in Suicide??..


ABout the list. I looks pretty solig to me.
Hyppie left because: they were to slow
Sinkhole's left the building because Blood Moon does it's work better.
Other then most B/r Lists, I only use 2 Shamans.. this is because I still use Null Rod simply because i believe it's a keycard vs many decks.

the sideboard is getting a bit of a problem. This deck is really weak against any agrro and to make that matchup better I think 3 cores and 3 contagoin are needed. Extra graveyard hate will never hurt just like so more artifact hate. Maybe some Chains to stop drawing?..  It will be Meta Depending anyway so I'll just give you my current sideboard.

Sideboard: <15>
2x Coffin Purge
2x Masticore
2x Contagoin
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Terminate
2x Rack and Ruin

It needs to be more optimalized to take care of some weaknesses. Maybe Terminate would be nice..

anyway, does anyone have any nice suggestions for helping me out here or do you believe that is not needed  

Greetings  

(EDIT, sb. -1 Coffin Purge, -1 Contagoin. +2 Terminate)
(Edit2, Counted Wrong on the mana base. -1 Swamp)

[BreathWeapon]

Bloodmoon is going to come back in a very harsh way very soon. None of the current deck lists pay any attention to it at all, which begs for a deck to exploit it. BloodMoon is still fast enough for this environment.

[Cold Eternal]

I love having access to Blood Moon, Terminate, and Rack and
Ruin by having red splashed. I haven't missed the Sinkholes which were replaced.

[rhox505]

I think this is a great idea.  I think red might also offer some good suicide creatures....like Balduvian Horde, whose ability won't be so bad if you're holding a late game hymn/ritual

[Tijnie]

yeah well, what I would like to know.. what are the real weaknessis of this deck??

Sure it has its problems with agrro, I know that, that is a problem that we can solve. but witch other decks are way to strong for B/R Suicide to beat??

And I think it's a compliment that no-one tried changing my list  

Lets go Suicide!!  

[rhox505]

1 - as to the weaknesses, well, control could pose serious threat

2 - i would modify your list a lil bit:

4 nantuko shade
3 gorilla shaman
4 phyrexian negator
4 withered wretch

1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 necropotence
1 yawgmoths will
4 blood moon
4 dark ritual
4 duress
3 hymn to tourach

4 badlands
4 bloodstained mire
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
10 swamp
1 mox ruby
1 mox jet
1 black lotus

biggest change is taking null rod out of maindeck, and using more 3 and 4 power.  i think consultation is unneccessary since there is nothing really singly important.  shaman, moxmonkey, and blood are the three ways you are going to get control...so i think its important to have lots of em.  sol ring not necessary in this build because solid mana is important not total mana.

EDIT - perhaps a burning wish maindeck

[pernicious dude]

If you're pulling the Null Rod,
you may want all the early acceleration you can get.
Sol Ring says turn two Duress, Blood Moon in its flavor text.

Myself, I'd run the Null Rods instead.\n\n

[rhox505]

the reason i dont think null rod is so necessary is because the shamans can already handle moxen and that is most of what null rod will stop, granted it does a lot more vs a mud deck, which is why i definitely would still keep em in the sb.

i playtested this deck and it seems that so far the biggest weaknesses i have seen are vs little creature tools and anything that stomps, like from tnt madness etc.

i think plaguebearer or fanatic would be a good addition to help clearing opponents tool creatures.

[SummenSaugen]

You know fire/ice on a stick works perfectly well through Blood Moon?  You know what Fire/Ice does against suicide, right?

The Null Rods are key.

[Sytupal]

null rods = key and why not

secret tech gate to phyrexia... hate in enough against your worst matchup(mud/artifact) and they scoop      

personal experience rocks  

[Tijnie]

I believe Null Rods are more effective then shamans, since shaman can't stop a mox from giving 1 mana anyway and is way more mana intesive. This is why Sol Ring is added, and it can be used for Wretch, Moon, Negator, Will, Rod and alot of sb slots.

Fanatic and Plagueb. are option. but are it better hits than Contagoin and Masticore?.

Chalice of the Void was in the sb vs long.dec. But the new Ban/Res. List just killed that intire deck giving us 3 new slots for the sideboard. so how bout this?

Sideboard: <15>
3x Coffin Purge
2x Masticore
4x Contagoin
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Terminate
2x Rack and Ruin

maybe 1 Shaman of RaR can be added instead of the 4th Contagoin....  And what about the Chains of Mep. Should they stay or go?

[Sytupal]

One(me) wonders if youu play against any scrub aggro decks in your meta. Even in a powered tournament there are bound to be some.  There's no reason to cut chalice simply because long is not as viable.  
Chalice says
"I win"
instead of
"I lose"

in an aggro matchup.

[SummenSaugen]

re:  Masticore

Masticore doesn't work under Null Rod.  I recommend using something else that does.

[Tijnie]

maybe you're right, maybe Chalice sould return. I know Rack and Ruin is strong but I don't feel like I'm going to use is (never saw any Prison of Mud here..) So I'll be dropping them.

With Chalice back on bord Masticore will do a fine job replacing my Null Rods in an Agrro Matchup.

Sideboard: <15>
3x Coffin Purge (Dragon, Rector, Madness)
2x Masticore (Agrro)
3x Contagoin (Agrro)
2x Chains of Mephistopheles (Controll, Combo  )
2x Terminate (Agrro, Dragon)
3x Chalice of the Void (Sligh/Agrro, Combo, Artifact  )

there, for My Meta thats fine I ques.. I still wonder if I'm well balanced, it looks like dragon overkill here.

[Sytupal]

dragon overkill is required.  Sadly enough, the .dec now adays needs to be able to handle most situations without the use of a sideboard.  The sideboard in builds heavily influenced by black need dragon and MUD hate more than anything.

chalice and contagion rock against welders.  a big yes in my book.

[TheCowWithHat]

One card I see on your list that seems less then optimal is the Masticore.  He isn't as good against aggro or mud as the Contagion.  The arguement that he is a threat is not very strong considering that he also forces you to stop using your drawn cards to threaten your opponent and he roles over to a spell you already use in your deck (null rod).
I'd say
-2 Masticore
+1 Conatagion
+1 Teminate/Chanis of Mephistopheles (depending on whether you see more aggro or combo in your environment)

All in all I like the deck alot good work Tijnie.

[Tijnie]

First off, thnx for the cool reaction,

I think a third Chains of Mep. wouldn't be nessesary since the deck already had a nice Matchup vs Controll and Combo. And Terminate can kill Dragon & Agrro. since those aren't your best matchups I think a third Terminate would be fine.

I must say its really funny to see another color in Suicide, I've always been playing mono because of the mana base. This mana base is nice, though after a blood moon it happens often enough that BB left for a few turns making me feel really bad. (no Wretches, Shades of Hymns.) But I ques that is the only backside splashing red gives you and it's not a complete disaster.

lets go rock Bloody Suicide!  

Sideboard: <15>
3x Coffin Purge (Dragon, Rector, Madness)
2x Chains of Mephistopheles (Controll, Combo)
4x Contagoin (Agrro)
3x Terminate (Agrro, Dragon)
3x Chalice of the Void (Sligh/Agrro, Combo, Artifact)

[Tasmaniac]

Considering the semireliance on Blood Moon to help out with nasty matchups, might it be better to drop some of the Badlands to increase fetchland count and basic lands?  


re sideboard
Are you concerned more about Green Aggro or Sligh?  I've always found Dystopia to be very effective against Green Stompy, which I have to play against a lot more of than Sligh.

Certainly in my meta:

-4 Contagion
+4 Dystopia.

[Tijnie]

I fear Sligh over Stompy. Dystopia is VERY nice in Meta's wich Stompy runs wild. I've seen 1-2 enchantress decks but I don't really fear them.
For agrro I think Contagoin will do just fine, and for stompy it will work nice too, and don't forget, I have Chalice of the void (nice vs all the low costing creature's) AND terminate's in my sideboard. I believe stompy is beatable in game 2-3.

edit, dont forget that if you cut even more badlands, there will be a big chance you need blood moon for red mana and your fetch can't get you any other thing them swamps. Wastelands are still around and you don't always have a blood moon in play. I think 3 badlands is just fine

[djogs]

Just to add to the discussion, i started doing this when i <3ed blood moon, despite some wu-flavoured detractors.

My list played all the three drops though, but perhaps largely because it seemed traditional?

4 Negator
4 Hypnotic Specters
2 Wretch
1 Shade

3 Blood Moon
4 Sinkhole
3 Hymn
4 Duress
2 Therapy
1 Mind Twist0r

1 Tutor
1 Necro
1 Will

3 Terminate
2 Powder Keg

Lotus
Sol Ring
Jet
4 Ritual
4 Mires
4 Badlands
5 Wastes
4 Swamps

My, er, sideboard "tech" against aggro was Sedge Trolls :S
He seemed to hold off pretty well against Madness at least, but I guess this list is very much not committing to either crushing Control or crushing Men. But I'm not sure if that'd be good for the hood I play in anyway.

Sedge Troll just bad? Iono, he did fine for me butttttt it seems a bit odd casting that man :S

This deck is real suicide though, it even plays something that turns more than half its land into mountains... (thats why only one shade for me also, only 4 swamps post Blood Moon)

[Nastaboi]

Quote (rhox505 @ Dec. 02 2003,01:15)i think consultation is unneccessary since there is nothing really singly important.so i think its important to have lots of em.

There are several flaws in your logic. First, you say that Consult is unnecessary, because there is nothing really singly important... and you are running Vampiric? In a deck with only 4-ofs, Consult > D. Tutor >>> V. Tutor. What do you want to fetch with Vampiric then?

Quote (rhox505 @ Dec. 02 2003,01:15)shaman, moxmonkey, and blood are the three ways you are going to get control...

I can count only two ways (or maybe that was supposed to be a joke?).

Quote (rhox505 @ Dec. 02 2003,01:15)sol ring not necessary in this build because solid mana is important not total mana.

What does that mean? It DOES matter whether you have 30 or 24 mana sources in your deck. 26-27 is the way to go, including fast mana.

Quote (rhox505 @ Dec. 02 2003,01:15)EDIT - perhaps a burning wish maindeck

Is restricted.

Quote (rhox505 @ Dec. 02 2003,01:15)1 - as to the weaknesses, well, control could pose serious threat

And what was that? Suiside PWNS control. If this version sucks versus control, then why weaken good mathups of the deck by modifying it?

[to all]You play either Null Rod or Shaman according yor meta, not both. And you play four Shades no matter what. If you manage to get Blood Moon in play, you are already winning, so you can do it with a Mountain Goat if you want to. But if you don't get your Blood Moon, e.g. somebody might want to counter it or you may even not want to play it, then you have your good old Shade that pwns aggro AND control. And you play 15 critters and no Sinkholes, unless you like blowing up their mountains.

[Tijnie]

@Djogs
Well looking at the list there are some things that I think aint done that well.

4xHyppie, 4x duress, 3x hymn, 2x theraphy, 1x mind twist. Isn't that a little overkill on hand disruption? hyppie's aint really fast either just like mind twist.

3 Blood Moon, 4 sinkhole + wastes. Sinkhole's are nice. but 4 if you play Blood moons and strips is overkill. I love my Sinkhies but I feel like there's no room/need for them in this list. Looking at the mana base of my meta, they play very few basic's so blood moon will do fine. If I would play Sinkhole's I would play 2, just to destroy the last basic left (basic is hard to reach if they can't fetch  ) and make sure they'll have nothing but red mana.

your artifact hate. I see only 2 powder keg and thats it. I play 2 Monkeys and the great Null Rod. If you don't see that much powered decks, go for more monkey's since they are creature's and maybe keep the kegs if your meta is a real disaster   (play 3 monkey's 2 kegs or so.).

So you just have to remove some of the disruption. making slots for your creatures and mana base. gosh dude. 14 Black colored lands, 5 strips +lotus, Jet and petal is as low as you can go for Suicide, and in this version Sol Ring md is nice.

@Nastaboy.

About your Monkey+Null Rod, why NOT really. Monkey's are put in as mountain goats . the point is that you don't always draw a tutor of Null rod to make the artifacts disapear. And 4 Null Rod often means you will draw 2 or even 3   .

[BreathWeapon]

This deck was the second thing on my mind Dec 1st, that and trying to envision the T1 Meta come Jan 1st.

Bloodmoon.dec is going to have an incredibly viable position in the format, more so than when this thread was created. In the absence of Long, Bloodmoon is now Super Viable in the format.

With B/U/g and Spoils-Dragon being the Tier 1 combo decks, Bloodmoon is a MD house and 4xWithered Wretch MD is a must. Also now that Long is gone, Workshop decks will be differentiating significantly in its absence. Slavery.dec and Deadbolt.dec, Traditional and Neo-wMUD.dec can all be severely hated on with 4xRack and Ruin SB, MD Bloodmoons, and most importantly Null Rods.

Speaking of Null Rod, I can't begin to tell you how important Null Rod will be, come Jan 1st. Keeper decks will undoubtably ditch their 3 MD Chalices without Long to justify them and adapt a Chronic.dec structure to help combat Bloodmoon, which is a total SB and MD whore. In turn, this will open them up to Null Rod more so than ever before. Both Spoils Mask and Vengeur Mask will be in the Jan 1st environment, and Null Rod is some good vs them I hear.

So in short, any deck packing Bloodmoon, Null Rod and Withered Wretch MD will be a total house. Hypnotic Specter will remain a SB slots at best and Chalice of the Void should only be Sideboarded as Goblin/Stompy hate.

Also, with the decreasing value of Sinkhole in the presence of Bloodmoon, Lightning Bolt or Fire/Ice is a thought. Killing Metalworkers and Goblin Welders is some good I hear.

[pernicious dude]

Why do people keep saying that Blood Moon means cut the Sinkholes but still play five Strips?

As a Fish player, fearing Blood Moon, I used to get one Island down quick.
That's all I need to keep playing guys and Curiosity.
Many control decks run one or two basics, and they'll search them out first.

If Blood Moon hits, Sinkhole takes out their lone Island while they look for Blue Elemental Blast.
Your Wastelands are now useless Mountains,
which can't even pump your Shade.
I'd drop to a Strip and two Wastes,
but I'd prioritize the Sinks even higher than in a mono black build.

[Tijnie]

Quote (Tijnie @ Dec. 04 2003,08:28)If I would play Sinkhole's I would play 2, just to destroy the last basic left (basic is hard to reach if they can't fetch  ) and make sure they'll have nothing but red mana.

I said that, I know its strong but there has to be made a choice. or other dsruption or sinkhole's. I really would love to see 2 sinkhole's in the list but the point is there's nothing left to remove. I aint gonna cut a creature (MAYBE shaman) and I can't touch the mana or disruption.

Strips are needed to reach enough Mana for Negator and moons sometimes. If I would cut them I would have only +- 15 lands...  that would really suck.

[centroles]

Once someone has a teched out list that they tested, could they please post it here.